Training & Nutrition - Speed and using Big gears.

On the way into work tonight, I was passed by a Temecula Velo club member. For about a mile we rode together.. This Inland Velo racer watched my cycling style.. He commented why to you use such big gears. I know that is called 'mashing.'. I do mash the gears.. Iwelcome friendly advice. I always suspected I would be faster if I was determined to loose 10-15 pounds..
He is obviously a racer. I am not.. Think I am fairly strong however.. Upon parting, his comment was, if you spin in a lower gear, you will get stronger and as a result gain speed.
I just feel in the bigger gears, I am faster and in lower gears feel like I have wasted effort. Guess I am pretty strong, when you look at my muscle mass, if that is any indicator.
So will spinning with less resistance make you faster.? When I have attempted to race against others, for speed I have always thought I was moving faster in the big chain ring and second or third cog in . Again I feel I am pretty strong but not fast. Is today's advice what you would suggest.?

What cadence do you usually ride at? I have noticed that ~90 - 92rpm is perfect for myself. It took a few months of conscious effort to spin at 90rpm, then mash at 60 - 70.

I would have to agree with the racer, it is far more officiant to spin then mash. Give it a try :)

Better on the knees too !!

Originally posted by Joe Gardner
What cadence do you usually ride at? I have noticed that ~90 - 92rpm is perfect for myself. It took a few months of conscious effort to spin at 90rpm, than mash at 60 - 70.

I would have to agree with the racer, it is far more officiant to spin then mash. Give it a try :) How did you manage to "train" yourself to do this? I hate spinning fast. It feels like I'm a hamster lots of spinning but not getting anywhere. I feel that I "need" to push against resistance to get any kind of gain - speed or otherwise.

Originally posted by Raiyn
How did you manage to "train" yourself to do this? I hate spinning fast. It feels like I'm a hamster lots of spinning but not getting anywhere. I feel that I "need" to push against resistance to get any kind of gain - speed or otherwise.

I've heard of several ways to train yourself to spin at high cadences. One is to pedal with only one leg at 90-100 RPM alternating from leg to leg every minute. Another is to simply try to spin a light gear as fast as you can starting from around 95RPM until you start to bounce and then back off a little and try to maintain that cadence for a couple of minutes. Then drop back down to your normal cadence for 10 minutes or so and do it all over again. By doing this, you start to train and convert your slow-twitch muscles to fast-twitch which should allow you to feel more comfortable spinning at higher cadences.

I'm in the 'everybody is different' school of thought on this one. For some people it's beneficial to push a bigger cadence and smaller gears, and this is something I've been working on over the last couple of years (I have a really puny build, which probably limits my potential power output somewhat). I did notice when riding to work in 70km/h headwinds a month or so back, that spinning managed to get me to work on time without giving myself too much grief, so it might be the way to go.

The other advantage I've noticed about spinning is that you can be a lot more consistent if your going a long way into a headwind. It does put considerably less pressure on your muscles and joints, so you can probably sustain it for longer than 'mashing'.

However, I tend to go through phases. I'll be happy to spin in lower gears for a while, then I'll get frustrated with it and try to push the bigger gears for a while. I do not recommend doing this, it's just my pathetic lack of will power giving in to temptation. :cry:

cyclezealot,

well, it's kind of a complicted thing and i've read a lot of research and stuff...

there have been some studies that have shown that high-speed spinning is the most efficient and in theory should be the fastest. BUT, for some unexplained reasons, pro cyclists all spin a little more slowly than what these "optimizations" predict.

BUT, the pro cyclists do really spin much faster than most recreational cyclists and most have to "relearn" how to ride in their careers before they become REALLY successful.

from my understanding Lance Armstrong used to be a "big tough Texas gear-masher" and thought that the spinning guys were "wussy"... well, he relearned this a few years ago and i think few would argue with the success he has seen with it.

after finding out all this same info last year, i tried changing my style to spin more...

and i can say that i was pretty impressed with the improvements. i don't have any stats to quote or anything, and i really didn't do any REALLY high-rep spinning, but because i did mostly climbing (65,000 meters vertical and 10,000km in 2003) i increased my climbing cadence from something like 60-65 to maybe 90 or so... and then on the flats and downhills even faster.

i still sometimes stand and power-mash at slower cadences, but the majority of my riding i have increased my cadence by say 10rpms...

plus, it's also good for the knees which was my original motivation to try it.

but it takes some getting used to - you have to really train your muslces how to still generate a lot of power at the high cadence - spinning does not mean "easy" it just means fast! from my experience my speed dropped maybe a few days when first trying it out, then got right back to the same level and then increased a little --- you can also spin longer at the same power level as when you mash (as the research stuff above i was referring too, sorry i misplaced the links) -- basically your HR will be higher from spinning, but the muscle fatigue lower, and your cardio system can take longer load and recover faster than muscle tissue...

as i understand, what many road cyclists do is they ride the winter and/or spring on a fixed-gear so that they have to spin and their body gets used to "pedalling circles" which is very important for spinning (as opposed to the up and down of mashing). this trains the muscles and the body to spin and they then switch to the road bike and continue to spin... i already have 4 bikes and have thought about trying a fixie - either converting one or buying another - but i haven't done it yet... so i can't comment on how that works

i have kind of specialized in hill-climbing the last year or so and here the spinning ideas while not directly applicable i think have been a major help... and my hill-climbing has REALLY improved.

anyway, it's really complex, but i do recomment giving "spinning" a try: try to consciously increase your cadence even though it does "feel" slower especially at first.

For me, as a new rider, with pretty good leg strength, I find that, for longer endurance, I like to spin between 85-90 rpm. I never get into the big ring unless I am sprinting and desire to go above 21-22 mph. It's working pretty well so far, and I've found that when I am sprinting, I am still in the small ring for quite a while AFTER the others have shifted into thier big one. I am working on getting my cadence up a little. My short term goal is to keep my steady cadence just above 90.

My normal cadence is 90-95 rpm, but if I'm cruising along I'll drop to 70 or so.

I find if I make the determined effort not to go on my big ring (48) but instead spin the middle ring (38) I do my 13 mile commute in almost exactly the same time, but feel less pressure on my knees.

When I first read about spinning I just locked my front changer so that I couldn't change on to my outer ring, which meant I had to spin.

I taught my wife to spin because when touring she would be in high gears slow cadence and now she spins, finding it much less tiring.

Having said that, one of my friends is a randonneur (has done PBP) and he pushes v high gears at slow cadence (so much so that I can identify him hundreds of yards away- he has a "steam engine style")

Any idea what your cadence is?

My take is that you can go faster mashing a big gear, until your muscles fatigue. So, it's okay if distance is limited (TT specialists often push a big gear in TT events... I know, I know, Lance was spinning 120 rpm in the 1st TdF TT last year...). Spinning, you might give up some top end speed, but your legs will be around longer. Easy? Only if there's minimal resistance. If you really want to send your heart rate through the roof, find a reasonable hill, drop into what seems like a moderately easy gear at your normal climbing pace, than spin up the hill at, like, 90+ rpm. Dude, yer gonna hurt.

One way to get conditioned to spinning is just to ride in one gear lower than what seems normal, and try to keep your pace nearly the same.

This morning, being motivated by this thread, I spun my way to work, trying to maintain a cadence of about 90-100. It was a bit tiring on the hills, as two things are different. 1. I am spinning much faster. 2. I have a new bike with a much lower gearset than my old one. My muscles are very used to mashing up the big hills.

When I was chugging along, spinning at a nice clip, a guy from one of the local race teams rides by me, says hello. He was spinnging much fast than I was.. at least 120. It seemed as if he was training more on his spinning than anything else because he wasn't going horribly fast, rather just keeping in the low gears pedalling very fast.

I felt even more motivated by that (it's a sign right? The forums now this rider), so I picked up the cadence for a bit. That was work!! So backed off to my 90-100.

I don't like the bouncy feeling I get when I get too fast. I guess that smooths out over time as you develop technique.

Maybe I should get back on my rollers. (I hate those things). I know they helped my spinning out back when I used to use them.

I am one of those guys that like to spin around 110rpm. It gets the heart rate up, but my legs last a lot longer. I have been working at bringing my cadence down to 100 or so since I feel like I run out of lungs on longer rides (3+hours).

Bouncing when spinning is from your technique. Make sure you are rotating your hips as you spin faster. It takes some work to be able to spin faster, but nothing to bad. I personally found that spinning at 100 on the trainer is more like 110 on the road. That is seems to be part of the reason for me spinning so high. Anyone else notice that they spin 5-10rpm faster on the road than on the trainer (and are comfortable)?

My friend always says, 'you want to be a man, you have to mash the big meat.' Hehehe.

I realize I am not as fast as many I ride with, but I just have felt mashing the big gears does not tire me out; even though energy efficiency and all that makes sense..
Two things to become a better spinner, can't get over Fubar's comment that feels like we are hamsters on a wheel: and how do I get to the point where I am spinning.. Just does not come natural- feel I have to have some tourgue to accomplish. Hard to break habits...
And finally- You really want to beat someone and you are putting all the energy you have to move ahead- are you still spinning when you start your sprint?

I know when I sprint (if you can call it that) it is upwards of 100 or so. That is out of the saddle full effort.

I was watching a pro race on Saturday and the pros sprinting for the line looked like they were spinning around 120 or more. My friend and I were commenting on it and how neither of us think we could do that (right now).

Yesterday, I was drafting a UPS truck, I spun out my 52x12 gear at 48MPH. I didnt glance at my cadence at the time, but if my math is correct, thats 140rpm :)

Originally posted by Joe Gardner
Yesterday, I was drafting a UPS truck, I spun out my 52x12 gear at 48MPH. I didnt glance at my cadence at the time, but if my math is correct, thats 140rpm :)


Whoa !! Your're a freakin' animal !! I can't even get to 48mph going downhill

Joe is Da Man !

Jeff

Spin on the big ring, not the small one. That's the way to go.

What is the difference? In order to spin, you have to be close to the edge of that gear combo's speed max speed. You can't spin on the big ring going up a 10% hill, it just doesn't work.


On another note, on my ride home this evening, I remembered something a racing friend told me years ago about spinning. "In order to spin properly, it should feel like you are scraping dog scat off your shoe in the grass as you move your foot through the bottom of your rotation" So in otherwords, a nice pull at the bottom to the back of the bike. When I concentrate on doing this, my spinning get much smoother.

Originally posted by Sailguy
What is the difference? In order to spin, you have to be close to the edge of that gear combo's speed max speed. You can't spin on the big ring going up a 10% hill, it just doesn't work.


On another note, on my ride home this evening, I remembered something a racing friend told me years ago about spinning. "In order to spin properly, it should feel like you are scraping dog scat off your shoe in the grass as you move your foot through the bottom of your rotation" So in otherwords, a nice pull at the bottom to the back of the bike. When I concentrate on doing this, my spinning get much smoother.

I think we have to get something straight here when we compare the pro spinning to most folks. The pros spin on big gear on flats and rolling hills. I spin on big gear on a 5% short climb and speed up to 21 mph. 10%? Sure, you spin the small ring. On flats and rolling hills, you spin the big ring in order to ride FAST and get stronger. :)

On a day when I am just wanting to cruise with slightly hard effort I will spin on the 53/16 at about 85-90 rpm's on the flats. On short gradual climbs I may go as low as a 53/18. I run a 53/39 with a cassette of 12-21 which means on any serious climb I am going to have to use the small ring. But there are very few climbs around here that make me do this. I would rather stand and pound the bigger gear for a good quad workout if the climb is not too awful long.

On recovery rides I force myself to use a 39/17 for as much of the ride as possible and approach 100 rpm's.

I have found that spining is truly the best way to keep up a fast pace over a long ride however. When I push the bigger gears I will go faster but poop out after the first 30 miles. When I spin I can maintain good average speeds over a 60-80 mile ride and still feel good afterwards.

Originally posted by cyclezealot
...snip....
Two things to become a better spinner, can't get over Fubar's comment that feels like we are hamsters on a wheel: ..snip... Actually that was me.

Durace.. I have a triple chainring..Spinning should be one gear less than where you sense you are mashing the gears.
For those with triples, that would probably be on the top of the the middle Chainring on the flats?

Here is what worked for me when I brought my cadence from 90 to 105-110 (about 90 on hills until I run out of gears):

1) Choose your desired cadence and ride in it all the time. It takes discipline. You just have to force yourself. Having a cyclo-computer with a cadence feature, or a chart that matches your speed to your cadence for each gear is helpful.

2) Do "spin-speed intervals." Do a regular interval routine--I recommend 3-5 times 15 seconds with 15 seconds rest. In the interval, you shift way down and spin as fast as you can handle. Rest by just turning the pedals over slowly, you don't need to change gears. These are *not* power intervals, just spinning intervals. A slight downhill might help. Yes, you will be bouncing in the saddle at around 120-130. But, try to go well beyond that (at least 150).

Be patient. It will take about 800 km for the new cadence to feel right. I doubt you'll go back to mashing.

Cheers,
Jamie

A couple times this winter my gears froze up early and in a low gear. I was forced to go on spinning like a madman. I was surprised though. I was able to keep up with the group each time (except going down hill) and when we were done I was not too tired. That's what convinced me that a high cadence is a good thing.

Hey there, just look at the best cyclist in the world - Lance. His cadence is in the 95-100+ range. You have to train yourself to become more efficient at pedaling high cadences...anyone can mash big gears, but it's the ability to produce power at a high cadence that will set you apart from other riders.
Happy training!

When you're riding along, shift down a gear and try maintain the speed for a few minutes. Eventually you'll get used to this and be pedalling at a higher cadence, maybe ready to shift down another gear and pedal even faster. More efficient, better on the knees, less tiring, trains your cardio system, etc.

It's also a fun challenge to find your max cadence, which will make even 110 seem slow if you do it a few times a week. :-) I used to max out around 130, but now I can do 150 and even into the low 160s for a few seconds.

Good luck!
Mike

I am feelin' a lot of the mashers here- I was a big time masher.

I just decided about a 2 weeks ago to make the big switch over to spinning in the small gears. I did a lot of reading on the topic, and I decided that I could be more efficient and save more energy. It's a humbling experience for me right now- I am going so slow it's not funny, but I feel like every week, I can see a small improvement. I sometimes get the urge to throw on the big gears and mash it through, but I'm going to really commit myself to this, even if it takes me a full year. I've completely revamped my periodization program, and I'm hoping that by next spring, I'll be fast and efficient.

I keep finding motivation because I've been running into a lot of cyclists on the bike path who are spinning at 100+ rpms and they look like they're not even breaking a sweat! In the meantime, I'm at about 80 rpm, but hoping that I'll be at 100 by the end of the summer, and 120+ by next spring. I can be patient...

Koffee