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My LBS are trying to talk me out of a Cross Check - the weight weenies! I'm not looking for a high end racing bike, what I love about the Cross Check is that it's something I can use for everything - single track, cross, commuting, touring, even fixed gear. CC is my friend.
Is it really that heavy? Was it enough to put anyone else off going for this wonderful Surly? What did you get instead?
Other options I was looking at: Lemond Poprad, Planet X Kaffenback. Any comments?
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I looked into the same purchase recently and just ordered a cross check frame and fork for $303 from edina bike shop: http://edinabike.com/page.cfm?PageID=62&action=details&sku=FM0442
As far as a complete bike goes, I think the poprad is a better value. My LBS quoted me a price for a poprad about $1,100 for a 2006. compared to the complete cross check, the poprad has a better wheel set, brifters rather than barcons, and better components.
Lemond's tech department told me that the frame is 3.7# or about 1/2 pound lighter than the cross check. If you also throw in the fork, then the poprad is about 1 pound lighter than the cross check in total. However, IMHO, 1 pound difference is totally nothing in terms of speed or performance. 1 pound is a good dump or 2/3 of a water bottle.
There is a price for light weight and that is risk of failure. Does anyone remember George Hincapie's (spelling?) steerer tube breaking during Paris Rubaix? IMHO (again) light weight for a non-elite racer is a complete wast of time. All risk and no reward, and higher prices too. Get the bike you want and blow past someone on an ultralight racing machine with a smile on your face and a wallet full of money.
Mine is in the 18-19 pound range with Ultegra, XT and DurAce goodies. I also have a carbon post and a bar end shifter (single up front). I built a crosscheck so i could enjoy my bike year round. When the season is over I turn her into a touring rig and ride along the coast. It's a great cross frame and an awesome do all frame.
That said... I'm wanting a Vanilla something bad!
Do a search on the great Cross-Check and see if you can
find two posts saying anything bad about them.
The Swiss Army Knife of bicycles :D
As a former CrossX owner the weight is not that bad and
if you ride alot on bad roads and such it can actually be
of some benefit as far as comfort and stability goes.
A great bike.
I looked into the same purchase recently and just ordered a cross check frame and fork for $303 from edina bike shop: http://edinabike.com/page.cfm?PageID=62&action=details&sku=FM0442
As far as a complete bike goes, I think the poprad is a better value. My LBS quoted me a price for a poprad about $1,100 for a 2006. compared to the complete cross check, the poprad has a better wheel set, brifters rather than barcons, and better components.
Lemond's tech department told me that the frame is 3.7# or about 1/2 pound lighter than the cross check. If you also throw in the fork, then the poprad is about 1 pound lighter than the cross check in total. However, IMHO, 1 pound difference is totally nothing in terms of speed or performance. 1 pound is a good dump or 2/3 of a water bottle.
There is a price for light weight and that is risk of failure. Does anyone remember George Hincapie's (spelling?) steerer tube breaking during Paris Rubaix? IMHO (again) light weight for a non-elite racer is a complete wast of time. All risk and no reward, and higher prices too. Get the bike you want and blow past someone on an ultralight racing machine with a smile on your face and a wallet full of money.
+1
Tim
Being in Ireland I'm going to assume that the Cross Check will cost you a fair amount of money. How much does it cost? What other options is the LBS offering?
You might want to check out some of the frames frome Mercian or other British builders. They might be able to build you something like the Cross Check that is a lot higher quality for just a little bit more money.
http://www.merciancycles.com/
Tim (cs1): What does "+1" mean? do you have any pix of your waterfords? whish I could afford one.
^^ +1 basically means "I agree". In essence it reiterates your point.
Cross Checks are the Cadillac of cross bikes. They are very nice and you will be happy with it.
Even though I don't have one (out of my price range). I really liked the cross-check. My current bike is steel and as they say, steel is more forgiving. I rode an aluminum hybrid bike for a bit and my P.2 is aluminum as well. I like the way my steel bike feels.
Seeing as the Crosscheck is £300 this side of the pond, it isn't something i'd go for. For a little more money you could get Mercian/Witcomb/Whoever to build you a frame, in a better quality steel to your specific dimensions.
I was quoted 500 euros ($635 USD!) for a Cross Check (frame only) in my LBS. Built up with Tiagra, 850 euros, excluding wheels.
They were trying to talk me into a Kona "Jake the Snake". Holding the Jake... well, I've see heavier water bottles - empty! The comparison was to a Surly Steamroller, and they said the Cross Check was even heavier again than the Steamroller.
You guys are right though, every single thing I've read about the Cross Check has been positive. I'm going to ring that Edina Bike crowd and see if I can convince them to ship international.
Some of the other stuff they were suggesting - a complete Trek 520 (great bike) - 1,275 euros (1,619.43 USD), complete Ridgeback Element 800 euros (1,016.26 USD) (I've never heard of this one, but I like Ridgebacks, especially Velocitys). I asked them for a price on a built up Poprad.
For the record, my correspondance with Surly and Planet X... If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know :)
Surly first:
Have you any experience with 5'6-7 riders on the Crosscheck? Any pedal clearance problems on 700c wheels?
My other question is about the Surly 4130 cro-moly steel. I haven't
found much information on it online - do you have any links or
documentation? How does it compare with Reynolds 853 etc?
Thanks for your help
Hi Al,
Tubing: our tubing is the same diameter and wall thickness as Reynolds
631. Ours is not air hardened, but this does not affect ride quality at
all, only the general 'toughness' of the metal, or resistance to dents.
However, this tubing is thick enough not to warrant such a feature; an
853 tubeset would benefit because it is much thinner-walled. In fact,
we used 631 on our original frames and had problems with availability,
price, and material strength. When we switched to our own tubing, tube
related warranty claims completely disappeared. Our tubing is better
than name brand tubes of the same dimensions and alloy.
Toe overlap: this skirts on the sizing issue, so it's a good starting
place for size discussion.
My guess is yes, you will have a certain amount of T.O. There are
design limitations that make T.O. more of a problem on any smaller frame
that uses larger wheels, limits that simply cannot be avoided. You
can't make the bike too long or add too much rake to the fork because it
will not fit or handle well. Also, there are a lot of other issues that
go into determining T.O.: foot size, foot placement on the pedal (using
platforms vs. clipless for example), tire size, fenders, and crank arm
length all make a big difference in how much T.O. any person
experiences. My personal opinion about T.O. is that although annoying,
it is almost never dangerous. First, your foot and wheel have to be in
the right position, and steering angle while riding is usually shallower
than the T.O. angle. Also, most riders choose some sort of freewheeling
drivetrain, which means you can stop your feet momentarily if you really
need to. The only time I have ever found T.O. to be both unavoidable
and potentially problematic is riding fixed gear offroad. And even so,
I have never crashed or even come close, at least due to T.O. That
said, I'd like to reiterate that T.O. will be more pronounced on smaller
frames using larger wheels.
Size: there are 3 main things that are true or any sizing theory.
>Effective top tube length. Not true TT, but effective, sometimes
called virtual TT (see attachment). Compare the ETT of a bike or two
you find comfy to the the specs of same for the Crosscheck. This will
give you a good idea which size is closest to that you already find
comfy.
>Standover height. Know your true pubic bone height (crotch to floor in
socks). This is the minimum clearance you need to be able to stand over
the frame, and is listed in our specs also. Use in conjunction with
ETT.
>Personal preferrence. There are a lot of things that make a person
feel the fit is right or not, and this is not an absolute. I prefer
longer top tubes, for instance. Think about wat position feels most
comfy to you. If you like to be stretched out, perhaps a larger frame.
Keep in mind that component choice plays a big role in this. Pick the
closest frame size and change the stem or bar if necessary.
Hope all this helps
Planet X, re: Kaffenback.
It was suggested that I investigate the Kaffenback, particularly your "Budget Build"! Is this still available?
I'm looking for something with a Tiagra or better set (depending on budget), steel frame with rack eyelets, strong > wheels (I'm 15 stone) My budget is about 800 euro (negotiatable).
I am 5'7 short, 29" inseam, heavy upper body (front row rugby player) so I'd be looking at the smaller end of the range.
So let me know what you think, if you have any suitable frames in stock, and if I can't afford the built up I'll consider frame on it's own.
Cheers
Due to product availability, we're not doing super-budget stuff right
now.
We're onto 105 10spd now, and we're looking at £699 built up with a
spec like this:-
Kaffenback frame
Kaffenback fork
6061 planet x 42cm bar
Anti Gravity seatpost
Seatclamp
Planet X 2 bolt stem (110, 120, 130mm)
Selle Italia Initiale Saddle
105 10spd cassette
105 10spd chain
105 10spd front mech and 31.8mm clamp.
105 10spd rear mech
105 10spd STi shifter/brake lever with brake and gear cables
105 10spd crankset
on-one retro cross canti's or tektro mini v's
Xero wheelset
Conti Top Touring tyres
Get the bike you want and blow past someone on an ultralight racing machine with a smile on your face and a wallet full of money.
That wallet full of money might slow you down a lot!
And the aerodynamics of a pocket full of green doesn't bare thinking about!
I recently discovered the thrill of riding ATV trails on my fixed Cross-Check. She now sports big old 700x42 IRC knobbies
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fixedtyphoon/sets/72157594288056971/
I've got another Check set up for touring. Next spring I'm pretty sure I'll build another one, targetting a old fat fart cyclo-cross look
dobber, what kind of handlebars are those? can you ride on the brake hoods comfortably?
I was quoted 500 euros ($635 USD!) for a Cross Check (frame only) in my LBS. Built up with Tiagra, 850 euros, excluding wheels.
They were trying to talk me into a Kona "Jake the Snake". Holding the Jake... well, I've see heavier water bottles - empty! The comparison was to a Surly Steamroller, and they said the Cross Check was even heavier again than the Steamroller.
You guys are right though, every single thing I've read about the Cross Check has been positive. I'm going to ring that Edina Bike crowd and see if I can convince them to ship international.
Some of the other stuff they were suggesting - a complete Trek 520 (great bike) - 1,275 euros (1,619.43 USD), complete Ridgeback Element 800 euros (1,016.26 USD) (I've never heard of this one, but I like Ridgebacks, especially Velocitys). I asked them for a price on a built up Poprad.
Damn, that's pricey! I picked up a Long Haul Trucker from this place in Germany for a lot less. Their Cross Check, after shipping, will be 100 euro less than your store. That's a huge amount. http://www.bike-components.de/catalog/Surly/Cross+Check+Rahmen?osCsid=dc5d1673d4f2a9d3c90bdd603ce7eea8
At my shop, we will build you a NICE Crosscheck for around $1000. Picking your parts wisely its not hard. Truvativ components combined with a Shimano barcon driven drivetrain equates to a very nice bike at an affordable price. Figure the frame weighs less than 1lbs more than a Poprad. You're talking miniscule weight differences and a much more versatile bike. The quality is fantastic as well. Very nicely finished frame, albeit basic.
Bikes are stupid expensive in this country :(
Seely, I've sent on a PM, see what your LBS can do for me. Are you on commission? :)
dobber, what kind of handlebars are those? can you ride on the brake hoods comfortably?
On-One Midge bars, and yes I ride the hoods quite comfortably. My hands rest more on the outboard side of the hoods, which I find gives me better support.
You'll note that I have the bars mounted quite high.
1. Because I just do't bend like I use to
B. All I've read about the Midges suggest the higher mounting as it better facilitates getting into the drops
Do a search on the great Cross-Check and see if you can
find two posts saying anything bad about them.
The Swiss Army Knife of bicycles :D
As a former CrossX owner the weight is not that bad and
if you ride alot on bad roads and such it can actually be
of some benefit as far as comfort and stability goes.
A great bike.
I commute (but don't race) on a cross check. As to commuting, the cross check has the braze-on's needed for a rack and saddle bags. At some of the racing cyclocross bikes don't have those. That puts the cross check well above the others for commuting purposes. As to racing, I'll leave that to people who have actually raced.
Bikes are stupid expensive in this country :(
Seely, I've sent on a PM, see what your LBS can do for me. Are you on commission? :)
Once you pay shipping and customs your $1000 Cross Check will end up being a $1600 Cross Check. Seriously, check the link I gave you, they are the cheapest prices in Europe.
Bikes are stupid expensive in this country :(
Umm, wrong!. Like I said get a custom builder to build a frame for you. Magnitudes better than a Crosscheck and magnitudes cheaper by the looks of it. Don't let English artisans fall by the wayside for the sake of some everyman bike.
highly: I'll give one a call tomorrow, you're right, I shouldn't leave the option unexplored.
Honestly I didn't see any prices on the few sites I had a look at, and from experience, no list price usually == very expensive.
When i was shopping for a cyclocross bike to ACTUALLY use for cyclocross (*gasp!*) my decision came down to the Cross Check or the LeMond Poprad. I ultimately decided on the Poprad primarily for the (perceived) better quality of the materials and components-- 105 and Bontrager component mix, True Temper Platinum OX tubing and US fabricated frame.
As for weight, one of the guys at Surly (such nice folks) let me know that the "Cross Check complete" weighs in at 25.4 lbs for a 52cm frame with their Tiagra spec.
Not too bad. My aluminum Cannondale F700 weighs in at about 25lbs.
However, the Poprad has been criticised for weighing about 21.5lbs! Whatever-- there's just no pleasing magazine editors.
That said, if you're going to be lifting a bike "suitcase-style" over barriers at a full run, a few pounds might make a difference by lap 5 or six. :)
But weight was low on my list of priorities. You see how the weight drops quickly with better quality components.
Oh-- and as for the "brifters" somehow being better than bar-end shifters... whatever. Bar-ends plus aero brake levers are lighter and simpler and cheaper than brifters. But slightly less convenient to use. When by 105 brifters succumb to cold, rain and mud i'll replace them with aero levers and bar-ends. And use the money i saved on booze.
On-One Midge bars, and yes I ride the hoods quite comfortably. My hands rest more on the outboard side of the hoods, which I find gives me better support.
You'll note that I have the bars mounted quite high.
1. Because I just do't bend like I use to
B. All I've read about the Midges suggest the higher mounting as it better facilitates getting into the drops
Dobber-- i run Midge bars too. Best thing since... sliced bread, i suppose! :) Is that Salsa stem the 40-degree rise? I recently decided that i neede more height and got the 15-degree. I'm not sure that it was enough.
And yeah-- higher mounting for Midges is better. When riding off-road (or in traffic) i'm in the drops all the time. Better control and it just feels more "secure" there as opposed to riding on the hoods of the levers.
Yeah, thats the Salsa 130 stem. I had the 105 stem on it with a set of Nitto Randoneur bars, swapped to the 130 when I put the Midges on, really made a big difference with them, I love getting down in the drops now.
I was worried about weight with the Crosscheck--not for speed issues, but because of back problems. I researched the issues as much as I could. I came down to the conclusion that the Surly was maybe a pound heavier than most comparable bikes. I could save 2-3 pounds by going with a Titanium-framed Moots. It wasn't worth money even after two serious back surgeries. I was careful about weight but not crazy. My bike weighs just under 25lbs without rack and my new Brooks. You could easily save a pound or so with lighter components. Unless speed is you main consideration, I think the Crosscheck's versatility wins over the extra weight.
I looked into the same purchase recently and just ordered a cross check frame and fork for $303 from edina bike shop: http://edinabike.com/page.cfm?PageID=62&action=details&sku=FM0442
d'oh! i got one a few weeks ago from universalcycles for $390
d'oh! i got one a few weeks ago from universalcycles for $390
Haha - don't worry about it. Frame alone here costs me $600 from the shop, $450 is the best mail order.
Self built Surly CC frame, 105 groupset, all components including wheelset components, plus tools to build it all up: eur 1,614.63 (2,063.10 USD)
Self built Surly CC frame, Tiagra groupset, pre-built wheels, all other components plus Park Tools Work Stand: eur 1,281.60 (1,636.80 USD)
LBS built Surly CC frame, Tiagra groupset, pre-built wheels (estimate), all other components but no tools: eur 1,050.00 (1,341.64 USD)
See my thread on the general forum (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=231051) or my budget spreadsheet here (http://amdsoft.com/surlyccbuild.html)... enough to make you weep!
I just got an 05 cross check from edinabike.com. It is steel so I treated it with Weigle's frame saver. When I told a cycling friend of mine, she was shocked I would add the extra weight. Come on! I don't know about you, but if I was that concerned about weight I'd drop a few pounds from my waist. It's much cheaper and doesn't compromise the durability of my bicycle. Unless you're an accomplished, professional cyclist, 1 or 2 pounds won't make a bit of difference in the big picture! Just my 2 cents.
After you blow past her on your heavy bike, tell her, "just imagine how fast I'd be on a a lighter bike."
come on! you guys that don't think a pound or two will make any difference have not ridden a lightweight bike. I was talking to a guy that is really into touring. I think it's great that he enjoys riding around with 40 pounds of stuff on his 30 pound bike. But for him to say that there was not much difference between a touring bike and a racing bike is like saying there is not much difference between a mini van and ferrari. I mean, yes both bikes have two wheels, handlebars and a seat, but that's about it.
and to use 4130 tubing for a quality frame? why not just use 531 tubing? come on this is 2006... not 1976. even back in the day, 4130 tubing got no respect. if you want steel, at least get something in 853
Would I be a quicker on an 19 lb bike, sure. But that assumes that speed is my highest value--and it isn't. It is possible to get a substantially lighter bike as versatile and durable as a Crosscheck, but it would be hard to find and a lot more expensive.
come on! you guys that don't think a pound or two will make any difference have not ridden a lightweight bike. I was talking to a guy that is really into touring. I think it's great that he enjoys riding around with 40 pounds of stuff on his 30 pound bike. But for him to say that there was not much difference between a touring bike and a racing bike is like saying there is not much difference between a mini van and ferrari. I mean, yes both bikes have two wheels, handlebars and a seat, but that's about it.
and to use 4130 tubing for a quality frame? why not just use 531 tubing? come on this is 2006... not 1976. even back in the day, 4130 tubing got no respect. if you want steel, at least get something in 853
but what kind of engine is in the mini van? and the ferrari?
the touring example is extreme.
170 pound rider + 24 pound bike = 194 pounds
170 pound rider + 20 pound bike = 190 pounds
170 pound rider + 30 pounds of gear + 40 pound bike = 240 pounds (that's a difference!)
the heavier combo is 1.021x greater than the lighter.
difference in bike weight is only .02% of the total package.
you are talking "a pound or two". your weight will fluctuate that much depending on hydration and if you ate a dozen or only a half dozen donuts that morning.
but what kind of engine is in the mini van? and the ferrari?
the touring example is extreme.
170 pound rider + 24 pound bike = 194 pounds
170 pound rider + 20 pound bike = 190 pounds
170 pound rider + 30 pounds of gear + 40 pound bike = 240 pounds (that's a difference!)
the heavier combo is 1.021x greater than the lighter.
difference in bike weight is only .02% of the total package.
you are talking "a pound or two". your weight will fluctuate that much depending on hydration and if you ate a dozen or only a half dozen donuts that morning.
+1. The difference between a "light" aluminum frame and a "heavy" steel frame is about 1/3 to 1 pound total. There is very little chance that this difference will be noticed. to test this theory, have your friend fill two water bottles: one completely full (24 ounces) and one with 8 ounces (a third of the bottle left). Have the friend randomly chose a bottle and put it in your cage. Ride the bike and see if you can tell which bottle you have. There is a 50/50 chance that you will guess correctly. But if you repeat it enough, I bet your chances of correctly identifying the "light" from the "heavy" bike would be the same as if you just guessed without riding it.
The other thing that doesn't generally get mentioned is the risk of a bike so light that it is pushing the fatigue limit of the materials. Racers push the limits because they are part daredevil. Did anyone see George Hincapie's steerer tube snap without warning? In addition to costing 5 or 10 times as much, light has the additional cost of risk of failure.
Umm, wrong!. Like I said get a custom builder to build a frame for you. Magnitudes better than a Crosscheck and magnitudes cheaper by the looks of it. Don't let English artisans fall by the wayside for the sake of some everyman bike.
i wholehartedly second this statement.
The other thing that doesn't generally get mentioned is the risk of a bike so light that it is pushing the fatigue limit of the materials. Racers push the limits because they are part daredevil. Did anyone see George Hincapie's steerer tube snap without warning? In addition to costing 5 or 10 times as much, light has the additional cost of risk of failure.
come on, how many of you would ride a bike after a crash like the one george took earlier that day? when bikes crash, bikes break...even steel ones. george should have gotten a new bike after that crash. if he didn't at the time, the team car should have drove ahead and had a bike waiting for him.
as for touring, I don't know about you, but most of the time, I don't have my bike loaded for touring. I'm not a weight weenie, but I do enjoy a light bike. I have 3 road bikes, a cross bike and a fixie. All my bikes are fun to ride and yes I do notice a difference of a few pounds. 2 pounds is alot! All you guys that don't think so has not ridden with a much of guys (and a few gals) for 40 miles and and then climb 2,000 feet.
I have a steel bike that I ride for short training rides, no problem riding and climbing hard for an hour at lunch. but at that club ride on sat, give me the full carbon bike that weights 16.5 pounds (or less) any day. but this is a cyclocross thread...I just built up a cyclocross bike for a friend, the frame is made of scandium and the full bike weighs about half a pound more than my carbon road bike!
but if you're in the uk and will end up paying a ton for a surly, come on, find a local builder and have him fit you up with some nice 853. really, who else uses 4130 tubing?
I'll grant that it is more likely one could tell the difference between a 15 pound bike and a 25 pound bike, but the difference of 1/2 a pound could never be felt, even by an elite racer. Ever see a racer pick up from their cage a bottle that is almost empty then chuck it and grab the other? If they could feel weight, they would know that their 1.5 pound bottle was empty.
The only advantage to using 853 over plain 4130 is that you can use less material to achieve the same net strength. Stifness and density, on the other hand, is the same with both materials.
start with 4130 tubing and you get a 4.8 pound bike. my ritchey weighs 3.8 pounds. thats a full pound right out of the gate. think about it, in a cross race, you go hard for an hour. a 21 or 22 pound bike is not big deal the first three or four laps, but after 40 minutes of going hard and lifting the bike over the jumps, you're going to wish you had the lightest bike you can buy.
The OP wrote: "what I love about the Cross Check is that it's something I can use for everything - single track, cross, commuting, touring, even fixed gear. CC is my friend.
Is it really that heavy? Was it enough to put anyone else off going for this wonderful Surly? What did you get instead?"
I have a CrossCheck. A few extra pounds on a bike doesn't worry me. Not when I've got way more of them around my waist.
I love the versatility of my bean green CrossCheck. Commuting, touring, single speed, fenders, fat tires,
it's all good.
Were I to race 'cross and had more money, I might consider another bike. But I don't so I got the CrossCheck. Great value and great usability.
come on, how many of you would ride a bike after a crash like the one george took earlier that day? when bikes crash, bikes break...even steel ones. george should have gotten a new bike after that crash. if he didn't at the time, the team car should have drove ahead and had a bike waiting for him.
George was getting a new bike at the end of the cobble stretch his bike broke on.... Bummer luck, huh?
Just put a crosscheck on order today myself. Hopefully I'll have it rolling soon so I can break it in and start racing cross. Woooo!!
are there any alternatives to the crosscheck that match it versatility wise? besides custom of course
are there any alternatives to the crosscheck that match it versatility wise? besides custom of course
I checked out the Gunnar at my LBS. It looked like a better racer than the Surly, but it didn't have the brazeons I would need for commuting. I don't remember if it had the clearance for 35 studded tires under fenders (like my Surly has).
But, as I said about a month ago, if you want a light weight racer and have the cash to pay for it, the Surly is probably not for you. The extra pound or two (or three) would make a difference on the race track. The Surly's braze ons and fat tire capability make the difference on my commute.
I think the On One Il Pompino would be similar to the cross check versatility wise, or an Iro Jamie Roy.
I think the On One Il Pompino would be similar to the cross check versatility wise, or an Iro Jamie Roy.
good suggestions, but those are single speed/fixed only aren't they?
The SOMA Fab Double Cross seems like a viable alternative to the CrossCheck.
Doesn't have horizontal dropouts, though.
http://www.somafab.com/frames.html
Weight DOES MATTER -
Deal With It
Weight DOES MATTER -
Deal With It
Yes.
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