Advocacy & Safety - Logging trucks, one bike, and a twelve foot shoulder.

here's a textbook lane positioning scenario right out of last weekend. without divulging the bicyclists demise or other particulars, i'd like to discuss riding positions on well accomodated roadways as described in this CASE STUDY

See photo below- actual roadway described


Highway speed, rural, two lane road with 12 foot shoulders. high amounts of logging truck and commercial large vehicle traffic. curves, hilly, rolling terrain. sun is low in the sky. The shoulder is swept as clean as the main travel lane.

A bicyclist is riding in one direction on the road. they are travelling 8 MPH on the uphills and 20-35 MPH on the downhills.

Truck traffic is passing frequently in both directions. two trucks appear to be closing from a considerable distance on the bicyclist at the same rate. where does the cyclist ride to maximize safety? does the bicyclist need to ascertain the trucks notice them by slowing noticably in the bicyclists rear view mirror? what does a bicyclist do if there is traffic spaced 40 seconds apart on this road and the bicyclist is travelling 8 miles per hour? if the traffic is 2 minutes apart? 15 seconds?


without any upcoming traffic hazards or driveways, is there any justifiable reason to take the lane to prevent a driver from drifting into the twelve foot shoulder?

would a bicyclists' visibility help to provide cognitive awareness more so than lane position on this road, to allow the drivers of the trucks near certain recognition of a bicyclist regardless of road position?

On a straight road where visibility is far, I'd stay in the shoulder. On curving roads with blind corners, I'd take the lane, even close enough to the double yellow lines, so as to be seen from a distance. If you hug the shoulder around a bend, motorists won't see you. And I've seen a lot of motorists cut corners on the bends - i.e. drive right where a bicyclist would be.

But on uphills where I'm huffing along at 5 mph, I hug the shoulder as far right as I can and pray. :o Prior to hitting a bend, I make sure there's no vehicles behind me that could overtake me in the time it takes to go around. If there is, I signal that I'm moving left. If the motorists respond by driving more to the left, I'll go. If not, I'll stop and wait until they pass, then jam around the bend.

On a straight road where visibility is far, I'd stay in the shoulder. On curving roads with blind corners, I'd take the lane, even close enough to the double yellow lines, so as to be seen from a distance. If you hug the shoulder around a bend, motorists won't see you. And I've seen a lot of motorists cut corners on the bends - i.e. drive right where a bicyclist would be.And I've seen motorists cross the double yellow lines. I'd never ride there or anywhere else in the lane on a blind curve.

Just me, but I would get as far over as I could, then take a look back to make sure there's nobody coming into the shoulder to avoid the trucks. I'd have been on the shoulder all along, though.

And I've seen motorists cross the double yellow lines. I'd never ride there or anywhere else in the lane on a blind curve.
I want to remain visible to the motorists behind me for as long as possible before disappearing behind the bend at which point I'll move over to the right of the shoulder.

Besides, you don't know what is on the shoulder behind the bend. You could end up riding right into some debris, stalled car, etc.

I'm not clear on whether the two trucks are both coming from behind, or if one's coming from behind and the other's coming head-on.

Truckers in my area aren't drift-prone, so whether they see me or not, they'll pass me safely if I'm on the shoulder. Trying to play mind games with them by getting out into their lane will make me into a damn nuisance, and cause them to waste fuel by dropping speed and then having to accelerate again, and/or possibly attempting a full lane-change passing maneuver, when it turns out that HAHA SIKE, I was planning to move onto that nice perfectly-good shoulder after getting a reaction out of them. Sorry... homie don't play dat game.

My advice for riding that road would be to use at least one daytime-visible superblinkie, at least one daytime-visible headlight if practical, and a bright white or neon-lime outer layer. Stay on the right half of the shoulder consistently, so the truckers in particular can see as they approach that the cyclist is predictable, and not in any danger from their truck since the cyclist's line is well clear of the truck.

Me personally, you know by now what I'd be using here ;) The Nova, backed up by a SuperFlash or two, plus my kewl ANSI Class III neon-lime vest. And I'd be using the right half of the shoulder. Would it provide more "cognition power" than lane position? Heck yeah :)

I want to remain visible to the motorists behind me for as long as possible before disappearing behind the bend at which point I'll move over to the right of the shoulder.

Besides, you don't know what is on the shoulder behind the bend. You could end up riding right into some debris, stalled car, etc.Or a car hitting you head on if you're in the lane.

roads graded and engineered for highway speed travel with twelve foot shoulders usually have no 'blind curves' that a bicyclist cannot see safely around. Maybe at 50 miles per hour? naw, even then.

I was considering the trucks as approaching from opposite directions, Mechbgon, but i like your variation in the case study a valuable point-

i find, on highways you usually cannot see behind a semi in your bicycling rear view mirror at any distance and see what is behind the first truck- a semi behind another semi from a distance looks like an edge out of salvador dali painting or picasso's cubist period -just an edge abberancy.

but i like the variation on the case study- what if a series of semis were approaching from the same direction?what if there were a couple of trucks coming at the bicyclist from both directions?

roads graded and engineered for highway speed travel with twelve foot shoulders usually have no 'blind curves' that a bicyclist cannot see safely around.
Well in that case, I'd always stay in the shoulder.

There is no way I would not be riding on the shoulder on that road. It's gorgeous, and you have it all to yourself. It's wider, smoother and cleaner than almost any street I ever ride on.

but i like the variation on the case study- what if a series of semis were approaching from the same direction? what if there were a couple of trucks coming at the bicyclist from both directions?My answers would be boring and short. In either case, I'd recommend going up the righthand side of the shoulder, checking one's mirror periodically, and mostly enjoying the ride and that lovely scenery :beer: (and consuming snacks!)

Remarks In the scenario where the truckers are both overtaking a cyclist, put yourself in the driver's seat of the rear truck. What position on the roadway will make the cyclist visible the soonest, on the road in this photo? The one that's furthest to the right, since the second truck's driver can't see directly up the road because of the truck in front of him.

In the scenario where the trucks are going opposite directions and will intercept eachother in the immediate vincinity of the cyclist, I'd advise the cyclist to move to the rightmost edge of the shoulder if he/she recognizes that the situation is developing, and do so well in advance if possible. If there's enough time that the truckers can become confident the cyclist is going to hold that line, they'll undoubtedly breathe a bit easier when they pass, feeling some assurance that the cyclist has a decent safety buffer, even if they can't move across the centerline to provide more room themselves (since they're coming head-on at another truck).

Maybe it sounds strange to worry about easing the anxieties of pro truckers, but they've treated me well :) Name anyone else who's thoughtful enough to dim their high-beam headlights when overtaking a cyclist with a 0.6W Union generator taillight in the middle of pitch-dark countryside (that was me in my younger days). You'd think they considered me a fellow human or something :D

I frequently ride on roads such as the one in the example with a mix of logging trucks and large double and single dump trucks. I ride on the shoulder near the right edge. For the most part, truckers give me way more room than I need. In addition to watching the truck approaching from behind in your mirror, it is also a good idea to listen for a broken belly chain dragging on the ground or the rhythmic thumping of a re-tread about to depart from the tire. Either of these noises is cause for a little extra caution.

For the road shown, ride the shoulder if there are log trucks. People, even it cars, do not realize how much load these trucks haul. They cannot stop quickly, cannot swerve to avoid a cyclist, and sometimes cannot pass. Don't put them in a bind by riding in the roadway, as they may not have a choice in where they drive.

On uphills, many of these roads in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest have curves. Log trucks can be very long, and can cut across the shoulders on hard right turns. Be aware of this, and be prepared to bail if you see one coming up behind you with a tight curve ahead to the right.

If the roadway is one-lane (yes, we have those, and they are called "logging roads," but many cyclists use mountain bikes on them), be aware that on a downhill, a fully-loaded log truck simply cannot stop within about a quarter mile of initiating the breaking and maintain control. Look up the roadway, and see if you can see a dust cloud on the road--that is a log truck headed your direction. Look as far up as you can, and if you see one, get off the road, preferably on the inside of any curve. If the truck looses control, it will go on the outside of the curve (and maybe over the edge--that has happened.

John

That picture looks like a large percentage of the major thru-ways in VT.
Why would you not take advantage of it ? The only trucks that give me
problems are the ones who do it intentionaly so why would I give them a
better target by being further out on the road ? As J. Ratliff says above,
a lot of these trucks cant avoid you for various reasons. A lot of them
are dangerously under maintained and in disrepair. I would guarantee that
if it came to sideswiping an oncoming car or clipping a bicyclist who was taking
the lane, the bicyclist would be the one who suffers the truck assault. Why
would you invite this situation when there is a clearly more reasonable and rational
way to be riding that stretch of road ?

Shoulder, staying to the right of center as much as possible.

As a truck driver, all of you show good instincts about trucks. For all their height, the visability out the windows is pretty miserable. They rattle and shake so much that the mirrors are sometimes almost useless, especially in the rain or darkness. Dawn and dusk are the worst times for visability. Here in the Pacific NW, rain and spray can cut down reaction time significantly.

When I ride, I stay over to the right unless taking the lane at intersections. I wear ANSI lime, use flashers and pray when having to zip around those trouble spots. My fenders are taped reflective yellow and so is my helmet. My winter gloves have reflective strips on the back side for hand signals. I still got clipped but it wasn't a truck, it was a gabbing girl in a Jetta. Hit and run, too.

99.9% of the time I get all the respect I need and ask for no more.

I frequently ride on roads such as the one in the example with a mix of logging trucks and large double and single dump trucks. I ride on the shoulder near the right edge. For the most part, truckers give me way more room than I need. In addition to watching the truck approaching from behind in your mirror, it is also a good idea to listen for a broken belly chain dragging on the ground or the rhythmic thumping of a re-tread about to depart from the tire. Either of these noises is cause for a little extra caution.

I have the same conditions here, Your suggestion about the broken chain is a good one. I've seen them whipping wildly from side to side. If I hear that sound its time to bail. I'll add that all chains can't be heard some are just a few inches from the ground and can swing out as far as 5' or more depending on where it broke.

As a truck driver, all of you show good instincts about trucks. For all their height, the visability out the windows is pretty miserable. They rattle and shake so much that the mirrors are sometimes almost useless, especially in the rain or darkness. Dawn and dusk are the worst times for visability. Here in the Pacific NW, rain and spray can cut down reaction time significantly.

When I ride, I stay over to the right unless taking the lane at intersections. I wear ANSI lime, use flashers and pray when having to zip around those trouble spots. My fenders are taped reflective yellow and so is my helmet. My winter gloves have reflective strips on the back side for hand signals. I still got clipped but it wasn't a truck, it was a gabbing girl in a Jetta. Hit and run, too.

99.9% of the time I get all the respect I need and ask for no more.jcm, to get this right from an actual truck driver... if a truck driver came around the corner onto this straightstretch and saw a cyclist dead-center in the traffic lane about 1000-2000 feet ahead, and the cyclist was holding that line, how would the driver's decision-making process go, what would the mental walkthrough be?

I've been figuring that with a long stopping distance, limited acceleration, a very long vehicle to pass with, and his job on the line, the truck driver is going to be at a "commitment point" when he's still quite a ways back. Either commit to a pass, or else begin to slow down to bike speed if it's not definitely safe to pass in the left lane (as with that corner ahead in the picture), since there's no way of knowing for certain what the cyclist might do.

Am I warm? Would the driver be annoyed at the cyclist if, after being put through this scenario, the cyclist then pulled onto the shoulder when the truck was 5 seconds away?

I see no reason to take the lane in such a situation, no matter which direction the trucks were coming from. Unless there was a hazard to avoid, I'd be staying right of center on the shoulder just about all the time. Why wouldn't I? I'd also be wearing some kind of ANSI color/reflective something from the safety supply store and most likely be running a verbatim checklist of lighting from one of you experienced lighting gurus.

I don't have a lot of practical cycling experience on roads like these. To be honest, I can see myself just pulling off to the right edge of the shoulder at first if a long line of trucks went by. That would allow me time to observe and process. I've got a little bit of hearing damage and I also have to keep my ears covered while riding. Some of the cues about a situation others would hear, I don't pick up on right away. Makes me extra cautious in unfamiliar territory.

jcm, to get this right from an actual truck driver... if a truck driver came around the corner onto this straightstretch and saw a cyclist dead-center in the traffic lane about 1000-2000 feet ahead, and the cyclist was holding that line, how would the driver's decision-making process go, what would the mental walkthrough be?

I've been figuring that with a long stopping distance, limited acceleration, a very long vehicle to pass with, and his job on the line, the truck driver is going to be at a "commitment point" when he's still quite a ways back. Either commit to a pass, or else begin to slow down to bike speed if it's not definitely safe to pass in the left lane (as with that corner ahead in the picture), since there's no way of knowing for certain what the cyclist might do.

Am I warm? Would the driver be annoyed at the cyclist if, after being put through this scenario, the cyclist then pulled onto the shoulder when the truck was 5 seconds away?
I am having a hard time seeing me coming around a blind curve at 60mph.

That said, as a truck driver I can tell you that scenario could be unpleasant.

If I were to come around a corner at 60mph with a load, and see a bicycle in the center of the lane 1000ft away,
First I **** my pants
Now I am down to 800 ft
Next I apply brakes.
Then I ask myself, is this a drunk
Now I am down to 700 ft
Will he fall in the middle of the road?
Is that really a bike?
Now I am down 600 ft
I wonder if it’s a Carbon fiber frame
Apply more brakes
I wonder if he has DA or Campy
Now I get out a calculator and determine that I need at least 300 feet to stop
Check my mirrors
I wonder what kinda wheels he has
By now I figure I am down to 500 ft
If he still hasn’t moved I start looking for my emergency rout to keep from hitting him if I cant slow down fast enough.

Now if I had 2000ft things change.
I just lift of the pedal and begin to slow down and see what he will do next.
And check out his wheels as I go by.

Yup, definitly take the shoulder.
When i was on tour this summer a road like that meant the day was going be a good one.

here's a textbook lane positioning scenario right out of last weekend. without divulging the bicyclists demise or other particulars, i'd like to discuss riding positions on well accomodated roadways as described in this CASE STUDY

See photo below- actual roadway described


Highway speed, rural, two lane road with 12 foot shoulders. high amounts of logging truck and commercial large vehicle traffic. curves, hilly, rolling terrain. sun is low in the sky. The shoulder is swept as clean as the main travel lane.

A bicyclist is riding in one direction on the road. they are travelling 8 MPH on the uphills and 20-35 MPH on the downhills.

Truck traffic is passing frequently in both directions. two trucks appear to be closing from a considerable distance on the bicyclist at the same rate. where does the cyclist ride to maximize safety? does the bicyclist need to ascertain the trucks notice them by slowing noticably in the bicyclists rear view mirror? what does a bicyclist do if there is traffic spaced 40 seconds apart on this road and the bicyclist is travelling 8 miles per hour? if the traffic is 2 minutes apart? 15 seconds?


without any upcoming traffic hazards or driveways, is there any justifiable reason to take the lane to prevent a driver from drifting into the twelve foot shoulder?

would a bicyclists' visibility help to provide cognitive awareness more so than lane position on this road, to allow the drivers of the trucks near certain recognition of a bicyclist regardless of road position?

Personally I would take the shoulder, the trucks should stay within the lane, except when there is a breakdown, truckers are usually smart enough to not try passing on the right. Having said this though, the average car driver isn't:rolleyes:

While I would stay on the shoulder, I would also make sure that lights are on, and reflectors are clean, and I am wearing something bright and reflective.

I'm glad to see so many non-lane takers. Is there anything NOT suicidal about getting in front of a truck moving at highway speed when you have a 12-foot shoulder?

I'd ride right against the curb. And why not? There's nothing inherently dangerous about the curb in that picture. I'd prefer to be as far from logging trucks as possible. If they were some other kind, I'd probably ride a little closer to the white line so as to catch the wake a bit.

As someone who actually drives on a freeway where bicyclists also ride (and where I also sometimes ride) I prefer when the cyclists are as far to the right as they can be. It makes me nervous to pass them when my speed is so much greater than theirs. They don't have to hug the curb, but I appreciate it when they aren't right against the white line. That's just too close for my own comfort zone as a driver.

Yesterday I was driving the 101 and had to pass a hand-cyclist. I admit I was pretty nervous. He was a pretty big target and I couldn't change lanes so I did the best I could to increase the distance between us. Distance is a good thing.

That's not a shoulder. That's a slow truck lane. Sometimes, a trucker winds up cranking up a hill at very slow speeds, and they can't do anything about that once the momentum is lost. Sometimes, they need to brake for oncoming traffic passing in thier lane, animals in the road, or for tourist type drivers that don't keep a truck friendly pace. Then they need a slow lane to use, because maintaining the traffic lane at ten or twenty miles an hour causes a lot of danger to other traffic. Oncoming traffic is more likely to attempt a pass in the oncoming lane through the gap created. Trailing traffic is much more likely to pass in the oncoming lane when being stuck grinding along behind a slow truck trailing diesel smoke for the next ten minutes is the only other option. The slow truck lanes prevent head on accidents.

That's not a shoulder. That's a slow truck lane. Sometimes, a trucker winds up cranking up a hill at very slow speeds, and they can't do anything about that once the momentum is lost. Sometimes, they need to brake for oncoming traffic passing in thier lane, animals in the road, or for tourist type drivers that don't keep a truck friendly pace. Then they need a slow lane to use, because maintaining the traffic lane at ten or twenty miles an hour causes a lot of danger to other traffic. Oncoming traffic is more likely to attempt a pass in the oncoming lane through the gap created. Trailing traffic is much more likely to pass in the oncoming lane when being stuck grinding along behind a slow truck trailing diesel smoke for the next ten minutes is the only other option. The slow truck lanes prevent head on accidents.Slow-truck lanes don't have solid lines. That's a shoulder.

where does the cyclist ride to maximize safety?
Good job on putting this case study together. Here's my take.

The reasons to be in the traffic lane and not in the shoulder are:


To be visible and predictable - to be properly positioned according to destination positioning - when approaching an intersection or any place where a right turn is authorized, including when preparing for a left turn.
When descending at over 30 miles an hour to be further from edge hazards.
When there is no same-direction traffic present, to increase cognitive conspicuity (no matter how good your sensory conspicuity is). I would not do this without a mirror and having a habit to check the rear every 3-5 seconds for approaching faster traffic. The reasons to increase cognitive conspicuity by riding further left (in the traffic lane) are:

To reduce even further the already low probability that someone approaching from behind will overlook your presence in the shoulder, and choose to attend to a distraction while they are overtaking you, during which time they inadvertently drift into the shoulder. See the Bike lane deaths (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=143989) thread for all too many actual instances of this phenomenon.
To be in the visible and predictable position for any upcoming intersections before you even notice it's coming; to improve your sight lines to/from any such intersections.
During sections where passing is allowed (dashed center stripe), to inhibit oncoming traffic from choosing to pass while you're coming the other way (unless you're okay with oncoming passes while you're riding in the shoulder - I'm not sure if I would be on this road without riding on it myself).

When/if applicable, to avoid debris in the shoulder.


The reasons to be in the shoulder and not in the traffic lane are:

To allow faster same-direction traffic that is present or approaching to pass.


As a result of all of the above, I would ride in both the shoulder and the main traffic lane on this road, depending on the circumstances.


does the bicyclist need to ascertain the trucks notice them by slowing noticably in the bicyclists rear view mirror?
No, it's not required. But it's always nice to be able to do that.



what does a bicyclist do if there is traffic spaced 40 seconds apart on this road and the bicyclist is travelling 8 miles per hour? if the traffic is 2 minutes apart?
If I move into the shoulder to allow a truck to pass, and after it passes I look back and see that the next truck is 40 (or more) seconds back, I might move left for the next 30 (up to N - 5, where N is the number of seconds back he is) seconds or so to increase my cognitive conspicuity, and, thus, increase the probability that the truck driver will notice me, and, thus, reduce the probability that sometime during the next 30 seconds the truck driver will choose to attend to a distraction, and inadvertently drift into the shoulder as he is overtaking me.



15 seconds?

Just stay in the shoulder. They are all following each other closely and thus much less likely (than when not following someone) to look away from the road long enough to inadvertently drift into the shoulder.


without any upcoming traffic hazards or driveways, is there any justifiable reason to take the lane to prevent a driver from drifting into the twelve foot shoulder?
Yes. See above.


would a bicyclists' visibility help to provide cognitive awareness more so than lane position on this road, to allow the drivers of the trucks near certain recognition of a bicyclist regardless of road position?
No idea. However, I try to do what I can to establish both sensory and cognitive conspicuity as much as is reasonably practical and safe.

Slow-truck lanes don't have solid lines. That's a shoulder.
A lot of non-freeway roads with truck traffic have huge shoulders like this, since a shoulder is cheaper than an intended traffic lane. I've gone and been hauled out into the twiddly sticks a lot over the years, and it is wierd to see a huge spiffy road like this, surrounded by shaven hills, after three hours of minimal boondocks roads shrouded in dense second-growth forest. Really kills off the "Deliverance" aura of the wilderness.

I'd be one of the cyclists cowering on the shoulder. A lot of drivers won't even slow down if they think they can get away with it, they'll just swerve around into oncoming traffic. Or the shoulder, if they're feeling witty. And the weekend warriors hauling toy trailers foam at the mouth when they see a big fast road like this. I wouldn't be overly worried about my own safety; they'd be too mad to not notice me. I would feel a whole lot safer riding out there than riding on a lot of the local high speed old farming roads leading to the big and cheap "country" housing. But I do think riding in the lane would put others at greater risk.

Good job on putting this case study together. Here's my take.

The reasons to be in the traffic lane and not in the shoulder are:


To be visible and predictable - to be properly positioned according to destination positioning - when approaching an intersection or any place where a right turn is authorized, including when preparing for a left turn.
When descending at over 30 miles an hour to be further from edge hazards.
When there is no same-direction traffic present, to increase cognitive conspicuity (no matter how good your sensory conspicuity is). I would not do this without a mirror and having a habit to check the rear every 3-5 seconds for approaching faster traffic. The reasons to increase cognitive conspicuity by riding further left (in the traffic lane) are:

To reduce even further the already low probability that someone approaching from behind will overlook your presence in the shoulder, and choose to attend to a distraction while they are overtaking you, during which time they inadvertently drift into the shoulder. See the Bike lane deaths (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=143989) thread for all too many actual instances of this phenomenon.
To be in the visible and predictable position for any upcoming intersections before you even notice it's coming; to improve your sight lines to/from any such intersections.
During sections where passing is allowed (dashed center stripe), to inhibit oncoming traffic from choosing to pass while you're coming the other way (unless you're okay with oncoming passes while you're riding in the shoulder - I'm not sure if I would be on this road without riding on it myself).

When/if applicable, to avoid debris in the shoulder.


The reasons to be in the shoulder and not in the traffic lane are:

To allow faster same-direction traffic that is present or approaching to pass.


As a result of all of the above, I would ride in both the shoulder and the main traffic lane on this road, depending on the circumstances.


No, it's not required. But it's always nice to be able to do that.



If I move into the shoulder to allow a truck to pass, and after it passes I look back and see that the next truck is 40 (or more) seconds back, I might move left for the next 30 (up to N - 5, where N is the number of seconds back he is) seconds or so to increase my cognitive conspicuity, and, thus, increase the probability that the truck driver will notice me, and, thus, reduce the probability that sometime during the next 30 seconds the truck driver will choose to attend to a distraction, and inadvertently drift into the shoulder as he is overtaking me.


Just stay in the shoulder. They are all following each other closely and thus much less likely (than when not following someone) to look away from the road long enough to inadvertently drift into the shoulder.


Yes. See above.


No idea. However, I try to do what I can to establish both sensory and cognitive conspicuity as much as is reasonably practical and safe.

Helmet Head,

This would work pretty well on a straight and level road, with normal traffic. But it is obvious that you have never ridden roads with log trucks. They are an exception, as they are very heavily loaded when carrying logs, and cannot react well. If the trucks are 40 seconds apart, at 60 mph they have 3500 feet between them. But they probably do not have 3500 feet of visibility. They are usually on twisting, turning roadways, and around here if there is a shoulder that is as wide as is in the photo, the bicyclist should be there, and stay there. That way, they are predictable (per your notation above). But if the cyclist is constantly taking the lane, they become unpredictable in the eyes of the log truck driver. If they have only 100 meters of visibility (or yards, at this speed it doesn't make much difference whether we measure in metric or the US Standard system), the log truck driver only has about 4 seconds to react, and believe me, a log truck doesn't do much in 4 seconds at 60 mph. There is simply too much momentum to depend upon the driver of a log truck to see and react in time to avoid an accident.

John

If I move into the shoulder to allow a truck to pass, and after it passes I look back and see that the next truck is 40 (or more) seconds back, I might move left for the next 30 (up to N - 5, where N is the number of seconds back he is) seconds or so to increase my cognitive conspicuity, and, thus, increase the probability that the truck driver will notice me, and, thus, reduce the probability that sometime during the next 30 seconds the truck driver will choose to attend to a distraction, and inadvertently drift into the shoulder as he is overtaking me.At 2000 feet back (roughly 30 seconds), R-Wells says he says he'd already be scrubbing speed in response to a cyclist riding up the middle of the traffic lane. At 1000 feet, he's... well, read his post (post #20). At 500 feet back, he's looking for an emergency escape route to avoid the cyclist.


By now I figure I am down to 500 ft
If he still hasn’t moved I start looking for my emergency route to keep from hitting him if I cant slow down fast enough.And 500 feet is about 6 seconds back at 60mph. So basically, with your 5-second rule, you want to set up situations that a pro trucker seems to consider the brink of an emergency, and then move over? How very considerate. I'm sure it does wonders as a method of cycling advocacy. :rolleyes:

Bottom line, if you want to be safe on a roadway, forcing these situations on semi drivers is NOT the way to go about it. I recommend that if you want to play POWERWEAVE with semi traffic, triple your time window to 15+ seconds, or just don't do it at all. Naturally, you'll also be adding this change to all future POWERWEAVE sermons, so you don't put people in danger by recommending a hazardous technique.


and around here if there is a shoulder that is as wide as is in the photo, the bicyclist should be there, and stay there. That way, they are predictable (per your notation above). But if the cyclist is constantly taking the lane, they become unpredictable in the eyes of the log truck driver. Amen. Thanks for some plain old common sense, John.

A little more to think about: sometimes when the logs extend far enough past the end of the trailer, and it is a tight curve, the driver will take part of the shoulder so that the logs don't carry over past the double yellow.

There is simply too much momentum to depend upon the driver of a log truck to see and react in time to avoid an accident.
Nothing in what I wrote implied a method that depends upon any motor vehicle driver, including a driver of a log truck, to see and react in time to avoid an accident.

If you think I wrote something that did, please point out what it is, so I can correct it.

It is true that I've never driven on roads with logging trucks.
If I ever have the opportunity, the first thing I would do is adjust the parameters in my method according to the context, as I do no matter what context I'm in. Don't get hung up on the times. They're all just estimates and could be off by a factor of 10 for certain contexts for all I know.

Highway speed, rural, two lane road with 12 foot shoulders. high amounts of logging truck and commercial large vehicle traffic. curves, hilly, rolling terrain. sun is low in the sky. The shoulder is swept as clean as the main travel lane.

How many continuous hours did the driver have? Was he tired? Did he fall asleep?

"Sun is low in the sky." Was the sun in front of or behind the cyclist? Since it's mentioned, I assume the cyclist was riding into the sun or it would not have been a factor.

The best a cyclist can do under these circumstances is to make him/herself as conspicuous as possible. Bright colors; white, yellow, ANSI green, are all good. As are daytime visble lighting and road position. Yes road position. You can believe I would be in the middle of the lane on every blind curve so that I could be seen from as far away as possible in both directions.

Hopefully, the driver of the truck is currently in jail facing felony counts relating to this crash, or at least being investigated.
This should happen to the driver at fault in every case when their negligence causes a death or serious injury.

That being said, drivers of vehicles requiring a CDL are among the most professional I see on the road.

Helmet Head,

You wrote:

Good job on putting this case study together. Here's my take.

The reasons to be in the traffic lane and not in the shoulder are:


To be visible and predictable - to be properly positioned according to destination positioning - when approaching an intersection or any place where a right turn is authorized, including when preparing for a left turn.
When descending at over 30 miles an hour to be further from edge hazards.
When there is no same-direction traffic present, to increase cognitive conspicuity (no matter how good your sensory conspicuity is). I would not do this without a mirror and having a habit to check the rear every 3-5 seconds for approaching faster traffic. The reasons to increase cognitive conspicuity by riding further left (in the traffic lane) are:

To reduce even further the already low probability that someone approaching from behind will overlook your presence in the shoulder, and choose to attend to a distraction while they are overtaking you, during which time they inadvertently drift into the shoulder. See the Bike lane deaths (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=143989) thread for all too many actual instances of this phenomenon.
To be in the visible and predictable position for any upcoming intersections before you even notice it's coming; to improve your sight lines to/from any such intersections.
During sections where passing is allowed (dashed center stripe), to inhibit oncoming traffic from choosing to pass while you're coming the other way (unless you're okay with oncoming passes while you're riding in the shoulder - I'm not sure if I would be on this road without riding on it myself).

When/if applicable, to avoid debris in the shoulder.


The reasons to be in the shoulder and not in the traffic lane are:

To allow faster same-direction traffic that is present or approaching to pass...



While you did not say it specifically for this situation, you posted it on here (talking about log trucks) as a reason to be in the lane. It is easy to interpret that you are saying be in the lane in this situation. Many times, it is not possible to know whether there is same-direction traffic on some of these roads, as they twist around and do not allow visibility for the distance required to see same-direction traffic.

John

It is true that I've never driven on roads with logging trucks.
If I ever have the opportunity, the first thing I would do is adjust the parameters in my method according to the context, as I do no matter what context I'm in. Don't get hung up on the times. They're all just estimates and could be off by a factor of 10 for certain contexts for all I know.

logging trucks are big and fast,
and smell like christmas when they pass....


i'd suggest you cede to your peers, helmet head, follow some advice in A&S, and apply techniques gleaned from the real world and not the armchair. this road demands NO POWERWEAVING TO BE SAFE IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. Well, maybe when there's a dead elk in the shoulder up ahead...likely hit and killed by a logging truck when the ELK decided to take the lane....

a powerweave as described by head would make this road exponentially more unsafe for both bicyclist AND every truck that passed the biker. NOT safer for the rider. you suggest you could be off by a factor of 10? and consider your advice even vaguely "ballpark?"


Excellent analysis and description, John C. Ratliff, and to the rest of the valuable insight from the cabovers of JCM, Rwells, and Kjhoj, most excellent to see this from the driver's perspectives.


"Highway speed, rural, two lane road with 12 foot shoulders. high amounts of logging truck and commercial large vehicle traffic. curves, hilly, rolling terrain. sun is low in the sky. The shoulder is swept as clean as the main travel lane...." where do YOU ride?

While you did not say it specifically for this situation, you posted it on here (talking about log trucks) as a reason to be in the lane. It is easy to interpret that you are saying be in the lane in this situation. Many times, it is not possible to know whether there is same-direction traffic on some of these roads, as they twist around and do not allow visibility for the distance required to see same-direction traffic.

Any road that's twisting around enough to not allow one to see same direction traffic for any significant amount of time is a road where big trucks will not be going full speed. I've been stuck behind them on my bike going 10mph with a huge backup of cars as well (no shoulder on the road). Due to the fact that so many people like to drive onto the shoulder around sharp bends I would prefer to be in the lane to be seen before the bend and alert the driver to slow down and not use the shoulder for their turn as there will be a cyclist occupying that space.

I will agree that on a straight flat road with good sightlines and 60+ mph speeds I'd be moving into the shoulder with at least 15 seconds to spare.

why are you guys in the lane again? the shoulder is as wide as a full lane and swept clean.

why are you guys in the lane again? the shoulder is as wide as a full lane and swept clean.


Why not? I don't care how "swept clean" a shoulder is. When I can I always take the lane. In my experience no matter how nice a shoulder is, the actual lane is nicer.

What I don't get is why you feel everyone must stay out of the lane. I haven't seen anyone here advocating taking the lane specifically to block traffic or cut anyone off.

I will take the lane when I can and ride on the shoulder when I must. Very much for the reasons HH explained in his post. What I won't do is give specific times like he did. For one, I wouldn't have a clue until I was in that situation so my numbers would be pure guesses. Plus it just gives you and others an easy way to throw the argument back at me. Not worth it. I will say that I generally move over in such a way that the oncoming traffic does not have to slow down.

Now one thing not mentioned about "taking the lane" that I think is important is that while this method increases the chance the oncoming traffic sees me, the act of moving out of their way also indicates to the traffic that I SEE THEM. All to often I think cars/trucks etc get squirrely passing us as much as we get concerned about us passing them. The may not know if we have noticed they are coming up behind us. By moving over I am saying "Yea I see you back there and I am moving out of your way". I have actually gotten waves from cars and trucks when doing this, so I will surmise that they appreciate it.

So what I don't get is why you are so hell bent on smashing this lane positioning idea. I haven't ever ridden on logging roads, but what I have said is what I would attempt to do. But someday if I am in that position is when I would truly know what method works. I am sure HH would be the same way. He is saying the principles he would try to ride by, but would do what works best when he actually encountered that situation.

[edit] And for what it's worth, maybe this is "VC" maybe not. I have never read any related books, or checked out the VC wiki. I started riding this way before I even found these forums. It just made sense to me. Very similar to pulling over to the slow lane in my car when I see another vehicle coming up to overtake me.

-D

why are you guys in the lane again? the shoulder is as wide as a full lane and swept clean.

And another thought. Since this is a "case study" anyhow. How do I know the lane is just as good as the road. Sure the shoulder in the picture looks darn nice. But can you "guarantee" that it is this nice 100% of the time?

A good example. I have a route I ride near my house. The shoulders aren't as wide, but in general are decent. There is one spot however that is not so nice. It is on a downhill where I can hit 30mph coasting. There is one spot on the shoulder that looks like it was accidentally gouged by the teeth of a backhoe. If I were to emply the "stay out of traffic" method I would have likely hit these gouges, which are at least 4 inches deep and 5-6inches wide, running approx 45deg from the path of the road. I can pretty much guarantee I would end up going over the handlebars.

At the speeds I am going I would have come up on them quickly, and quite frankly, for some reason they don't pop out at you like some road problems.

But I tend to stay in the lane when I can and blew past them the first time thinking "Man I am glad I wasn't in the shoulder there"

-D

Unbelievable.

I get the feeling that some people have never even driven a car near logging trucks. You don't want to be near them for any reason. They whoosh by and can pull you over with the force of the air they move. They also tend to overdrive the road conditions to an impossible extreme.

I should think that with a 12 foot shoulder and me needing only about 2 feet of it I would care not at all if nobody ever saw me over to the far right. Me over on the far right in a 12 foot shoulder is rougly equal to me in a bike lane with the other traffic in the left lane and nobody in the right lane. I think that's a pretty good buffer zone of safety. And it would allow me to concentrate on enjoying the scenery rather than watching my ass for logging trucks. Anybody who'd drift that far will drift all the way over the edge and if they're that bad a driver there's not much I can do about it.

Why not?
-D


-the high amounts of truck traffic, the curvy road. this is NOT a 3 foot shoulder with debris, or six inches of crumbling white line.

on this road as described and pictured, any sane bicyclist would NOT be taking the lane unless there is a roadway hazard requiring it.I think you'd be right there too, regardless of your going off in here.

there are MANY explained reasons in this thread as to why NOT to take the lane.....chill, buddy.

"logging trucks are big and fast,
and smell like christmas when they pass.
you can ride their draft if you've got some luck,
just don't pull too close or you're royally f**ked."

You guys have not been in log truck territory if you think you can ride the lane safely. Let me give you a brief description of how it works here. In Oregon, the roads are not straight, and the drivers of log trucks try to keep their momentum up whenever possible. They drive downhill at speeds of over 70 mph, anticipating the next uphill, and hope that their momentum carries them up the other side at a decent speed. They know their roads by heart, as they make two to four trips per day from their logging side to the mill, and back again. They know what speed they need when fully loaded, and they know every twist and turn in the road. They are also on the CB and constantly talking to the other log trucks on their route, to tell them of problems or situations that they may encounter. A logging side tries to get as many truck loads per day out to the mill as possible, and it is the log truck driver's responsibility to deliver the logs, turn the truck around, and get back up to the loggind side with a minimum of delays. Their livelihoods depend upon turning these trucks around quickly and efficiently. The roads are normally logging roads to the logging side (that's what they are called here), and at this point are single lane to one and a half lanes in the mountains. As they come out of the mountains, they are typically two lane roads, most ofter with some (but not much) shoulder. As they get down further, they become roads like the one pictured at the beginning of this thread. They are not straight, but twist and turn with the terraine as secondary roads do. Rarely will there be line-of-sight of more than 1/4 mile. Usually, these roads combine small hills with turns.

Now, enter a cyclist into this equation. If the bicyclist tries to "take the lane," the cyclist risks having a log truck driver swing around a bend in the road at between 45 and 70 mph, with just a few seconds of time to react. This is not an easy environment to safely bicycle. Taking the lane in these conditions can be very hazardous to your safety, as it gives the log truck driven not much options but to either slow down (which may not be an option if fully loaded), or pass (which may not be an option if there is opposing traffic). Here are some interesting stats on log trucks:


Each log truck weighs nearly 30,000 pounds and can carry loads up to 57,000 pounds, for a total weight of nearly 45 tons, the drivers said.

(from: http://www.theolympian.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060521/NEWS/60521001)

Don't tempt fate, and stay out of the way of these huge, heavily loaded vehicles. We've had people in cars pull out in front of these trucks, with the trucks being what they thought was a safe breaking distance, only to have the trucks impact the cars or pickups and kill people.

By the way, you would not want to hear what they had to say on their CBs if you were in the lane and the drivers had to make the decisions you force on them. The language would probably melt your helmet, and sear your ears.

John

And another thought. Since this is a "case study" anyhow. How do I know the lane is just as good as the road. Sure the shoulder in the picture looks darn nice. But can you "guarantee" that it is this nice 100% of the time?

A good example. I have a route I ride near my house. The shoulders aren't as wide, but in general are decent. There is one spot however that is not so nice. It is on a downhill where I can hit 30mph coasting. There is one spot on the shoulder that looks like it was accidentally gouged by the teeth of a backhoe. If I were to emply the "stay out of traffic" method I would have likely hit these gouges, which are at least 4 inches deep and 5-6inches wide, running approx 45deg from the path of the road. I can pretty much guarantee I would end up going over the handlebars.

At the speeds I am going I would have come up on them quickly, and quite frankly, for some reason they don't pop out at you like some road problems.

But I tend to stay in the lane when I can and blew past them the first time thinking "Man I am glad I wasn't in the shoulder there"

-D

This is the wonder of a case study. The case study is fully contained and there are no facts outside the initial description.

About the gouges; gouges and other road hazards happen in more places than just on the shoulder. All I can say is that if you are comfortable going down hills at 30 mph, you'd probably be wise to learn to bunny hop, or at least lift your wheel over or across the obstacle. At 30 mph on a bike, there is not a lot of room to stop, and swerving in traffic is a sometimes hazardous proposition. And, yea, the gouges were on the shoulder this time, but potholes, gouges, rough pavement, etc. can happen anywhere. In fact, the most common place for potholes around here is in the tire tracks of cars; exactly where many cyclists prefer to ride when keeping up with traffic or going at speeds at or above 30 mph.

...as to lane/ lane and a half logging roads, well watch out! watch for the dust. but if a forest service road was being actively logged that day, i probably wouldn't be riding there as a pleasure ride except by happpenstance. Encountering fully loaded rigs on gravel logging roads is like running the bulls of pamploma...

-the high amounts of truck traffic, the curvy road. this is NOT a 3 foot shoulder with debris, or six inches of crumbling white line.

Then your "case study" is incomplete. I saw a picture of what looked like a straight road, with 2 regular vehicles, no oncoming traffic. And is that a Horse sign? Does that mean horse crossing or that I may encounter horses on the shoulder?


on this road as described and pictured, any sane bicyclist would NOT be taking the lane unless there is a roadway hazard requiring it.I think you'd be right there too, regardless of your going off in here.

Possibly. I never said I would definitely take the lane. I am not an idiot. Maybe by your description of the road, but according to your picture this looks like a fairly quiet road. And you know they say a picture is worth a thousand words...


.....chill, buddy.

Right back at ya:D



Now to be fair, I will address your specific situation of your "Case study" You are correct in that in that "Specific situation" I would certainly not put myself in potential harm or the truck in a situation of having to brake. But depending on how far back the truck is, and how long the distance you can see, I might be in the lane until I feel the need to pull over (when?, ask me after I have ridden there).

But even within the shoulder I would likely hang to the left of the shoulder and make a move to the right of the shoulder. Not at the last seconds mind you, but I still think that act of moving right is an EXCELLENT way to signal to overtaking vehicles that I know they are coming up behind me.



I get the feeling that some people have never even driven a car near logging trucks.

And your point is? The whole thing about this "case study" is that many of us can only guess what we could do based on our experiences. It would be like someone posting a "case study" about how to ride in downtown manhatten during rush hour. If you haven't ridden in that kind of traffic you don't know exactly how you would handle until you were in that situation. Which in the end would make that "case study" about a pointless as a point of debate as this one is.

-D

jcm, to get this right from an actual truck driver... if a truck driver came around the corner onto this straightstretch and saw a cyclist dead-center in the traffic lane about 1000-2000 feet ahead, and the cyclist was holding that line, how would the driver's decision-making process go, what would the mental walkthrough be?

I've been figuring that with a long stopping distance, limited acceleration, a very long vehicle to pass with, and his job on the line, the truck driver is going to be at a "commitment point" when he's still quite a ways back. Either commit to a pass, or else begin to slow down to bike speed if it's not definitely safe to pass in the left lane (as with that corner ahead in the picture), since there's no way of knowing for certain what the cyclist might do.

Am I warm? Would the driver be annoyed at the cyclist if, after being put through this scenario, the cyclist then pulled onto the shoulder when the truck was 5 seconds away?

R-Wells said pretty good. :D I like to check out the bike, too. Especially a loaded tour bike. With that scenario, I would give three toots on the air horn - short, with about a second between each. Again if the cyclist does not turn his head or wave his hand.

Bikes make us uncomfortable alot of the time, but not so much if they are only using the space they need. I have to wonder at cyclists who ride in the lane around iffy situations. Just doesn't make sense to me. It comes down to this: Truck drivers have to keep a clear head. There's more on the line due to having less fudge room and control in an emergency. When things go wrong, it's a BIG wrong. I also think that it's the same with a bike because there's no forgiveness on the ground or under the wheels of a vehicle. You gotta ride strategically at all times. Know when you can win and when you will likely lose.

Remember the line: "Hey, kid, go play in the freeway."

Slow-truck lanes don't have solid lines. That's a shoulder.

Actually, they sometimes do. It's a state by state thing. If there is a solid line, there will usually be teenie-weenie little sign at the bottom of the grade saying it's ok to use it. Very aggravating when there is a 38' motor home half way up with everybody out taking pictures... Grrrr

here's a textbook lane positioning scenario right out of last weekend. without divulging the bicyclists demise or other particulars, i'd like to discuss riding positions on well accomodated roadways as described in this CASE STUDY

See photo below- actual roadway described


Highway speed, rural, two lane road with 12 foot shoulders. high amounts of logging truck and commercial large vehicle traffic. curves, hilly, rolling terrain. sun is low in the sky. The shoulder is swept as clean as the main travel lane.

A bicyclist is riding in one direction on the road. they are travelling 8 MPH on the uphills and 20-35 MPH on the downhills.

Truck traffic is passing frequently in both directions. two trucks appear to be closing from a considerable distance on the bicyclist at the same rate. where does the cyclist ride to maximize safety? does the bicyclist need to ascertain the trucks notice them by slowing noticably in the bicyclists rear view mirror? what does a bicyclist do if there is traffic spaced 40 seconds apart on this road and the bicyclist is travelling 8 miles per hour? if the traffic is 2 minutes apart? 15 seconds?


without any upcoming traffic hazards or driveways, is there any justifiable reason to take the lane to prevent a driver from drifting into the twelve foot shoulder?

would a bicyclists' visibility help to provide cognitive awareness more so than lane position on this road, to allow the drivers of the trucks near certain recognition of a bicyclist regardless of road position?


OK, text book case... having touring experience and being offered a road like that (unlike the reality of most roads... with no shoulders and hair pin turns), I would ride to the right of the line... but just to the right... unless I heard other traffic approaching... then I would tend to wander further right.

My experience tells me that the further to the right on that shoulder you go, the worse the road condition is going to be. But as wide as that shoulder is... heck, I would probably stay right in the shoulder all the time.

But this is "text book" and not reality. Reality doesn't often hand you roads like this.

-the high amounts of truck traffic, the curvy road. this is NOT a 3 foot shoulder with debris, or six inches of crumbling white line.

on this road as described and pictured, any sane bicyclist would NOT be taking the lane unless there is a roadway hazard requiring it.I think you'd be right there too, regardless of your going off in here.

there are MANY explained reasons in this thread as to why NOT to take the lane.....chill, buddy.

"logging trucks are big and fast,
and smell like christmas when they pass.
you can ride their draft if you've got some luck,
just don't pull too close or you're royally f**ked."

Beko set the parameters of the Case Study. His example is not a logging road per se. It is either a county road or a State Route and has lots of Microsoft Millionaires out in the country clearing developements for their 7000sq ft homes - scads of 'em. This brings out the logging trucks and all other types for that matter. Large fast sedans, pickups and SUV's as well - gotta go check progress.

Logging roads around here are almost always gravel and cycling on them normally requires an mtb. Although, not in all cases: Beko goes up there on his Trek 520!

In this study, stay on the shoulder. It looks inviting and low intensity. Enjoy it while it lasts. In other situations, just ride defensively. Make strategic choices.