Here is a peeve of mine. Why do police make such a poor showing in enforcing traffic law?
:confused:
I don't buy (maybe I'm missing something here) the we can't afford the extra staff/wages excuse because, it would seem to me, not only issuing tickets would pay for the extra police, but the reduction in damages from accidents (and I hate using the term "accident" for many motor vehicle collisions - they're not accidents at all, most are the result of negligence of safe driving practices) would save lots of money.
The costs of traffic accidents are not only huge, they are bigger than other costs incured that the police have no trouble looking into. In a recent Vancouver Province article by Keith Morgan, he wrote,
"Deaths, personal injuries and property loss caused by crashes or collisions here in B.C. are far greater than those resulting from all other crimes combined."
Yet funding for the traffic enforcement squad has been reduced.
So, to keep our streets safer for everyone, why not flood the streets with cops so they can get every tailgater, speeder, refuser to yeild, cut off artist, light runner, jaywalker and wrong way cyclist to stop?
SallieW
03-13-03, 03:17 PM
This is a peeve of mine too! I attend any meetings which the city holds that deal with cycling issues. One thing that often comes up is the complaint of motorists that cyclists don't obey traffic laws, thus losing respect. The solution that is often proposed is to start ticketing cyclists. Never included in this is a propsal to also ticket motorists who violate the rights of cyclists.
We've had two cases where motorists have turned into the path of cyclists, killing them, and not been charged. One woman was driving into the sun, she claimed she couldn't see the cyclist, and that was the end of it! In the other case a truck turned right across the cyclist's path. He was quoted in the paper as saying, "I didn't think he could catch up." So he clearly saw him, but turned anyway. The police blamed the cyclist, saying he had "passed on the right." The widow went to court to establish responsiblity. They ruled that the truck driver was "55%" at fault, leaving 45% of the responsibility with the cyclist.
I was crossing an interseciton at a light, a city bus was in the right turn lane heading the same direction as I, but instead he passed me on the right then cut me off. I contacted the police. They refused to do anything about it, even though with a bus number and time and date it would be easy to establish who was driving. The officer actually said even if she had seen it happen, she wouldn't have issued a ticket. I asked if I had been in a car would she have, she said yes!
Chris L
03-13-03, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by closetbiker
Here is a peeve of mine. Why do police make such a poor showing in enforcing traffic law?
I agree with you 100%. Personally, I think traffic laws are the one aspect of the law that has gotten so out of hand, it needs and demands a fascist police state.
As far as why they don't bother to enforce it, I think it happens simply because it would be too much of a political issue. Think about it, in virtually every other crime in existence, the perpetrators are a minority of the population. Enforcing these therefore only impacts on a minority, so governments have no problems in doing it.
When it comes to traffic laws, those who break these are basically the majority of people on the road (at least that's the case around here). Speeding, running red lights etc are common behaviour and considered to be 'socially acceptable'. If a government included this in a 'tough on crime' policy, they'd last about five minutes. Hence it continues.
closetbiker
03-13-03, 04:08 PM
We had a photo-radar program that ticketed drivers automatically when they drove more than 15 kmh over the posted maximum speed (so, more than 65kmh in a 50 kmh zone). Needless to say, it was disbanded because it was so unpopular. Imagine, having a beef about a ticket when you've gone 70 kmh in a 50 kmh zone!
We have hidden camera's catching red light runners but only at about 4 intersections in a city(area) of 2 million!
People have beefs with street racers but I'll bet more damage is done by those tail gaters than by all the street racers.
Dutchy
03-13-03, 06:22 PM
We have 20 speed cameras in this state. Most are on city roads, with some posted on country roads. If you are 6mph/10kph over the limit "SNAP" you will get a fine. These things have a built in flash for night time also. They are brilliant and nab thousands of motorists a year. Of course people complain that they are only revenue raises but I figure if you don't speed then the government won't raise much revenue. Pretty simple really, stop speeding, stop raising revenue.
It is absolutely astounding how many people still speed and get caught by these cameras, we have had them for 10 years but people still don't learn. A friend of mine has received 14 fines over the past 10 years, he's a slow learner.
The government is about to enable red light cameras to detect speeding at the same time. So if you are speeding while running a red you will get one fine for each offence. More revenue.:D
CHEERS.
Mark
Spire
03-13-03, 06:38 PM
The problem in my mind is not so much that the police are not out there stopping people breaking traffic rules (which there is insufficient of also). The police are checking for the crimes with the least possiblity of damange. Going an extra 10-20 miles per hour on the highway is not safe, but they should be after the people who weave lanes, drive dangerously etc... etc... the police's time would be much better spend trying to nail these guys.
Chris L
03-13-03, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Spire
The problem in my mind is not so much that the police are not out there stopping people breaking traffic rules (which there is insufficient of also). The police are checking for the crimes with the least possiblity of damange. Going an extra 10-20 miles per hour on the highway is not safe, but they should be after the people who weave lanes, drive dangerously etc... etc... the police's time would be much better spend trying to nail these guys.
That's true, however, we also need to look at the penalties for these sort of offences. As far as I'm concerned, anyone guilty of the sort of gross incompetence you mentioned should simply have their licence cancelled on the spot. That would put a stop to it rather quickly.
The other thing is, the police generally don't have to do too much to get the speeding drivers, all we simply need is a few more speed cameras. My proposal is that every cent raised out of speed camera fines should be spent on more speed cameras. Let the population decide how much enforcement they need by their behaviour.
Portent
03-14-03, 03:59 AM
If cyclists could go faster than the speed limit, then (I believe) the same percentage as car drivers would speed.
closetbiker
03-14-03, 09:45 AM
I usually joke with the guys at work (when they're complaining about their latest ticket) that instead of getting a fine, they should just be forced to ride their bike into work for a week. By the look in their eyes, I think they would hate that more than the fine.
I have to agree with Chris L though. It is political. Poor driving (and that costly damage that results) is socially acceptable and politicians don't last when they try to straighten things out (too fast).
Maybe, because driving is so common, everyone falls into the "it's not going to happen to me" syndrome. They fear uncommon occurances more (like say, child abduction) and place more prevention on those things.
How ironic that more die from car accidents that occur on the way to driving the kids to school than kids go missing when walking on their own to school.
Paul L.
03-14-03, 11:10 AM
I think in our city they had a great statistic on their cameras. I think intersection with the cameras see a 20 - 30% drop in accidents for the year. Kind of hard to argue with that! It was amazing the amount of whining that went on when people started seeing these things going up. We even have minivans with speed sensing equipment that are parked on the side of the road, they put up big signs saying radar ahead and people still get caught! I think that if there is a sign up showing that fact the person should lose their license as they obviously aren't observant enough to be driving!
closetbiker
03-14-03, 11:19 AM
One of the problems with taking someones licence away is they end up driving anyhow.
With so few police pulling over cars for violations, you can drive a long time before you're caught.
Paul L.
03-14-03, 01:48 PM
"One of the problems with taking someones licence away is they end up driving anyhow."
This is true. We are already paying more for insurance for uninsured motorists on our car. I wonder if there is any kind of underinsured motorist insurance for bicyclists?
closetbiker
03-14-03, 03:15 PM
In B.C. we have mandatory liability insurance.
If you own an insured car and are walking down the street (or riding your bike) and are a victim of a hit and run, you're covered for damages. If not by the car that hit you (say it ended up being unidentified) then by your own insurance.
Drivers don't like the amount they pay for insurance but it's a reflection of the costs of the damages they cause. I (twice) bought a million dollar liability insurance policy for cycling and it cost me $15 a year.
Spire
03-14-03, 03:51 PM
We have the stupid no fault system here in Quebec where the government administers the mandatory insurance plan, if you get hurt by a person driving a car, you only get peanuts in compensation. If you are permantnently disabled by an auto accident that is not your fault I think you get a low 6-digit sum of money.
Pete Clark
03-14-03, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by closetbiker
Here is a peeve of mine. Why do police make such a poor showing in enforcing traffic law?
Because pedestrians belong on the sidewalk and nothing should get in the way of cars. Everyone knows that speed limits are never taken seriously, especially by police.
That is sad, but true.
NZLcyclist
03-14-03, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by closetbiker
In B.C. we have mandatory liability insurance.
I (twice) bought a million dollar liability insurance policy for cycling and it cost me $15 a year.
tell me more about this policy? I'm a 16y/o so i dont know much about insurance etc
Chris L
03-15-03, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Portent
If cyclists could go faster than the speed limit, then (I believe) the same percentage as car drivers would speed.
If I ever get a speeding ticket on my bike, I'm going to frame it!
Chris L
03-15-03, 01:01 AM
Originally posted by closetbiker
One of the problems with taking someones licence away is they end up driving anyhow.
A couple of car confiscations would fix that in five minutes.
closetbiker
03-15-03, 10:05 AM
Just recently, on the evening news, there was a story about someone who had just had his license taken away (for a huge list of gross offenses). They had confiscated his car as well.
Being a large, downtown court complex, there are always police and news camera crews around. This guy, after leaving the courtroom, was filmed walking outside right into a car parked curbside and started to pull out into traffic before about 6 cops and 3 news crews stopped him.
He just got more fines.
oscaregg
03-15-03, 10:16 AM
My plan for auto law enforcement: Take all the cops in a given department who have excessive force complaints on their records and turn them into the traffic detail. US motorists are so spoiled that they need some years of feeling a solid fear of police to break their behavior. I say treat every bad driver like a king--a Rodney King!
jatkins679
03-15-03, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by closetbiker
Just recently, on the evening news, there was a story about someone who had just had his license taken away...
...He just got more fines.
No offense, but that's an old saw for a story here in the Bay Area, an easy story that the media can do on a regular basis (like the 'controversy' over daylight savings time or how everything is too expensive to buy) that offends no one that matters and still outrages many. I remember as a kid KRON Channel 4 in SF did that story numerous times, sitting in on traffic court hearings, defendant gets license revoked, defendant drives away anyway, film at 11...
There simply isn't much you can do about someone who is simply willing to pay the judicial price for their crime. Just look at the creeps that violate restraining orders and don't care.
If you're willing to pay the price that courts meet out, then there's nothing else the courts can do. Given how important many/most Americans see the use of their cars, it really isn't all that surprising to see so many people just shrug as they drive away from court right after losing their license. In fact, I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often.
But then again it does happen, just in a different way: so many people driving without insurance. That happens because simply put, the price of driving without it isn't as much as the cost of not having a car to drive to so many people. Oh well....
oscaregg
03-21-03, 08:03 PM
Jatkins, there is something but American police departments lack the spine to do it. Drivers who get their licenses suspended need some 3AM behavior mod from a few big, mean cops who don't carry I.D. and who have lost family members to other drivers who shouldn't be on the road. IMHO a few KGB-like sessions with anger-bearing cops would straighten some of these "people" out. Driving with a suspended license should be punished with bone breakage and/or blunt force internal injuries.
Chris L
03-22-03, 12:09 AM
No, you don't need extreme violence to stop unlicenced drivers, you just need car confiscations.
uciflylow
03-22-03, 07:03 AM
need some 3AM behavior mod from a few big, mean cops who don't carry I.D. and who have lost family members to other drivers who shouldn't be on the road. IMHO a few KGB-like sessions with anger-bearing cops would straighten some of these "people" out.
Yea and while there at it poison all captured illegal drugs and put them back out on the street! Shoot all users and manufactures on the 7pm news. Hang anyone cought driving under the influence of alcohol! Cut off the hands of theives, public floggings for slander, work houses for forgers and bad checks!
You see where this is going!:mad: I wouldn't want to live in a police state! I remember a conversation I had with a state trooper when I was young. I work in an ER setting BTW.
I made a comment about why couldn't we do something about the drug problem. He commented if we wanted to live in a state where he could kick in my door, search my house and arrest me with out making any charges, he could!:eek: He said "would you want to live in a country like that?" I decided then my answer was a NO! I still see drugs and alcohol ruin lives, guilty and innocent, the DEA has enough broad powers now to ruin inocent lives while making an impact on the drug trade.
Let's think a little before we make statments like this.:rolleyes:
oscaregg
03-22-03, 10:54 PM
Naahhhh. My 35 years of cycling have given me this wisdom: Drivers aren't really people, and need to pay for their crimes in flesh and bone!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Da Tinker
03-23-03, 09:17 AM
It's going to take a culture shift to get good, even-handed traffic law enforcement. First off, the cops need to know the law! I know the law regarding bicycles better than many of the local cops I have dealt with. And people need to view driving a car as a priveledge, not a right.
Chris, when you get your speeding ticket, get it notarized, so people will believe it. I got a ticket for 34 mph in a 25 zone, but it was dismissed due to the cop's failure to properly identify the vehicle (my bike). Plus, the judge didn't really believe I could go that fast. Oh, and I was trying to get the ticket.
oscaregg
03-23-03, 10:51 AM
At the HPV championships one year, a California Highway Patrol officer issued a ceremonial ticket for the first team/machine to break 55mph!
Chris L
03-23-03, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Da Tinker
Chris, when you get your speeding ticket, get it notarized, so people will believe it. I got a ticket for 34 mph in a 25 zone, but it was dismissed due to the cop's failure to properly identify the vehicle (my bike). Plus, the judge didn't really believe I could go that fast. Oh, and I was trying to get the ticket.
I'll just haul out my wallet and pay the fine in cash on the spot! There aint no way I'm letting a judge nullify my moment of glory, baby!
:D
Justen
04-13-03, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by closetbiker
Here is a peeve of mine. Why do police make such a poor showing in enforcing traffic law?
There is no problem with that here..in fact, it is quite the opposite. The police are everywhere and ticket motorists, pedestrians and cyclists alike.
We have tons of bike cops and they are nasty with tickets. It's like they'll give you a ticket for going an inch over the pedestrian walk line.
Justen
Dutchy
04-14-03, 01:46 AM
It's like they'll give you a ticket for going an inch over the pedestrian walk line.
When stopping at an intersection with traffic lights, I will usually roll into the pedestrian crossing (if there are no pedestrians) so I am visible by all the lanes of traffic behind me. It is something I have always done. It is illegal but most cyclist seem to do the same thing.