We are 2000 miles into tandem life on our used Bilenky and have found that it really works for us. Our bike has a set of 700c 48 spoke Hugi hubbed wheels that we would like to replace with something much lighter. We are a 290-300lb team. I tend to keep things a long time and for that reason ride Campy on my road bike and Kings on my mountain bike. I have priced a set of Phil wheels. I am not that excited about the King hubs for this application as it seems they use the same hub body as regular wheels with different axle spacing. I also have been looking at the Bontragers with the Swiss Hugis as they seem to be a bargain on E bay.
We will be riding mostly unloaded, and will have the old wheels if we want to load up, so I am curious about spoke counts. I am getting conflicting information telling me to go 40/40, 40/36, 36/36, 36/32. I will not say I am totally price insensitive so I am looking for a value for something that will be faster but durable as well. Any and all help is appreciated, thanks.
waterrockets
09-22-06, 02:31 PM
First, I'll say the Rolfs seem to be pretty popular in this group. Reasonably durable considering the weight.
Second, why do you want lighter wheels? How much is one pound savings going to help with a 300 lb team plus a 35 lb. bike? I'd stick with your more durable wheel and spend that money on a solo fixie bike or something.
stapfam
09-22-06, 03:02 PM
First, I'll say the Rolfs seem to be pretty popular in this group. Reasonably durable considering the weight.
Second, why do you want lighter wheels? How much is one pound savings going to help with a 300 lb team plus a 35 lb. bike? I'd stick with your more durable wheel and spend that money on a solo fixie bike or something.
Will agree about the lightweight wheels being not required. What you want on a Tandem is strength and that does not come light. However- If you want to get some quality wheels- Go to a Wheelbuilder and see what he can recommend. I am not a lover of a lot of the So Called quality "Off the peg" wheels. They may have a name but but the bit of quality some of them have- comes at an expensive price for what they are.
.
I ride an offroad Tandem with 26" wheels. There is no way that I could even contemplate going to a light weight wheel- even for road use. Go for a quality hub and if you Go to a wheel builder- think in terms of a "Freeride" rim as we would call it offroad. On a 26" wheel we could get away with 36 spokes but I would look at 40 both front and rear on a 700 wheel.
For comparison- I Use Hope Bigun hubs, 36 spoke on a full downhill quality rim. Theses are not light in any way but in 3 years and 5,000 miles they have not let our 400lbs all up weight down- even at 50mph+ on offroad descents. Put them in for service this year and One of the rear bearings had gone so I replaced all 3- The rear wheel was out of true but the front only needed a spoke retension. That back wheel seems to take the punishment.
Edit- before you say it- I am the stoker and I am the lightweight half of the team
twilkins9076
09-22-06, 03:51 PM
Unless you want to race, I also question the need for light wheelsets on a tandem. Seems like the marginal weight difference you would receive would not be worth the risk of failure, even though you're a light team. It's still not going to make much of a difference climbing, or off the line. I'm convinced that going fast on tandems is more about skill, technique, and teamwork than equipment.
For what it's worth, we're a 280 lb team, and are content to run 48 spoke wheels on our steel Burley. Could we get lighter if we wanted? Yes, by ditching the handlebar bag, the rear rack and trunk bag, the suspension seatpost, as well as the camera case and other accessories we always have with us that help make tandeming a fun and enjoyable experience for both of us. Even then, we would still have a somewhat heavy bike, so why bother?
I understand, however, that everyone has different reasons for tandeming, and that lighter wheels might be right for you. If so, I would also recommend the Rolf's. We test rode a bike with them, and the entire package was good, but the bike probably had a lot to do with that.
sfsailor
09-22-06, 04:10 PM
We do not plan on racing but feel that the ride and acceleration will be noticeable on a wheel set with a lower spoke count. In my experience small savings in rotating weight can very noticeable in ride quality and acceleration. From discussions that I have had with wheel builders this seems to be the case.
Maybe I should rephrase the question by asking what everyone else is riding and their team weight.
Retro Grouch
09-22-06, 04:10 PM
[QUOTE=sfsailor]I am getting conflicting information telling me to go 40/40, 40/36, 36/36, 36/32. /QUOTE]
If you think that you'll ever take a tandeming vacation I'm a strong believer in using the exact same rim front and rear. If you ever trash a wheel while on tour, it'll be the rear and nobody will have either a replacement wheel or a 40 hole or whatever rim you need. If they match, you can have your front rim laced onto your rear hub and buy whatever front wheel is available to ride home on. Incidentally, this actually happened to a close personal friend of mine.
sfsailor
09-22-06, 04:12 PM
She likes her five speed grocery bike
TandemGeek
09-22-06, 09:09 PM
We presently have three sets of 700c wheels:
2 sets of 36h Phil Wood hubs, one set built with Mavic CXP33 rims (no longer available) and another with Velocity Deep Vs. We also have a set of 36h White Industries Racer-X hubs with Velocity Deep Vs. We weigh in about 280lbs not including the bike and ride light... no racks or panniers except on tour.
Bontranger's RaceLite Tandem wheels seem to be holding up far better than the Rolf's as we cointinue to read about broken spokes on the Rolfs as well as a more recent problem with broken front hub flanges. However, in that you've mentioned wanting wheels that are "much lighter", bear in mind that the Bontragers are not all that light. They offer some degree of aero advantage and are fairly robust, but you can have conventional wheels built up that will be a bit lighter. For some comparisons, here's a link to a list of wheelset weights that I posted here on BikeForums a while back: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2554831&postcount=6
Off the cuff, and given what you've provided in terms of your intended use and team weight, I'd take a look at a conventional set of 36h Velocity Deep V's built up with 14/15/14 DB spokes and the best hub you can reasonably afford: White Industries tandem hub (light, very good reliability/customer service, and not obscenely expensive); Chris King (light, excellent performance but a bit pricey); Phil Wood (excellent performance, but not light and on par with Chris King pricing.
Also agree with same spoke count front & rear.
cornucopia72
09-22-06, 09:58 PM
Just last Sunday a light tandem team had a broken spoke on the back Rolf wheel. We are a 310 lb team and use a wheelset of Shimano's sweet 16s. We had a lot of problems early on with lose spokes and out of true wheels. By trial and error we increased the tension gradually and haven't had any issues for about 1,500 miles. We are happy with the wheels now.... knock on wood.
TandemGeek
09-23-06, 06:16 AM
We are a 310 lb team and use a wheelset of Shimano's sweet 16s.
Of course, if you don't have a tandem with 160mm rear spacing, the Shimano/Santana Sweet 16s aren't an option... at least not without making a significant modification that voids their warranty...
steveknight
09-23-06, 11:21 AM
hand built wheels are a must they will hold up far better. http://www.spinlitecycling.com/index.htm been real happy with his wheels tell him what your after and he can build it and they stay true.
zonatandem
09-23-06, 04:22 PM
A sub-250 lbs. tandem team. Using 32H front, 36H rear Chris King hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims and DT Revolution spokes on a Zona c/f tandem; 13,000+ miles so far, no problems.
Super durability/pricey: Phil hubs . . . 56,000 miles on Phil hubs on our previous Co-Mo custom, not a problem. 36H front/rear. Front wheel original, rear wheel replaced rim 4 times.
Quality/workmanship lasts . . .
waterrockets
09-23-06, 08:35 PM
We do not plan on racing but feel that the ride and acceleration will be noticeable on a wheel set with a lower spoke count.
You'll get a placebo boost out of it, but in a double-blind test, you will never ever be able to feel the weight difference. Never.
A guy at a shop over in rec.bicycles.tech swaps empty for full 28-oz water bottles randlomly and lets people ride with them and without them. Nobody from a spindly lightweight woman to experienced Cat 2 racers have been able to feel the 3.5 lbs. difference accelerating hard while in the saddle. You can maybe feel it out of the saddle swinging the bike, but that has nothing to do with actual performance.
You also won't be able to feel a ride difference. Spoked wheels are essentially radially rigid. There is a minor amount of movement radially, but it's very small, and the difference between various wheels is even smaller. The amount of air that leaks out when you pull the pump off will make more of a difference in the ride than the wheel. Again, if you're swinging the bike a lot, you may feel it, but that's an insignificant portion of your riding time, and we're not talking about lateral stiffness.
If you're looking for a smoother ride, drop 5psi. It will make a huge difference in ride, and a very minimal difference in performance.
Low spoke-count wheels look pretty cool though.
Richbiker
09-25-06, 10:28 AM
http://www.chucksbikes.com/store/
http://www.chucksbikes.com/store/
Velocity tandem wheels. Pretty good prices. I haven't used them. Maybe lighter than what you are currently using, but still pretty stout with 40 spokes
ElRey
09-25-06, 11:15 AM
I've been riding the Bontrager tandem wheels for 18 months, maybe 7000 miles. They are VERY sturdy. Since you want to lose some weight, the "build 'em up" approach isn't the way to go. You already have a heavy, stodgy, non-aero set of 40 zillion spoke wheels, so get something else. Try some 23mm tires as well.
waterrockets
09-25-06, 12:35 PM
Since you want to lose some weight, the "build 'em up" approach isn't the way to go.
True that more spokes makes the wheel heavier, but FWIW, you can handbuild build wheels just as light and strong as the more expensive boutique wheel "systems" out there. If you handbuild a wheel with a lighter rim & hub, with fewer spokes, it will weigh less. There's not some magic dust that makes a boutique wheel have a better strength/weight ratio.
That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with boutique wheels either. They're just too far on the wrong side of the cost/benefit curve for me. If they all cost $300/pair, I'd probably ride them full time.
merlinextraligh
09-25-06, 02:38 PM
Ok, I get the point about the limited return from ultra light low spoke count wheels on a tandem. So what's the happy medium between traditional 48 spoke tandem wheels, and Sweet 16's ( 340 lb team weight)?
zonatandem
09-25-06, 05:15 PM
Handbuilt and stressed, 36 spokes, front and rear would do with a nice set of rims/hubs/spokes.
TandemGeek
09-26-06, 05:26 AM
So what's the happy medium between traditional 48 spoke tandem wheels, and Sweet 16's ( 340 lb team weight)?
Same as previously stated.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=3101942&postcount=8
36h on Velocity Deep-Vs are every bit as strong as most 40h wheels using traditional box section rims, assuming both wheelsets are properly constructed by a competent wheel builder.
For teams that approach 400 lbs, consider 40h Deep-Vs if you plan on running 28mm tires or 40h Velocity Dyad, the latter being better suited for larger diameter tires.
ElRey
09-26-06, 08:15 AM
waterrockets, why don't you tell us a good build that will compete with a set of Bontragers and costs $300? I'll buy them tomorrow. I have a set of Dyads built 36x on Hugi hubs, they're not in the same league with the Bontragers, not as aero, not as light, not as stiff. Not as nothing. Maybe a hundred bucks less.
waterrockets
09-26-06, 11:35 AM
waterrockets, why don't you tell us a good build that will compete with a set of Bontragers and costs $300? I'll buy them tomorrow. I have a set of Dyads built 36x on Hugi hubs, they're not in the same league with the Bontragers, not as aero, not as light, not as stiff. Not as nothing. Maybe a hundred bucks less.
Define "compete."
How are you measuring stiffness? Radially, you can not tell the stiffness difference between wheelsets. Tire pressure makes way too big of a difference. Even the way the bead holds the tire makes a bigger difference.
If you're looking for a wheel to make your bike faster, good luck measuring that.
$340 seems impossible sourcing tandem parts retail, but if I could buy them wholesale (like if this was my job), I could beat $300 for sure. I built my solo wheels for $300, and they'll last me for 30,000 miles. I could also go the route of using cheap older XT hubs, re-spaced, but I don't want any controversy over rear durability (and I wouldn't ride them anyway).
Here's a build for you: $384 total for the wheelset, weights from measured weightweenies list when available:
=============================
2x Velocity Deep V rims: 1160g, $110
Shimano HF-08 40h hubs: 832g, $200
Nipples: 40g
Spokes: 317g, $100
=============================
[b]2349g, for $384[b]
The Race Lites are listed at 2245g on their site. On weightweenies, the tandem wheels aren't listed, but Bontrager's average measured weight is 5.4% higher than their claim.
So let's call the Race Lites 2366g measured, with the average error.
It also looks like the Race Lites cost $850 (wheelset).
The Deep-V 40h 3-cross will be MUCH stronger than the Race Lites. The hub bearings will be lower rolling resistance than the sealed Bonti units, and the wheels weigh about the same (I won't claim less, since they're so close).
Aerodynamically, the Deep-V is a more aero rim, but has nearly 2x the spoke count. I'll call that a wash. Besides, in an MIT study, not wearing gloves made a bigger aero difference than nice TT wheels, so there's not much to the whole thing anyway.
Anyway, those Bontis are cool looking, but don't really offer anything tangible over the customs.
tuolumne
09-26-06, 01:35 PM
Wow, with 275+ lbs of stuff attached to my tandem besides my own 150 lbs, I don't pay much attention to what the wheels weigh. I just don't want to bust a spoke in the middle of nowhere with 4 small children in tow.
TandemGeek
09-26-06, 01:42 PM
You'll get a placebo boost out of it, but in a double-blind test, you will never ever be able to feel the weight difference. You also won't be able to feel a ride difference.... How are you measuring stiffness? Radially, you can not tell the stiffness difference between wheelsets.
Help me here; I need some context and background info. I see lots of theorhetical citations and references to scientific data which is all fine well and good. I'll also be the first to admit that a bicycle wheel is a bicycle wheel; tandems do not law violate the laws of physics, mechanical properties, or basic wheel design standards. That said, a tandem team will still beat the hell out of wheel if a wheelsmith tries to build a tandem wheel the same way he builds a wheel for a single bike.
So, back to context and experience. While I see evidence of outstanding single bike riding experience / abilities, as well as lots of enthusiasm, and a willingness to offer your insights on bicycle wheel construction, what I'm not seeing is much in the way of first hand knowledge and experience with 700c tandem wheels. In fact, and maybe I've missed something, you first posted here last May after buying a 26" wheeled Burley Samba off of Craig's List that at last check was still being tweaked in July and, beyond that, I don't recall reading much in the way of anecdotal tandeming experience.
Therefore, with regard to your various observations and recommendations on tandem wheels it would be beneficial to know:
- how many miles have you've logged on a tandem as captain or stoker?
- how many of those were on 700c wheeled tandems?
- what was the range of total team weights on the tandems you've ridden?
- how many different types of wheelsets have you used on a 700c tandem?
- how many tandem wheel failures have you personally experienced and what were the causes?
- how many tandem wheel failures have you witnessed or perhaps repaired and what were the causes?
- how many tandem wheelsets of any size have you built?
- how many of the tandem wheelsets that you have built were for people other than yourself?
- what's the heaviest team you've built a set of tandem wheels for and how many miles have they logged on those wheels?
- how many tandem wheelsets have you built that came back with problems and what was the root cause of the problems; build quality or perhaps something else?
Again, you can't go wrong by parroting what you've read or seen so long as you're using well-respected references, e.g., a well-built 48h wheel is pretty much indestructable as are well built 40h wheels and even 36h wheels. However, what I struggle with are opinions regarding the very subjective qualitative and empirical aspects that can only be gained from first hand experience. After all, humans aren't instrumented test fixtures and some things must be experienced before drawing conclusions based on parametric data.
Moveover, the palcebo effect ain't all that bad if the one experiencing the effect is inspired enough to turn it into a Pygmalian Effect, aka. a self-fulfilling prophecy. In other words, if putting "fast wheels" on your tandem makes you feel as though you're able to ride faster, longer, or easier and otherwise enjoy riding your tandem more than you did before upgrading your wheels, the chances that you'll actually be able to ride faster, longer, and easier are significantly higher than if you did nothing at all. Ergo, fast wheels may actually make a given team stronger riders if only because they inspire them to ride more often and with a little more enthusiasm.
Just my .02.
Bill G
09-26-06, 03:07 PM
Help me here; I need some context and background info.
No offence ment by this, but like I said before in another post.......
Well sir you are quite the informed guy about tandems, tandem trivia and all the ends and outs about tandems, I quess we can not argue or debate with that.
I also agree with what you wrote listed below concerning fast tandem wheels.
Originally Posted by TandemGeek
In other words, if putting "fast wheels" on your tandem makes you feel as though you're able to ride faster, longer, or easier and otherwise enjoy riding your tandem more than you did before upgrading your wheels, the chances that you'll actually be able to ride faster, longer, and easier are significantly higher than if you did nothing at all. Ergo, fast wheels may actually make a given team stronger riders if only because they inspire them to ride more often and with a little more enthusiasm.
Take care, :)
Bill G
ElRey
09-27-06, 05:35 AM
If you can't tell the difference between that build and a set of Bontragers, you should stop giving advice. I guess if you can't power the thing past 15mph the spoke count alone might not be noticeable. Hugi hubs to that Shimano hub? WHy is it I'm sure you've never ridden a set of Bontragers? My stoker isn't even a cyclist and she can tell the difference.
waterrockets
09-27-06, 07:01 AM
I'll admit I have little tandem experience. Probably 100 miles in three rides as a captain. Two different tandems, one 700c, and one 26". No wheel failures or repairs. More experience to come.
I have a TON of experience building, riding, and maintaining solo bikes. Maybe two or three tons. I'm doing a lot of extrapolation of my experience and what I read to formulate my opinions regarding tandem wheels.
I have ridden (for complete rides or more) Bontis, Rolfs, ACs, Cosmics, Ksyriums, and countless handbuilts. When seated, you can not tell the difference between any of these wheels (unless one of the boutiques happens to break a spoke during the test).
My 32/36h Deep-Vs sit on my solo. I can kick the tar out of anyone who's not as fit as me. The wheels don't slow me down. In the King of Jester hill climb, I was right in the middle of the field of all the high-dollar wheels.
I understand it's tough to be objective about a $850 purchase you've already made. I also understand that the Race Lites work fine. They just don't offer any tangible benefits to justify 2.5x the money.
ElRey
09-27-06, 07:13 AM
dude, every major tandem mfg. uses wheels such as the Bontragers on their top-of-the-line racing models. There's a reason. Maybe they can answer the "why" better than I.
waterrockets
09-27-06, 07:24 AM
If you can't tell the difference between that build and a set of Bontragers, you should stop giving advice. I guess if you can't power the thing past 15mph the spoke count alone might not be noticeable. Hugi hubs to that Shimano hub? WHy is it I'm sure you've never ridden a set of Bontragers? My stoker isn't even a cyclist and she can tell the difference.
Ok. Enjoy your wheels :D
waterrockets
09-27-06, 07:47 AM
dude, every major tandem mfg. uses wheels such as the Bontragers on their top-of-the-line racing models. There's a reason. Maybe they can answer the "why" better than I.
For racing, with a fit team, it can make a difference. I don't deny that. The difference is still very very small. At the level most of us are working at, it doesn't matter. It makes us feel better. Lance could have won the entire 2005 Tour racing on my 32/36h Deep Vs -- climbs, TTs, pave, everything. 3/4 of a pound just wouldn't take enough time off his performances.
It's like my TSX vs. say, a Corvette. There are drivers who can't drive a Corvette on a curvy course as fast as I can drive my TSX. The machine just doesn't make that big of a difference. Now if you took two NASCAR drivers, the one in the Vette would destroy the one in my TSX.
Of course, Corvettes will always be more fun to drive than my TSX, and they look much nicer, but at 2x the money...
TandemGeek
09-27-06, 12:37 PM
I'll admit I have little tandem experience. Probably 100 miles in three rides as a captain. Two different tandems, one 700c, and one 26".
That is what is referred to as the bottom line as this is, after all, the Tandem Cycling sub-forum.
waterrockets
09-27-06, 01:13 PM
That is what is referred to as the bottom line as this is, after all, the Tandem Cycling sub-forum.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that tandems aren't bicycles or anything. Might as well be talking about figurines, huh?
merlinextraligh
09-27-06, 02:43 PM
For racing, with a fit team, it can make a difference. I don't deny that. The difference is still very very small. At the level most of us are working at, it doesn't matter. It makes us feel better. Lance could have won the entire 2005 Tour racing on my 32/36h Deep Vs -- climbs, TTs, pave, everything. 3/4 of a pound just wouldn't take enough time off his performances.
Ok, you lost me at the TT part, the aero advantage of a disc and a trispoke, vs conventionally spoked wheels would have been enough to at least cost him the 2003 TDF, and possibly others including the 2005 (altough he didn't use a disc inthe last TT in 2005). But I agree with your point about weight.
Jinker
09-27-06, 03:20 PM
That is what is referred to as the bottom line as this is, after all, the Tandem Cycling sub-forum.
Nice.
How about some facts?
Any wheel, from the roughest, toughest 40 spoker to a featherweight 16 spoke aero TT wheel is INCREDIBLY stiff vertically. Short of spoke failure, the amount of vertical compliance present in any wheelset is miniscule compared to the difference in dropping or raising your tire pressures by 5psi. Steel spokes just don't stretch that much (lengthwise) before they snap.
Lateral stiffness (or rather the lack thereof) may be noticeable when out of the saddle, swinging the bike side to side.
In terms of weight, when rolling on flat ground, an extra pound or two on the wheels is essentially meaningless.
In acceleration, the LARGEST possible contribution wheel weight makes (if the entire difference in wheel mass is at the outer edge of the rim) is twice as large as any other part of the bike. If your stoker gains 5 pounds over a season, it'll make a bigger difference.
In climbing, a pound on the bike (or riders) is a pound. It's strictly power to weight.
We've come to aero drag.
From everything I've read, going from a regular spoked wheel to the most aero bladed spoked wheels makes less of a difference in a TT than wearing a rough set of gloves on some TT bars, and far less drag than a regular bike helmet vs. an aero helmet. Over 80% of the aero drag on a bike is from the rider. Of the rest of the aero drag, a huge amount is from the frame and tires themselves. It just doesn't leave a lot of drag for the wheels.
Yeah, it'll make a measurable, repeatable difference in a TT, but can you really FEEL a 30 second difference over 40 kilometers?
waterrockets
09-27-06, 04:04 PM
Nice.
How about some facts?
Any wheel, from the roughest, toughest 40 spoker to a featherweight 16 spoke aero TT wheel is INCREDIBLY stiff vertically. Short of spoke failure, the amount of vertical compliance present in any wheelset is miniscule compared to the difference in dropping or raising your tire pressures by 5psi. Steel spokes just don't stretch that much (lengthwise) before they snap.
Lateral stiffness (or rather the lack thereof) may be noticeable when out of the saddle, swinging the bike side to side.
In terms of weight, when rolling on flat ground, an extra pound or two on the wheels is essentially meaningless.
In acceleration, the LARGEST possible contribution wheel weight makes (if the entire difference in wheel mass is at the outer edge of the rim) is twice as large as any other part of the bike. If your stoker gains 5 pounds over a season, it'll make a bigger difference.
In climbing, a pound on the bike (or riders) is a pound. It's strictly power to weight.
We've come to aero drag.
From everything I've read, going from a regular spoked wheel to the most aero bladed spoked wheels makes less of a difference in a TT than wearing a rough set of gloves on some TT bars, and far less drag than a regular bike helmet vs. an aero helmet. Over 80% of the aero drag on a bike is from the rider. Of the rest of the aero drag, a huge amount is from the frame and tires themselves. It just doesn't leave a lot of drag for the wheels.
Yeah, it'll make a measurable, repeatable difference in a TT, but can you really FEEL a 30 second difference over 40 kilometers?
Wow, I feel like I wrote this. I don't have dual logins, honest.
gregm
09-27-06, 05:19 PM
Any wheel, from the roughest, toughest 40 spoker to a featherweight 16 spoke aero TT wheel is INCREDIBLY stiff vertically. Short of spoke failure, the amount of vertical compliance present in any wheelset is miniscule compared to the difference in dropping or raising your tire pressures by 5psi. Steel spokes just don't stretch that much (lengthwise) before they snap.
The vertical weight of the bike/rider due to gravity is supported by spokes, under tension, below the hub. The hub does not hang from spokes above.
If you apply enough weight to the wheel to overcome the tension of the spokes between the hub and the ground, then those spokes can loosen.
Even before you overcome the tension entirely, the spoke will be allowed to relax and bend slightly, particularly at the hooked end. Over time, this will fatigue the metal, and the spoke will eventually break.
Spokes don't break from being pulled apart.
See Jobst Brandt's book "The Bicycle Wheel" or Peter White's Web site.
-Greg
TandemGeek
09-27-06, 08:49 PM
Might as well be talking about figurines, huh?
You're missing the point... but then again, you can't see the forrest for the trees as you seem to be more interested in entertaining yourself and satisfying your needs than you are in helping others to meet their needs or achieve their goals.
Let me take a step back and volunteer that I may be missing out on something here. However, I'll go out on a limb and suggest that I suspect the reason most people post questions to a tandem forum or listserve is to engage with those who have gone through the learning process with tandems and had far greater exposure to the machines and community than the folks who they could interact with in more general bicycle lists or perhaps in the Mechanics sub-forum here at BikeForums.net.
Therefore, when someone who owns a tandem asks, “what do you think of these wheels and what wheels do you use on your tandem” I’m guessing that they asked that question on a tandem list in the hopes that someone might answer who owns or has used them or perhaps has ridden with others who do.
Case in point....
The original poster wants to buy a second set of wheels that are "lighter" than the very heavy wheels he currently has on their tandem. They're a lightweight team looking to get feedback on what other tandem teams are using for wheels, to include some feedback on the Bontrager wheels that show up for around $500-$600 on Ebay now and again.
So, you recommend Rolf's tandem wheels even though you have never ridden a set because some folks here seem to like them. However, you then decide it's time to get back into your comfort zone regarding general wheel design, performance and cost/benefit analysis because that's what YOU would rather talk about. Did the OP indicate that they're on the fence regarding new wheels and would like to be talked out of it? Did the OP indicate they'd like to buy or have any interest in riding a fixed gear solo bike? Mind you, most of us diverge a bit from the question at hand but at some point most address the basic question or at least frame their alternative recommendations based on their experience riding tandems.
No so with you my friend. You troll around BikeForums seaching for any thead that mentions wheels and seemingly can't wait for someone to mention "rotating mass" or the like so you can jump in with your refererence to someone else on the Web who conducts a double blind test, to discuss acceleration, aero drag, and to regurgitate all that's ever been published regarding going faster on a bicycle and then ending with a final condescending remark. I believe the common term for taking a thread off track and down dirt roads is "hi-jacking" as evidenced by the inability to tie the original question to the discussion that follows. Speaking of which.... we now have completed the circle:
Nice. How about some facts?
Let me guess? Given the complete lack of tandem content, your regurgitation of the same canned tripe as Waterrockets, and the lack of interest in responding to the OP I must also assume that you are some type of accomplished solo cyclist who also doesn't have much if any first hand experience with tandems?
Great, two cyclists who between the two of them have probably ridden a tandem less than a couple hundred miles that want to design the perfect solo time trial bike in the middle of a thread on the Tandem Cycling sub-forum.
Give me a friggin' break.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that tandems aren't bicycles or anything.
Let me be clear here. While tandems aren't that complex, they are decidedly different than solo bikes. Therefore, while someone may have TONS of solo bike experience, much of it is meaningless when it comes to offering objective critiques and recommendations on wheels or anything else regarding a tandem bicycle... That is unless you happen to weigh over 300 hundred pounds, generate in excess of two-times the normal wattage of a solo cyclist, and your solo bikes have a wheelbase that's 1.8x longer than normal that put massive amounts of torque, vertical loads, as well as massive cornering or side loads on your wheels during sprints, out of the saddle climbs, and under other demanding conditions. Of course, it would also help if you occasionally had a problem with "bouncing” on your saddle when you pedal as you'd find out yet another interesting cause for rear wheel spoke breakage on tandems.
But, more than just the mechanics and machines, the disposition of people who ride tandems -- that is the teams who "click" and ride them as much as they can -- are quite different than those who ride solo bikes. While there are some "killer tandem teams" out there they are the exception and not the rule. Like most single bike riders, most of the teams can't justify the use of lightweight frames or components but that's not the point, now is it? Few who own Porches, Ferraris, or Corvettes can justify them. Likewise, a large number of the very expensive carbon and Titanium tandems are not owned by Cat 2 racers in their prime or folks who hold USCF Masters licenses, they're the pride and joy of empty nesters and grandparents who can ride 50 - 100 miles a healthy clip that decided to spoil themselves with a really nice and lightweight tandem. Why? Because they've reached a point in their lives where they can afford to do so.
So, when your average tandem team wants to "spiff up their ride" with a set of wheels that make the bike feel lighter, that's what they want and it's certainly achieveable. Will any of the performance stuff really make a team stronger or faster? That depends. But, while the performance changes are small, they are in fact noticeable enough to make teams smile and sometimes all the evidence you need.
Jinker
09-27-06, 11:28 PM
I won't quote what tandemgeek posted, but I'm responding essentially to what he's saying here.
What I wanted to communicate is that from a performance perspective, the vast majority of wheels, for the vast majority of riders, are for all intents and purposes equal. Other factors should be considered first.
With the exception of time trialists, IMO, durability should be the top concern when picking a tandem wheel. Assuming a bulletproof wheel, weight and lateral stiffness would come next, and aero factors a distand third. Actually scrub that, aerodynamics are such a small factor, looks would probably come before that, for me.
A nice set of wheels is an important part of an appealing bike. An appealing bike usually gets used more. I agree with Tandemgeek that everyone's got their own dream bike and life's probably too short not to have it. ;)
Artmo
09-28-06, 04:04 AM
We are a 350lb team and use Bontrager tandem wheels which have given us no problems.
waterrockets
09-28-06, 07:07 AM
<snip of some depressurization>
Let me be clear here. While tandems aren't that complex, they are decidedly different than solo bikes. Therefore, while someone may have TONS of solo bike experience, much of it is meaningless when it comes to offering objective critiques and recommendations on wheels or anything else regarding a tandem bicycle... That is unless you happen to weigh over 300 hundred pounds, generate in excess of two-times the normal wattage of a solo cyclist, and your solo bikes have a wheelbase that's 1.8x longer than normal that put massive amounts of torque, vertical loads, as well as massive cornering or side loads on your wheels during sprints, out of the saddle climbs, and under other demanding conditions. Of course, it would also help if you occasionally had a problem with "bouncing” on your saddle when you pedal as you'd find out yet another interesting cause for rear wheel spoke breakage on tandems.
So you're saying 40H Deep-V tandem wheels I spec'd above aren't strong enough for a tandem? Or is it that they would be strong enough if I had more tandem experience?
ElRey
09-28-06, 07:38 AM
"...from everything I've read..."
Guys, this isn't a theoretic discussion. I have several sets of tandem wheels. I don't have to read about the differences: I swap them on and off, ride, and experience the differences. Then try to share that with those who ask.
I'll say it again: every major tandem Mfg. uses Bontrager/Rolfe/Sweet 16 type wheels on their top-of-the-line racing applications. This is not my opinion. It's a fact. Since you don't like my rationale for that, I invite you to ask the Mfgs yourselves.
I know guys who think a pair of Open Pros laced to Ultegra hubs represents the zenith of wheel science, if they're hand built by their hero Joe Wheeldude. I'll take a pair of Zipp 909s any day. I've had both.
TandemGeek
09-28-06, 08:40 AM
So you're saying 40H Deep-V tandem wheels I spec'd above aren't strong enough for a tandem? Or is it that they would be strong enough if I had more tandem experience?
For the team that posted the original question, they're overkill. I'll elaborate this evening if I feel so inclined and I think others might benefit.
For the OP who I believe is riding a 145mm rear spaced tandem, 36h Deep V with DB spokes laced 3x is more than adeqate. While I'm biased towards conventional wheelsets, the Bontragers ($519 on Ebay when last I checked) would also be great wheels.
Forget about the Rolfs if they don't come as OEM on your tandem. While there are many teams, big and small who have had great success with them, there are just too many other teams that ride them hard -- lightweight teams included -- who continue to struggle with durability issues, spoke breakage as well as front hub flange breakage. However, to Rolf's credit: (1) none of the failures have resulted in a collapsed wheel, (2) even with the failed spokes and hub flanges the wheels still got them home. Moreover, (3) Rolf's customer support folks get rave reviews and have fixed the failed wheels under warranty, and (4) they continue to incorporate improvements to address the weaknesses, e.g., a new front hub without the weight-saving drillings. However, several of the teams we ride with who have the Rolfs that had problems are now carrying around a second set of conventional spare wheelsets when they travel to rallies (just in case) and/or using the spare conventional wheelsets when they go touring away from home.
galen_52657
09-28-06, 11:13 AM
dude, every major tandem mfg. uses wheels such as the Bontragers on their top-of-the-line racing models. There's a reason. Maybe they can answer the "why" better than I.
Could just be the 'bling' factor to sell bikes.... But that's just my jaded opinion....
woog
09-28-06, 11:40 AM
I know guys who think a pair of Open Pros laced to Ultegra hubs represents the zenith of wheel science
Have we met? :rolleyes:
galen_52657
09-28-06, 12:09 PM
Lemme jump in here....
First, I can easily tell the ride difference between a set of factory-engineered low-spoke count wheels and a set of 32 hole box-rimmed wheels on my single. My Ksyriums have way more spoke tension and ride much harsher than my standard 32 hole wheels. How that would translate to a tandem, I not too sure. As the captain, I don't feel a whole lot of anything.
Now as far as speed and performance go, I have found the biggest performance differences come when I ....change out the stoker! But really, when the regular stoker is 'stoked' to ride, that's when we go the fastest.
If you are riding a 28 mm wide tire, I am not so sure how much aero advantage you would get with low-spoke count wheels. From the studies I have read, the narrow tire on TT bikes supplies most of the aero advantage.
ElRey
09-28-06, 12:16 PM
Friedrich Von Schiller had it right...
waterrockets
09-28-06, 03:05 PM
For the team that posted the original question, they're overkill. I'll elaborate this evening if I feel so inclined and I think others might benefit.
Nope, the overkill opinion doesn't need any elaboration. As usual, I have to say "what's the harm in 4 more spokes?" but I understand where you're coming from.
waterrockets
09-28-06, 03:07 PM
Lemme jump in here....
First, I can easily tell the ride difference between a set of factory-engineered low-spoke count wheels and a set of 32 hole box-rimmed wheels on my single. My Ksyriums have way more spoke tension and ride much harsher than my standard 32 hole wheels.
Interesting. I couldn't feel a thing. I rode the same tires, tubes, inflation pressure, and bike. Many different wheels in the last year. Only carbon wheels feel any different to me because of the vibration transmission. I can't feel the radial stiffness at all.
Numb butt?
regomatic
09-28-06, 05:19 PM
We're very happy with the Bontrager Race Lites that came on our second hand Trek. They look cool, and we've have had no maintenance or failure issues with them.
I can't really say for sure that the wheels or the bike make us go any faster because they're, lighter, stronger, or more expensive. I do know that we have increased our efforts as a team since we've upgraded our equipment. I think that's a factor in how lots of other riders perceive benefits, tangible and not, from their purchases. We've made an investment in this better bike or component, we need to ride harder, further and faster to make the investment worthwhile, like self fulfilling prophecies.
The motor(s) with higher power to weight ratio, will have much more effect on speed and efficiency than any marginal advantage gained from shaving a few ounces off spinning weight.
Here's a pair of Race Lites on an Ebay auction that ends tonight;
I don't know if the O.P. is still following this thread but I will chime in with my 2 cents. We ride a Co-Motion with 48 spoke Phil Wood hubs laced to Velocity Dyad rims. About 2 years ago we put a set of Bontrager Race-Lite wheels on the tandem because we got them at an exceptional price. I can't say we noticed a huge improvement in our speed because of the wheels. We both felt they were faster but this was probably the placebo affect as much as anything else. What we both noticed was the tandem seemed less stable. We also noticed under hard braking the fork would shudder. We never had this problem with the original wheels. Maybe we got a set of wheels that weren't tensioned properly or had some other problem. Many teams ride these wheels and seem to love them. We ended up selling them on Ebay for more than we originally paid for them. We will likely have a set of conventional 36 spoke wheels built up to try next. Do we expect to obtain a much higher level of performance with new wheels? Not really. We are passionate about cycling as a lifetstyle. Most of our disposable income is spent on bicycle or motorcycle related items. I am somewhat of a gadget / gear freak and like trying new / different equipment. So somewhere down the road we will try another set of wheels on our tandem and it will hopefully make us at least look and feel faster if nothing else.
ElRey
09-29-06, 04:41 AM
waterrockets, for a guy who starts out by saying he has 100 miles of tandem experience, you sure are pouring on the baseless opinions. Your single experience has no real applicability as you say you can't tell the difference in stifness between a set of Mavic K's and a set of training wheels. Next to a rear disk, the K is the STIFFEST wheel I ever rode and I've raced them all - in the Dolomites, Alps, Pyrennes, Ardennes, the cobbles of France, Belguim, Holland, Austria, Germany, etc.... You don't lead the league here in single experience.
We have a guy here asking about a faster set of wheels. And some of us, with actual experience, were trying to share with that person so they might be better able to make some decisions.