Bicycle Mechanics - AGGGH!!! I screwed up my wheel! HELP!

Well, I just finished my intermediate bike repair class and decided to true up the rear wheel on my Giant OCR2. After a frustrating hour I've gone from having a wheel with a tiny wobble to having one that's so whopper-jawed that it won't even spin between the brake pads. I've also successfully rounded several nipples to the point that I can't even get a set of pliers to turn them.:mad:

So.......(sheesh)........:mad:
1. Is there any chance that the nipples on this bike are backwards threaded or am I just cognitively challenged enough that I'm turning them the wrong way?

2. Can I buy new nipples and if so, where?

3. Should I give up and take it back to the LBS and have them rebuild the wheel or take another stab at it after I've cooled my heels and head for a while?:(

Well, I just finished my intermediate bike repair class and decided to true up the rear wheel on my Giant OCR2. After a frustrating hour I've gone from having a wheel with a tiny wobble to having one that's so whopper-jawed that it won't even spin between the brake pads. I've also successfully rounded several nipples to the point that I can't even get a set of pliers to turn them.:mad:

So.......(sheesh)........:mad:
1. Is there any chance that the nipples on this bike are backwards threaded or am I just cognitively challenged enough that I'm turning them the wrong way?

2. Can I buy new nipples and if so, where?

3. Should I give up and take it back to the LBS and have them rebuild the wheel or take another stab at it after I've cooled my heels and head for a while?:(
1. Possibly cognitively challenged. The nipples all turn the same way, but it does depend from which direction you view them. From the top (inside the rim) they turn clockwise to tighten. So use your screwdriver to turn that way. From outside the rim, turn them counterclockwise (the opposite direction) with the spoke-key to tighten them. If I am not concentrating, I can get confused, too.

2. Yes, bikeshops have nipples. Buy a heap, just in case. They also usually come with new spokes. Take one of the originals along to ensure you get the right length of nipple.

3. Possibly take it to the LBS, but instead try loosening off all the spokes, replace the rounded off nipples (they will come off easier when all the tension goes from the other spokes in the wheel) and start again. Be patient. Remember the principles. Refer to Sheldon Brown's website and print off a guide copy of his wheel-building page and have it beside you. Once you get over which way to turn the nipples, you should be right.

Read up on wheel truing online. Nothing is a substitute for experience, so I'd try it on a junk bike (pick one up somewhere) before you do it on your dream machine. Here's what I know:

1. Yes, in a way.. looking down on the rim from the hub (along spokes, not looking at the tread of the tire), you need to turn the nipple counter-clockwise to tighten it. They aren't reverse threaded, but you are turning the "bolt" from the opposite side.

2. Yeah, try http://www.webcyclery.com/home.php?cat=361 . If you can't true it, don't try rebuilding it (I presume this is what you wanted them for? Or did you round one or two off?).

3. Well, definitely don't try to rebuild it yourself.. and your LBS might charge you a lot if it needs to be rebuilt, but I kind of don't think it does.

EDIT: beat me to it.. I took a while to post that :)

Don't give up! As Rowan mentioned, take the tension down and start over, basically. Once you have several spokes out of whack and things get as messed up as it sounds like they are now, the best thing to do is de-tension the whole wheel and start again. Look for major problems in the rim when it is detensioned, like dips or bends. Then follow the basic principles to bring it into true and roundness as you bring up the tension. This is a learning process, and you are learning, so give yourself lots of time and lots of slack if it doesn't go well. If you start to get a bit cross-eyed or frustrated, put it aside and come back to it tomorrow. It's all about the journey. You will gain confidence and be proud of yourself when you bring that wheel back to roundness and true-ness, rather than admitting defeat. Once you accept the nature of the process, it becomes almost zen-like. Meditative and relaxing.

Here's something that helped me so much, I never again had a moment's doubt about which way to turn a nipple. Think of the spoke and nipple as a jar and lid. When the nipple is at the top of the wheel, it is just like a lid on a jar of peanut butter, and the spoke is the jar. So you turn the nipple righty-tighty, and lefty-loosey, just like a lid on a jar. Always at the *top* of the wheel. You would have problems with a jar lid too, if the jar were upside down, so always turn your jar rightside up--that is, have the nipple end at the top of the wheel. Then you'll know which way to turn it.

Edit--I just looked at your site (congratulations on your weight loss!!) and saw the photo of your Giant OCR2, and that's a very low spoke count. That makes this process quite a bit more challenging, but the principles are the same. Give it a try, bringing the tension up slowly, because you'll need to be pretty sure of your spoke tension. You could just get it as close as possible and then have your LBS or local wheelbuilder check your work.

You have been given excellent advice. I just want to add that you may want to leave your pliers out of the game and use the proper tool. Bicycle fasteners tend to be on the delicate side to keep the weight down.

Big kudos on the weight loss!!

I have always found that replacing one or 2 spokes or nips to be harder than relacing the whole thing....its just me.

But have to agree that it may be best to get professional help. then learn to true and build on another wheel. Its easier to start w a clean sheet of paper . Plus, it will not keep you from riding because your only wheel is kinky :)

It sounds like you're at the point where you're making things worse, so… you can always loosen all the nipples (one turn at a time) so that there's just one thread showing on each spoke. Now, assuming that the spokes are the correct length, this gives you a starting point. From there, tension, true, stress-relieve, tension, true, stress-relieve, tension, true, stress-relieve, check-dishing, tension, true, stress-relieve, tension, true, stress-relieve, check-dishing… repeat until satisfied.

Oh, by the way - the first step in truing a wheel is to put a spot of oil on each nipple where it touches the rim.

Good Luck!

- Wil

I've found the best way to true is by working on one distortion at a time. Use a piece of chalk to mark where the rim begins to distort (i.e., go out of true), then rotate the wheel through the distortion until it ends - mark the rim there too. Now count the number of spokes in between the chalk marks. Adjust the middle spoke(s) the most, and adjust less and less as you move away from the centre of the distortion.

For example, if there are 5 spokes between the chalkmarks thus: <chalkmark> [spoke 1] [spoke 2] [spoke 3] [spoke 4] [spoke 5] <chalkmark>. You might turn [spoke 3] 1/2 turn clockwise, [spoke 2] and [spoke 4] 1/4 turn counter-clockwise, and [spoke 1] and [spoke 5] 1/8 of a turn clockwise.

Of course this presumes you know whether to tighten or loosen [spoke 3]. However, since spokes seldom tighten on their own, it's likely you'll need to tighten it. And since spoke nipples are normal right-hand threads, you tighten by turning clockwise.

Wheel truing isn't too tough if you tackle one distortion at a time, use chalk (or other mark) to define your work area, and remember to make small adjustments. A good truing stand, one that's properly calibrated, helps. A dishing tool is also nice to have.

One last thing. Worn wheel bearings can sometimes cause your wheel to look as though it's untrue. If you haven't changed your bearings in some time and/or have been carrying a heavy load, your wheel can wobble just like an untrue wheel. If you're convinced you're doing a good job truing your wheel, but it just won't get/stay true, try changing your wheel bearings.

First, forget the stupid "righty-tighty/leftie-loosie" technique. Learn the "right-hand rule" for threading. Similar to electro-magnetism in physics. Grab the spoke in your right palm. Orient your thumb in the direction you want to move the nipple. Point your thumb towards the hub to tighten, towards the rim to loosen. Your fingers will then aim in the direction you want to spin the nipple.

This will allow you to turn the nipple correctly if you're staring down from the rim or looking up from the hub, or looking at the wheel from the side.

If you've got alloy nipples, get those *$#@-ing things off there. Brass is the way to go. Everything else oxidizes badly and makes for an unmaintainable wheel.

Who cares about the weight of brass? I was tearing the crap out of a bunch of light wheelsets on the ATC ride in Austin today. 36H brass-nippled Deep Vs right here, brother. They're much blurrier than the lighter wheelsets ;)

The spoke tensiometer is one of the more expensive tools, but is well worth its cost even if you dont plan on building wheels. Wheels which are true when they are bearing no weight, will flex all over the place when loaded, if they dont have enough tension on them.

I don't think anybody has mentioned this yet, but make sure you have the right sized spoke wrench.
And when you get the replacement nipples make certain that they are the same size as your current ones,
having different sized nipples on the same wheel is miserable.
Remember, to be patient.
Cool off for a day, then come back to it with conviction and a healthy respect for how easy it is to round off a nipple.
One turn of one spoke at a time, then check, then move to the next spoke and repeat.

Good luck

Wow--
Thanks for all the great advice! I'm out of town this week but when I get back, I'll losen the spokes up, replace the nipples (at least the ones I've rounded) and give it another whirl!
Thanks again!

Hey Dewbert, where abouts in Central Indiana are you from? and what shop do you usually go to?
I'm over just west of the airport, in myself.

First, forget the stupid "righty-tighty/leftie-loosie" technique. Learn the "right-hand rule" for threading. Similar to electro-magnetism in physics. Grab the spoke in your right palm. Orient your thumb in the direction you want to move the nipple. Point your thumb towards the hub to tighten, towards the rim to loosen. Your fingers will then aim in the direction you want to spin the nipple.

This will allow you to turn the nipple correctly if you're staring down from the rim or looking up from the hub, or looking at the wheel from the side.

Yep, this is by far the best method for any fastener. Works especially well when you are under a car and you have to loosen or tighten something in an awkward location.

The only time it ever failed me was on the bolt holding the serp belt tensioner on my Saab. I broke the bolt and was scratching my head. Learned the bolt is left hand threaded! The new one had all kinds of markings saying it was LH, the old one had no markings. On this bolt, I use the left hand rule and it works like a charm!

Learn the "right-hand rule" for threading. Similar to electro-magnetism in physics. Grab the spoke in your right palm. Orient your thumb in the direction you want to move the nipple.


Brilliant! I've never heard this before. Thank you!

Something else to do is drop by your local thrift store(s) and purchase several bicycles and practice on them before you go mucking about with a real wheel. That’s how I got started. Later you can build a few to give away or strip and sort the different materials and sell them for scrap and actually make a few bucks.

First, forget the stupid "righty-tighty/leftie-loosie" technique. Learn the "right-hand rule" for threading. Similar to electro-magnetism in physics. Grab the spoke in your right palm. Orient your thumb in the direction you want to move the nipple. Point your thumb towards the hub to tighten, towards the rim to loosen. Your fingers will then aim in the direction you want to spin the nipple.

There is an easier way to remember the correct direction.

When turning the nipple imagine that you are putting a lid (the nipple) on a jar (the spoke). The spoke threads (jar opening) points towards the rim.

If you think about the problem like this, you don't have to think of spokes as threaded backwards.

BTW, don't give up. You have simply incurred an educational expense. I guarantee you won't make that same mistake again.

I have done this before myself. It's easy to forget which way you are going as you have to reverse your "direction" once the wheel is underneath you .

I like the idea of using the right hand rule for threads.

If it's really screwed up, loosen everything and start over again. Make sure you are using the right size spoke wrench (green, red, black). And you can always remove the tire and use a screw driver on the end of the nipples.

It's ok to make wheel truing mistakes if you can learn from your mistakes. But you do not seem to have a clue as to what went wrong so maybe it is best if you take the wheel to a professional. Perhaps they will let you watch the process.

Well, I actually do know what went wrong. In fact, I just finished a class and have trued 3 wheels prior to this one. This one just got the best of me. You're right, too. I've learned a lot from this mistake. I'm sure I'll get it fixed up once I get some new nipples!:D

You need a spoke wrench that holds all four sides of the nipple snuggly. Be sure the wrench is all of the way on the nipple before turning. A drop of light oil on each nipple can save you a lot of frustration.
Nothing wrong with using aluminum alloy nipples, they're on the best wheels.

Al

Hey Dewbert, where abouts in Central Indiana are you from? and what shop do you usually go to?
I'm over just west of the airport, in myself.
I'm in Danville and I usually go to BGI northside. It's close to my office.

You need a spoke wrench that holds all four sides of the nipple snuggly. Be sure the wrench is all of the way on the nipple before turning. A drop of light oil on each nipple can save you a lot of frustration.
Nothing wrong with using aluminum alloy nipples, they're on the best wheels.

Al
Three sides. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to get the spoke wrench past the spoke. Unless you're ahead of Park in the spoke wrench development stakes.

Well, I'm pleased to update the group with a success story. I went to the LBS, bought a new spoke wrench and picked up some extra nipples. In the end, one of the nipples was damaged so badly that it wouldn't even turn with vise grips. So, I ended up taking all the spokes loose and pushing the damaged nipple backwards through the wheel. At this point, the wheel was pretty much dissasembled. I used the other wheel as a guide and rebuilt the thing and I'm glad to say that it's both true and round at this point. I'm going to readjust my back shifter after lunch and my bike will be back on the road this afternoon.

Thanks for all the advice and everyone was right. This has been a tremendous learning experience. In the end I understand much more about my bike and I'm more confident in messing around with the thing!

Thanks again.
Dewbert

[QUOTE=wildjim]Rowan: Wrong

I have the "new" Park Four Sided Spoke Wrench. It works well. . .
[QUOTE]

As you say, new. Apologies.

:eek:
Well, I just finished my intermediate bike repair class and decided to true up the rear wheel on my Giant OCR2. After a frustrating hour I've gone from having a wheel with a tiny wobble to having one that's so whopper-jawed that it won't even spin between the brake pads. I've also successfully rounded several nipples to the point that I can't even get a set of pliers to turn them.:mad:

So.......(sheesh)........:mad:
1. Is there any chance that the nipples on this bike are backwards threaded or am I just cognitively challenged enough that I'm turning them the wrong way?

2. Can I buy new nipples and if so, where?

3. Should I give up and take it back to the LBS and have them rebuild the wheel or take another stab at it after I've cooled my heels and head for a while?:(

the LBS is your friend. minor truing of wheels really isn't all that hard. the process should be intuitive after a brief explanation.

stick to what you do well and take the wheel to the LBS, imo :eek: .

ed rader

Well, I'm pleased to update the group with a success story. I went to the LBS, bought a new spoke wrench and picked up some extra nipples. In the end, one of the nipples was damaged so badly that it wouldn't even turn with vise grips. So, I ended up taking all the spokes loose and pushing the damaged nipple backwards through the wheel. At this point, the wheel was pretty much dissasembled. I used the other wheel as a guide and rebuilt the thing and I'm glad to say that it's both true and round at this point. I'm going to readjust my back shifter after lunch and my bike will be back on the road this afternoon.

Thanks for all the advice and everyone was right. This has been a tremendous learning experience. In the end I understand much more about my bike and I'm more confident in messing around with the thing!

Thanks again.
Dewbert
Hey Dewbert, OT I know, but you're quite the patient achiever, aren't you? I just visited the front page of your website. Congrats! I can now see why you persisted with the wheelbuild and succeeded. :D

Congratulations!! What a wonderful bit of news! That wheel was a real challenge, with such a low spoke count, so you deserve to feel very proud of your achievement! As Rowan pointed out, you are a person who knows how to take on a challenge and create your own success. That trait will serve you *very* well in your bicycle repair endeavors. Thank you so much for letting us know how it turned out!

Well, I'm pleased to update the group with a success story. I went to the LBS, bought a new spoke wrench and picked up some extra nipples. In the end, one of the nipples was damaged so badly that it wouldn't even turn with vise grips. So, I ended up taking all the spokes loose and pushing the damaged nipple backwards through the wheel. At this point, the wheel was pretty much dissasembled. I used the other wheel as a guide and rebuilt the thing and I'm glad to say that it's both true and round at this point. I'm going to readjust my back shifter after lunch and my bike will be back on the road this afternoon.

Thanks for all the advice and everyone was right. This has been a tremendous learning experience. In the end I understand much more about my bike and I'm more confident in messing around with the thing!

Thanks again.
Dewbert


Congrats on the fix. Though I have to say that undoing the spokes is only really necessary if there was too much tension to begin with.

If you round any more nipples (and you probably will) than it is sufficient to just cut the spoke in question. Then lace a new one in there and use the adjacent spokes to "guesstimate" the correct tension. Then proceed in truing the wheel laterally than vertically. There is no need to take loosen the whole bunch to replace a single spoke.

Congrats on the fix. Though I have to say that undoing the spokes is only really necessary if there was too much tension to begin with.

If you round any more nipples (and you probably will) than it is sufficient to just cut the spoke in question. Then lace a new one in there and use the adjacent spokes to "guesstimate" the correct tension. Then proceed in truing the wheel laterally than vertically. There is no need to take loosen the whole bunch to replace a single spoke.

I agree completely. However; my LBS is an hour away and I didn't have any extra spokes. It was getting late and I couldn't fathom another drive to the LBS (and the associate gas bill) and figured that taking the thing apart was the best (albeit complicated) solution.

I agree completely. However; my LBS is an hour away and I didn't have any extra spokes. It was getting late and I couldn't fathom another drive to the LBS (and the associate gas bill) and figured that taking the thing apart was the best (albeit complicated) solution.

It sounds to me as if this has been a good learning experience. Wheel building and repairing requires a good dose of patience. Your confidence will build with more experience. I'd recommend a tension gauge if you plan to do much wheel work. The Park TM-1 is a good buy at about $55.

Al

You could argue, I suppose (but I won't, at least vehemently) that the contact points on a four or three-sided wrench still amount to two. And that if there is any damage to a nipple, getting the wrench on is well nigh impossible. I have found this with the standard Park nipple wrench, especially when the brass has "wrapped around" to the next face of the nipple.

Park Does Have A New Spoke Wrench That Sort Of Holds All Four Sides. It Is Still Slotted To Clear The Spoke, But Has A Square Portion To Fit The Nipple More Securely That Has To Be Slid Down Over The Nipple, Not Placed Sideways On The Nipple. I Have Not Used It Yet, But My Lbs Is Getting Some In Next Week.
Edit: Oops, someone beat me to this bit of news. Sorry!