Advocacy & Safety - When you're riding on the roadway, how do you appear to motorists?

When you're riding on the roadway, how do you appear to motorists?

vehicle driver
Do you act like and appear to be a vehicle driver... someone with the same rights and responsibilities on the same roads as drivers of vehicles?

rolling pedestrian
Or do you act like and appear to be a "rolling pedestrian"... someone with different rights and responsibilities on roads from those of drivers of vehicles and pedestrians? In particular, you have a right to be on the road, but it's not the same right as other vehicle drivers. In particularly, you have a responsibility to stay out of the way of vehicular traffic as much as is reasonably possible, not just when faster traffic happens to be traffic, but all the time. You belong "out of the way", near the outside edge, in the bike lane, in the shoulder... In fact, you have a special right that to that space.

I appear to be a big fat guy on a bicycle who just climbed out of a hole on Chernobyl.

Of your options above, I am both, but 99% of the time I'm a vehicle driver. On my commute there is a 200 yard stretch where I must ride a sidewalk to reach the MUP, otherwise I'd have to ride 3 miles, taking full lane, on a major Parkway where motorists hit each other at least 2 times a day.

Depends on the bike and the location and how I chose to ride.

However in all modes I ride in a vehicular manner... but how motorists perceive me is vastly different.

When I ride my beach cruiser and wear shorts and a Hawaiian shirt, I am treated in a different manner than when I wear a kit and ride fast on my Sannino. Much of it has to do with my speed and appearance rather than my road position... the latter of which is pretty consistent.

I act like a vehicle but I answered "other" because I don't really know how I appear to cars. I guess it depends on who you ask.

Many seem to believe I'm handicapped and riding a hand-cycle. Others probably think I'm a UFO. All I know is when I ride a recumbent trike or recumbent bike I'm given more respect than when I ride an upright bike. And I cannot presume to know exactly why that is.

I appear to be a big fat guy on a bicycle who just climbed out of a hole on Chernobyl.

Of your options above, I am both, but 99% of the time I'm a vehicle driver. On my commute there is a 200 yard stretch where I must ride a sidewalk to reach the MUP, otherwise I'd have to ride 3 miles, taking full lane, on a major Parkway where motorists hit each other at least 2 times a day.
You have no choice but to be a rolling ped when on the sidewalk, and that's fine.

My question is about how you act when you're on the road.

... Others probably think I'm a UFO ...

You mean UGO (Unidentified Grounded Object)...

I present myself as a confident and legitimate vehicle driver. How others see me is anybody's guess. Who cares what cagers think? How can their inner thoughts harm or help me? No matter what they think, I have as much right to be there as they do!

You have no choice but to be a rolling ped when on the sidewalk, and that's fine.

My question is about how you act when you're on the road.

When on the road, I try to blend in and be another vehicle. Though sometimes I do not get the respect of other vehicles. Sometimes I'm "better" than most other vehicles around here because the operator of my bike uses signals, comes to complete stops, and knows that the big fat white line on the road is where you are supposed to stop and not just a major paint spill.
The problem around here, or so it seems to me, is that there are very very few bike commuters, sometimes I feel I'm the only one. So motorists are not familiar with people on bikes who ride in a vehicular manner. Most all others on bikes are people out for joy rides, homeless folks, and DUI bikers; all of which have no respect for obeying traffic laws because like many of the motorists, they feel that a bike is not a vehicle so why should they obey "car" laws.

When you're riding on the roadway, how do you appear to motorists?


From the reaction of the bloke who said, "Where did you spring from?", I can only assume the Starship [sexually active] Enterprise

No matter what they think, I have as much right to be there as they do!

Do they know that... Do they treat you like a fellow user of the road or as some object that they need to avoid, and pass as quickly as possible with little consideration for theirs or others' safety as they do so?

Do they know that... Do they treat you like a fellow user of the road or as some object that they need to avoid, and pass as quickly as possible with little consideration for theirs or others' safety as they do so?
Do you mean "pass as soon as possible" rather than "as quickly as possible?" They pass quickly, but then cars are a lot quicker than bikes. But I rarely see them passing too soon to be safe.

Most cagers are a little more courteous than they need to be. Like they wait for us to go first at intersections, even when they have the right of way.

Not that I agree 100% with your choice of words for rolling pedestrian, I chose that one because many of the comments are correct in my context. For me, the shoulder is MY LANE. By that I mean I am on the shoulder, except in unusual circumstances; and the solid white line between the car lane and the shoulder means cars should be on the shoulder only in unusual circumstances. Since I ride predominantly in rural and rural suburbs, this happy medium seems to persist.

roughstuff

I am invisible.

I appear to be an infidel.

When you're riding on the roadway, how do you appear to motorists?

vehicle driver
Do you act like and appear to be a vehicle driver... someone with the same rights and responsibilities on the same roads as drivers of vehicles?

rolling pedestrian
Or do you act like and appear to be a "rolling pedestrian"... someone with different rights and responsibilities on roads from those of drivers of vehicles and pedestrians? In particular, you have a right to be on the road, but it's not the same right as other vehicle drivers. In particularly, you have a responsibility to stay out of the way of vehicular traffic as much as is reasonably possible, not just when faster traffic happens to be traffic, but all the time. You belong "out of the way", near the outside edge, in the bike lane, in the shoulder... In fact, you have a special right that to that space.

If motorists are used to seeing us as drivers of vehicles, making vehicle-like maneuvers, following the same rules they follow, they will expect us to behave as vehicles.

If I can understand that bicycles are vehicles that can be ridden in the lane with traffic, so can motorists. If I can understand that bicycles can also be ridden in bike lanes, on shoulders, or bicycle facilities in addition to the street, so can motorists.

I appear to be a big fat guy on a bicycle who just climbed out of a hole on Chernobyl.

Of your options above, I am both, but 99% of the time I'm a vehicle driver.

I could not have described my appearance any more eloquently than that.

I am vehicular most of the time, but there are stretches of my rides were auto don't/won't recognize my soverignty as a vehicle. Those spots I ride in the street, but move over when being passed to avoid being road-kill.

I operate as a vehicle, because bikes are vehicles, and as an operator I follow the law.

(a) Every person operating a bicycle upon a roadway shall ride as near to the right side of the roadway as practicable, exercising due care when passing a standing vehicle or one proceeding in the same direction.

So, as the law requires, I ride to the right side unless there's gravel on the side or any other possible hazard.

It depends...

To some women I appear as their sexual fantasy incarnate riding a bicycle. Then of course, there are the women who can actually see, to whom I appear as a sweat soaked, middle aged guy who refuses to shave his legs or beard.

I'm pretty much forced to be a 'rolling pedestrian' where I ride.

I'm a college student living just off campus and the route I take to school currently has 2 lanes closed causing lots of mess, and riding in the road would definently not work with the mass amount of college students driving, I would estimate that atleast half are talking on the cellphone while driving and a good percent of the rest are agressive drivers and even how traffic is slow allready, they don't want to be slowed down anymore by a guy on a bike. So right now I just ride along dodging everything that comes my way and weave back and forth on the sidewalks full of kids listening to their iPods and paying no attention. I seriously doubt a college education is going to teach these people about being attentive and courteous.

When I do want a nice ride I can go on campus in the late evening when everyone is gone.

When I cycle, I appear as a cyclist. Not a pedestrian, not a motor vehicle (of two, three, or four wheels), but a cyclist.

EDIT: I fail to see how one could appear as a vehicle driver when one is a cyclist. Do you have some holographic system which projects the image of a car around you attached to a dynamo hub?

How anybody interprets the appearance of either of these two riders is pure speculation based on whatever pre-conceived notions you may have about any number of things. This is pretty much what I look like.

In Ottawa, a bike lane is not "out of the way". It is part of the public road system and blended into part of the traffic, together with lanes for cars, trucks, OC Transpo buses, and later, LRT railway. Here in the City of Ottawa, bike lanes can be on the left side of the left lane, between traffic lanes, between traffic lane and bus lane, between bus lane and side walk, or between the curb lane and the shoulder, etc, in short, it can be in the middle of a multilane roadway. You are certainly not a rolling pedestrain riding on such a bike lane system. So, if you ride on the bike lanes, (both Municipal and Federal paths) you appear to be part of traffic (at least in Ottawa).

However, if you ride on the sidewalks, or on bus lanes, or on the Transit Ways, or anytime you do not ride your bike like a vehicle, you appear to be a cash cow to Government coffers.

When I cycle, I appear as a cyclist. Not a pedestrian, not a motor vehicle (of two, three, or four wheels), but a cyclist.

EDIT: I fail to see how one could appear as a vehicle driver when one is a cyclist. Do you have some holographic system which projects the image of a car around you attached to a dynamo hub?
A vehicle driver is a person, not a car.
What defines whether a cyclist appears to be acting like a vehicle driver, or a rolling pedestrian, is his behavior.

A vehicle driver is a person, not a car.
What defines whether a cyclist appears to be acting like a vehicle driver, or a rolling pedestrian, is his behavior.


That is your intepretation... to many a "vehicle" is a car... in spite of all your PC writings... sorry but most drivers think of "car" vice "motorist" and "bike" vice "cyclist." Anything else is to conform to the language used here... unlike that in the "real" world.

A vehicle driver is a person, not a car.
What defines whether a cyclist appears to be acting like a vehicle driver, or a rolling pedestrian, is his behavior.

That is your intepretation... to many a "vehicle" is a car... in spite of all your PC writings... sorry but most drivers think of "car" vice "motorist" and "bike" vice "cyclist." Anything else is to conform to the language used here... unlike that in the "real" world.
Don't get hung up on semantics.

We all conceive of countless concepts for which we don't even have labels in our language.

What the behavior of operators of moving vans, SUVs, sports cars, motor cyclists and farm tractors all have in common is such a concept, unlabled in most people's minds. Almost no one calls a motorcyclist a "driver", for example. But, in the interests of communicaton, and for lack of a better term, we label that concept as "acting like a vehicle driver". That that phrase is imperfect, that it conjures images of vehicles instead of the concept it is intended to refer to, is semantic and irrelevant noise, and beside the point.

What this thread is about is whether you ride in a way that is consistent with the concept "acting like a vehicle driver". It is not about what the words "acting like a vehicle driver" might mean to the average driver, who has the concept we mean to refer to in his head, he just doesn't refer to it as "acting like a vehicle driver". The problem is he doesn't refer to it with any words. It's an unlabeled concept in his mind. But it's there. The question is: do you fall into it, or not, when you're riding a bike on the roadway?

Don't get hung up on semantics.



Frankly I have to... that is the one strong lesson you have taught me... when I first started posted in BF, I did not know the names of various terms of which I was quite familiar... with over 30 years of on road experience. Since then you (and other VC cyclists) have taught me to be as technically correct as possible in my communications with you, et. al. Now the funny thing is... these are NOT the terms one might hear on the street. No one says "motorist," for instance, when refering to a car and driver... you instead hear "yeah, and this car did such and such... "

So for you to indicate "don't get hung up on semantics.... " frankly, I have to laugh.





We all conceive of countless concepts for which we don't even have labels in our language.

What the behavior of operators of moving vans, SUVs, sports cars, motor cyclists and farm tractors all have in common is such a concept, unlabled in most people's minds. Almost no one calls a motorcyclist a "driver", for example. But, in the interests of communicaton, and for lack of a better term, we label that concept as "acting like a vehicle driver". That that phrase is imperfect, that it conjures images of vehicles instead of the concept it is intended to refer to, is semantic and irrelevant noise, and beside the point.

What this thread is about is whether you ride in a way that is consistent with the concept "acting like a vehicle driver". It is not about what the words "acting like a vehicle driver" might mean to the average driver, who has the concept we mean to refer to in his head, he just doesn't refer to it as "acting like a vehicle driver". The problem is he doesn't refer to it with any words. It's an unlabeled concept in his mind. But it's there. The question is: do you fall into it, or not, when you're riding a bike on the roadway?


The problem with what you say is that a motorist looks at you and in spite of your positition and your predictabilty... they tag you as "biker," and that is the first and foremost thought... beyond that... everything extends from there... based on how much you are impeding that motorist from their immediate goal... it really is that simple. No logic applied... it is all based on the "feelings" of the motorist at the moment.

I too feel that similar pull as a motorist... and then instantly apply logic to the situation... "internally" pulling myself from any "feelings" by countering my first impressions with "gee, do I really need to crowd this guy and what am I going to get by doing that." That is the very heart of my regular comments to you regarding how motorists feel about things rather than "think logically" about such things. Few motorists are going to apply logic... they are going to simply react to the moment with basal instincts... few of which are going to be "gee, a fellow vehicle user... "

Don't get hung up on semantics.

Frankly I have to... that is the one strong lesson you have taught me... when I first started posted in BF, I did not know the names of various terms of which I was quite familiar...

Don't confuse "coming to terms" with "arguing semantics". The former is critical to effective communication; the latter is the enemy of effective communication.

Coming to terms means achieving a mutual understanding about the meaning of phrases and terms being used. There is no right and wrong in this process. By convention, it seems to be most effective to usually go with the intended meaning of the person who originally used the term or phrase in the relevant context. For example, Forester basically introduced the term "vehicular cycling" to the American cycling culture, so it only makes sense to go with his intended meaning of it.

Arguing semantics is something else again. Arguing semantics is arguing about what terms or phrases "should" mean. For example, me arguing with Bek that he should say "DLLP" instead of "powerweave" is a waste of time. We both know he means the method I refer to as DLLP when he says "powerweave". Why argue about it?



Now the funny thing is... these are NOT the terms one might hear on the street.
Sure, but that doesn't matter, since we're talking about concepts, and the terms we use are just labels, shortcuts if you will, so we don't have to keep describing the entire concept in detail every time we refer to it.


The problem with what you say is that a motorist looks at you and in spite of your positition and your predictabilty... they tag you as "biker," and that is the first and foremost thought... beyond that... everything extends from there... based on how much you are impeding that motorist from their immediate goal... it really is that simple. No logic applied... it is all based on the "feelings" of the motorist at the moment.

This is a very interesting paragraph, because first you say they tag you as a "biker", using a specific term, and then you talk about "it is all based on the 'feelings' of the motorist"... more of a vague concept each motorist has in his mind. I think that you would agree that the concept that each motorist conjures about a cyclist when he notices a cyclist, is not the same. Some may actually think linguistically, "biker", but most probably won't even conceive of a specific word, unless perhaps there is someone else in the car, and they want to point us out... "hey, look at that biker with all the whacky lights". But he could just as easily say, "hey, look at that guy with all the whacky lights". But whether he uses "biker" or "guy", or doesn't say anything at all, nor assign any particular label to us, the concept any one motorist has when he sees us is the same. What that concept is, and how it compares to other concepts that motorist holds, regardless of what he calls them, if he even has a label for them, is what I'm trying to get at in this thread.


Few motorists are going to apply logic... they are going to simply react to the moment with basal instincts... few of which are going to be "gee, a fellow vehicle user... "
Yes, I agree most motorists are simply going to react. But they don't react directly to us. They react to the concepts they have of us in their minds, what they perceive about us, and that's what I'm trying to get at... how our behavior affects what concept they associate with us in their minds when they notice us (assuming they even notice us!), and which behavior causes which conceptual association.

In the long run, I'm also very interested in how we can shape the formation of new concepts they may associate with at least some cyclists when they see us act vehicularly in traffic.

All drivers have probably have concepts for the following labels in their minds

unpredictable scofflaw cyclist
Spandex ******
whackjob messenger
predictable, serious cyclist
driver
vehicular cyclist - a cyclist who rides on roads according the vehicular rules of the road
rolling pedestrian - a cyclist who rides on roads according to the pedestrian rules of the road
etc., etc., etc.

Now, I don't pretend to know exactly how the mind works, but from my own experience, and from everything I've read, any time anyone sees something, how they perceive it largely depends on what concepts they associate with that something. The attributes that something has that we notice causes us to conjure concepts with similar attributes.

So, ultimately, what I'm trying to get at in this thread is to get everyone to think about how their own behavior while in traffic affects what concepts motorists associate with us. I just can't accept that every motorist associates exactly the same concepts with every cyclist he sees. No motorist has just one concept, let's label it "biker", and that's all he perceives every time he notices any cyclist. Now, he may have some initial concepts that come to mind the first second he sees any cyclist, but others surely fill in. That's what I'm interested in, and what I can do so that the concepts his mind associates with his perception of me increases the likelihood that he will treat me with respect and as a vehicle driver.

In particular, do I want to be perceived as (the unlabeled concept of what we refer to as a) vehicular cyclist, or as a (unlabeled concept of what we refer to as a) rolling pedestrian? And what do I need to do to increase the likelihood that we be perceived as vehicular cyclists rather than rolling pedestrians, and are treated accordingly?

with head, it is ALL demented semantics, Gene.... he is willing to dispense REALLY BAD AND DANGEROUS advice just to prove a semantic arguing point...you know the drill.....to see him post to 'not get hung up on semantics' is funny, in a pathetically self-ignorant type of way.


how do i appear to drivers? like an angry, vocal, disapproving, militant VC bicyclist that uses velotransit lanes, lane markings and bike lane stripes, etc, to my advantage. I ride in bus only lanes. i blow lights, but ONLY if other drivers at the light are getting all 'huffy' because a bike is as fast as a car in congested city traffic...if one of them revs the engine at the lights, or advances on the tree because i am anticipating the light, i BLOW THRU the red if it is clear.

i run the red to show the fokkers that, yes, indeed, it is faster and more convienent on a bike. sometimes, in congested traffic at signals, i will pull out my wallet, grab some twenties, and fan my face with them. Drivers HATE that. or maybe, it just makes them think.....

i have an 'irrational reaction' that is a viscereal response to other vehicle drivers that don't respect my bicycling rights to the roadway. i also will 'educate drivers' that cut off pedestrians or otherwise pull boneheaded moves.

i think i appear as an angry, militant guy on a bike. ready to fly the bird, screeam and yell, and tell the drivers what a bunch of polluting, terrorist supporting, camelhose sucking gashogs they are, willing to encourage american deaths by their unthinking waste of petrol. idiots. gashuffers. polluters. terror supporters, all.

i honestly think i scare some people sometimes. and i'm on a bike! but my rational bad reaction to drivers is apparant.

Good thread. I voted for the 1st one. Shouldn't there also be the question & maybe a poll on how we think motorists see us, asking the same questions?

When you're riding on the roadway, how do you appear to motorists?

vehicle driver
Do you act like and appear to be a vehicle driver... someone with the same rights and responsibilities on the same roads as drivers of vehicles?

rolling pedestrian
Or do you act like and appear to be a "rolling pedestrian"... someone with different rights and responsibilities on roads from those of drivers of vehicles and pedestrians? In particular, you have a right to be on the road, but it's not the same right as other vehicle drivers. In particularly, you have a responsibility to stay out of the way of vehicular traffic as much as is reasonably possible, not just when faster traffic happens to be traffic, but all the time. You belong "out of the way", near the outside edge, in the bike lane, in the shoulder... In fact, you have a special right that to that space.



I "appear" as a cyclist on the road.

i hope i appear as a bicyclist angry and capable enough to pull them out of their cars, and make them suck on their tailpipe for a few minutes, just to make them know how i feel about their self centered spoiling of the environment. i really dislike americans' psychotic addiction to frivolous or unecessary personal automobile trips and that includes a LOT of daily driving i see.


fanning my face with twenties as i ride by, hands free, looking disaprovingly and reproachfully at drivers stuck in traffic or at lights, is my favorite way i like to appear to motorists.

i hope i appear as a bicyclist angry and capable enough to pull them out of their cars, and make them suck on their tailpipe for a few minutes, just to make them know how i feel about their self centered spoiling of the environment. i really dislike americans' psychotic addiction to frivolous or unecessary personal automobile trips and that includes a LOT of daily driving i see.


fanning my face with twenties as i ride by, hands free, looking disaprovingly and reproachfully at drivers stuck in traffic or at lights, is my favorite way i like to appear to motorists.


No. really. Don't be shy, just say what you think.:D

I answered #1, as a vehicle driver.

When on a narrow or shoulderless roadway, I typically ride 18-24" left of the fog line (more than that if there's a door zone).

When on a roadway with a wide shoulder or bike lane, I typically ride 12-24" to the right of the line (transitioning to the left of it if there's a door zone or debris).

I'm pretty assertive about defending my position, especially on narrow roadways. I'll intentionally move left to force overtaking traffic to move left, and I'll sometimes take the center and indicate with a backward facing palm that they are not to pass (e.g., if there's oncoming traffic).

However, if I have a wide comfy shoulder or BL in which to ride, I see no need to ride in the traffic lane...doing so doesn't enhance my safety, it doesn't reduce the number of flats, and Dynamic Weaving(tm) requires more work. Of course, YMMV, and I'm sure there will follow yet another Wall of Words explaining why this is not so. :rolleyes:

What this thread is about is whether you ride in a way that is consistent with the concept "acting like a vehicle driver".

Most other "vehicle drivers" operate their vehicles in a straight line...i.e., no Dynamic Weaving(tm), unless they're drunk. Insisting upon a Dynamic Weaving approach would seem to be inconsistent with the way most other "vehicle drivers" operate upon the roadways.

i think i appear as an angry, militant guy on a bike. ready to fly the bird, screeam and yell, and tell the drivers what a bunch of polluting, terrorist supporting, camelhose sucking gashogs they are, willing to encourage american deaths by their unthinking waste of petrol. idiots. gashuffers. polluters. terror supporters, all.

You left out "lazy fat*sses". :D

i hope i appear as a bicyclist angry and capable enough to pull them out of their cars, and make them suck on their tailpipe for a few minutes, just to make them know how i feel about their self centered spoiling of the environment. i really dislike americans' psychotic addiction to frivolous or unecessary personal automobile trips and that includes a LOT of daily driving i see.

fanning my face with twenties as i ride by, hands free, looking disaprovingly and reproachfully at drivers stuck in traffic or at lights, is my favorite way i like to appear to motorists.Bek ... did someone hijack your account? Or are you being facetious? It doesn't sound like your usual self. Actually, I felt quite a bit like that yesterday after an incident. What's the deal with the twenties?

how do i appear to drivers? like an angry, vocal, disapproving, militant VC bicyclist that uses velotransit lanes, lane markings and bike lane stripes, etc, to my advantage. I ride in bus only lanes. i blow lights, but ONLY if other drivers at the light are getting all 'huffy' because a bike is as fast as a car in congested city traffic...if one of them revs the engine at the lights, or advances on the tree because i am anticipating the light, i BLOW THRU the red if it is clear.

i run the red to show the fokkers that, yes, indeed, it is faster and more convienent on a bike. sometimes, in congested traffic at signals, i will pull out my wallet, grab some twenties, and fan my face with them. Drivers HATE that. or maybe, it just makes them think.....

i have an 'irrational reaction' that is a viscereal response to other vehicle drivers that don't respect my bicycling rights to the roadway. i also will 'educate drivers' that cut off pedestrians or otherwise pull boneheaded moves.

i think i appear as an angry, militant guy on a bike. ready to fly the bird, screeam and yell, and tell the drivers what a bunch of polluting, terrorist supporting, camelhose sucking gashogs they are, willing to encourage american deaths by their unthinking waste of petrol. idiots. gashuffers. polluters. terror supporters, all.

i honestly think i scare some people sometimes. and i'm on a bike! but my rational bad reaction to drivers is apparant.

Wow. You are really scaring me here, Bek. Fanning your face with twenties? That's so weird it's almost funny.

y'all like that one? it's my pro biking advocacy message to all the gashuffers that, yes, bike riding does leave extra money in ones' pocket.

I've been pretty 'green' since i was a preteen, in the two decades since, i am becomming more militant every day as i see deaths in iraq escalate, world destabilization for oil interests, etc. daily.

Frivolous driving by americans, so immune from their impact of their consumer choices, is disgusting in its sloth.

here in puget sound, the largest single source polluter, both air AND water quality, is the family car. NOT industry, NOT power generation, NOT public transit, NOT delivery vehicles. it is the private automobile.

so it is my advocacy message of fanning my face with twenties a bit much? who cares, maybe it will get the gashuffing cagers that are denigrating the environment i live in to think a little......

Bek, I think a bumper sticker on your back about how saving money by cycling bought you a mansion might make more sense, even if less provocative.

I really don't care if motorists think I'm a vehicle driver or a rolling pedestrian. Either way, if they are thinking anything at all about me, they at least have seen me.

I just hope they are thinking maybe they could try what I'm doing, too. I know from the comments I actually hear from motorists that they are thinking things like, "Hey, that looks like fun" and "I should be getting in shape like you are" and "Wow, didn't I just see you on Coast Village road a minute ago? How did you get all the way here so fast?"

Most other "vehicle drivers" operate their vehicles in a straight line...i.e., no Dynamic Weaving(tm), unless they're drunk. Insisting upon a Dynamic Weaving approach would seem to be inconsistent with the way most other "vehicle drivers" operate upon the roadways.
Most other "vehicle drivers" can keep up with the flow of traffic all of the time. Comparing with them is comparing apples to oranges.

Cyclists should be compared to drivers of other slow moving vehicles, who regularly use "Dynamic Weaving(tm)", when safe and reasonble to do so, to allow faster traffic to pass.

like a psycho with a death wish! i.e. "what's that guy doing in the road? he must be nuts!"

i think most slow moving vehicles are supossed to safely keep to the right, helemt head.

playing "PEEK-A-BOO" with cars and trucks by using a powerweave for no good reason expept to play "SIKE the drivers so they maybe see me" is NUTS.

what a crappy advocacy message - "Play peekaboo with the cars behind you, you'll be safer." what a joke!

Most other "vehicle drivers" can keep up with the flow of traffic all of the time. Comparing with them is comparing apples to oranges.

Cyclists should be compared to drivers of other slow moving vehicles, who regularly use "Dynamic Weaving(tm)", when safe and reasonble to do so, to allow faster traffic to pass.

What you said before was: What this thread is about is whether you ride in a way that is consistent with the concept "acting like a vehicle driver".

Now, you're trying to change this thread to apply only to "slow moving vehicles"? Sounds like you're both weaving and waffling HH. :rolleyes:

FWIW, most other "slow moving vehicles" that I observe do not use "Dynamic Weaving(tm)", with the notable exception of drunk drivers and cell phone yackers.

Most of the slow moving vehicles I see are cyclists, and most of them are riding a predictable straight line (sometimes in the travel lane, and sometimes in the WOL or BL). When I've observed other slow moving vehicles (e.g., farm equipment and horses), they too have generally been operated in a straight line.

What kind of slow moving vehicles do you observe that weave back and forth into and out of the traffic lane (excluding yourself, of course).

What you said before was: What this thread is about is whether you ride in a way that is consistent with the concept "acting like a vehicle driver".

Now, you're trying to change this thread to apply only to "slow moving vehicles"? Sounds like you're both weaving and waffling HH. :rolleyes:
When cyclists are riding relatively slowly compared to other same-direction traffic (which is not always the case, and is certainly not the case when other same-direction traffic is absent), in order to act like vehicle drivers, they should follow the rules of the road for drivers of slow moving vehicles. Pardon me for not stating this explicitly in this thread, but I thought it was obvious.


FWIW, most other "slow moving vehicles" that I observe do not use "Dynamic Weaving(tm)", with the notable exception of drunk drivers and cell phone yackers.

Most of the slow moving vehicles I see are cyclists, and most of them are riding a predictable straight line (sometimes in the travel lane, and sometimes in the WOL or BL). When I've observed other slow moving vehicles (e.g., farm equipment and horses), they too have generally been operated in a straight line.

What kind of slow moving vehicles do you observe that weave back and forth into and out of the traffic lane (excluding yourself, of course).
I've seen bulldozer drivers pull over into bike lanes to allow faster traffic to pass (then moving back into the traffic lane after they passed) - while riding my bike I've passed bulldozers using the bike lane (technically illegally) on their left. It's common practice for farmers on tractors to move into the shoulder to allow cars to pass; they often move back fully into the roadway when the faster vehicles have gone by. On mountain highways with paved shoulders truckers often move partially into the shoulder on uphills, temporarily, to accomodate being passed by cars. San Diego has lots of hills and canyons, some with fairly wide residential streets. Get behind a cement truck going up one of these steep hills, and, once he notices you, if it's safe and reasonable for him to do so, he will move in closer to the curb to make it easier for you to pass.

Another example is parking meter cart drivers. Sure, while they are on their route, they keep to the right, because they are marking and checking every single parked car. But when they drive back to base, if they're on a fast arterial moving slower than other traffic, I've seen them move aside when safe and reasonable to let them pass.

Acting like a vehicle driver while operating a relatively slow moving vehicle often means moving back and forth into and out of the main part of the traffic lane to accomodate the passing of faster traffic. This is easy to overlook because the fast majority of vehicles are not slow moving.

When it comes to "modeling" of driving slow moving vehicles, cyclists should look at cement truck drivers on steep hills, and farmers on tractors, not at Ferrari drivers on freeways or pedestrians. Similarly, when it comes to "modeling" of driving relatively narrow vehicles, cyclists should look at motorcyclists for lane positioning examples, not at Hummer drivers or pedestrians. Motorcyclists are trained on how to use lane positioning to maximize conspicuity and predictability. Most of those same narrow vehicular rules apply to cyclists.

Bulldozers and cement trucks? Sheesh...you're really grasping at straws here.

Why should I model my behavior on a vehicle that's much larger than me, is too wide to fit into it a bike lane, and is generally not permitted there anyway?

I have seen tractors driven on wide shoulders...the drivers seem to understand that they're safer there than out in the traffic lane, and that driving in a predictable straight line is easier than Dynamic Weaving(tm).

Have you ever seen farm equipment driven on a freeway? Around here it's a pretty common sight, and I can assure you 100% of them stay completely on the shoulder, except for cases where the shoulder disappears (e.g., bridge crossings).

FWIW, I doubt you've ever actually seen "bulldozers" on the road...they're not legal on public roads, and their tracks would tear the sh*t out of most roadways.

Bulldozers on the road don't ride super far to the right because they really don't have to. And I'm sure it's not so easy to steer one of those straight enough to stay close to the edge anyway.

They definitely don't ride out from the right to try and make themselves visible, then pop back in as soon as whoever behind them has shown evidence of trying to make an avoidance maneuver. They pull over to let you pass when they are good and ready. Otherwise, they couldn't care less what's happening back there.

Acting like a vehicle driver while operating a relatively slow moving vehicle often means moving back and forth into and out of the main part of the traffic lane to accomodate the passing of faster traffic.

On a narrow roadway, sure.

But, if I have a 12' wide outer lane or bike lane, free of debris, why in the world would I want to be constantly weaving back and forth into the path of faster moving traffic?

Bulldozers and cement trucks? Sheesh...you're really grasping at straws here.
Why? They are typical slow moving vehicles.


Why should I model my behavior on a vehicle that's much larger than me, is too wide to fit into it a bike lane, and is generally not permitted there anyway?
The part of the behavior of the driver of a slow moving vehicle that is driven from his vehicle being slow moving is the part that applies. You need to be able to discern which behavior applies, and which is because of other factors. For example, you wouldn't model the wide turns a driver of a large slow moving vehicle has to make because his vehicle is large.


I have seen tractors driven on wide shoulders...the drivers seem to understand that they're safer there than out in the traffic lane, and that driving in a predictable straight line is easier than Dynamic Weaving(tm).
You asked me for an example, and I gave you a bunch. One of them was tractor drivers who "weave" back and forth between the road and shoulder in response to faster traffic.


Have you ever seen farm equipment driven on a freeway? Around here it's a pretty common sight, and I can assure you 100% of them stay completely on the shoulder, except for cases where the shoulder disappears (e.g., bridge crossings).
Guess what, when I'm cycling on a freeway I stay in the shoulder too. Duh.


FWIW, I doubt you've ever actually seen "bulldozers" on the road...they're not legal on public roads, and their tracks would tear the sh*t out of most roadways.
The bulldozers I see on the roads around here have tires, not tracks, like this one:

http://www.state.de.us/dss/surplus/photoalbums/may2006auction/images/bulldozer_jpg.jpg