Helmet...and?

[LittleBigMan]

Wearing a helmet, no lights, pitch dark--I passed this cyclist this morning at 6:30 a.m.

Why rant about someone else's cycling?

Somehow, people are hearing, "Wear a helmet," but not hearing, "Use lights." How are we failing them?

Nobody would drive their car without lights. We take that for granted. How is it the message never gets to some cyclists? How is it they get a partial safety message? (By the way, I've seen a police officer on a bike in the dark without lights, too. I asked him why, he said he didn't need them.)

[Bekologist]

i mention and 'educate' fellow bicyclists i see with helpful, humorous comments about thier lack of safety equipment.

i kid the fixie riders about their 'nice 'helmets' i.e. cycling caps, or just hair, and comment to darklighters how i can hardly see them and how blinkies make a bike much safer to operate at night....

[joejack951]

I've seen quite a few wrong way riders wearing helmets. A lot of good all those helmet advocates are doing :rolleyes:

[N_C]

When a cycling advocate advocates for things regarding cycling, they should advocate for everything. Not just helmets use or proper visability techniques or just for VC, etc.

You either advocate for everything or nothing at all, IMO.

[ghettocruiser]

Nobody would drive their car without lights. We take that for granted.

Ummm.. what? Unfortunately, this is simply not true on my route.

Which of course only strengthens the rest of your argument, as it is MORE reason to have lights on the bike.

All the reflective gear in the world is useless if cars do not have working headlights.

And needless to say, cars without working lights, (although I usually only see two or three per evening) tend to be overrepresented in other forms of erratic driving as well.

[Brian Ratliff]

When a cycling advocate advocates for things regarding cycling, they should advocate for everything. Not just helmets use or proper visability techniques or just for VC, etc.

You either advocate for everything or nothing at all, IMO.

Unfortunately all this stuff costs money. Us advocates must really get on some of their nerves when we "advocate" that all cyclists should spend money on lights, helmets, "proper" bicycles, "VC" training, etc. Just a thought...

There are people who are enough on the edge that a $16 blinker tail light is simply not part of the balance sheet, much less a $30 helmet or a $200 class or a $550 "proper" bicycle. At least here, in Portland, we have campaigns which give away free helmets, and many times, when a cyclist is pulled over for not having lights, they are given some lighting by the police officer. If you want to "advocate for everything," many times that means providing everything as well.

So, when can I find a simple utility bike with built in lights, fenders and rack of solid construction which costs under $200? I think that this is the end game of cycling advocacy. But first the roads and drivers on those roads need to become more bike friendly. Otherwise, transportational cycling will forever be in the relm of the rich and upper middle class. But take heart, fine cycling advocates. There is no such thing as the "chicken and egg" problem. Evolution, which our roads and drivers are undergoing, very nicely takes care of this as long as there are still people playing the game and pushing society towards the reacceptance of bicycling for transportation. :)

[vrkelley]

Somehow, people are hearing, "Wear a helmet," but not hearing, "Use lights." How are we failing them?

Nobody would drive their car without lights. We take that for granted. How is it the message never gets to some cyclists? How is it they get a partial safety message? (By the way, I've seen a police officer on a bike in the dark without lights, too. I asked him why, he said he didn't need them.)

From the people I've talked to...Many bikers feel that they're just peds/joggers with wheels. So lighting is not needed just reflectors thank you!

[Keith99]

From the people I've talked to...Many bikers feel that they're just peds/joggers with wheels. So lighting is not needed just reflectors thank you!

In a way they have a point. I've seen enough idiot pedestrians crossing or walking in the street in dark clothes after dark. And Darwin will treat cyclists just like Peds.

[nelson249]

Unfortunately all this stuff costs money. Us advocates must really get on some of their nerves when we "advocate" that all cyclists should spend money on lights, helmets, "proper" bicycles, "VC" training, etc. Just a thought...

There are people who are enough on the edge that a $16 blinker tail light is simply not part of the balance sheet, much less a $30 helmet or a $200 class or a $550 "proper" bicycle. At least here, in Portland, we have campaigns which give away free helmets, and many times, when a cyclist is pulled over for not having lights, they are given some lighting by the police officer. If you want to "advocate for everything," many times that means providing everything as well.


How muich does a stay in ICU or the morgue cost?

[ItsJustMe]

I was wondering about this earlier today. I've heard people say that they think lights on bikes is dorky and uncool. I wonder how many of them would dream of driving their car around in full darkness without lights.

ghettocruiser: are those who drive without lights driving in town where there are street lights? Because I can understand that. Several times I've driven a few miles in town before realizing (usually when I leave town) that my lights are not on.

[Blue Order]

How muich does a stay in ICU or the morgue cost?I agree, but Brian is right. Sometimes people-- me for example-- don't have the funds to buy needed safety equipment. It's easy to ask how much a stay in the ICU or morgue costs when you have the means to buy safety equipment. When you don't have the means, you have to decide whether to ride or walk.

[vrkelley]

In a way they have a point. I've seen enough idiot pedestrians crossing or walking in the street in dark clothes after dark. And Darwin will treat cyclists just like Peds.

Agreed. I just re-read my post. Thankfully nobody misunderstood it to read that I don't do lights. Cuz like LittleBigMan, I have a my own geek light setup for front, and back (that gives good side viz).

[ghettocruiser]

Yes, this is in urban areas with street lights... to drive rural roads with the lights off would require a very full moon, night vision equipment, or both.

But IMO even under the streetlights, unlit cars are a bigger hazard than unlit bikes. The reason is that darkened cars can be assumed at quick glance to be parked cars.... whereas there usually are not a lot of parked bikes with riders in the right-hand lane.

The reflective properties of car lights, when turned off, are also usually worse than even the worse bike reflectors.

The always-on running lights in some cars address that problem, but they are not enough to light up the reflective gear on a bike and rider

[straightedge]

In a way they have a point. I've seen enough idiot pedestrians crossing or walking in the street in dark clothes after dark. And Darwin will treat cyclists just like Peds.

Well, apparently you saw them, what's the big deal? Obviously lack of blinking devices and highly reflective clothing doesn't make you invisible, after all, I'm still alive. Should people have to start wearing reflective vests to roam around after dark? Maybe I should buy a walking helmet while I'm at it, but I like walking on the edge...:rolleyes:

[Brian Ratliff]

How muich does a stay in ICU or the morgue cost?

An unfair question (though, for a person in poverty - neither costs anything; hospitals have to treat, and the dead must be taken care of, regardless of ability to pay).

But not having safety equipment, like lacking insurance, is a risk that people will take when it trades off of other things, ...like eating. It is one thing to be like the guy I saw yesterday; a roadie who obviously got caught out after dark with no lights and was slowly riding the sidewalks. It is quite another to be living in the migrant workers camp I drive past with the one guy who rides around on an unlit department store mountain bike, unhelmeted, on an unlit rural highway.

Society already has a two tiered structure. Woe be it to us to perpetuate that into cycling advocacy.

One problem is that our car society has cut the bottom out of the affordability index of bicycle stuff. The poor drive old, third or fourth hand beater cars and find ways of getting around polution regulations and don't deal with cycling, which in this country has gotten to be extremely technical on one hand, or absolute plastic-gimmicky junk on the other. When some do happen into transportation cycling, the advocates are all over them to get them to buy more stuff "for their safety." So they are back to a beater car, which, mile to mile, is probably cheaper than trying to get all the stuff that cyclists like us "need."

I'm not saying that things like lights and helmets aren't important to cyclists; after all, I can afford them. I'm just saying that it is wrong for cycling advocates to essentially say "screw you" to a person who is a victim of our free market system which, in favor of the car, has render unavailable the solid, low cost bicycle and basically opened a transportation void to one who cannot afford said car. Sometimes in life, choices aren't between good and bad, but between bad and worse. We shouldn't be so insular as to come to resent those who cannot afford "proper" cycling equipment.

[Keith99]

An unfair question (though, for a person in poverty - neither costs anything; hospitals have to treat, and the dead must be taken care of, regardless of ability to pay).

But not having safety equipment, like lacking insurance, is a risk that people will take when it trades off of other things, ...like eating. .


Actually it is quite reasonable to take it a bit farther. Even if you decide these are more important than food (absurd) if you don't have $550 you can't buy a $550 bike. No matter how much you want to and no matter what else you are willing to give up you can't spend funds you don't have.

[closetbiker]

Wearing a helmet, no lights, pitch dark, wrong side of the road, through stop signs, on the side walk, I see it every day here in my all ages mandatory helmet law province.

Good thing most feel "safe" because they have a helmet on. :rolleyes:

Just yesterday I saw a kid hit by a right turning SUV because the kid came off the side walk into a cross walk from the right side of a right turning truck. His bike ended up pinned under the trucks left front wheel. The driver was looking to the left, in the direction of traffic, waiting for a break to go and went just as the kid rode in front of him. The kid had a helmet on, so he must have been "safe".

[Wogsterca]

Actually it is quite reasonable to take it a bit farther. Even if you decide these are more important than food (absurd) if you don't have $550 you can't buy a $550 bike. No matter how much you want to and no matter what else you are willing to give up you can't spend funds you don't have.

Whether you can afford a $500 bike or only a $75 Walmart special, there are cheap lights, MEC (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442588347&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302692895&bmUID=1159579481168) in Canada has a set for $16.75, Nashbar (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=101&subcategory=1066&brand=&sku=7635&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat:%20Light%20Combos) has a similar deal in the US for $14.99. These are not the best lights, but certainly are better then nothing.

A decent set of lights, sufficiently bright to be visible within 200m runs about $50. I don't know about other places, but around here operating a bicycle on the road at night, without lights, runs the risk of a $100 fine. Most bike shops know this, and my LBS has a sign on the counter that states that you need lights and a bell by law, and that missing either can cost you a $100 fine. Of course near the counter is a nice display of lights.

[donnamb]

Whether you can afford a $500 bike or only a $75 Walmart special, there are cheap lights, MEC (http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442588347&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302692895&bmUID=1159579481168) in Canada has a set for $16.75, Nashbar (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=101&subcategory=1066&brand=&sku=7635&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat:%20Light%20Combos) has a similar deal in the US for $14.99. These are not the best lights, but certainly are better then nothing.

A decent set of lights, sufficiently bright to be visible within 200m runs about $50. I don't know about other places, but around here operating a bicycle on the road at night, without lights, runs the risk of a $100 fine. Most bike shops know this, and my LBS has a sign on the counter that states that you need lights and a bell by law, and that missing either can cost you a $100 fine. Of course near the counter is a nice display of lights.

For most of the poor cyclist clients who receive services where I work, $14.99 might as well be $1499.00. Even if they manage to afford a cheap light, when the battery dies, they may not have the money right away to replace the battery. The kinds of financial decisions that they make are deciding to pay the electricity bill vs. the phone, or buy a blinkie for a bike vs. buy cough syrup or lice treatment for the child. If it means staying employed, they'll keep riding without what they see as frivolous extras.

[ryanparrish]

Let Darwanism takes its effect. Even if we were to yell out use blinkies, and lights people won't use them. Same way they weave in and out of traffic going the wrong direction.

[Robert C]

It surprised me when I got here, in China. None of the bicycles have lights on them (and no one wears helmets). To maks matters worse, othere road users do not always use lights. About half of the scooters are electric, so they do not use thier lights in order to make the batteries last longer. The motorcycles do not always use thier lights, even at night, and the muni-buses never use their lights. Yes, the buses drive around with the lights off, at night.

I agree with the other statements, in The States we tend, as enthusasts, to forget the needs of people that are riding for transportation. Consider the run life os a set of batteries and the speed of the prople riding for transportation. The cost/mile of batteries would quickly get out of hand. I have a nice recharagable system (back in the US). However, the person who is riding a bicycle because they can not afford a car is not likely to shell out $200 for a light. As someone said, the cheap ones will only work about a week and then need another hours worth, or more, of labor to replace the batteries.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Let Darwanism takes its effect. Even if we were to yell out use blinkies, and lights people won't use them. Same way they weave in and out of traffic going the wrong direction.
I agree. "Darwinism" will eventually weed out (probably through violent beatings) the obnoxious loudmouth nannies who yell out safety reprimands to strangers.

[ryanparrish]

I was tired I mistyped

[kf5nd]

I got my son a light on sale for $10. We run AA rechargeables in it. Cost is extremely low. Much cheaper than a hospital visit. Total outlay $20.

I understand that some people don't have $20. I feel sorry for them, but $20 is not alot of money in North America. That's four or five people eating fast food. Maybe $20 is alot in China, but the same system probably costs less in China (though the batt charger will likely burn your house down, due to no consumer safety standard... hmm, that's expensive!)




Consider the run life os a set of batteries and the speed of the prople riding for transportation. The cost/mile of batteries would quickly get out of hand. I have a nice recharagable system (back in the US). However, the person who is riding a bicycle because they can not afford a car is not likely to shell out $200 for a light. As someone said, the cheap ones will only work about a week and then need another hours worth, or more, of labor to replace the batteries.

[kf5nd]

Back to the original post... when I teach bike education classes, I come right out of the box with this statement:

The reflectors that you got on your bike when you bought it are completely inadequate. For dusk, dawn, or night riding you need bright front & rear lights in addition to the reflectors!

You should see some of the jaws drop. They feel betrayed by their government (CPSC).

[closetbiker]

I think a big reason there are not a lot of lights on bike at night is simply because the owners think the chance of them riding in the dark is slim.

There might be an occasional situation where they are caught when the sun has set, but I'll bet they figure they probably aren't riding all that far anyway, so it's not worth the money.

A couple of weeks ago my evening commute was just when the sun had set so I had to put the lights back on the bike, but as I came home I noticed many unlit people on bikes. Happens the same time each year. All of a sudden, it's 9:00 and it's dark! Must be fall creeping up on us. Last week I didn't pass a single unlit cyclist. Maybe they realize that at 9:00, it's dark now.

Most people buy a bike to ride on a sunny day, not at night.

[rajman]

I've been caught without lights myself. It kinda sucks, esp. on an unlit MUP. It has also happened that my batteries died enroute. That being said, I now have an extra set of blinkies just in case. Not as good as my halogen, but better than nothing.

People will do what they want - I feel safer knowing that I am seen, and can light up the road around me.

BTW I've noticed that in Calgary a lot of people wear reflective gear and blinkies while walking/jogging and I have seen several dogs with red blinkies. I guess there are a lot of people who feel the same way about visibility, not just cyclists.

[donnamb]

Let Darwanism takes its effect. Even if we were to yell out use blinkies, and lights people won't use them. Same way they weave in and out of traffic going the wrong direction.

That's not Darwinism, that's Social Darwinism. When you apply the principles of the theory of natural selection to unnatural human societal structures, you are actually using a range of political ideologies to pass judgment on your fellow human beings. Since we live in a relatively free society, you certainly have a right to your opinion and to pass judgment on anyone you want, even if your personal standards are a group of ideologies that are closely aligned with eugenics. However, those of us with an educational background in the life sciences would appreciate it if you do not confuse a mainstream scientific theory with your personal opinions of your fellow human beings.

[Erick L]

Somehow, people are hearing, "Wear a helmet," but not hearing, "Use lights." How are we failing them?

Maybe not so much here on BF, but it's true in the media where bicycle safety comes down to helmet, with nothing on other safety equipment and how to ride. I don't go out of my way to "educate" other cyclists but I've had a couple incidents where I tried to get a message across (not easy since I was pissed off by the incident itself). I've also written to the council and police.

[Tom Stormcrowe]

Too much yelling and we'll be riding bikes with seatbelts, full roll cages and a Halon fire suppression system that only weighs 920 pounds! That'll keep us safe!http://img61.photobucket.com/albums/v185/MemoryLane/bolt.gifhttp://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6499/ahhh1gv.gif

[closetbiker]

Maybe not so much here on BF, but it's true in the media where bicycle safety comes down to helmet, with nothing on other safety equipment and how to ride. I don't go out of my way to "educate" other cyclists but I've had a couple incidents where I tried to get a message across (not easy since I was pissed off by the incident itself). I've also written to the council and police.

Like the OP said,

Somehow, people are hearing, "Wear a helmet," but not hearing, "Use lights." How are we failing them?

That's how we have. By over emphasizing something at the expense of other things more important.

Helmets are fine, but avoiding collisions is far more fine.

[LittleBigMan]

You can get a flashlight w/batteries from the Dollar Store for (guess what?) $1.

Certainly if it's Mom or Dad's job, they can get junior a cheap flashlight.

[Helmet Head]

Wearing a helmet, no lights, pitch dark--I passed this cyclist this morning at 6:30 a.m.

Why rant about someone else's cycling?

Somehow, people are hearing, "Wear a helmet," but not hearing, "Use lights." How are we failing them?

Nobody would drive their car without lights. We take that for granted. How is it the message never gets to some cyclists? How is it they get a partial safety message? (By the way, I've seen a police officer on a bike in the dark without lights, too. I asked him why, he said he didn't need them.)
It's very logical. They're hearing "wear a helmet" and "ride as if you're invisible".

Even "experienced" cyclists on this forum say you should ride as if you're invisible.

If you're already riding as if you're invisible, and so not counting on anyone seeing you, why bother trying to be visible? That's why the cop answered, "I don't need them". He could see fine without them, and he felt he wasn't doing anything that relied on anyone seeing him -- he was riding as if he's invisible -- so (from his perspective) where is the need for lights?

The other day while driving on a 4 lane road I saw a cyclist up ahead in a bike lane (yes, I noticed him despite him being in a bike lane, perhaps because, as a cyclist, all cyclists are more relevant to me that to most non-cyclist motorists), who did a quick turn of the head, just long enough to see that someone (me) was coming in his peripheral vision. I slowed down, since he was obviously looking for a gap to cut across to make a left to a scenic and popular street. I slowed way down. He wouldn't budge. It was soon obvious that the only way this guy would cross is if the street was empty all the way across. The idea of some motorist noticing him, and yielding to him was foreign to him. The idea of merging into the right lane first, then negotiating for the next lane, obviously never occured to him. And this was no "folk" cyclist. He was a 40ish Lycra-clad roadie. What he was doing was consistent with "riding as if you're invisible": no matter what the motorists are doing, assume they don't see you. Assume your conspicuity is zero. That is the same mentality for which using lights for conspicuity is irrational.

While Robert Hurst feels VC/EC doesn't emphasize vigilance enough, with which I don't disagree, I think the main problems most cyclists have is not a lack of vigilance, but perhaps sole reliance on vigilance, to the point where they assume they are completely inconspicuous, and ride accordingly. That's exactly what VC/EC is trying to counter. You are not inconspicuous, and it is detrimental to your safety to assume that you are. Ride (and use lights) in order TO be conspicuous, but remain vigilant for the exceptions where you are not noticed (particularly at intersections). Trust, but verify. That's the message these cyclists are not getting: they are not getting the VC message.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Too much yelling and we'll be riding bikes with seatbelts, full roll cages and a Halon fire suppression system that only weighs 920 pounds! That'll keep us safe!http://img61.photobucket.com/albums/v185/MemoryLane/bolt.gifhttp://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6499/ahhh1gv.gif
Just like a cowboy after the Safety Nannies get their wish.

[zippered]

i'm striving to never hear "but i didn't see you" ever again...

idealistic? you bet
realistic? probably not
worthwhile? i think so

cheers

ps. not just "wear a helmet", but "wear a helmet... on your HEAD, not the HANDLEBARS"!

[Helmet Head]

i'm striving to never hear "but i didn't see you" ever again...

idealistic? you bet
realistic? probably not
worthwhile? i think so

cheers

ps. not just "wear a helmet", but "wear a helmet... on your HEAD, not the HANDLEBARS"!
And what are you doing besides the usual (bright clothes, lights) to improve sensory conspicuity?
In particular, are you using lane positioning to improve cognitive conspicuity?

[Adiankur]

I didnt realize how much stuff I actually needed until I logged onto this forum. The only reason I logged on here was because I do internet searchs for anything im really interested in. My LBS was helpful, but for the most part they tell you to get a helmet, light and blinkie if riding at night, bike shorts, cage and water bottle. I think they assume that most people will either go just that far, or will ask more questions if they get serious. Sadly, many people buy just the basics and never ask another question. I thought a cheesy LED would be fine for the front of my bike at first, now I know better.

[zippered]

absolutely.

i have a habit of standing up a lot, because i figure the bigger i appear, the better.

i also use sound when i can, calling out if i see someone not looking... sometimes i whistle as i ride, if not to make my presence known, then to keep me relaxed when the traffic is busy and i'm getting nervous from too many close calls.

funny how in the summer how much more drivers seem to see me... especially if i'm showing my tattoos or wearing um, less, even if it's far from the kind of attention i'm looking for! getting hit vs getting hit on... hmm

[chipcom]

I agree. "Darwinism" will eventually weed out (probably through violent beatings) the obnoxious loudmouth nannies who yell out safety reprimands to strangers.

Though it hasn't weeded out poor misguided NoScoring Lions fans...so much for Darwinism as a credible talking point.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Though it hasn't weeded out poor misguided NoScoring Lions fans...so much for Darwinism as a credible talking point.
Wait til next year. You been sick? Can't believe you waited this long.

[webist]

I didnt realize how much stuff I actually needed until I logged onto this forum. The only reason I logged on here was because I do internet searchs for anything im really interested in. My LBS was helpful, but for the most part they tell you to get a helmet, light and blinkie if riding at night, bike shorts, cage and water bottle. I think they assume that most people will either go just that far, or will ask more questions if they get serious. Sadly, many people buy just the basics and never ask another question. I thought a cheesy LED would be fine for the front of my bike at first, now I know better.

And how many folks have walked away from a vehicle purchase after learning that the "Uner $19K starting price they saw in the paper or on TV is really a minimum of $26K once you include some of the dealer charges, and other non-essentials like floor mats, CD Player, Cruise Control, registration, taxes, etc.?

If I were running an LBS, I wonder if I'd tell first-time folks right out of the chute that the $450 bike is actually $1100 by the time you find the clothes, shoes, gloves, helmet, lights, seat, pedals, cleats, seat wedge, cages and bottles, tool kit, extra tubes, good wheels, good tires, seat wedges, pump, etc. The more likely successful sales approach is to sell the minimums and upgrade incrementally. Once they've accumulated all those essential extras, upselling on the next bike is a cinch.

Also, when I ride, I think about my accessories and gear as well as my riding technique, not that of others. If someone asks me, I'll advocate for the appropriate equipment and behaviors in a friendly non-critical way. When next I see that person though, I'll not obsess over whether or not my advocacy had any effect.:)

[Hambone]

How muich does a stay in ICU or the morgue cost?
neither would cost me anything.

[chipcom]

Wait til next year. You been sick? Can't believe you waited this long.

Sick, busy, you name it. :(

Now you can be an honorary Clevelander, since 'wait till next year' is the city's battle cry.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Sick, busy, you name it. :(

Now you can be an honorary Clevelander, since 'wait till next year' is the city's battle cry.
Actually I am waiting for GameDay Oct 14, 7pm CST. Redemption time with the Wolverines. A White Tornado will swoop down upon them and give them what they have coming. Of course the Gophers must be dispatched with first and those critters have been ornery too.