Recumbent - Patent Violation (by building one's own frame)?

Hi Gang,
If I build my own frame by copying, for example, a Bachetta Giro 20, is that in violation of any patent?

Thanks

Why? Unless you are marketing them, it's nobody's business.

The reason I ask is because I asked the only frame builder I know, to build me one and he cited potential patent violations. How do I convince him it's not a violation of a patent?

The reason I ask is because I asked the only frame builder I know, to build me one and he cited potential patent violations. How do I convince him it's not a violation of a patent?

I do not know how you would patent a single beam going at some angle into the air. My guess is that the tear dropped shape of the tubing could be patented.

The reason I ask is because I asked the only frame builder I know, to build me one and he cited potential patent violations. How do I convince him it's not a violation of a patent?

- find another frame builder?

The reason I ask is because I asked the only frame builder I know, to build me one and he cited potential patent violations. How do I convince him it's not a violation of a patent?

Now I understand why you asked. Your original post led me to believe that you were doing the work for yourself. Still, I don't know why a small builder would quibble over a single tube frame; sounds pretty generic to me.

My 2-cent thoughts are the same. I have built several and the latest was a copy, I am not worried...and as Trsnrtr says I would think a builder could not be pushed around by building just one for you, or as many as he wants as long as he is not making them exactly like some ''store bought'' model.
i liked my Linear
now like it and my P-38
el padre

I was told if you change a product 30% they can't get you for patent enfringement. I was still bouncing you're question around in my head cause, I was thinking of building a few and selling them. I seen a company that has a prototype of one they might sell in the future. It was one of those deals where I GOT TO HAVE ONE OF THOSE. Well I built it as close to the picture that I could. I bought three bents in my life. a EZ 1 lite, a Rans Tailwind, and I now have a Rans Stratus. This bike blows all three away in handling, comfort, It seems quick It's just plain if'n nice. I'm thinking of building another one to sell. I figure there will be a 30% difference and if I don't go into mass production or sell them on line. no one will be the wiser.

no one will be the wiser.

YEAH! As Nike is so known for saying...


JUST DO IT!!*



Deal with the legal mumbo when they find you. I don't think they could make you "unbuild" the ones that you create before that point. Probably just tell you to STOP doing it!:p

*copyright 2006 Nike corporation (had to put that, just in case;) )

The reason I ask is because I asked the only frame builder I know, to build me one and he cited potential patent violations. How do I convince him it's not a violation of a patent?
The builder is correct. Since the builder would profit by making the copy, he is the one that is liable. You can copy what you want for yourself and are not liable unless you sell the product.

Chip

I cannot find where Bacchetta has any patent rights on any of there bikes. In any case, the builder is building for personal use, not for profit. The person hired to weld is not producing a bicycle, but simple fusing metal as requested by a customer.

BTW, Bacchetta produces there own custom teardrop main tubes themselves. It’s not likely anyone will be producing that tube in there back yards.

How much is he going to charge you? What size of Bacchetta would you ride? You'd still need all the other bent parts, seat and steering. You can order a frame kit from Bacchetta if you have most the parts to complete the bike. Bacchetta isn't the first highracer nor will they be the last. They do however make one kick butt bike that doesn't look home made like most recumbents. By the time you gather the materials, fab brackets for the seat, fab the seat, etc. How much do you really save over buying a Giro, or a frame kit? $1500 for a new Giro 26 with disc brakes is a pretty good deal. I'm sure frame kits are less if you have your own crankset, fork, wheels, brakes and derailer.

And don't forget if you build it yourself, you'll probably have to PAINT it yourself!:rolleyes:

Hi Gang,
If I build my own frame by copying, for example, a Bachetta Giro 20, is that in violation of any patent?

Thanks

Dude, isn't that like copyrighting chord changes in a song? I don't see how they can patent a 2 inch tube with two wheels attached. If he doesn't want to build it, find some one who will. Dom at bentech made my frame:
http://www.bentechbikes.com/

Here's a picture of it:
http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/284/1537/1024/DSCF0065.jpg

He builds diamond frame bikes correct? How many companies could sue him for that? His thinking is flawed. Volae makes recumbents similar to Bacchetta, and they haven't been sued: http://www.volaerecumbents.com/. Bacchetta would be stupid to sue them anyway. They would just hurt the industry more than help it.

Crap Greenspeed's trike has been copied almost excatly by Scarab and Trimuter, but they haven't sued. Greenspeed sells plans to thier trike, even. Bent manufacturing is small; they don't have the money going around slapping law suits on everyone. They'd do better to spend thier time building better bikes.

I was told if you change a product 30% they can't get you for patent enfringement. I was still bouncing you're question around in my head cause, I was thinking of building a few and selling them. I seen a company that has a prototype of one they might sell in the future. It was one of those deals where I GOT TO HAVE ONE OF THOSE. Well I built it as close to the picture that I could. I bought three bents in my life. a EZ 1 lite, a Rans Tailwind, and I now have a Rans Stratus. This bike blows all three away in handling, comfort, It seems quick It's just plain if'n nice. I'm thinking of building another one to sell. I figure there will be a 30% difference and if I don't go into mass production or sell them on line. no one will be the wiser.

Dan Miller, says if you can make a product 10% better or give 10% more value you'll have a great chance to make money in business. Dan is a career coach who helps people start thier own businesses: http://www.48days.com/

Think about Dominos Pizza. Is thier pizza better than Pizza Hutt? It's about the same to me. But they added the whole 30 minute delivery thing, and made millionaires across the country with just 10% added value to a common product.

How much do you really save over buying a Giro, or a frame kit? $1500 for a new Giro 26 with disc brakes is a pretty good deal. I'm sure frame kits are less if you have your own crankset, fork, wheels, brakes and derailer.

My frame costed $340. I transfered components from my MTB. I bought the seat mounts and risers and stem. Even if you bought all new components you'd come out ahead. I think Bentech is a great value in the bent world.

If someone profits from using someone else's patent it is illegal. Build it yourself, ride it and never sell it...you are fine. But if you have someone build it and sell it to you, they are in violation.

Does Bacchetta have a patent on the Giro 20? Does Volae have a patent on the Tour? I'm saying that certain things can't be patented like the english alphabet(copyright) or chord changes (another copyright) to a song. If you could patent ii-V-I you be the riches man on earth, well at least in the western world.

I'm wondering how could a company patent a pipe with bicycle wheels attached? I can understand a patent on the seat clamp or the stem and riser or brakes or some part of the bike they've design that no one has done before, but a patent on a steel pipe? Or a patent on the entire bicycle? cmon

bentech's site said the tube-kits are not welded?

Man, the strada frame looks so easy to build. I could get a wire-feed welder for $469 at Lowe's but to weld once? My welder buddy just moved.

bentech's site said the tube-kits are not welded?

Man, the strada frame looks so easy to build. I could get a wire-feed welder for $469 at Lowe's but to weld once? My welder buddy just moved.

You looked at the wrong page. I got my frame welded:
http://www.bentechbikes.com/frames.htm

There are two types of patents issued in the USA, design patents and utility patents. Most designs pertaining to bicycles are design patents, which pertain to the design, not the use of the end product. MOST bicycle-related patents are ornamental patents, which mean that the design or shape of the surface is different than others, but may be identical functionally.

If someone profits from using someone else's patent it is illegal. Build it yourself, ride it and never sell it...you are fine. But if you have someone build it and sell it to you, they are in violation.

Actually with a patent, they have EXCLUSIVE right. If you copy it for yourself and make no profit, you are still infringing on the patent and they could technically sue you. The truth is it is unlikely they will sue someone for making a single copy that they never sell (more than anything because they will likely never even learn you have done it). However, it is still infringement of the patent rights.

Am I correct in assuming they can only stop you, not collect royalties because you didn't make a profit off of it?

there is no way there is patent on a biclye frame...they have been around for hundreds of years and are not orginal ideas...just tell this jabroni to worry about building the bike and you'll worry about litigation...give me break

there is no way there is patent on a biclye frame...they have been around for hundreds of years and are not orginal ideas...just tell this jabroni to worry about building the bike and you'll worry about litigation...give me break

Actually...there are MANY patents on bicycle frames. That is what I was trying to say in an earlier post; you can get an ornamental patent on just about any unique design. It is not a utility patent, which means that functionally it differs from other existing similar products in how it works and/or in the methods of construction. But an ornamental design patent does offer exclusive patent protection to the holder.

But does Bacchetta have a patent?

Wanna bet there are no new patents on bicycle frames? All you need is an improvement on a bicycle frame and you can get a patent. Find Patent 7,114,738 on one of the many patent search sites. It is for a bicycle frame and was issued 3 October 2006.

Again, does Bacchetta have a patent?

Again, does Bacchetta have a patent?
I think you would probably have to get the names of the principles in the company and do a patent search, using the names as either the inventor or assignee.

Here's one patent search engine:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/search.html

or you could just go directly to the "horse's mouth"

http://www.uspto.gov

There are a heap of patents being passed in the US every day.
Most of them are granted without any real "prior use" search.
It appears that the real searches are being done when the patent is questioned and then the patent is found to have been awarded in error.
A serious question to ask is "is there a prior patent granted upon the design of the frame you want to build?"
If the answer is yes then change something. ie. material, method of welding, tube lengths, diameters, shapes, etc.
Problem solved.
However, another question to ask is " Who on earth is ever going to find out youve copied the original patened (IF) frame anyway."
And, If they do, how much are they going to spend to get a conviction, how much can you pay, is it really worth it?
Dont forget, the person/company holding the patent/copyright has to find out first that it is being infringed, seriously ask yourself how they will find that information if its only one frame?
Whoops! I forgot, your name is here.:D

Again, does Bacchetta have a patent?

funbun, why don't you email Rich or John and just ask them?

funbun, why don't you email Rich or John and just ask them?

Because I'm not the one who wants/needs to know. World Tour's builder is one worried about being sued, not me.

Because I'm not the one who wants/needs to know. World Tour's builder is one worried about being sued, not me.

But you're the one who asked twice on this page! :D

Again, does Bacchetta have a patent?

Yes.


http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=13&f=G&l=50&co1=OR&d=PTXT&s1=schlitter&s2=schlitter&OS=schlitter+OR+schlitter&RS=schlitter+OR+schlitter

Yes.


http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=13&f=G&l=50&co1=OR&d=PTXT&s1=schlitter&s2=schlitter&OS=schlitter+OR+schlitter&RS=schlitter+OR+schlitter

It would appear from the patent text that RANS has a patent for the RAD-Lock mechanism as well as for the concept of weaving reflective material into the fabric of a mesh-back recumbent seat. That leaves a bit of wiggle room for anyone wanting to build a stick bike.

But you're the one who asked twice on this page! :D

Again I write: I'm not the one who wants/needs to know. World Tour's builder is one worried about being sued, not me. Tour started this thread about patents and such. I wasn't asking for my own knowledge. If I really wanted to know I would have called Bacchetta and asked.

*sigh*

I wasn't asking for my own knowledge. If I really wanted to know I would have called Bacchetta and asked.

*sigh*

:D:D:D

Again I write: I'm not the one who wants/needs to know. World Tour's builder is one worried about being sued, not me. Tour started this thread about patents and such. I wasn't asking for my own knowledge. If I really wanted to know I would have called Bacchetta and asked.

*sigh*

Funbun, that was Dennis' way of saying, "He who made the suggestion is the presumed volunteer."

Practicing law wothout a license? Careful, careful. bk

Funbun, that was Dennis' way of saying, "He who made the suggestion is the presumed volunteer."

Lesson learned. Thanks. I thought since this was the original poster's thread that all comments were directed toward the original poster. I know from now on to clarify.

Hi Gang,
If I build my own frame by copying, for example, a Bachetta Giro 20, is that in violation of any patent?

Thanks

Look at it like a lawyer. Assuming you are building a bicycle only for yourself. The basis for injury to them is how much money they lost by you not buying their bicycle. The basic idea of a single tube frame is not that unique. The Michaux factory used it on their velocipedes. So the worst damage they could sue you is the lost of one bicycle sales. That would be the wholesale value or about 50% retail. Is it worth their time to sue? So be inspired, but don't feel required to copy them.

If you are really worried, spend a few bucks on a patent attorney. See what they have to say.

Good luck.

Look at it like a lawyer. Assuming you are building a bicycle only for yourself. The basis for injury to them is how much money they lost by you not buying their bicycle. The basic idea of a single tube frame is not that unique. The Michaux factory used it on their velocipedes. So the worst damage they could sue you is the lost of one bicycle sales. That would be the wholesale value or about 50% retail. Is it worth their time to sue? So be inspired, but don't feel required to copy them.

If you are really worried, spend a few bucks on a patent attorney. See what they have to say.

Good luck.

Or quit worring. Just build the bike and have fun. Life is too short.

Hi Gang,
If I build my own frame by copying, for example, a Bachetta Giro 20, is that in violation of any patent?

Thanks

I don't think you need to change much to have any patent infringement issues. The easiest thing to do if you're that worried about it, is contact a patent lawyer or talk to the patent office and get the word straight from the horse's mouth. Even if you have to pay a lawyer for the info, it'll still end up cheaper in the end than if you went out and bought a commercial offering.

The right conferred by the patent grant is, in the language of the statute and of the grant itself, “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” the invention in the United States or “importing” the invention into the United States. What is granted is not the right to make, use, offer for sale, sell or import, but the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, selling or importing the invention. Once a patent is issued, the patentee must enforce the patent without aid of the USPTO. (http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/index.html#patent)
--From USPTO.gov

What I understand from that is: you can make what you want, and it's the responsibility of the patent holder to say if your creation violates their patent.