Motorists in the bike lanes

[Ebt racer]

I'm posting to see how many other people have this problem. It has been one of my major complaints about city riding. once or twice I've bin clipped by a car who has been driving in the bike lanes and then had them cursing and swearing at me. Now a little clip doesn't seem like much but when you're going 40+ks on a road bike a little clip could kill you!

I always get so mad when i see people doing it, whether I'm riding or walking or driving, and it happens all the time! Also another major problem I've had is smashed glass in the lanes.
I wish there was a way to keep the cars out of the bike lanes and that they could be kept clear.

any responses to this are welcome.

[joejack951]

Are you getting clipped mid-block or at intersections by turning vehicles? What's the speed limit on these roads where you are going 40+km/h?

[Bekologist]

you think the drivers like you in the road MORE than in the bike lane?

drivers dislike bikers regardless; with a preferential lane only the absolute wackjobs have anything to complain about. but the drivers hate to see bikes pass traffic congestion in a bike lane as well.

i guess the only solution is to eliminate bike lanes, and get stuck in traffic?

i hate potholes and glass. i find these hazards all over the road. drivers too, for that matter.....

[ghettocruiser]

Generally if traffic backs up too much, people look for whatever they can find to jump the line... parking lots, side streets, and bike lanes. I've never had anyone act aggressively in a dedicated bike lane, but in the diamond lanes (for buses bikes taxis) I've been honked at by cars that were not allowed to be there in the first place.

[sbhikes]

Airzound.

[zippered]

um, doesn't seem like much?

getting clipped is not acceptable, i might be inclided to consider it getting hit. were you able to get the license plate? i've only made one traffic complaint report (which didn't go anywhere, but it was fairly minor with no contact) but though i'm leery of the police, perhaps if these incidences weren't ignored, things might change.

might. slowly.

[Toyman991]

Most bike lanes in my neck of the woods are only about 4 feet wide. Where I most frequently see vehicles intruding on them is at right-hand curves in the road where the driver is trying to take a tighter line. Alas, these lanes have become known locally as the "glass and gravel" lane due to lack of regular street sweeping.

[maximusvt]

I haven't ever used this line but if I encounter a car stopped in traffic, waiting in the bike lane, I will just knock on his rear window and ask him if he's saving a lot of time.
Yesterday I encountered a slow moving lawnmower or tractor riding in the bike lane so that the cars could pass him. I almost got pissed off about it, but I just pulled in front of one of the cars and passed him as well. Not worth getting bent out of shape over.

[Falkon]

If I saw a car in the bike lane trying to pass traffic, I'd probably throw my water bottle.

[Helmet Head]

drivers dislike bikers regardless
Speak for yourself Bek. I get nothing but mutual respect, and often waves and smiles, from the vast majority of drivers. If you want to be treated like a vehicle driver, you need to act like one, which you obviously don't.

[Blue Order]

That extended finger isn't a "wave," HH... :lol:

[Helmet Head]

Drivers in California and in most other states are REQUIRED to merge into bike lanes prior to make right turns, and are allowed to do so up to 200 feet prior to their turn.

In California and in most other states, a motorist in the bike lane within 200 feet of a right turn is perfectly legal and proper.

Of course, they should yield to any cyclists who are in there, but once they're partially in the bike lane, they have the right of way, and you have to yield to them.

[Blue Order]

Drivers in California and in most other states are REQUIRED to merge into bike lanes prior to make right turns, and are allowed to do so up to 200 feet prior to their turn.

In California and in most other states, a motorist in the bike lane within 200 feet of a right turn is perfectly legal and proper.

Of course, they should yield to any cyclists who are in there, but once they're partially in the bike lane, they have the right of way, and you have to yield to them.I think you're only partially correct.

First: They "should" yield to any cyclist who is in the bike lane? So they don't have to yield? They can cut you off? They can mow you down? Come on, you must realize that they "must" yield to any cyclist who has the right of way.

Second: They have the right of way, and you have to yield to them? You must mean once they are in the properly in the lane, they have the right of way IF you are approaching from behind.

[Bekologist]

Speak for yourself Bek. I get nothing but mutual respect, and often waves and smiles, from the vast majority of drivers...


WHERE IS THIS ERSATZ CYCLING PARADISE? I want to go there, just for vacation. - I rode 65 miles today, helemt head, how much did you ride? you think i don't ride like a vehicle........

[Helmet Head]

WHERE IS THIS ERSATZ CYCLING PARADISE? I want to go there, just for vacation.
It's whereever I ride, without exception. If you think driver respect is a function of where you ride, rather than how you ride, you're missing the whole point of VC.


- I rode 65 miles today, helemt head, how much did you ride?
Only 6 miles so far. :(

you think i don't ride like a vehicle........
Based on how you write about it, I don't think you act like a vehicle driver when you're riding in traffic.

[Helmet Head]

I think you're only partially correct.

First: They "should" yield to any cyclist who is in the bike lane? So they don't have to yield? They can cut you off? They can mow you down? Come on, you must realize that they "must" yield to any cyclist who has the right of way.
I don't make the distinction between should and must that you are in this context. By "they should" I mean they're supposed to; if they don't they're breaking the law. I did not mean to imply yielding is somehow optional.

Another example: Right turn only lanes should be used only for turning right.

Second: They have the right of way, and you have to yield to them? You must mean once they are in the properly in the lane, they have the right of way IF you are approaching from behind.
Right. And this is often the case, since they are usually slowing down for their right turn.

[Bekologist]

head, if you think you'd get 'smiles and waves' and gingerbread cookies handed out windows wherever you ride a bicycle, i think it is candyland where you're riding, bub.

i think there are drivers everywhere that won't respect a bicyclist except begrudgingly. the problems are not bicycle accomodations on the road.

[Ebt racer]

Generally I find most Drivers to be quite friendly buthis is a massive generalisation) I have most problems with p platers and ute or small truck drivers. I now many arn't like that but they make up the majority of my problem drivers.

quote joe jack 951:Are you getting clipped mid-block or at intersections by turning vehicles? What's the speed limit on these roads where you are going 40+km/h?

Of the two or three times i have been clipped one was one a highway by a guy towing a caravan, the second was crusing through town on a straight road with a speed limit of 80kms and the third was at traffic lights by an impatient driver

[The Human Car]

Second: They have the right of way, and you have to yield to them? You must mean once they are in the properly in the lane, they have the right of way IF you are approaching from behind.

See:
(MPEG)
http://massbike.org/police/mpg/rightturn.mpg
or
(MP4)
http://massbike.org/police/MP4/Right_Turn.mp4

[joejack951]

Of the two or three times i have been clipped one was one a highway by a guy towing a caravan, the second was crusing through town on a straight road with a speed limit of 80kms and the third was at traffic lights by an impatient driver

For the first and second examples, were those vehicles by themselves, in the front of a pack, or inside of a pack of vehicles? Assuming one of the first two options, positioning yourself further left, outside of the bike lane, can help considerably in getting more space in these situations. Often times, when motorists see a cyclist in a bike lane, they only pay attention to being to the left of the stripe and pay no attention to where the cyclist is in the bike lane as long as they are to the right of the stripe. This often results in very close passes and I've heard of quite a few cyclists getting clipped by mirrors that hang into the bike lane even when the vehicle's wheels are outside of it. The trailer incident is something I've had to deal with on narrow roadways. I've learned to force them as far left as possible (while still keeping reasonable space for them to pass), letting the tow vehicle get by then moving back right as the trailer passes as it almost always swings right earlier than the driver seems to think it will. With a bike lane, you have plenty of room to get the driver first to move left then move yourself to the right to maximize the space between you and him. For a vehicle in a pack clipping you, about the best you can do is monitor traffic in a rear view mirror and look for close passes. Again, get yourself as much space as you can from the start and move right only as needed.

At the traffic light, were you blocking a turning vehicle by being in the bike lane?

[sggoodri]

If more motorists drove in the bike lane more of the time, over a greater distance, the debris would get swept past the bike lane.

[Helmet Head]

On my ride home last night I experimented. Riding in a bike lane, near the stripe, about 15 mph (slight upgrade) I was watching in my mirror traffic go by on my left at about 40. They were following a line a few feet from the BL stripe, not adjusting for my presence. I started zig-zigging. I would zig from about the center of the bike lane to the stripe, back and forth. Nothing wild. Really, just smooth constant "S" curves. Immediately the traffic behind me responded by moving a few feet left, closer to the left edge of their lane. It was like a dance.

[rando]

If more motorists drove in the bike lane more of the time, over a greater distance, the debris would get swept past the bike lane.

this is a good point.

[Roughstuff]

Generally if traffic backs up too much, people look for whatever they can find to jump the line... parking lots, side streets, and bike lanes. I've never had anyone act aggressively in a dedicated bike lane, but in the diamond lanes (for buses bikes taxis) I've been honked at by cars that were not allowed to be there in the first place.

I feel that since I enter the 'car lane' on a regular basis (to avoid a pothole, to improve road surface, to bypass a parked car, to turn left if the left turn lane is a doable option) yadda yadda, it would be the height of hypocrisy to grudge cars entering the 'bike lane' for what very often is the same motive--convenience. I say share the road.

roughstuff

[Roughstuff]

On my ride home last night I experimented. Riding in a bike lane, near the stripe, about 15 mph (slight upgrade) I was watching in my mirror traffic go by on my left at about 40. They were following a line a few feet from the BL stripe, not adjusting for my presence. I started zig-zigging. I would zig from about the center of the bike lane to the stripe, back and forth. Nothing wild. Really, just smooth constant "S" curves. Immediately the traffic behind me responded by moving a few feet left, closer to the left edge of their lane. It was like a dance.


Wow...what a great idea. Lets let cars, trucks, buses, (we are ALL TRAFFIC, right? ;)) and semi's start doing nice little sine wave motions back and forth in their lanes on the road, and maybe we can pipe in music to give 'em a rhythm to sway to. If you saw a car behind you swaying back and forth in his lane, would it make you hug the right of the bike lane as ya got a bit nervous? Would it be like a 'dance?'

Alot of street punks ride erratically in the shoulder all the time, and as I say so often, it destroys all the goodwill that drivers develop seeing experienced, courteous and long distance cyclists.


roughstuff

[LittleBigMan]

Generally I find most Drivers to be quite friendly buthis is a massive generalisation) I have most problems with p platers and ute or small truck drivers.
Ebt racer, are you in Australia?

[yuhoo]

Cars in reserved bike lane?

I do not know about your city. But in Ottawa, bike lanes and bus lanes are reserved lanes and have the same legal status. Motorists driving on them can be a cash cow for the city coffers - the fine is $150, no demerit points deducted though. A taxicab or a transit bus can stop to load and unload passengers up to 45 seconds in a bike lane (that is what the law says, 45 seconds to be exact, get a stop watch?), OR there is no time limit for taxicabs and buses to load or unload disabled passengers. Otherwise, parking, stopping and standing on the bike lane is a no no, subject to a fine of $35. If the traffic is very busy, the car parked on the bike lane may be towed. Of course, cyclists can call the parking control or police departments for cars violating parking by laws, including those parked on bike lanes.

But if a driver clips a cyclist in a bike lane, the charge can be "improper lane change" and the fine is also $120, with two demerit points. Of course, if the cyclist is injured, the motorist who is "at fault" under the Provincial Insurance Act, will also face an increase in premium ---- actually this is a stronger deterent for motorists to drive carefully. Try involving in accidents "at fault" for a couple of times, a motorist may not even be able to find any insurance companies accepting him.

Things work two ways. If a cyclist crosses the bike lane into the regular traffic lane and gets hit, he will also be charged with "improper lane change" with $120 fine as usual, but with no demerit points (demerit points do not apply to cyclists). As far as insurance is concerned, the motorist will not face any premium increases, but the cyclist may, if he has a car. Good reason for cyclists to be car free!!!

In both scenarios, accident awards are standard according to applicable legislations, such as property damages, medical care, loss wages, loss tuitions (for students), etc. If the cyclists want more compensation, such as staying in a private ward in the hospital with cable TV, he will have to buy addition coverage in his own insurance policy.

[Ebt racer]

I feel that since I enter the 'car lane' on a regular basis (to avoid a pothole, to improve road surface, to bypass a parked car, to turn left if the left turn lane is a doable option) yadda yadda, it would be the height of hypocrisy to grudge cars entering the 'bike lane' for what very often is the same motive--convenience. I say share the road. roughstuff

Yes this is a fair point, however hypocrisy doesn't come into it. Its a legal issue, a bike can take (by law) as much of the road as required. A car can't under most circumstances drive in the bike lanes. And no matter which way you look at it, If you get hit by a car you will always come off second best

Ebt racer, are you in Australia?

Yes I'm an Aussie!

[ghettocruiser]

Sorry, I think the point was missed back there.

The goal of diamond lanes was to ENCOURAGE bike and transit use by allowing them to BYPASS backups of cars. To allow cars to use these lanes for 'convenience' would utterly defeat the purpose of them existing.

I'm not talking about cars squeezing by an accident or construction that is totally blocking the other lanes, I'm talking about cars driving in the bike lanes to pass other cars that are obeying the law.

Bikes aren't allowed on freeways and cars aren't supposed to be in bike lanes. The 'share the road' argument is not applicable and the hypocrisy non-existent. Unless your city is trying to encourage more people to drive or something.

[UmneyDurak]

See:
(MPEG)
http://massbike.org/police/mpg/rightturn.mpg
or
(MP4)
http://massbike.org/police/MP4/Right_Turn.mp4
yeah lets see how well that works when you are going around 20 car passes you and immediatly turns right, with car behind it that is now parallel to you.

[Roughstuff]

Yes this is a fair point, however hypocrisy doesn't come into it. Its a legal issue, a bike can take (by law) as much of the road as required. A car can't under most circumstances drive in the bike lanes. And no matter which way you look at it, If you get hit by a car you will always come off second best





YEah I think hypocrisy really isn't the word, and also I don't want to get overly legalistic about it. But your comment that a car 'in most circumstances'; is the key point. I agree in most circumstances that (1) I should be on the shoulder and (2) vehicles should be in their car lanes. But there are occasional circusmstances where I may wish to veer to the left (if it is safe to do so) and they may wish to veer to the right (if it is safe to do so).

roughstuff

[ghettocruiser]

^^^ Fair enough. It's just when the the bike or bike/bus lane turns into (yet) another lane of cars that I start making noise.

[John E]

WHERE IS THIS ERSATZ CYCLING PARADISE? I want to go there, just for vacation. - I rode 65 miles today, helemt head, how much did you ride? you think i don't ride like a vehicle........

It's called La Jolla CA, near the UCSD campus. I currently visit the area one night per week to teach my class, and my elder son lives just south of campus, so I know the neighborhood well. There are LOTS of bicyclists, many of whom behave far less vehicularly than HH, but the point is that motorists expect to encounter bicyclists and are accustomed to sharing the road with them. The general population is affluent, well-educated, socially tolerant, and environmentally conscious. Traffic can be heavy and congested at times, but flows freely most of the day, so road rage is generally not a big concern.

[Helmet Head]

It's called La Jolla CA, near the UCSD campus. I currently visit the area one night per week to teach my class, and my elder son lives just south of campus, so I know the neighborhood well. There are LOTS of bicyclists, many of whom behave far less vehicularly than HH, but the point is that motorists expect to encounter bicyclists and are accustomed to sharing the road with them. The general population is affluent, well-educated, socially tolerant, and environmentally conscious. Traffic can be heavy and congested at times, but flows freely most of the day, so road rage is generally not a big concern.
What are you talking about? Genesee? Torrey Pines between La Jolla Farms and UCSD? Okay, but I don't commute there.

Have you ridden on La Jolla Village Drive between Gilman and Genesee during commute hours lately? Cyclists are expected there? You've got to be kidding. Until I get to Regents, I almost never encounter any other cyclists.

Flows freely most of the day? Trying to get on/off the I-5? Hello?

[jisho]

In SF the bike lanes are used by everyone. Parents dropping kids off for school; double parking in them is rampant. The meter maids drive in them as their own personal highway. I've encountered a few mopeds using them some of which I've passed. Lot's of clueless and don't give a damn people in the world.

[sbhikes]

It's called La Jolla CA, near the UCSD campus. I currently visit the area one night per week to teach my class, and my elder son lives just south of campus, so I know the neighborhood well. There are LOTS of bicyclists, many of whom behave far less vehicularly than HH, but the point is that motorists expect to encounter bicyclists and are accustomed to sharing the road with them. The general population is affluent, well-educated, socially tolerant, and environmentally conscious. Traffic can be heavy and congested at times, but flows freely most of the day, so road rage is generally not a big concern.

Don't let HH hear you. He rides in that area.

Also, that bicycling paradise is in Santa Barbara. Here's a picture:
http://freepages.thesecretlabs.com/~mechbgon/6.jpg

[genec]

It's called La Jolla CA, near the UCSD campus. I currently visit the area one night per week to teach my class, and my elder son lives just south of campus, so I know the neighborhood well. There are LOTS of bicyclists, many of whom behave far less vehicularly than HH, but the point is that motorists expect to encounter bicyclists and are accustomed to sharing the road with them. The general population is affluent, well-educated, socially tolerant, and environmentally conscious. Traffic can be heavy and congested at times, but flows freely most of the day, so road rage is generally not a big concern.

Care to contrast that area with other areas of town where the population is perhaps not so "affluent, well-educated, socially tolerant, and environmentally conscious."

What sort of drivers might one find in those "other areas."

[Daily Commute]

There's a recent Texas study that found that bike lanes caused motorists to buzz by cyclists more closely. The traffic planners who did the study said that was a good thing.

[Bekologist]

actually, that study showed both better positioning by bicyclists a well as more consistent, safer passing by drivers of cyclists in a more appropriate roadway position because of the bike lane stripe.

[Daily Commute]

actually, that study showed both better positioning by bicyclists a well as more consistent, safer passing by drivers of cyclists in a more appropriate roadway position because of the bike lane stripe.
The data from the study (http://www.utexas.edu/research/ctr/pdf_reports/0_5157_1.pdf) show only that drivers buzzed cyclists more closely on roads with striped lanes than on roads without stiped lanes. The study's authors then declared that it's safer for cars to buzz cyclists more closely than to give cyclists more space. The study's data also showed that on roads with bike lanes, cars were less likely to move to the left to move around cyclists. I'd argue that it's less safe for cyclists when cars refuse to move over and buzz cyclists more closely.

You are right, there was one positive--cyclists rode a little farther from the curb, but there are other ways to achieve that (education, signage). Since they hired cyclists and gave them instructions, it would have been interesting to see if cyclist behavior changed the same or more if the cyclists were told that they were safer if they did not hug the curb.

[Bekologist]

you are spinnning that study so cheaply you should be ashamed of yourself, daily commute.

[Helmet Head]

you are spinnning that study so cheaply you should be ashamed of yourself, daily commute.
And we'll take the word of your empty assertions. :rolleyes:

[Daily Commute]

you are spinnning that study so cheaply you should be ashamed of yourself, daily commute.
I started a new thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=235152) to discuss this study.

[Bekologist]

that study showed how bike lane stripes encouraged safer passing and a more appropriate road position among bicyclists. bike lane stripes encouraged a more appropriate road position. out of the gutter, so to speak. interesting study.

[sgtsmile]

Cars in reserved bike lane?

I do not know about your city. But in Ottawa, bike lanes and bus lanes are reserved lanes and have the same legal status. Motorists driving on them can be a cash cow for the city coffers - the fine is $150, no demerit points deducted though. A taxicab or a transit bus can stop to load and unload passengers up to 45 seconds in a bike lane (that is what the law says, 45 seconds to be exact, get a stop watch?), OR there is no time limit for taxicabs and buses to load or unload disabled passengers. Otherwise, parking, stopping and standing on the bike lane is a no no, subject to a fine of $35. If the traffic is very busy, the car parked on the bike lane may be towed. Of course, cyclists can call the parking control or police departments for cars violating parking by laws, including those parked on bike lanes.

But if a driver clips a cyclist in a bike lane, the charge can be "improper lane change" and the fine is also $120, with two demerit points. Of course, if the cyclist is injured, the motorist who is "at fault" under the Provincial Insurance Act, will also face an increase in premium ---- actually this is a stronger deterent for motorists to drive carefully. Try involving in accidents "at fault" for a couple of times, a motorist may not even be able to find any insurance companies accepting him.

Things work two ways. If a cyclist crosses the bike lane into the regular traffic lane and gets hit, he will also be charged with "improper lane change" with $120 fine as usual, but with no demerit points (demerit points do not apply to cyclists). As far as insurance is concerned, the motorist will not face any premium increases, but the cyclist may, if he has a car. Good reason for cyclists to be car free!!!

In both scenarios, accident awards are standard according to applicable legislations, such as property damages, medical care, loss wages, loss tuitions (for students), etc. If the cyclists want more compensation, such as staying in a private ward in the hospital with cable TV, he will have to buy addition coverage in his own insurance policy.

Right on, except that a cyclist getting charged under the Highway Traffic Act gets the demerit points as well as the fines...

[Daily Commute]

that study showed how bike lane stripes encouraged safer passing and a more appropriate road position among bicyclists. bike lane stripes encouraged a more appropriate road position. out of the gutter, so to speak. interesting study.
Response here (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=3181526&postcount=3).