Riding on roads with bike lanes

[SSP]

First riding outside a BL is not at all illegal in AZ. As a CM proponent, you should know these laws.Check Law. (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00815.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS)
Second, the BL are not swept regulary. Definitely not regularly enough to prevent debris build up. I have video evidence of debris staying in BLs for many weeks at a time.
The photo you post is classic Tempe bad BL design, with multiple right turns immedately across intersection into gas station, Thai resturaunt, Kinkos, etc. (see attachment) When you are starting up you are in blind spot of some drivers, at near same speed and some will turn right. This is a place where I stay out of BL.

Al

If you filter to the front in that bike lane, and start up quickly when the light changes, how would you be in the blind spot of any drivers? I ride that sort of intersection pretty regularly on my commute, and I'm normally ahead of the cars when I reach the far side of the intersection. Even if I'm not, it's not like they can't see me.

Of course, there's still the occasional right hook (mostly due to drivers underestimating my speed), but that would occur just as often as when there's no BL.

[noisebeam]

If you filter to the front in that bike lane, and start up quickly when the light changes, how would you be in the blind spot of any drivers? I ride that sort of intersection pretty regularly on my commute, and I'm normally ahead of the cars when I reach the far side of the intersection. Even if I'm not, it's not like they can't see me.

Of course, there's still the occasional right hook (mostly due to drivers underestimating my speed), but that would occur just as often as when there's no BL.
Drivers are going 30mph+ by the time they reach the gas station. There is no way any cyclist even of excellent fitness will be ahead of lead car at the turns.
I just line up with cars at this and similar intersections. Every day.
Al

[SSP]

Drivers are going 30mph+ by the time they reach the gas station. There is no way any cyclist even of excellent fitness will be ahead of lead car at the turns.
I just line up with cars at this and similar intersections. Every day.
Al

Only the lead car would be able to accelerate quickly from the light, and they wouldn't be hitting 30mph if they're planning to make a right into the gas station.

FWIW, I just filter forward in the designated bike lane and pedal out when the light changes...every day. YMMV.

BTW - you didn't answer my question about how riding in the designated bike lane there would put the cyclist in the driver's "blind spot". By filtering forward, all the drivers see me...if they pass me, they see me again. Just askin'.

[noisebeam]

Only the lead car would be able to accelerate quickly from the light, and they wouldn't be hitting 30mph if they're planning to make a right into the gas station.

FWIW, I just filter forward in the designated bike lane and pedal out when the light changes...every day. YMMV.

BTW - you didn't answer my question about how riding in the designated bike lane there would put the cyclist in the driver's "blind spot". By filtering forward, all the drivers see me...if they pass me, they see me again. Just askin'.
All I am descibing is that when one stays to the right accelerating out of green light a line of cars does the same to ones left, but on roads like this always faster than the cyclist. Being to the right of cars with close spacing, not only are you out of mind, but often blocked and out of sight. It is one of the surest places to get right hooked. Two weeks ago based on a thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=231399&page=4)sbhikes started (static lane positioning) I actually tried riding in the BL thru intersections exactly like this and was near RHed multiple times (either me or driver made rapid stops to avoid) - was on ultra high alert to swerve left behind possible turning drivers. It was significantly harder and clearly more dangerous than staying in the primary lane, I was glad to end my experiment.

There is often a lot of debate about BLs on more rural roads or roads with no intersections, etc. But it is rare to find someone like you who advocates staying in the BL or shoulder riding across multiple potential right turns like this. Brian doesn't, Diane does, Genec doesn't (yes I am putting words in their mouth and will happily admit I misundestood them in the past if I just misrepresented them)

Al

[Paul L.]

All I am descibing is that when one stays to the right accelerating out of green light a line of cars does the same to ones left, but on roads like this always faster than the cyclist. Being to the right of cars with close spacing, not only are you out of mind, but often blocked and out of sight. It is one of the surest places to get right hooked. Two weeks ago based on a thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=231399&page=4)sbhikes started (static lane positioning) I actually tried riding in the BL thru intersections exactly like this and was near RHed multiple times (either me or driver made rapid stops to avoid) - was on ultra high alert to swerve left behind possible turning drivers. It was significantly harder and clearly more dangerous than staying in the primary lane, I was glad to end my experiment.

There is often a lot of debate about BLs on more rural roads or roads with no intersections, etc. But it is rare to find someone like you who advocates staying in the BL or shoulder riding across multiple potential right turns like this. Brian doesn't, Diane does, Genec doesn't (yes I am putting words in their mouth and will happily admit I misundestood them in the past if I just misrepresented them)

Al

Are you talking about the bike lanes that stay to the right of the right turn lane? Fortunately I don't have any of those on my commute anymore. I do try to stay in the straight going lane if possible (one of the few times I will ditch the bike lane usually, other than debris of course).

[CommuterRun]

What do you reccomend when the street is one way for cars (or bikes going in the same direction), but has a bike lane going in the opposite direction (only bikes are going that way). Would you advocate running directly into a car's hood in this case?

I'm asking because Calgary's single bike lane is contra-directional (about 100m worth). And yes - before there was a bike lane I felt it neccesary to go against traffic on this street (better than going two blocks in the wrong direction)?????
In this case you work to get an incompetent city planner fired and find a different route.

[SSP]

All I am descibing is that when one stays to the right accelerating out of green light a line of cars does the same to ones left, but on roads like this always faster than the cyclist. Being to the right of cars with close spacing, not only are you out of mind, but often blocked and out of sight. It is one of the surest places to get right hooked. Two weeks ago based on a thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=231399&page=4)sbhikes started (static lane positioning) I actually tried riding in the BL thru intersections exactly like this and was near RHed multiple times (either me or driver made rapid stops to avoid) - was on ultra high alert to swerve left behind possible turning drivers. It was significantly harder and clearly more dangerous than staying in the primary lane, I was glad to end my experiment.

There is often a lot of debate about BLs on more rural roads or roads with no intersections, etc. But it is rare to find someone like you who advocates staying in the BL or shoulder riding across multiple potential right turns like this. Brian doesn't, Diane does, Genec doesn't (yes I am putting words in their mouth and will happily admit I misundestood them in the past if I just misrepresented them)

Al

I guess I don't understand your position.

In the scenario pictured, the right hook issues would occur on the far side of the intersection (the BL is to the left of the right turn lane). With driveways, one always has to be aware of right hooks, but I don't see that the presence, or absence, of a BL changes that.

If you were riding on the far side of that intersection, would you be in the BL? Or, taking the lane (with 30mph+ drivers)?

[noisebeam]

I guess I don't understand your position.

In the scenario pictured, the right hook issues would occur on the far side of the intersection (the BL is to the left of the right turn lane). With driveways, one always has to be aware of right hooks, but I don't see that the presence, or absence, of a BL changes that.

If you were riding on the far side of that intersection, would you be in the BL? Or, taking the lane (with 30mph+ drivers)?
On the far side of the intersection I would not be in the BL.
You are right the presence of BL stripe does not change that I will be in center position (vs. right biased) to prevent right hooks.
Al

[noisebeam]

Are you talking about the bike lanes that stay to the right of the right turn lane? Fortunately I don't have any of those on my commute anymore. I do try to stay in the straight going lane if possible (one of the few times I will ditch the bike lane usually, other than debris of course).
No I am talking about the pic of Rural and University that wheel posted and the attachment I provided.
I would not be in the BL passing by those four sequential turns into businesses.
Al

[SSP]

On the far side of the intersection I would not be in the BL.
You are right the presence of BL stripe does not change that I will be in center position (vs. right biased) to prevent right hooks.
Al

On a single lane road, with a presumed speed limit of about 40 mph, and a designated bike lane?

How long would you ride in the center position? It looks like there are driveways (i.e., right hook opportunties) as far up the road as the eye can see. Do you only ride in the BL when there are no driveways? Do you get honked at much?

[Helmet Head]

When riding on narrow neighborhood roads with low traffic, I am in the primary position. Most of the time, I am on busy roads with a steady flow of cars and am in the secondary position. I would suppose that the primary is my default, but 95% of the time, I am in the secondary. What do you think?

Paul
I think that makes sense. Busy roads with stready flows of fast cars are what they are, and there's very little leeway for cyclists on this roads. If the outside lane is wide enough to safely share, you share it; if not, you control it using the primary position. Sounds like in your case they are wide enough to share (whether or not there is a BL stripe).

[TRaffic Jammer]

It reads like the way the adults talk in Charlie Brown cartoons.

Whaaaa whhooooo waaaa whhaaaaa wooo woo....

[noisebeam]

On a single lane road, with a presumed speed limit of about 40 mph, and a designated bike lane?

How long would you ride in the center position? It looks like there are driveways (i.e., right hook opportunties) as far up the road as the eye can see. Do you only ride in the BL when there are no driveways? Do you get honked at much?
It is a multilane road (two same direction east bound lanes)
I ride in the center while approaching or going thru an intersection. Yes there are driveways ahead, yes I stay out of BL. Sure some folks honk, but its far better than getting right hooked.
I also move right into BL if safe and when I am aware of drivers intentions behind me to be courteous .
I would get honked at much less if the stripe was not there and the lane width remained (WOL). It would also mean I would not have to ride as far from curb to prevent right hooks.
Al

[SSP]

It is a multilane road (two same direction east bound lanes)
I ride in the center while approaching or going thru an intersection. Yes there are driveways ahead, yes I stay out of BL. Sure some folks honk, but its far better than getting right hooked.
I would get honked at much less if the stripe was not there and the lane width remained (WOL). It would also mean I would not have to ride as far from curb to prevent right hooks.
Al

Interesting...most of my in-town commute is on multi-lane roads with no BL, so there I just take the lane.

But about a mile or so of my commute is on a very similar roadway to what you've pictured. On that, I've had no issues with RH's using the BL. I typically ride very close to the BL lane stripe (mostly to avoid cars from the right sticking their noses out). However, I tend to ride pretty fast (20-24 mph on the flats), and perhaps that helps with the RH's, or maybe there's just less traffic where I ride.

FWIW, I've experienced RH's, even when I was taking the lane...impatient drivers don't much care whether you're VC or not. But, that's one reason I use a mirror so I can (hopefully) detect those bone-head moves before they threaten me.

[Helmet Head]

First of there are a lot of different conditions on the road, from urban to rural, straight to curvy, lots of intersecting drives to limited accesses, extra width for cyclists and no extra width for cyclists, heavy traffic to light traffic, fast traffic speeds to slow traffic speeds, slow cyclists to fast cyclists, courteous on the watch out for cyclists drivers and discourteous drivers. I strongly feel that there is no one way to ride safely through all possible combination of variables.
:beer:

Just as driver’s ed teaches drivers to stay in the middle lane of a freeway which does has some validity but when that is practiced under a wide variety of conditions some of those conditions are unsafe or just down right irritating to other divers. Driving like a zombie with one rule fits all situations is not a good thing, similarly riding with one rule fits all is not good. Driving/riding is complex and no amount of wishful thinking or simplification of the rules is going to make it any less complex.
:beer:

DLLP is in my tool box and nothing more.
Huh? When you say "DLLP is in my tool box and nothing more", do you mean "riding in a centered position is in my tool box and nothing more"? I think you're confusing DLLP with "taking the lane".

Using the primary riding position (controlling the lane) when it's safe, reasonable and appropriate is part of DLLP, but not all of DLLP! In fact, everything else you say above, prior to this statement, is DLLP.

Right now my position (theory) is that bike lanes are designed around a cyclist traveling at 10mph. When a cyclist is traveling above that speed, bike lanes can get increasingly dicey. Poorly designed bike lanes are hazardous even at 10mph. These are the prominent factors that influence me to pull DLLP out of my tool box when a bike lane is present.
Here, you make it sound like riding at 8 mph in the bike lane is contrary to DLLP. At that low of a speed, the advantages of being further left are subject to the law of diminishing returns, so when riding that slowly intentionally choosing a far right position is not inconsistent with DLLP.

I do a lot of riding with another cycling advocate whose average speed is 8mph (vs. mine at 16mph) and my perception of road conditions and my resulting lane position is a lot different riding with him then when riding by myself.
Sure, but you can use DLLP at both speeds. I use DLLP when riding on my road bike, and also when pulling my kid in a trailer using my mountain bike or tandem. Your own speed is just but one of the factors that goes into determining the most appropriate lateral intralane position, and that's all part of DLLP.

The only time a cyclist is not using DLLP is when he is mindlessly sticking to one lateral position ("as far right as practicable") within the lane, or mindlessly riding in a bike lane or shoulder, except to avoid hazards. But just because you're keeping to the right does not mean you're not using DLLP. DLLP is all about intentionally using your lateral intralane position to your advantage, and that includes riding in the secondary riding position (about 3' to the right of faster passing traffic) when safe, reasonable and appropriate to do so, which often happens to coincide with being "as far right as practicable".

[Helmet Head]

If you filter to the front in that bike lane, and start up quickly when the light changes, how would you be in the blind spot of any drivers? I ride that sort of intersection pretty regularly on my commute, and I'm normally ahead of the cars when I reach the far side of the intersection. Even if I'm not, it's not like they can't see me.

Of course, there's still the occasional right hook (mostly due to drivers underestimating my speed), but that would occur just as often as when there's no BL.
No, those right hooks would not occur just as often as when there's no BL, unless you're still positioning yourself too far to the right when there is no BL.

[noisebeam]

Interesting...most of my in-town commute is on multi-lane roads with no BL, so there I just take the lane.

But about a mile or so of my commute is on a very similar roadway to what you've pictured. On that, I've had no issues with RH's using the BL. I typically ride very close to the BL lane stripe (mostly to avoid cars from the right sticking their noses out). However, I tend to ride pretty fast (20-24 mph on the flats), and perhaps that helps with the RH's, or maybe there's just less traffic where I ride.

FWIW, I've experienced RH's, even when I was taking the lane...impatient drivers don't much care whether you're VC or not. But, that's one reason I use a mirror so I can (hopefully) detect those bone-head moves before they threaten me.
I use a mirror to. I too ride ~25mph also.
I've tried riding on the line, to many close passes and does not prevent right hook (as you note even right wheel position doesn't always, which is why center position is needed)
There is a lot of traffic in rush hour not all makes it thru every light cycle. Of the 10 or so cars that pass me after the light if I stay to the right, there are always 1-3 who turn right into the shopping center or gas station. Always.
As an aside, me riding in the center of the lane getting up to 25mph does not slow the line of traffic any more than those 1-3 drivers who slow to turn. Sure there is always a few cars in front of turning car who could go faster.
Al

[SSP]

No, those right hooks would not occur just as often as when there's no BL

And you know this, how?

FWIW, I've been right-hooked when taking the lane in the right tire track at 25+mph.

RH's are mostly caused by drivers who are either: a) impatient, or b) don't realize how quickly a bike is travelling. To get right hooked, the vehicle has to pass the bike...so "conspicuity" is not as much of an issue.

[SSP]

I use a mirror to.
I too ride fast, usually ~25mph also.
There is a lot of traffic in rush hour not all makes it thru every light cycle. Of the 10 or so cars that pass me after the light if I stay to the right, there are always 1-3 who turn right into the shopping center or gas station. Always.
As an aside, me riding in the center of the lane getting up to 25mph does not slow the line of traffic any more than those 1-3 drivers who slow to turn. Sure there is always a few cars in front of turning car who could go faster.
Al

OK...now I understand. If there's always going to be right turners, you might as well take that lane...in most of my commute, there's not the frequency of right turners.

But, I do pass by an elementary school each morning where there's usually a lot of parents making rights into the school. For that stretch of my commute, I normally move over to the left hand lane (I'm too impatient to sit behind a long line of cars waiting to make a right :D ).

re: "not all makes it thru every light cycle"
Does that mean that you have to sit through multiple light cycles because you're not filtering up in the bike lane? Sitting there behind a line of cars breathing fumes while waiting through multiple cycles would drive me crazy...but, I've been known to make the Right-U-Right manuever too. :D

[noisebeam]

OK...now I understand. If there's always going to be right turners, you might as well take that lane....
Which means riding in center of lane past every intersection as there are always going to be right turners. Or do you sometimes gamble there may not be?

Al

[SSP]

Which means riding in center of lane past every intersection as there are always going to be right turners. Or do you sometimes gamble there may not be?

Al

I guess I do...where I ride, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. There's one multi-lane intersection like that I pass through every day. There's a gas station on the far side. Every once in a while, the lead car will make the right into the station...but, it's usually very obvious and I've never even had to brake to avoid it. Traffic further back will see me and wait till I'm clear before turning in (based on observations in my mirror).

Perhaps the drivers here in northern Cali are trained a bit better, or a bit less impatient, or maybe there's just less of 'em, because I haven't had the problems you describe.

[Helmet Head]

Al, and SSP... interesting discussion. I have a similar situation on my commute.

I have a left turn from a 6 lane arterial to a 4 lane much slower road. There are 2 left turn only lanes, and I usually, but not always, control the right turn lane. The left arrow is always red when I get to the intersection, and I wait my turn like everyone else. When the left arrow turns green, I'm usually able to keep up with traffic through the wide left turn to the new street, which has a bike lane.

The problem is that within 100 feet there is a driveway into a popular parking garage, and very often drivers are turning right into there. Then, in another 100 feet or so, is a side street (they have a stop, my direction has no controls) to the right which is also popular. In other words, if, after taking the left, I get into the bike lane, I'm ripe right-hook bait. Of course, if there was no bike lane, and I kept to the right, I would be just as vulnerable. So, of course, I usually eschew the bike lane (not required by CA VC 21208 to use a bike lane whenever "approaching a place where a right turn is authorized") until after I get past the intersection, and then I use the bike lane only if there is any traffic remaining behind me that did not already turn right or pass me in the adjacent lane.

[noisebeam]

re: "not all makes it thru every light cycle"
Does that mean that you have to sit through multiple light cycles because you're not filtering up in the bike lane? Sitting there behind a line of cars breathing fumes while waiting through multiple cycles would drive me crazy...but, I've been known to make the Right-U-Right manuever too. :D
If a NOL yes, I wait. A time to relax and make faces at drivers ;)
If a WOL I may very carefully filter forward just enough to get far enough forward to make the green.
Strangely though on the intersections on my commute, even though not all of the line makes it is always seems to be part of the line behind me that doesn't. That is my timing is such I always end up front to mid line and make it. (Those behind me not making are not delayed because of me, I get up to 25mph as fast as the line)
Al

[noisebeam]

I guess I do...where I ride, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. There's one multi-lane intersection like that I pass through every day. There's a gas station on the far side. Every once in a while, the lead car will make the right into the station...but, it's usually very obvious and I've never even had to brake to avoid it. Traffic further back will see me and wait till I'm clear before turning in (based on observations in my mirror).

Perhaps the drivers here in northern Cali are trained a bit better, or a bit less impatient, or maybe there's just less of 'em, because I haven't had the problems you describe.
The intersection where there are 1-3 definite turns (for those in the area this is eastbound Guadalupe across Rural and McClintok at 4-6pm) is pretty consistent. But some intersections I only see someone turning once or twice in a week of commuting. But I still avoid riding to the right.
Al

[SSP]

If a WOL I may very carefully filter forward just enough to get far enough forward to make the green.
Strangely though on the intersections on my commute, even though not all of the line makes it is always seems to be part of the line behind me that doesn't. That is my timing is such I always end up front to mid line and make it. (Those behind me not making are not delayed because of me, I get up to 25mph as fast as the line)
Al

So you don't filter all the way to the front then? Doesn't that then require you to cut back into the line of moving cars after the light changes? How do you pull that off?

[Helmet Head]

No, those right hooks would not occur just as often as when there's no BL, unless you're still positioning yourself too far to the right when there is no BL.

And you know this, how?

Because your lateral position is what determines the likelihood of being right hooked, not the presence of a stripe. So if you remove the stripe, and you're still riding in the exact same spot, I don't see how the likelihood of right hook would be any different. But, if you're riding further left (because you're not encouraged by the BL to stay so far right), then the likelihood of a RH is lower.

FWIW, I've been right-hooked when taking the lane in the right tire track at 25+mph.
Not me, but I've heard similar anecdotes from others. I'm not surprised. The primary riding position does not eliminate the possibility of being right-hooked, but it does greatly reduce the likelihood. Before I adopted the primary riding position as my default, I regularly had RH close-calls. Now, I can't remember the last one. It has been at least two years.

RH's are mostly caused by drivers who are either: a) impatient, or b) don't realize how quickly a bike is travelling. To get right hooked, the vehicle has to pass the bike...so "conspicuity" is not as much of an issue.

Yes, but a given driver who is planning on turning right is much less likely to pass a cyclist when doing so requires him to travel in the left lane than if he can easily just pass a cyclist who is off to his side.

Since a cyclist in the primary riding position is less likely to be passed by someone who is planning on making a right turn, then he is less likely to be right hooked.

I can't believe you're seriously challenging this.

[noisebeam]

If your are right biased and a driver comes up to your left slightly ahead and stops, but does not begin right turn (presumably to let you by) do you consider that a trained, less impatient driver?

I don't, I think it is terrible driver behavior. A driver who really cares and was well trained wouldn't even pass the cyclist stop ahead of them, but stay behind them until they need to make their right turn.

In these cases I still pass the driver on the left, even if they are waving me on.

Al

[noisebeam]

So you don't filter all the way to the front then? Doesn't that then require you to cut back into the line of moving cars after the light changes? How do you pull that off?
I communicate with drivers, pointing, arm signals, smiles. Most are very kind and let me in.
Al

[bmclaughlin807]

If there is a bike lane, I ride in the left hand portion of the bike lane, moving left if I have to avoid a hazard.

I have NEVER had an occasion where an overtaking vehicle appeared to not notice me, and several where a motorist intentionally tried to force me off the road.

I'll move left into the lane at intersections only if it's necessary to position myself over a sensor to trip the light.

My most recent run in with a motorist was a city bus that turned left from the street on my right onto the street I was on. He was at a stop sign, looked right at me, and proceeded to pull out in front of me, despite the fact that I was very near the intersection and travelling at about 25 mph. I fully expected him to attempt this, and since his accelleration was slow, I hit both brakes and went left, ending up in the lane he was turning into right in front of him. His eyes were on me the whole time, and I watched his head turn as he followed my path... he did stop, blocking both roads fully because I stopped right in front of him. I screamed and swore... he shrugged and flipped me off. We went on our way. Pretty typical of the people I run across: They see and JUST DON'T CARE.

[Helmet Head]

Which means riding in center of lane past every intersection as there are always going to be right turners. Or do you sometimes gamble there may not be?

I guess I do...where I ride, it doesn't seem to be much of a problem.

I'm not sure I would characterize it is as "much" of a problem where I ride either, but I would still rather not gamble (right hooks can cause serious injury and death).

Since the further left "primary riding position" serves me so well, including reducing the likelihood of behind right hooked, I don't see the downside of using it.

Perhaps the drivers here in northern Cali are trained a bit better, or a bit less impatient, or maybe there's just less of 'em, because I haven't had the problems you describe.
Or maybe your time just hasn't come yet. Why take that gamble?

Remember, per 21202 and 21208, you certainly have no legal obligation to stay to the right or in the bike lane in these situations ("whenever approaching a place where a right turn is authorized" is an exception in both sections of the vehicle code).

Why take the gamble?

[SSP]

If there is a bike lane, I ride in the left hand portion of the bike lane, moving left if I have to avoid a hazard.

I have NEVER had an occasion where an overtaking vehicle appeared to not notice me, and several where a motorist intentionally tried to force me off the road.

I'll move left into the lane at intersections only if it's necessary to position myself over a sensor to trip the light.

My most recent run in with a motorist was a city bus that turned left from the street on my right onto the street I was on. He was at a stop sign, looked right at me, and proceeded to pull out in front of me, despite the fact that I was very near the intersection and travelling at about 25 mph. I fully expected him to attempt this, and since his accelleration was slow, I hit both brakes and went left, ending up in the lane he was turning into right in front of him. His eyes were on me the whole time, and I watched his head turn as he followed my path... he did stop, blocking both roads fully because I stopped right in front of him. I screamed and swore... he shrugged and flipped me off. We went on our way. Pretty typical of the people I run across: They see and JUST DON'T CARE.


For that scenario, I would lay the bike down in the street and demand the driver open his door so that I could get his ID and report him to his supervisor. A cell phone with camera would also come in handy.

[Helmet Head]

If there is a bike lane, I ride in the left hand portion of the bike lane, moving left if I have to avoid a hazard.

I have NEVER had an occasion where an overtaking vehicle appeared to not notice me, and several where a motorist intentionally tried to force me off the road.
It's usually impossible to know when the driver of an overtaking vehicle overlooks you if you're riding off to the side out of the way. But you have certainly experienced drivers in cross traffic who have overlooked you, which is a much more serious problem, and a major reason why many of use the primary riding position in situations like you describe here:

My most recent run in with a motorist was a city bus that turned left from the street on my right onto the street I was on. He was at a stop sign, looked right at me, and proceeded to pull out in front of me, despite the fact that I was very near the intersection and travelling at about 25 mph. I fully expected him to attempt this, and since his accelleration was slow, I hit both brakes and went left, ending up in the lane he was turning into right in front of him. His eyes were on me the whole time, and I watched his head turn as he followed my path... he did stop, blocking both roads fully because I stopped right in front of him. I screamed and swore... he shrugged and flipped me off. We went on our way. Pretty typical of the people I run across: They see and JUST DON'T CARE.

I'm not saying it's not possible for a driver to look right at you and still pull out in front of you if you're in the primary riding position (ask any motorcyclist for a counter-example), but I can report from personal experience that it's MUCH less likely to happen than if you're riding relatively far to the right (whether in a bike lane or not).

Edit:

Given this:

I'll move left into the lane at intersections only if it's necessary to position myself over a sensor to trip the light.

I assume in this situation (when the bus pulled out in front of you from the right) that you had not moved left into the lane; that you were keeping to the right.

Let me ask you this: Was it unreasonable for the bus driver to assume that you were turning right onto the street that he was coming from? After all, you were properly positioned for right turning traffic, not for through traffic.

[noisebeam]

Here is an example I am not so proud of. Riding in BL, past an intersection that I had never seen anyone turn into before. Don't try this.

Almost Right Hook (http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/060329-0649.6670nearrh.avi)

To see this you need to right click on link and save it to your local drive, then you can view it in media player of choice. If you click directly all you will get it sound.

Al

[Helmet Head]

For that scenario, I would lay the bike down in the street and demand the driver open his door so that I could get his ID and report him to his supervisor. A cell phone with camera would also come in handy.
Why?

According to his habits as he described them, the cyclist was positioned as if he was turning right onto the street that the bus driver was pulling out of. Why should the bus driver wait and see if the cyclist is going straight or turning right, when the cyclist could easily let him know by taking a proper through position further to the left?
And we know there was no other same direction traffic at the time, or the bus driver could not have pulled out, so the presence of same direction traffic is not a possible excuse for the cyclist to not move further left.

This is VC 101: destination postioning. At intersections, choose your lane position as appropriate for your destination. If you're turning left, left; if you're turning right, right; if you're going straight, in between. If he stayed right, I don't see how you could blame the bus driver.

Edit:
By the way, this is exactly the type of scenario to which I was referring in the OP when I wrote:


The (huge) bonus of this method is that it automatically puts you in or near an excellent lateral position in terms of sight lines and conspicuity any time you encounter any kind of intersection, or if the lane narrows, or if you're on a 2-lane road to discourage oncoming traffic to pass in your lane, etc.

[SSP]

Here is an example I am not so proud of. Riding in BL, past an intersection that I had never seen anyone turn into before. Don't try this.

Almost Right Hook (http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/060329-0649.6670nearrh.avi)

To see this you need to right click on link and save it to your local drive, then you can view it in media player of choice. If you click directly all you will get it sound.

Al

Are you on a recumbent?

[SSP]

Why?

According to his habits, he was positioned as if he was turning right onto the street that the bus driver was pulling out of. Why should the bus driver wait and see if the cyclist is going straight or turning right, when the cyclist could easily let him know by taking a proper through position further to the left?
And we know there was no other same direction traffic at the time, or the bus driver could not have pulled out, so the presence of same direction traffic is not a possible excuse for the cyclist to not move further left.

This is VC 101: destination postioning. At intersections, choose your lane position as appropriate for your destination. If you're turning left, left; if you're turning right, right; if you're going straight, in between. If he stayed right, I don't see how you could blame the bus driver.

Edit:
By the way, this is exactly the type of scenario to which I was referring in the OP when I wrote:


He had not signalled a turn, and was moving at 25 mph on a street with no stop sign. And you're defending the bus driver for "assuming" he was going to make a high speed right turn? Bizarre.

Based on your logic, the bus driver could pull out in front of any right-lane vehicle on the assumption that he was "positioned as if he was turning right".

[noisebeam]

Are you on a recumbent?
No
Why? Do you want to blame my lower visibilty? Before going there, I wear ANSI yellow/lime shirts, two Cateeye LD1000s, etc.
Blame my lateral position though that was my error.
Al

[SSP]

No
Why? Do you want to blame my lower visibilty? Before going there, I wear ANSI yellow/lime shirts, two Cateeye LD1000s, etc.
Blame my lateral position though that was my error.
Al

From the video, it looked like you were pretty low.

As for blame...if I were on a jury, I'd assign 100% of the liability to the SUV driver (especially given your attire and Cateye's).

Note: a full water bottle, or a fist, makes a satisfying smack on the side panels in that scenario. :D

[sbhikes]

Why would you think he was on a recumbent? You can't see his feet.

And by the way, I don't care what anybody's opinion about bike lanes or "relevance" is, it's simply wrong for motorists to do that. The same motorists who drive like that are the same ones who run over pedestrians on the sidewalk.

[Helmet Head]

He had not signalled a turn, and was moving at 25 mph on a street with no stop sign. And you're defending the bus driver for "assuming" he was going to make a high speed right turn? Bizarre.

Based on your logic, the bus driver could pull out in front of any right-lane vehicle on the assumption that he was "positioned as if he was turning right".
That's true, if the lane is relatively wide compared to the vehicle in question.

We have many roads like that, where the right lane is wide. It's not a right only lane. Car drivers who are going straght keep to the left part of the lane, and those turning right drive near the curb (it's the law in CA, anyone making a right turn must drive as far right as practicable as he approaches the intersection where he is turning right).

In such a situation, if a bus driver on the side street looks left and sees a car coming that is biased right in its lane, near the curb, then, even though it's not signalling, I would not fault the bus driver for pulling out. The far right lane position is in effect a "signal"/indicator that the driver is not going straight, that he is turning right. I see no reason to require drivers to treat bicyclists any differently.

As to the cyclist traveling at 25 mph, I certainly can't hold the bus driver responsible for not noticing that, especially given where the cyclist was riding. Estimating cyclist speed accurately can be difficult to do, and when you're riding so far right, it's that much harder.

I suspect the bus driver looked left, looking for through traffic. He expected to see through traffic where he normally sees through traffic - in the center of the traffic lane to his left. So even though he was "looking" right at the cyclist, he didn't really notice him, at least not at first, because the cyclist was irrelevant to what he was looking for: through traffic in the space where the driver expects to see through traffic. Nothing else matter to him. It's classic inattentional blindness, and all traffic cyclists need to keep this in mind. It's natural behavior hard-wired by evolution in our DNA, and effective methods to deal with it are simply unknown. What we do know is that it helps to know that inattentional blindness exists, and that we can change our behavior to significantly reduce the likelihood (but not eliminate the possibility!) that we will fall victim to it. In this case, being in the space where the driver was looking for through traffic certainly could not have hurt. In my experience, doing so makes you MUCH less likely to be overlooked like this.

[SSP]

That's true, if the lane is relatively wide compared to the vehicle in question.

We have many roads like that, where the right lane is wide. It's not a right only lane. Car drivers who are going keep to the left part of the lane, and those turning right drive near the curb (it's the law in CA, anyone making a right turn must drive as far right as practicable as he approaches the intersection where he is turning right).

In such a situation, if a bus driver on the side street looks left and sees a car coming but is biased right in its lane, near the curb, then, even though it's not signalling, I would not fault the bus driver for pulling out. The far right lane position is in effect a "signal"/indicator that the driver is not going straight, that he is turning right. I see no reason to require drivers to treat bicyclists any differently.

Thank you for clarifying yet another of your bizarre ideas.

FWIW, try using that logic as an explanation to the judge and your insurance company if you pull out in front of another vehicle and get into an accident ("he was laterally biased towards the right, thus 'signalling' his intentions to make a turn...no, he didn't have his signals on...no, he wasn't slowing down...no, I'm not a mind reader...").

[noisebeam]

And by the way, I don't care what anybody's opinion about bike lanes or "relevance" is, it's simply wrong for motorists to do that. The same motorists who drive like that are the same ones who run over pedestrians on the sidewalk.
In an ideal world we could ride in the BL.
But it is not and will never be ideal.
Wouldn't it be great if all motorists could be trained to stay behind the cyclist before turning right?
Until you can assure me 100% of motorists are trained and 100% will do this, I am not going to take the chance (except for experiments ;) )

A couple weeks ago I did this experiment 'static lane positioning' and got near right hooked like this about 8 times in 5x of the same 2mi stretch. Unfortunately the video didn't work due to memory card errors, although I may have some recorded.

Al

[Blue Order]

In an ideal world we could ride in the BL.In the real world I do ride in the bike lane.

[noisebeam]

From the video, it looked like you were pretty low.

As for blame...if I were on a jury, I'd assign 100% of the liability to the SUV driver (especially given your attire and Cateye's).

Note: a full water bottle, or a fist, makes a satisfying smack on the side panels in that scenario. :D
I am quite high up, a 61cm frame, 6'2", but camera is on handlebars, maybe you are used to seeing helment mount camera results.
Sure if the driver had hit they are legally at fault. Who cares? I'd stil be injured. If I can better control the situation by changing my behavior, isn't that a better solution instead of laying blame post-accident?

And as to whacking them, it does seem as if they did intend for me to pass on their right. Not a chance I would take, but what would the wacking accomplish? It would not teach them to stay behind me until they reach the turn, that would required dialog. It would instead teach them that even when they don't turn in front of a cyclist they still get disrepected.

Al

[noisebeam]

In the real world I do ride in the bike lane.
Sure I do to, but not when it is unsafe.
Al

[SSP]

I am quite high up, a 61cm frame, 6'2", but camera is on handlebars, maybe you are used to seeing helment mount camera results.
Sure if the driver had hit they are legally at fault. Who cares? I'd stil be injured. If I can better control the situation by changing my behavior, isn't that a better solution instead of laying blame post-accident?

And as to whacking them, it does seem as if they did intend for me to pass on their right. Not a chance I would take, but what would the wacking accomplish? It would not teach them to stay behind me until they reach the turn, that would required dialog. It would instead teach them that even when they don't turn in front of a cyclist they still get disrepected.

Al

Good point re: wacking. In that scenario, and since they were turning into a parking lot, I'd probably follow them and give them my stern "don't do that" lecture...respectful, but very assertive. I've found most drivers are pretty clueless about how to navigate around bikes, and some have even expressed appreciation at being told the "right" way to handle encounters with bikes.

[Blue Order]

Sure I do to, but not when it is unsafe.
AlIf the bike lane isn't safe-- for example, if it's in the door zone-- I ride outside the bike lane.

[noisebeam]

Good point re: wacking. In that scenario, and since they were turning into a parking lot, I'd probably follow them and give them my stern "don't do that" lecture
In this case they were turning into a sidestreet and would be quickly up to 30mph with no chance of me catching them.
Even so, I am not one to chase and lecture. I will do it though if no off route chase is involved.
Al

[noisebeam]

If the bike lane isn't safe-- for example, if it's in the door zone-- I ride outside the bike lane.
This is the deal about the endess BF debates about BLs. We all have a differing understanding/experience/tollerance/acceptance of what constitutes safe when in a BL.
door zone, right turn potential, left hook potential, debris, visibility, etc.
Nearly every somewhat experienced cyclist agress DZ riding is unsafe and that even cyclist villigance will not be sufficient.
Most agree right biased thru intersections is dangerous, some think awareness will be sufficient, others don't.

Al

[Helmet Head]

Thank you for clarifying yet another of your bizarre ideas.

FWIW, try using that logic as an explanation to the judge and your insurance company if you pull out in front of another vehicle and get into an accident ("he was laterally biased towards the right, thus 'signalling' his intentions to make a turn...no, he didn't have his signals on...no, he wasn't slowing down...no, I'm not a mind reader...").
Well, in theory it might be hard to defend IF it ever happens, but the point is, in reality, it probably won't ever happen, because drivers almost never adjust right in a wide lane as they near an intersection for no reason when their intended destination is to go straight (as opposed to cyclists, who do it all the time).

Another way to look at is to think about what a right turn only lane is. A right turn only lane demarcates the space on the road that is used for turning right. Of course, there isn't enough space at all intersections to have a dedicated/demarcated right turn only lane. But, except for in the narrowest of lanes, the space dedicated for right turns is still there. It's just that for standard width vehicles, it happens to overlap with the space used by through traffic, so there can be no demarcation. But the concept still applies: if you're turning right, use the "right only space"; if you're going straight, use the "through space".

Now, if you choose to use the "right only space" to go straight, go ahead, but be prepared, and don't blame anyone for not realizing that you're not turning right.

In this case the cyclist was using the "right only space" to go straight and he expected the bus driver to know this. I'm sorry, but that's asking for it.