Advocacy & Safety - babies in bicycle trailers

What do you think about babies in bicycle trailers?

Does is seem strange that even though motor vehicle crashes are the leading cause of accidental deaths for children in the U.S. that most people freak out if you talk about pulling a kid in a trailer?

I hear that in Canada they are thinking about making it a law that you cannot carry a child until they are 1.5 years old.

I think that an infant in an auto car seat that is strapped into a burley type kid trailer is at least as safe as in a car. I am taking into account that I would be taking mostly slower streets while a motorist is likely to be going 50,60,70 or even 80 mph.

I think a lot of this attitude is just ignorance. Even though we all have friends who are buried now due to cars some people continue to think they are the only "safe" way to travel.

I think that an infant in an auto car seat that is strapped into a burley type kid trailer is at least as safe as in a car. I am taking into account that I would be taking mostly slower streets while a motorist is likely to be going 50,60,70 or even 80 mph.I think if you're talking about that Burley trailer spilling over, your statement might be correct. If you're talking about an automobile plowing into it at 45 MPH, your statement is nonsense.

I think that an infant in an auto car seat that is strapped into a burley type kid trailer is at least as safe as in a car.
They are.


I think a lot of this attitude is just ignorance.
It is.

Car drivers crash into each other much more often than they crash into cyclists. They even crash into pedestrians more often, so a kid being pushed in a stroller on the sidewalk is even more at risk than in a bike trailer.

NEVER strap a child seat designed for an automobile or aircraft into a Burley or any other bike trailer. Those trailer are desgined for a child to sit up in, not to lay a baby carrier in.


Now to find my Nomax undies.....

They even crash into pedestrians more often, so a kid being pushed in a stroller on the sidewalk is even more at risk than in a bike trailer.And where do these auto/pedestrian crashes happen mostly? On the sidewalk, or in the roadway?

And where do these auto/pedestrian crashes happen mostly? On the sidewalk, or in the roadway?
Irrelevant nit-picking, the fact is that more pedestrians than cyclists get hit by cars. Therefore it's safer to ride than walk.
The only way to change this is to modify people's behavior.

DieselDan has a good point about child seats in trailers.

Personally if I figured out a way of firmly attaching an infant car seat to a two wheel trailer I would do it, but that’s just me and I’m a bit nuts. I also seem to recall seeing an infant car seat between the pilot and stoker on a tandem (or was it a triple) that looked like a nice setup allowing stoker to also calm the baby while riding.

I did find a couple of links that you might be interested in

http://www.biketraffic.org/content.php?id=27_0_6_0
http://www.ibike.org/education/infant.htm

Irrelevant nit-pickingYour post was a textbook example of lying with statistics; asking a pointed question about that misuse of statistics-- which you dodged, btw-- is not "irrelevant nitpicking."


the fact is that more pedestrians than cyclists get hit by cars.That doesn't make a pedestrian on the sidewalk less safe than a child on the roadway, though, does it?


Therefore it's safer to ride than walk.Safer to ride on a trail than to walk in the roadway? Yes. Safer to ride in the roadway than to walk on a trail? No. Your conclusion is illogical because your premise is founded on a misuse of statistics.

Your post was a textbook example of lying with statistics; asking a pointed question about that misuse of statistics-- which you dodged, btw-- is not "irrelevant nitpicking."

That doesn't make a pedestrian on the sidewalk less safe than a child on the roadway, though, does it?

Safer to ride on a trail than to walk in the roadway? Yes. Safer to ride in the roadway than to walk on a trail? No. Your conclusion is illogical because your premise is founded on a misuse of statistics.
:rolleyes:
Who gets hit more often by cars, cyclists or pedestrians?
Thank you, I rest my case.
Cut and dried, simple as that.
It doesn't take a lot of BS "what-ifs" or hypothetical scenarios.

:rolleyes:
Who gets hit more often by cars, cyclists or pedestrians?It's an irrelevant question when it's taken out of context.



Thank you, I rest my case.
Cut and dried, simple as that.The only thing cut and dried about it is that it's cut and dried that you're misusing statistics. Which results in the greatest number of fatalities: Pedestrians hit by cars, or cyclists chained to the bottom of the ocean? Pedestrians, obviously. Therefore, being chained to your bicycle on the bottom of the ocean is far safer than walking on the sidewalk-- Cut and dried, simple as that?


It doesn't take a lot of BS "what-ifs" or hypothetical scenarios.It's not a "what if" scenario; it's asking you to put your "statistics" in context.

:rolleyes:
Who gets hit more often by cars, cyclists or pedestrians?


On a percentage basis or numerically?

Leaving out the actual data makes your statement irrelevant.

There is no evidence that riding with a trailer is any more dangerous than riding without. In fact, there is strong anecdotal evidence that it is quite a bit safer, drivers are more respectful. That certainly is my experience.

Here's a rule: Don't ride with a trailer any place you don't feel safe riding without one. As a parent, you have a responsibility to your child to keep both your child and yourself safe.

There is no evidence that riding with a trailer is any more dangerous than riding without. In fact, there is strong anecdotal evidence that it is quite a bit safer, drivers are more respectful. That certainly is my experience.

Here's a rule: Don't ride with a trailer any place you don't feel safe riding without one. As a parent, you have a responsibility to your child to keep both your child and yourself safe.
+1! I was just gonna say something like that!

And sorry CommuterRun, I'm with BlueOrder on your statements of statistics!
If Ray Charles is blind, and Love is blind and God is love, then Ray Charles must be GOD!:p

and wherever you ride, make sure you know what the car coming up behind you is doing!:D

........And sorry CommuterRun, I'm with BlueOrder on your statements of statistics!
Go right ahead, I'm looking at the bottom line, he's trying to spin it to make it fit what he already believes.:)

I've been taking my son (age 3) for road and greenway rides in a Burley since he turned 1. We mostly do neighborhood streets and two-lane collector roads (25-35 mph, width/traffic ratios that allow easy overtaking by motorists) with some short sections of busy arterial to connect the links.

I did a lot of personal research on the safety of trailers. Trailers are far less likely to cause injuries from falls and other accidents common with child bike seats, and according to a report of a study from Europe (I forgot where) children in trailers fare better in most car-bike crashes than children in bike seats because the trailer gets pushed away while a bike seat sends the child tumbling, often landing head-first.

I have spent many more hours cycling with my son than pushing him in a stroller, and I have never had a close call with him in the trailer behind the bike, but I had a couple of close-calls with him in the stroller at crosswalks and driveways (drivers failing to yield, requiring me to move myself and the stroller out of the path of the vehicle in an emergency movement). I believe that trailer-cycling is safer per mile than stroller-walking.

I did not choose to install an infant carrier in the trailer in order to trailer my son before he could sit up by himself. The main reason is bumps; cycling at speed is much bumpier than motoring or strolling, at least the way I travel by each mode. I did not want to put excessive stress on his body when he was that small. Even when he could sit up by himself, the motion of the trailer often knocked him over and caused him some distress. But I think traveling at slower speeds with an infant carrier in a trailer would be fine.

I don't see the government mandating crash standards and helmet use for baby strollers any time soon, and I believe babies in strollers are at greater collision risk than babies in bike trailers operated according to vehicular rules. Therefore, I think it's silly to attempt to ban bicycle transportation of infants, although some requirements on equipment might be reasonably easy to accommodate. I think the main motivation, subconscious as it may be, for bans on child trailer traffic is to free motorists of the worry that their own acts of impatience or irresponsibility could endanger a child in the roadway, as if endangering an adult using a similar-sized human-powered vehicle would be okay.

Do not put a child less than 18 months in a trailer. Their skull is still somewhat soft, and can be deformed where it meets the spine by the bulk of a helmet pushing forward on their head. That's what I heard from a local doctor.

...The main reason is bumps; cycling at speed is much bumpier than motoring or strolling, at least the way I travel by each mode. I did not want to put excessive stress on his body when he was that small. Even when he could sit up by himself, the motion of the trailer often knocked him over and caused him some distress. But I think traveling at slower speeds with an infant carrier in a trailer would be fine. ...

Even at slower speeds this is the case, and is why I waited until my daughter could sit up (on her own) wearing a helmet. Of course she refuses to wear the helmet in the trailer now, but will wear it on her bike. I must admit to being a bad parent and letting her ride in the trailer without a helmet :(

Irrelevant nit-picking, the fact is that more pedestrians than cyclists get hit by cars. Therefore it's safer to ride than walk.More people are killed being run over by cars while riding their bikes on the streets in NYC than are run over by trains while they ride their bikes on the subway tracks. Does this mean that subteranian is the safer way to ride?

Of course not. There are more pedestrians than cyclists by a magnitude of probably hundreds of thousands.

Granted it is an absurd example, but...

I had a couple of close-calls with him in the stroller at crosswalks and driveways (drivers failing to yield, requiring me to move myself and the stroller out of the path of the vehicle in an emergency movement).

I don't have any children and so don't have experience, but I've thought about when I've seen others pulling their kids in trailers. I think I would be inclined to stick a tall flag or two on the rear corners of the trailer to bring the presence of the trailer up to SUV driver eye-level. (I realise you were talking about stroller close calls)
I'd be nervous that someone would just see a cyclist and not the trailer.

I think I fall in to the "it scares the crap out of me" group.

I kind feel like we should let them have a little more low risk time before we make them play in the street

Go right ahead, I'm looking at the bottom line, he's trying to spin it to make it fit what he already believes.:)

I think that what you're missing are the numbers of people involved in each activity. There are many times more pedestrians out there than there are cyclists, so comparing "number of X hit by a car" doesn't really tell the story. I would guess that, percentage-wise, a cyclist is more likely to be hit by a car than a pedestrian is.

Even at slower speeds this is the case, and is why I waited until my daughter could sit up (on her own) wearing a helmet. Of course she refuses to wear the helmet in the trailer now, but will wear it on her bike. I must admit to being a bad parent and letting her ride in the trailer without a helmet :(

I imagined that at pedestrian-like speeds on good pavement, with the child in a reclined position in an infant carrier, the bumps in the trailer would be similar to that of a baby stroller or jogger stroller on an average sidewalk. Given that some parents like to ride at very slow speeds with one or more of their kids on training wheels, I can see the utility of trailering an infant at such speeds on a greenway or neighborhood street. Personally, I'd rather walk or jog at such speeds, which is why I never did it.

I consider myself fortunate that my son is willing to wear the helmet in his trailer (presumably required by law where I live) but I think it's partly because I bribe him with ice cream shops and toy stores as bicycling destinations.

-Steve Goodridge

I don't have any children and so don't have experience, but I've thought about when I've seen others pulling their kids in trailers. I think I would be inclined to stick a tall flag or two on the rear corners of the trailer to bring the presence of the trailer up to SUV driver eye-level. (I realise you were talking about stroller close calls)
I'd be nervous that someone would just see a cyclist and not the trailer.My trailer has a tall flag. (And lights, and reflectors, and...) You really can't miss it though.

That said, I am the most defensive rider you have ever seen when I am pulling my kid(s). The biggest cautionary spot is parralel cars making right turns. Often, I'll let them make the turn in front of me because I'm not confident they have seen the trailer.

And Mrs. Hambone usually rides behind the trailer. You dont' want to get her mad at you!

I don't have any children and so don't have experience, but I've thought about when I've seen others pulling their kids in trailers. I think I would be inclined to stick a tall flag or two on the rear corners of the trailer to bring the presence of the trailer up to SUV driver eye-level. (I realise you were talking about stroller close calls)
I'd be nervous that someone would just see a cyclist and not the trailer.

The Burley comes with a tall safety flag for the left rear corner of the trailer; we use it. Drivers give the trailer way more room than they do me cycling without it.

I did have a cyclist rear-end the trailer once when a group of cyclists in front of me were slowing down. He was following too closely and not paying attention, but had previously been talking to my son in the trailer. Nobody fell or was hurt.

I think that what you're missing are the numbers of people involved in each activity. There are many times more pedestrians out there than there are cyclists, so comparing "number of X hit by a car" doesn't really tell the story. I would guess that, percentage-wise, a cyclist is more likely to be hit by a car than a pedestrian is.

The figures I've read in the past suggested that per mile of travel, cycling is significantly safer, but per hour of exposure, they are more similar, because walking takes so much more time.

Go right ahead, I'm looking at the bottom line, he's trying to spin it to make it fit what he already believes.:)Pot. Kettle. Black.

When you have to resort to bending the statistics so they support your position, you've already said everything we need to know about your position.

The figures I've read in the past suggested that per mile of travel, cycling is significantly safer, but per hour of exposure, they are more similar, because walking takes so much more time.

FWIW A couple of links that make that point:
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4153

Now, this:

I think that what you're missing are the numbers of people involved in each activity. There are many times more pedestrians out there than there are cyclists, so comparing "number of X hit by a car" doesn't really tell the story. I would guess that, percentage-wise, a cyclist is more likely to be hit by a car than a pedestrian is.
and this:

The figures I've read in the past suggested that per mile of travel, cycling is significantly safer, but per hour of exposure, they are more similar, because walking takes so much more time.
make sense.
And The Human Car posted some good links.

From first-hand experience, nearly all drivers do give a cyclist with a trailer of some kind more room than a cyclist without a trailer........whether it be kid trailer, utility trailer or a 14 1/2' canoe.

FWIW A couple of links that make that point:
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4153

I agree with what most of Ken Kifer says on that page, and the rest of his site for that matter. Ken Kifer was killed by a motorist though. I suppose if you spend as many miles and hours on a bike as Mr. Kifer did you are more at risk, just due to exposure. Very few people are hit by cars in their living rooms, but they aren't getting anywhere either.

Do not put a child less than 18 months in a trailer. Their skull is still somewhat soft, and can be deformed where it meets the spine by the bulk of a helmet pushing forward on their head. That's what I heard from a local doctor.Just gonna repeat this in case it got lost amidst the rhetoric. Check with your pediatrician before putting your baby in a bike trailer.

Irrelevant nit-picking, the fact is that more pedestrians than cyclists get hit by cars. Therefore it's safer to ride than walk.
The only way to change this is to modify people's behavior.


Statistics nitpick using an extreme test case:

1 million ppl walk and 30 of them get hit.
5 people ride, and 3 of them get hit.

Is it safer to walk or ride?



Now my _opinion_: People should be free to do what the *** they want. If people should mind their own business. Darwin pretty much summed up the whole of existence. Live and let die. And please pull your twisted knickers outta your bootay and let ME live a little too. If I'm too stupid to keep my progeny alive, just be relieved and move on. All this social nannying is just.... sucking the life out of humanity.

Tonight on PBS they showed footage of the first civil rights march on DC (MLK 1963 I think). No craft service (food). No bottled water. No toilets or facilities. 250,000 plus showed up, and if they didn't carry it in on their backs, they didn't have it. And in '63, DC was a loooong HOT dusty bus ride from Alabama and Georgia. How many pu^h^h sissified Americans would go today under those conditions? What, I have to pack my OWN food and water???? They'd be lucky to get 200.

I agree with what most of Ken Kifer says on that page, and the rest of his site for that matter. Ken Kifer was killed by a motorist though. I suppose if you spend as many miles and hours on a bike as Mr. Kifer did you are more at risk, just due to exposure. Very few people are hit by cars in their living rooms, but they aren't getting anywhere either.

Ken was killed by a speeding drunk driver traveling in the opposite direction regardless of your choice of transportation few would stand a chance in that situation. I believe ~40% of our traffic fatalities are due to DUI that’s ~17,000 deaths in 2004.

http://www.kenkifer.com/death.htm

I witnessed a responsible father crash a red light with his two darlings in tow, forcing 2 cars with a green light to brake hard. At least that gene pool would have dried up immediately if there was a collision.

With the flag and the blinky and Mrs. Caloso riding behind and slightly to the outside, I have noticed drivers have been extremely deferential to our little caravan. I tend to think that the greater risk to the Wonder Twins in their Chariot (highly recommended btw) is debris kicked up from the rear tire when their knucklehead father forgets to put down the cover.

So, here's my take: make sure your kids are old and strong enough (ask their ped.), make them wear their helmets, put down the cover, put on the flag and blinky, stay off the sidewalks and the interstates but ride on the street. You'll get there safely.

Ask a real mom if it's ok to ride a bike around with her baby in the back of your trailer. There's your answer.

How about a little common sense around here?

Ask a real mom if it's ok to ride a bike around with her baby in the back of your trailer. There's your answer.

How about a little common sense around here?

I asked. She said yes. (I'm not sure what exactly a "real mom" is, but I'm sure Mrs. Caloso qualifies.)

Ask a real mom if it's ok to ride a bike around with her baby in the back of your trailer. There's your answer.

How about a little common sense around here?So, it is your position that:

fathers have lower regard for the well being of their children?
if my wife is ok with me trailering my kids, she isn't a real mother?
if we dont' share your world view we have no common sense?
am I understanding you correctly?

Ask a real mom if it's ok to ride a bike around with her baby in the back of your trailer. There's your answer.

How about a little common sense around here?

Mine started when she was a month old (born in Feb, riding by the end of March). She went over Rabbit Ears Pass in Colorado when she was 6 month's old and nursing. I didn't hear my wife complain too much about going along for the ride.

The second one took a little longer. Both started riding on the back of a tandem before they were 4. One is currently a junior in college and the other is in high school. Both survived just fine, thank you very much.

There seems to be no real facts or research one way or the other, just the generic rule of thumb of "one year old". So I guess each parent ought to make up his own mind.

Hey, if I told you that it was OK to ride the local 60 mph 2-lane during rush hour with your tot, would you do it?

There's also the thought that if a particular stretch of road is too dangerous to tow your kid on, do you have any business riding it yourself and potentially depriving the youngster of a parent?


The 1.5-year law for Canada sounds interesting... I wonder if they have any reason for the 1.5-year age, other then "it just seemed like a safe figure".

I personally think that a newborn in a car seat strapped securely inside a bike trailer is just as safe as a two-year-old sitting in that trailer, if not more so. This is based on "how it looks to me", with my understanding of physics. Which is probably no better or worse than anyone else making declarations of the proper age to begin trailer use.

I took my 3-year-old to school in his trailer this morning. I get a lot more cycling time in by overlapping it with daddy time. As for traffic, I don't find myself avoiding certain busy roads due to safety concerns; rather, I tend to choose more pleasant routes when I ride with him for enjoyment, and the pleasant routes are less, shall we say, "controversial" when it comes to perception of safety.

Ask a real mom if it's ok to ride a bike around with her baby in the back of your trailer. There's your answer.

How about a little common sense around here?I asked. She said yes. (I'm not sure what exactly a "real mom" is, but I'm sure Mrs. Caloso qualifies.)
Mrs. CommuterRun doesn't have a problem with it, either. I don't take the trailer on roads I won't ride, myself.


Hey, if I told you that it was OK to ride the local 60 mph 2-lane during rush hour with your tot, would you do it?
Add in some descriptive words like: NOL, rural highway, and I have ridden it, and will again, but the one's I have in mind around here are only a 55 mph speed limit.:beer:

Ask a real mom if it's ok to ride a bike around with her baby in the back of your trailer. There's your answer.

How about a little common sense around here?

Mrs. Commuter would take umbrage at your implication that she is not a "real" mom.

Just gonna repeat this in case it got lost amidst the rhetoric. Check with your pediatrician before putting your baby in a bike trailer.One more time for good measure: infants' skulls are still soft and can be deformed by the bulk of a helmet, check with your pediatrician for babies under ~18 months.

I would wait until the kid is 18 months, or had a strong enough neck to keep their head upright. My Burley seemed to force the kids head down, because of where the helmet hit the back seat. I’ve trailered kids at least 100 miles over trails and smaller roads.

All trailers are not created equally. I’d be concerned about going faster than 20 mph with your average Burley trailer. I bought one cheapie and had to return it when tires inflated to 25 lbs would not stay on the rims!
-----------------------------------Risk---------------
http://www.kenkifer.com/bikepages/health/risks.htm

Fatalities per Million Exposure Hours
Skydiving 128.71
General Flying 15.58
Motorcycling 8.80
Scuba Diving 1.98
Living 1.53
Snowmobiling .88
Motoring .47
Water skiing .28
Bicycling .26
Airline Flying .15
Swimming 1.07
Hunting .08

From-Failure Analysis Associates, Inc.


http://www.afn.org/~savanna/risk.htm
Annual Risk

You will have an auto accident = 1 in 12

You will die in an auto accident = 1 in 5,000

You will die = 1 in 115

You will have a fatal accident as a skydiver = 1 in 1,000

You will die while riding your bike = 1 in 130,000

You will die in an airplane crash = 1 in 250,000

Source: Laudan, Larry. (1994). The Book of Risks.