Bicycle Mechanics - Stupid @#($*&@#$ wheel!!!

Okay, so this morning my Mavic MA3 rear rim cracked at a spoke eyelet. This wheel has been nothing but trouble, 8 or so broken spokes, had to retension it a couple of months ago (which I thought had solved the problems for good), now it's done for...

So, I need to figure out a cheap but tough replacement wheelset. I'm going to replace the front wheel as well because I've heard such bad reports about the MA3s from others as well. I'm trying to keep the total price low. I'm also trying to avoid Mavic in general!!!

* 36H Alex Adventurer rims ($46/pair) with Shimano Deore M475 disc hubs ($42/pair) + about $40 for spokes - I could upgrade to LX non-disc hubs for about $20 more... any thoughts on that??
* 36H Alex DM18 rims ($40/pair) with Shimano Deore M475 disc hubs ($42/pair) - The DM18 rims are heavier but cheaper than the Adventurers... how do they compare?
* Pre-built 36H Sun CR18 rims with Shimano Alivio 8/9 speed hubs (only $80 total) - Claimed to be hand built by the seller: http://shop.greatdealsonbikes.com/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=GDOB&Product_Code=HY01&Category_Code=HY
* Pre-built Sun CR18 rims with 32H Deore non-disc hubs and DT spokes ($120/pair)
* Pre-built Sun WTB XC rims with 32H Deore non-disc hubs and DT spokes ($120/pair)

Any thoughts on what I should choose, or where I should choose to spend more money? Any reason *not* to use disc hubs? I know they add a bit of dish to the front wheel, but that doesn't seem to be a huge issue.

The $80 Sun CR18 with Alivio hubs seems to be an awfully good deal, but I dunno about those cheap hubs. Then again, I've never had any problems with cheap hubs.

Hmm...

Ah, yes. You've worried about this coming for awhile now, eh?
I take it this is for your "touring" (relatively-speaking) bike.

If your bike has 135mm-spaced dropouts (I assume you do, since all the hubs you mentioned are MTB hubs), I'd just go for the CR18/Alivio wheelset. You know enough to tension them up perfectly, and the Alivio hubs will be fine if you take care of them.

Does your frame have disc attachments? I don't see much purpose in disc brakes except on mountain bikes used in muddy conditions.

Sun seems to be where Mavic would like to be from my reading of various lists. Generally, you shouldn't go wrong with the CR18s, and if you can go with the Deore over Alivio, then do so.

I have had a less than satisfactory experience with Alex rims.

Ah, yes. You've worried about this coming for awhile now, eh?
I take it this is for your "touring" (relatively-speaking) bike.

If your bike has 135mm-spaced dropouts (I assume you do, since all the hubs you mentioned are MTB hubs), I'd just go for the CR18/Alivio wheelset. You know enough to tension them up perfectly, and the Alivio hubs will be fine if you take care of them.

Does your frame have disc attachments? I don't see much purpose in disc brakes except on mountain bikes used in muddy conditions.
Indeed, I guess I've had this coming! I gotta say, this wheelset was absolutely the worst $100 I've ever spent in terms of the grief it's given me :rolleyes: It's amazing how many reports I've read of cracked MA3s.

I'm planning to spread the dropouts to 135 mm, it's lugged steel so no big issues there. I don't have disc attachments, but I figure since the hubs are only about $5 extra, it might be worth it for future-compatibility. Then again, that may just be silly.

I could upgrade to LX non-disc hubs for about $20 more... any thoughts on that??
.

If it comes down to this choice, I'd spend the extra $20. The extra bulk that's on disc-compatible hubs adds a fair amount of weight. For $20 that's a good bit of weight savings for the money (not to mention the upgrade from Deore to LX, which I have no idea if there's any meaningful difference in quality there). I'm certainly no weight weenie, and it doesn't sound like you are either, but hauling around a disc hub without disc brakes is just hauling dead, useless weight-

Sun seems to be where Mavic would like to be from my reading of various lists. Generally, you shouldn't go wrong with the CR18s, and if you can go with the Deore over Alivio, then do so.

I have had a less than satisfactory experience with Alex rims.
Thanks, Rowan. I've gotten the same good vibe about the CR18s. What were your issues with the Alex rims? Quality control in terms of roundness and trueness, or cracking, or what?

Could you go with CR18's and road-spaced rear hub?
Or, take a couple washers out of the non-drive-side axle of the MTB hub and redish the wheel slightly, with hub spacing at 132mm or so.

I don't think disc is worth it because I don't see them as being worth it on a road bike, in principle.

but hauling around a disc hub without disc brakes is just hauling dead, useless weight-
+1
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, you would need to add some way to attach the disc brake calipers, probably welded (brazed) and that would require some paint touch-up.

Could you go with CR18's and road-spaced rear hub?
Or, take a couple washers out of the non-drive-side axle of the MTB hub and redish the wheel slightly, with hub spacing at 132mm or so.
Absolutely, I could easily respace the rear hub. Basically the hub spacing is a non-issue for me... I can spread the frame or redish the wheel as needed.


I don't think disc is worth it because I don't see them as being worth it on a road bike, in principle.
Yeah, you and everyone else seem to be in agreement on this. And there's nothing wrong with my current canti brakes, so I suppose I oughta just forget about disc hubs!

+1
Plus, if I'm not mistaken, you would need to add some way to attach the disc brake calipers, probably welded (brazed) and that would require some paint touch-up.
Plus disc brakes change up the force requirements on forks, a lot. Typical fork blades bear very little bending force because that's all handled by the brakes where they attach higher up. Forks for disc brakes need to be designed differently, so you can't just braze attachments onto any steel fork.

Lemme throw another rim into the mix: Sun Rhyno Lite. They're slightly more expensive than Sun CR18s, and lighter. How do they compare in toughness?

Rhyno Lite's are very tough but they weigh more than CR-18's. 565g vs. 484g in 700c size. They're 5mm wider too so that might limit your tire choices.

Lemme throw another rim into the mix: Sun Rhyno Lite. They're slightly more expensive than Sun CR18s, and lighter. How do they compare in toughness?
This all depends on what you're going to use the wheelset for. Loaded touring through Nepal? Two-day, one-night rides in the D.C. area? What sort of terrain, load, etc?

36-hole CR-18 should be plenty durable, and I was also under the impression that the Rhyno Lite was heavier than the CR-18.

Unless you're building a performance-touring wheelset, I'd just go with the CR-18 + Alivio, and I think they'll be plenty durable and you can't beat the price.

Rhyno Lite's are very tough but they weigh more than CR-18's. 565g vs. 484g in 700c size. They're 5mm wider too so that might limit your tire choices.
Ah thanks, I couldn't find any info on the RL width. Since I'm gonna run 28-35 mm tires, the CR18s are a better choice.

Unless you're building a performance-touring wheelset, I'd just go with the CR-18 + Alivio, and I think they'll be plenty durable and you can't beat the price.

I agree. As Retro Grouch said, the Rhyno-Lites are heavier and wider. In 700c, I imagine they're used mostly on 29" mountain bikes, as the 26" Rhynos are good, tough rims for mountain biking.......And you probably already know this, but despite what the seller says about the wheels being "handbuilt", I wouldn't be surprised if the wheels need truing right out of the box, maybe even a complete re-tensioning. But heck, at that price, it's still a deal-

I agree. As Retro Grouch said, the Rhyno-Lites are heavier and wider. In 700c, I imagine they're used mostly on 29" mountain bikes, as the 26" Rhynos are good, tough rims for mountain biking.......And you probably already know this, but despite what the seller says about the wheels being "handbuilt", I wouldn't be surprised if the wheels need truing right out of the box, maybe even a complete re-tensioning. But heck, at that price, it's still a deal-
Yeah, I emailed them to ask if they can do Deore LX hubs instead. If they're really built-to-order, that should be no problem since they've got Deore LX wheelsets in the MTB section :) And if not, well I guess I'll have to retension them. I certainly don't want to repeat the fiasco of this MA3 wheelset :(

Plus disc brakes change up the force requirements on forks, a lot. Typical fork blades bear very little bending force because that's all handled by the brakes where they attach higher up. Forks for disc brakes need to be designed differently, so you can't just braze attachments onto any steel fork.Actually forks do experience a lot of bending. The moment is defined by drawing a line between the caliper mounting-point and the tyre's contact-patch. The torque twisting the fork backwards is then the braking-force at the surface pushing back multiplied by the distance to the calipers.

Disc brakes with the braking-surface closer to the axle results in a shorter moment. However, in order to generate the same braking-force and torque, they have to apply a much larger clamping force at the disc.

Thanks, Rowan. I've gotten the same good vibe about the CR18s. What were your issues with the Alex rims? Quality control in terms of roundness and trueness, or cracking, or what?
Out of true and round. It was extraordinary, but I kept breaking spokes. Even after replacing them all with good ones. And even after "retiring" it by putting it on my FG with no dish -- a broken spoke within 100km. No other wheel I have built has caused as much grief. They were standard fit on the Fuji, and I have subsequently read of several other owners of later Touring models suffering similar spoke breakages.

Out of true and round. It was extraordinary, but I kept breaking spokes. Even after replacing them all with good ones. And even after "retiring" it by putting it on my FG with no dish -- a broken spoke within 100km. No other wheel I have built has caused as much grief. They were standard fit on the Fuji, and I have subsequently read of several other owners of later Touring models suffering similar spoke breakages.
Sounds a lot like this dearly departed MA3 rim... yech!!

I've actually had zero problems with Alex rims (except one that taco'd after I went straight into a stop sign), but the CR18s with Alivio hubs sound like a good deal, even if you need to do a little work on them.
Also, if you end up getting 135mm spaced hubs, you probably don't need to actually cold set the frame or anything like that...it's pretty easy to flex the dropouts apart by 5mm.
It seems like it's a choice between an $80 wheelset you might have to work on versus a $120 wheelset that you built yourself and the strength of which you are confident in.

I've actually had zero problems with Alex rims (except one that taco'd after I went straight into a stop sign), but the CR18s with Alivio hubs sound like a good deal, even if you need to do a little work on them.
Gotcha! Yep, I'm leaning heavily towards the CR18+Alivios because they're so cheap... unless craigslist comes through for me and somebody responds to my wanted ad with a pair.


Also, if you end up getting 135mm spaced hubs, you probably don't need to actually cold set the frame or anything like that...it's pretty easy to flex the dropouts apart by 5mm.
It seems like it's a choice between an $80 wheelset you might have to work on versus a $120 wheelset that you built yourself and the strength of which you are confident in.
Yeah, the thing is my frame is currently at 126 mm and I'm running 130 mm hubs, so I think I'll have to spread it for 135. I'll probably try to spread to 132 so that I can run either 130s or 135s easily.


sR+++!% bRHF rERTC ld+km so++ aC vP20/C15 c++/ m++/% bb+ rSH rRI rPR rFG rDE rTR rGL rWW rIHC i!
Dude you rock! Stay tuned for the automatic Bike Code encoder/decoder :D

Yeah, the thing is my frame is currently at 126 mm and I'm running 130 mm hubs, so I think I'll have to spread it for 135. I'll probably try to spread to 132 so that I can run either 130s or 135s easily.


Dude you rock! Stay tuned for the automatic Bike Code encoder/decoder :D
You should have the dropouts aligned when you do the spreading, otherwise you'll break axles.

I just got my encoder/decoder in a box of Lucky Charms!:D
Wanna borrow it?

You should have the dropouts aligned when you do the spreading, otherwise you'll break axles.
Yeah, I've heard that can be an issue... though 126 mm to 135 mm is only about 1 degree change in dropout angle. Hmm.

Why don't "you" just replace the rims on your current set of wheels? Buy the CR18 rims, align them correctly with the MA3's and tape them together, switch the spokes over (Use new nipples), and true/dish/tension (Or have a shop do it). Inexpensive, good result, and no spreading/aligning the drop-outs.

Why don't "you" just replace the rims on your current set of wheels? Buy the CR18 rims, align them correctly with the MA3's and tape them together, switch the spokes over (Use new nipples), and true/dish/tension (Or have a shop do it). Inexpensive, good result, and no spreading/aligning the drop-outs.
Yep, I've considered just rebuilding the rear wheel with a spare 32H rim I've got sitting around, and continue to push my luck with the front rim. Free is good :) However, the hubs are 105 which are good but not so well-sealed, to the point that I've had to repack the rear twice in just about 1.5 years... so I'm hoping that by going to MTB hubs I'd get better water/dirt resistance.

Yeah, I've heard that can be an issue... though 126 mm to 135 mm is only about 1 degree change in dropout angle. Hmm.

Judging from the fact that if you look closely after coldsetting a frame from 126 to 130 you can see the slight misalignment of the dropouts, going from 126 to 135 would be enough to make me take the frame to a shop and have the dropouts aligned after coldsetting. 126 to 130 seems to be a non-issue from my experience............Funny thing about cheap, stamped dropouts in regard to coldsetting, because they're not as rigid as a forged dropout they will actually "self-align" somewhat when you secure the quick release. That's another thing I like about my old Schwinn. That and the cool "replaceable derailleur hanger"- :D

moxfyre, for opinions of this wheelbuilder (CR18/Alivio), you might check the ss/fg section. Bicyclewheels.com's track wheelset is a popular budget choice there.

Used 105 hubs are better than what you're considering (And most Shimano hubs - road and MTB - are basically the same, i.e. the MTB hubs are no better sealed than the 105's). Repacking a rear hub twice in 1.5 years is not excessive but you might upgrade the grease being used). I still recommend lacing up new rims to what you've got.

Used 105 hubs are better than what you're considering (And most Shimano hubs - road and MTB - are basically the same, i.e. the MTB hubs are no better sealed than the 105's). Repacking a rear hub twice in 1.5 years is not excessive but you might upgrade the grease being used). I still recommend lacing up new rims to what you've got.
All righty... I think I'm gonna take your suggestion. Telling me to spend less on bikes is almost always good advice :)

I have this NOS Mavic MA2 rim, still in the wrapper. I've heard this rim is of a good quality, so I think it'll do for now, and I have an old Matrix rim that I can use in a pinch if the front craps out on me. I'll spring for the Sun CR18s if things don't improve with a new rear rim.

The grease is a good point too. I packed 'em with white lithium, but I recently got my hands on some waterproof marine grease. I'll use that next time the hubs need an overhaul, and see if that doesn't improve things.

Used 105 hubs are better than what you're considering (And most Shimano hubs - road and MTB - are basically the same, i.e. the MTB hubs are no better sealed than the 105's). Repacking a rear hub twice in 1.5 years is not excessive but you might upgrade the grease being used). I still recommend lacing up new rims to what you've got.

All righty... I think I'm gonna take your suggestion. Telling me to spend less on bikes is almost always good advice :)
I have this NOS Mavic MA2 rim, still in the wrapper. I've heard this rim is of a good quality, so I think it'll do for now, and I have an old Matrix rim that I can use in a pinch if the front craps out on me. I'll spring for the Sun CR18s if things don't improve with a new rear rim.
The grease is a good point too. I packed 'em with white lithium, but I recently got my hands on some waterproof marine grease. I'll use that next time the hubs need an overhaul, and see if that doesn't improve things.
Yeah, I think you should stick with your current hubs so long as the races and cones are in good shape. Sure, a 135mm-spaced 36-spoke rear hub will make for a stronger rear wheel, but do you need it? If you're doing loaded touring, yes. BUt otherwise, no. Plus you don't need to worry so much about your frame if you stick with a road rear hub.

The MA2 is a very good rim, double-eyeletted and with a strong history of dependability. (The MA40 was a hard-anodized version of the same rim, also pretty good but had some cracking problems as hard anodization makes rims more susceptible to cracking - I had one crack at the eyelet on a rear wheel built with too-high tension.) Use it for the rear wheel, and build it up carefully. Or, just spring for CR18's if you want to run wider tires - MA2 is narrow, good for tires up to 28c I'd say.

Pro mechanics used to pack bikes with white lithium, but that's because they would repack the bearings regularly - the stuff is low-friction, but is thin and doesn't last very long. I'd guess that's partially to blame for your hubs needing to be repacked.

The MA2 is a very good rim, double-eyeletted and with a strong history of dependability.
MUST BE!,
Just saw ONE go for like $55 on eBay!:eek:

I still have a wheel built with an MA2 rim from way back in the '80s... :) Probably has over 20,000 miles on it by now...

MUST BE!,
Just saw ONE go for like $55 on eBay!:eek:

I still have a wheel built with an MA2 rim from way back in the '80s... :) Probably has over 20,000 miles on it by now...
Yeah, good rim. It's unbelievable how good it was since it wasn't welded/machined construction.

Technically, the MA3 is not the descendent of the MA2; the MA3 was a lower-level "cheap" rim and while it cost the same as the MA2, the MA2 existed back when rims were typical cheaper, even the good ones.

Actually forks do experience a lot of bending. The moment is defined by drawing a line between the caliper mounting-point and the tyre's contact-patch. The torque twisting the fork backwards is then the braking-force at the surface pushing back multiplied by the distance to the calipers.
Disc brakes with the contact-patch closer to the axle results in a shorter moment. However, in order to generate the same braking-force and torque, they have to apply a much larger clamping force at the disc.
You're right. I'm trying to remember where I heard the bit that I repeated... it was from a reuptable source, and then when I thought through the mechanics I was thinking with my bike on my bike-stand, so there's no contact patch.

MUST BE!,
Just saw ONE go for like $55 on eBay!:eek:
I traded 2 cheapo tires and one cheapo BB (about $20 worth total) for a pair of these NOS MA2s :) The other is now on my fixie.

I've got the MA2 on my touring bike now and it's working fine. It's quite different from the MA3: boxier cross section, slightly more noticeable seam, DOUBLE eyelets, and non-machined brake surface. Also, the brakes work about 10X better with the MA2 rim, it's kind of ridiculous actually. I started to press the rear brake and was skidding all over the place. Apparently that machined brake surface on the MA3 didn't do much good :rolleyes:

I traded 2 cheapo tires and one cheapo BB (about $20 worth total) for a pair of these NOS MA2s :) The other is now on my fixie.
I've got the MA2 on my touring bike now and it's working fine. It's quite different from the MA3: boxier cross section, slightly more noticeable seam, DOUBLE eyelets, and non-machined brake surface. Also, the brakes work about 10X better with the MA2 rim, it's kind of ridiculous actually. I started to press the rear brake and was skidding all over the place. Apparently that machined brake surface on the MA3 didn't do much good :rolleyes:
Let's hear it for the benefits of machined braking surfaces. (Yes, that's sarcasm. Heavy sarcasm.)

Glad it worked for you. What a deal on those rims! I've still got my MA40 running on the front wheel of my Raleigh.

I've heard too many bad things about Alex rims, but I have had many Sun rims with great success. The double eyeleted ones are almost bulletproof.

I've heard too many bad things about Alex rims, but I have had many Sun rims with great success. The double eyeleted ones are almost bulletproof.
Which Sun rims are double eyletted? I'm only familiar wiht M13II and CR18, both of which have single eyelets.

I traded 2 cheapo tires and one cheapo BB (about $20 worth total) for a pair of these NOS MA2s :) The other is now on my fixie.

I've got the MA2 on my touring bike now and it's working fine. It's quite different from the MA3: boxier cross section, slightly more noticeable seam, DOUBLE eyelets, and non-machined brake surface. Also, the brakes work about 10X better with the MA2 rim, it's kind of ridiculous actually. I started to press the rear brake and was skidding all over the place. Apparently that machined brake surface on the MA3 didn't do much good :rolleyes:

At the beginning of the thread I was wondering why the MA3's, which had excellent reputations in the mid-to-late-1990s as very reliable albeit unsexy rims, where causing so much trouble now. I thought Mavic had perhaps changed their manufacturing, etc. Then later in the thread I realised that the old faithfuls were MA2's not MA3's. Mystery solved!

Been away from bicycles and discussions for a few years now. But it is slowly trickling back in! :-)

At the beginning of the thread I was wondering why the MA3's, which had excellent reputations in the mid-to-late-1990s as very reliable albeit unsexy rims, where causing so much trouble now. I thought Mavic had perhaps changed their manufacturing, etc. Then later in the thread I realised that the old faithfuls were MA2's not MA3's. Mystery solved!
Yeah, I don't know *what* Mavic changed about the manufacturing of the MA3's to make them so unreliable (well, the single eyelets are a clear difference). I've heard several favorable mentions of the MA2's, and nothing but bad reports about the MA3's on here... it's kind of hilarious that Nashbar's description of the MA3's before they were discontinued included the phrase "legendary reliability" :rolleyes:

Which Sun rims are double eyletted? I'm only familiar wiht M13II and CR18, both of which have single eyelets.
Oops, I posted this without realizing the OP is talking about mtb rims. I was thinking road rims like the Venus. I've heard good things about the CR18 but I must admit my experience on Sun rims is from the road and velodrome (Mistral models are awesome btw)

Oops, I posted this without realizing the OP is talking about mtb rims. I was thinking road rims like the Venus. I've heard good things about the CR18 but I must admit my experience on Sun rims is from the road and velodrome (Mistral models are awesome btw)
No, the OP is talking about road rims, but for a touring bike (which is why he considered 700c Rhyno Lite, before realizing just how heavy they actually are). Both rims I mentioned are mainly 700c (although I think Sun produces the CR18 in a 26" mtb-size also). The M13II and CR18 are both solid and dependable rims, although rim seams aren't always perfect and it can take a bit of work to get them true and round when building up a wheel. But I'm guessing that the quality control is better on Sun's higher-level, more expensive rims like the Venus and the Mistral.

Edit: it looks as if Sun currently only makes rims with single eyelets, including the Venus. See their listing of Road rims (http://www.sun-ringle.com/2006/roadrims.jpg) and Mtb rims (http://www.sun-ringle.com/2006/mtbrims.jpg). Also see OEM rims (http://www.sun-ringle.com/2006/images/oem.jpg).

One thing you get with better hubs is better seals. I don't know which gen. 105 you have but it may be sealed as well or better than alivio. Broken axles are usually a non issue with freehubs due to the wider bearing spacing. If you have horizontal drops wheel slip can be an issue with poorly aligned dropouts. So can uneven bearing wear ( any style D.O.).

One thing you get with better hubs is better seals. I don't know which gen. 105 you have but it may be sealed as well or better than alivio. Broken axles are usually a non issue with freehubs due to the wider bearing spacing. If you have horizontal drops wheel slip can be an issue with poorly aligned dropouts. So can uneven bearing wear ( any style D.O.).
Yeah, the XT hubs I've seen have big rubber cone-shaped seals on the outside of the dustcaps. The 105s aren't BAD but they aren't amazingly well-sealed, considering how easily they bleed grease after I repack them.

I am not worried about broken axles, having never had a problem in that area. I do have horizontal dropouts, but have had no problems with wheel slip with them stretched to 130 mm. However, I use bolt-on skewers which I think allow me to get more clamping force than hand-cam QR skewers.

I use bolt-on skewers which I think allow me to get more clamping force than hand-cam QR skewers.
So when you repack and adjust the hub bearings, do you leave them relatively loose since you're tightening and shortening the axle's length more with bolt-on skewers than you would with q/r skewers?
I've just been through a decision process along these lines - my newly-built fixed-gear bike has a q/r rear axle, and after a few miles I notice the rear wheel has slipped a bit forward in the horizontal dropouts. I might be able ti get it tighter with bolt-on skewers. But I think I'm just gonna buy a solid axle with tracknuts and not worry about it.

Bolt skewers devolop less clamping force than cam type Q.R.s this is because of wind up in the long narrow shaft & thread friction (even with grease) a lubed traditional Q.R. (none of that plastic washer crap) can develop tremendous clamping force. Misaligned from 126 to 130 sounds o.k. 135 might be too much.

Bolt skewers devolop less clamping force than cam type Q.R.s this is because of wind up in the long narrow shaft & thread friction (even with grease) a lubed traditional Q.R. (none of that plastic washer crap) can develop tremendous clamping force.
That was my sense too. Although I've not done a careful comparison here.

Bolt skewers devolop less clamping force than cam type Q.R.s this is because of wind up in the long narrow shaft & thread friction (even with grease) a lubed traditional Q.R. (none of that plastic washer crap) can develop tremendous clamping force. Misaligned from 126 to 130 sounds o.k. 135 might be too much.
Hmmm... interesting. I've actually broken one of these bolt-on skewers, and it did appear to be from wind-up. I've had absolutely no problems with the rear axle creeping, however.

On my fixies I've only used bolt-on, which suits me fine, and I think the potential for axle movement is a lot greater there.

Mox, I'm sorry (but of course NOT surprised) to hear about your MA3. But OMG, you have SUCH a good rim in that MA2! They go for so much on eBay for a reason!! They are one of Jobst Brandt's favorite rims, and you know how he feels about a well-made rim. They are fantastic rims. I have a pair of MA40's on my salvaged Bianchi--the bike that had been sorely abused, and then set out to be picked up with the trash, before I saved it. Not many of the original parts could be saved, but those MA40's survived virtually unscathed, *despite* being grossly undertensioned, on a bike that clearly had been ridden in an abusive manner. I was able to bring them true and round, and rode them for a while like that, then rebuilt them with double-butted spokes so they would not have to take so much punishment on the horrific San Diego broken pavement, because as Tim mentioned, they are not as bomb-proof as your MA2's (due to the fact that they are hard-anodized). But they're still pretty darn close to bomb-proof.

Another vote for Sun rims too! I got a pair of the M13II rims off eBay, from http://www.benscycle.net/ , (eBay store: http://stores.ebay.com/Bens-Cycles) a real brick and mortar store in Milwaukee and darn nice people too. Those rims are hella strong, despite being single-eyeletted. The eyeletted wall of the rim is very thick and strong, and they take amazing tension very well. Some have noted that Sun isn't always "detail-oriented" about the smoothness of the joints, but mine were perfect. I love the old-school box section look of them, and the absence of machining on the sidewalls. They ride great and brake beautifully too. Love them.

Yeah, I don't know *what* Mavic changed about the manufacturing of the MA3's to make them so unreliable (well, the single eyelets are a clear difference). I've heard several favorable mentions of the MA2's, and nothing but bad reports about the MA3's on here... it's kind of hilarious that Nashbar's description of the MA3's before they were discontinued included the phrase "legendary reliability" :rolleyes:

I have a theory about what Mavic has changed in the manufacture of their newer rims, this "Maxtal" process which is supposed to harden the alloy. I think it makes it much more brittle than the alloy that went into the older models (which truly did have the legendary reliability).