Foo - Any BF members amateur pilots?

I was 19 years old working in a playground equipment company (summer job between college semesters) when I heard on the radio that Thurman Munson was killed in the summer of 1979.

JFK Jr. and now Yankees pitcher Corey Lidle are more recent examples of the rich and famous having crashed their private "toys".

You really have to respect professional pilots. Flying an airplane is obviously not an easy thing to do.

I for one would never fly with a friend even though he is licensed.

If he didn't go the the Air Force academy and never flew a commercial jet, I ain't a goin'...

Anybody here fly their own plane?
http://www.wral.com/2006/1012/10056443_240X180.jpg

And how does this relate to road cycling?

And how does this relate to road cycling?

As much as some of the other posts such as how much money do you make, what kind of car do you drive, do you run and bike, the list is endless. If it matters, I took & passed my ground school and then got transferred so I could not use my relatives plane to continue. If you think cycling is expensive try flying. It is fun however.

I'm a flight instructor. Flying is generally less dangerous than driving, assuming you take it seriously enough and stay brushed up on your skills. The moment you take it for granted, you're screwed.

From what I've heard, Lidle was having engine trouble or possibly a complete failure and trying to find a place to land it. Over a huge city like New York, that can be a pretty tough thing to do. The Cirrus he was flying, just like every airplane Cirrus makes, was equipped with a full-airplane parachute. If something goes wrong, pull the handle and the plane floats to the ground. More likely than not you'll total the plane but you'll walk away and minimize damage to anything on the ground. Generally if your engine fails, you find a large, open area (like a field, or an airport!) and glide the plane in and land. However, if I was in that airplane and the engine failed anywhere over New York, I'd be very tempted to just pull the handle rather than try and land it somewhere. I don't think there are too many open spots in the city. And it's a BIG city.

It doesn't relate to Road Cycling at all.

My father has many many hours of flying logged. Started flying at like 18, retired some 35-40 years later. Captain at South West Airlines for 20 years. He always hated flying with (most) ex-military pilots. Something about having minimal hours and believing they knew everything. I guess when you're at the controls of an F-18 you really have to believe that to do some of the things they do.

But now that I've hyjacked an off topic thread... private flying is difficult. I personally would really like to know what Lidle was doing over New York. Isn't there still a really darned big No-Fly zone over the city?

edit: shaun - thanks for the additional info. Hadn't read much since end of work today on the crash. I'd certainly get out over water and pull the chute if I couldn't find anywhere to put it down without buildings around. Guess we won't know his reasoning for his actions though so it's all speculation and second guesses.

There are no flight restrictions over NYC, just Washington DC. However, there is tons of Class B airspace over and around the city, which is the airspace you find around most of the super-busy airports in the US. (DFW, JFK, O'Hare, etc) You need special permission to fly in that airspace but it's only at certain altitudes; above or below is generally fair game. So no, he was perfectly safe and legal to fly over the city, people do it every day. Unfortunatley, things didn't go so well for him...

Flying is a lot like cycling...
Flying an airplane unintentionally into the ground or another fixed object (building, mountain, bridge, etc.) is like turning your bike inadvertantly into the path of an oncoming 18-wheeler doing 65... there are just certain unavoidable consequences for violating a basic rule of physics!
:rolleyes:

Moving this to Foo.

From what I've heard, Lidle was having engine trouble or possibly a complete failure and trying to find a place to land it. Over a huge city like New York, that can be a pretty tough thing to do. The Cirrus he was flying, just like every airplane Cirrus makes, was equipped with a full-airplane parachute. If something goes wrong, pull the handle and the plane floats to the ground.
Well, it may have been that he was unfamiliar with the aircraft or maybe he was quite familiar. What does it say in the POH about deploying CAPS? I thought that the minimum altitude was something like 1000' AGL. Perhaps he was not clear of obstructions and didn't think he could safely deploy the chute. Of course if he was tooling around below 1000' AGL (well actually above the highest obstacle... what's the height of those buildings?) in the first place then he was already in violation of 91.119(b).



More likely than not you'll total the plane but you'll walk away and minimize damage to anything on the ground. Generally if your engine fails, you find a large, open area (like a field, or an airport!) and glide the plane in and land. However, if I was in that airplane and the engine failed anywhere over New York, I'd be very tempted to just pull the handle rather than try and land it somewhere. I don't think there are too many open spots in the city. And it's a BIG city.
Yeah... typical procedure for engine failure is to push into VBG and find something like an open road. I'm guessing he was already low and slow and simply didn't have time. I don't know what the area around him is like but I agree that maybe a slow turn over a fairly open area with a simultaneous CAPS deployment might have been the best option. It's hard to say these things (even in hindsight) without knowing the actual situation and environment. I guess we'll have to wait for the NTSB report.

Hmmm... okay. I just saw on the news that they're reporting the CAPS was activated but the chute did not deploy. I wonder if he tried to deploy it too late. or did the BRS rocket fail? The animation of the flight path showed him following the river and turning inland. That's an odd thing to do if he was having engine trouble.

And how does this relate to road cycling?

Go away, azzhole.:mad:

Me, I'm flying in my taxi. Taking Tips. Getting stoned.........

I go flyin', so high... when I'm stoned.

There is a TFR around Meadowlands but it's only active around game time.

If I'm reading the crash location correctly from the news, he was in NY's Bravo airspace, which at that spot is from the ground to 7,000'. I'll assume his plane was legal to be there. Whether the pilot ought to have been there is another question.

General aviation is as safe as the guy flying the plane. Heck, my own mom flies with me. :eek:

By the way, here's the METAR for JFK about 2 hours before he took off... It's rather telling. Note the ceiling.
KJFK 111651Z 08013KT 9SM BKN016 OVC020 17/13 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP139 T01720133

Go away, azzhole.:mad:

Dude! Just when I talk you up as BF's greatest active troll, using the fact that you rarely ever respond after your OP as one criteria, you go and respond to somebody. OMFG, THERE ARE NO MORE HEROS! :eek:

What about


http://fan.geekish.net/batman/top.gif

By the way, here's the METAR for JFK about 2 hours before he took off... It's rather telling. Note the ceiling.
KJFK 111651Z 08013KT 9SM BKN016 OVC020 17/13 A2994 RMK AO2 SLP139 T01720133

Wonder what his flightplan says... If he was scud running along the river then he was pretty well boxed in vertically. Was he IFR certified? Perhaps he was shooting for VFR on-top and attempted to climb through the ceiling when he hit the building. I'm starting to doubt the engine-trouble explanation.

Yeah, after looking at a real sectional chart (that better shows the airspace boundaries there, what a tangled web), it's possible he was in that very narrow class E (or G if he was low enough) corridor over the East River. If he tried to turn around in that corridor, it would explain the impact to buildings. Just speculation on my part.

i thought there was an emergency call from the plane about a fuel problem? i don't know much about this type of plane, but is there any reason why that would cause the pilot to swerve left? i would think if the plane was in distress landing in the water would be the safest bet.

Not unless all the fuel suddenly left his right wing. :)

The problem with where he was is that the particular airspace he was inhabiting is very narrow (~2000 feet wide?), and goes away to the north.

I'm not a local pilot to that congested area, but it looks like he had 3 choices... One was to call ATC and get permission to enter the more restrictive class B airspace near La Guardia. The second was to climb high enough to clear the Manhattan buildings, possibly entering clouds, illegally, and still entering class B airspace, before getting completely turned aound. Lastly, he could try to turn around at his low altitude, and risk hitting a building if he didn't slow down and turn tightly enough. He took the last option. Again, I'm just speculating. :) Armchair piloting is fun.

yeah, i just wonder why he would try to turn around. if the plane was experiencing problems it seems strange that he would turn left (heading into manhattan skyscrapers). even if he was susscesful in turning around, where would he go? i realize nobody here has the answers to that, obviously, but the whole thing just seems really odd to me.

It could be he was trying to RTB. Where was his point of departure? Was he close? Generally speaking, if you're having engine trouble, the last thing you want to do is enter a high-banked turn. You'll surely put yourself behind the curve.

he took off from new jersey, several miles west of manhattan. so, i guess i could see that he might try to fly over manhattan as that would be the quickest way back. manhattan is also very narrow (only like 2 miles wide) so maybe his thinking was he could get across the buildings very quickly. pretty dangerous thing to attempt.

Yeah, after looking at a real sectional chart (that better shows the airspace boundaries there, what a tangled web), it's possible he was in that very narrow class E (or G if he was low enough) corridor over the East River. If he tried to turn around in that corridor, it would explain the impact to buildings. Just speculation on my part.

I'd think he'd have busted the airspace restriction--and declared an emergency if he had not already done so. In a similar scenario, that's what I'd do, though I haven't had any pilot-in-command time since the 1980's. Better to crash a virtual wall than a steel and brick wall.

I'd think he'd have busted the airspace restriction--and declared an emergency if he had not already done so. In a similar scenario, that's what I'd do, though I haven't had any pilot-in-command time since the 1980's. Better to crash a virtual wall than a steel and brick wall.

Yep. I'd have done the same... transponder screaming 7700 all the way.

το τέλος αυτού

I don't think there are too many open spots in the city. And it's a BIG city.
That's not really true at all, the island of manhattan is a little more than 10 miles long and at its widest barely 2 miles.

He had a wife and a six year old kid. At least he was rich so they won't starve.

My dad logged like 7000 hours in the Air Force. Judging by his facility with detail and multitasking, it isn't easy to fly. Especially when you have to deal with an emergency.

Better question: How many BF members have been in a forced/emergency landing?
I have. The only engine on my plane failed. I was competent to handle it and ran my checklist. I always keep sufficient altitude to be able to glide to a reasonably safe landing site. In this case it was a single-runway controlled airport. The tower staff and the other air traffic kindly accommodated my need to come in contrary to the prevailing traffic pattern, i.e. to land in the "wrong direction." It would have looked completely normal to an observer on the ground.

It was a leased plane. The engine seemed fine during the run-up but after I was aloft for a while the tachometer slumped noticeably, so I had already chosen a place to put down. The redundant ignition system failed after I was already in contact with the tower. I never learnt what was wrong with the plane but it was back in the air after an overhaul a little ahead of schedule.

This hardly seems analogous to the situation that's being considered here.

He had a wife and a six year old kid. At least he was rich so they won't starve.

My dad logged like 7000 hours in the Air Force. Judging by his facility with detail and multitasking, it isn't easy to fly. Especially when you have to deal with an emergency.
flying does take a lot of task management skills and being able to multitask is essential. This is especially true for more modern aircraft that have much more instruments than say a Piper Cub. The Cirrus SR20 that Lidle was flying is a very advanced single-engine piston aircraft. It has about as many bells and whistles in the cockpit as one can imagine. Full glass cockpit with FMS, TCAS, advanced NAVCOM stack, strike-finder... you-name-it. There's a lot of information delivery devices there.

http://www.cirrusdesign.com/aircraft/gallery/avionics/MFDPFD.jpg

The task management skills needed for just GA flying is not that much different than for commercial/military. One thing an instructor once told me during a preflight walkaround was, "act professionally even if your arent one." You can't slack off when flying.

flying does take a lot of task management skills and being able to multitask is essential. This is especially true for more modern aircraft that have much more instruments than say a Piper Cub. The Cirrus SR20 that Lidle was flying is a very advanced single-engine piston aircraft. It has about as many bells and whistles in the cockpit as one can imagine. Full glass cockpit with FMS, TCAS, advanced NAVCOM stack, strike-finder... you-name-it. There's a lot of information delivery devices there.
...


After a few celebrity airplane fatalities, a writer for Flying magazine speculated that some people with a lot of money and a little flying experience can buy planes that exceed their competence as pilots. I'm not suggesting that such an assertion can be made in this case without the data; but the sort of pilot error that were factors with Munson and Denver and Kennedy might well have been avoided by a more experienced pilot.

I'm not suggesting that such an assertion can be made in this case without the data; but the sort of pilot error that were factors with Munson and Denver and Kennedy might well have been avoided by a more experienced pilot.
Agreed. Didn't they suspect that Denver crashed because he was flying an expiremental plane (which he just purchased and was unfamiliar with) that was constructed oddly? The fuel-selector lever was weirdly placed over the left (or maybe it was the right) shoulder and in order to operate it you had to bend yourself around which combined with how you had to grip the stick and the tight cockpit could cause a fatal cross-control leading to a spin. Apparently the builder went against the design norm when he placed the selector.

That's not really true at all, the island of manhattan is a little more than 10 miles long and at its widest barely 2 miles.

manhattan itself is pretty compact, but the greater new york area is enormous. it's all pretty heavily populated in all directions. if he was going to crash, chances are he was going to hit someones property anyway.

The task management skills needed for just GA flying is not that much different than for commercial/military.

Well, yes... if you don't count, in addition to flying the plane, managing your weapon system, flying formation, watching for bogies, watching for SAMs, watching for AAA, and, in the Navy's case, landing on a moving, pitching, rolling runway that's 750' long while you're approach speed is faster than many GA planes can max out at.

Flying the Cirrus, with all its bells and whistles, still comes down to Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. Aviate means fly the friggin' plane. If he was in the NYC VFR corridor and had a problem that required him to enter the Class B airspace without permission, then declaring an emergency and doing what the pilot feels necessary is always an option. As noted above, squawk 7700/emergency and do what you need; ATC will clear out the airspace around you.

We can speculate about the 1600 broken, 2000 over all we want but it doesn't mean a thing. 1000' and 3 miles is VFR. Maybe not the smartest time to be out sight seeing around Manhattan, but not illegal or dangerous. And I would guess that the instructor was intrument rated, so should they have needed to climb, they could have picked up IFR and gone into the clouds.

It's going to be very interesting to see what the NTSB puts together.

As for the original question, I'm a pilot. I've never had an engine quit (that I couldn't get restarted), but I have had a few emergencies or things I thought were emergencies. High oil pressure on take off. Cold oil. Turned downwind and landed. When I had ~25 or 30 hours, I was out for a long cross country. The instructor needed to go somewhere and the plan was to sign me off and let me do the solo long cross country home. I'm all of 17 or 18 with not many hours. This muldoon signs me off and launches me into a snow squall. He told me it wouldn't be anything and I'd be fine. The squall developed and I was pretty much in the clouds. I figured out where I was on the sectional and the highest thing in the area and managed to work my way out of the area, with vectors and squawking 7700 to a clear field. I've had a fire light come on, gear not extend all the way and I've been hit by lightening. Oh yeah, I've been shot at, too.

This is the plane I've been flying lately:

http://www.joelandtrish.net/picstorage/131ma.jpg

Oh yeah, going to the Air Force Academy does not a good pilot make. They get basic training just like any private pilot. It's not until they enter actual flight training that they get the good stuff. And some don't make it and of those who do, some make mistakes and crash, too.

Nice Mooney. You weren't up at KBTV for the Mooney event a few weeks ago were you?

I can't wait for the NTSB report on this one either. It's just very bizarre. And remember he had to be 500 under the deck, too. So 1100'... Not very high.

The thing with those Cirrus planes is that they market to newbie pilots. I'm a newbie pilot (one month since the checkride), and I just got a card from Cirrus telling me to come to BTV to check out their plane and go for a test flight. I think a nice leathery-smelling cabin and those gee-whiz television screens with all the pretty colors lull people into a false sense of security.

I'll admit I lust for one, though... :D


The task management skills needed for just GA flying is not that much different than for commercial/military. One thing an instructor once told me during a preflight walkaround was, "act professionally even if your arent one." You can't slack off when flying.

Very wise advice. I try to fly it like an airliner every time I fly, especially with passengers. 747s do soft field take-offs, right? :p

I just want to preface what I'm about to say by saying that it's more or less addressed to the non-pilots who might be reading this as those of us who are pilots already know it.



Well, yes... if you don't count, in addition to flying the plane, managing your weapon system, flying formation, watching for bogies, watching for SAMs, watching for AAA, and, in the Navy's case, landing on a moving, pitching, rolling runway that's 750' long while you're approach speed is faster than many GA planes can max out at.

You are of course correct. However, the point I was trying to make was that the fundamentals of approaching task management and prioritisation is essentially the same.



Flying the Cirrus, with all its bells and whistles, still comes down to Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.

You forgot to add the last part: In that order. :D



Aviate means fly the friggin' plane. If he was in the NYC VFR corridor and had a problem that required him to enter the Class B airspace without permission, then declaring an emergency and doing what the pilot feels necessary is always an option. As noted above, squawk 7700/emergency and do what you need; ATC will clear out the airspace around you.

Exactly. First order of business is basically to not crash the plane. And you can just about violate as many FARs along the way as long as you live to ask for forgiveness. In an emergency, the pilot is given quite a bit of leeway. As a matter of fact, should the pilot live to face the repercusions of their actions, they may be chastised for not violating some FARs in order to preserve the safety of flight.



We can speculate about the 1600 broken, 2000 over all we want but it doesn't mean a thing. 1000' and 3 miles is VFR. Maybe not the smartest time to be out sight seeing around Manhattan, but not illegal or dangerous. And I would guess that the instructor was intrument rated, so should they have needed to climb, they could have picked up IFR and gone into the clouds.

I hadn't realised he had an instructor with him. However, a 2000' ceiling and ringed by buildings doesn't provide a whole lot of wiggle room. I've been in situations where I've flown into montain passes with low cloud cover only to have the ceiling creep down on me so I had to scud run it all the way out. It's not a good situation to be in. If he did have an instructor, I wonder why he couldn't go VFR on-top.



It's going to be very interesting to see what the NTSB puts together.

Yeah. These things usually turn out to be either vastly more complicated than we first make it out to be our vastly more simple. :p



I have had a few emergencies or things I thought were emergencies.

Yeah. I have had them too. Once was a failing mag. Another was a gear that didn't fully retract on a 172RG so I extended it again but the indicator light wasn't showing green so I wasn't sure if had locked in place.



Oh yeah, I've been shot at, too.

Funnily (or not so) enough, so was I. Except I didn't know it until I landed. Went to extend flaps of a Piper Cadet on downwind and the lever wouldn't budge. So I came in hot, did a no-flap landing and squawked the aircraft. The A&P later draws me aside and we look at it. There was a bullet hole in the starboard wing and a graze in the extension cylinder with also a bent rod that was jamming the flaps. I was told that a lot of farmers and probably kids get bored and take shots at planes. I was lucky because a few inches forward and that shot would have been into the tank.

There was a bullet hole in the starboard wing and a graze in the extension cylinder with also a bent rod that was jamming the flaps. I was told that a lot of farmers and probably kids get bored and take shots at planes. I was lucky because a few inches forward and that shot would have been into the tank.

:eek: :mad:

Our club's plane "summers" at VT26, a private 2000' turf strip surrounded by trees, and apparently when the airport first opened many years ago, someone said he'd shoot at any plane he saw over his property. :rolleyes: It never happened, and this is way before my time, but I wonder if he was, um, "growing things", if you know what I mean. ;) ;)

I think a nice leathery-smelling cabin and those gee-whiz television screens with all the pretty colors lull people into a false sense of security.

I think a bigger danger is that they can provide a lot of distractions if one isn't trained to deal with it.



I'll admit I lust for one, though... :D

As do I... If only I had $500k laying about for a SE-22 (with the turbo of course). :D



747s do soft field take-offs, right? :p

You should see what the boys and girls at Alaska Airlines do with those 737s up in the great north. ;)

I think a bigger danger is that they can provide a lot of distractions if one isn't trained to deal with it.

Most certainly. My CFI (also ATP and ex F16 jockey - quite a stickler for details) said something funny about our portable GPS once, but I forget exactly what it was. Something about flying into the mountain when you were busy figuring out how to punch in your destination airport. He also said the GPS is "useful for finding your way out of the crash site." :D


As do I... If only I had $500k laying about for a SE-22 (with the turbo of course). :D

With the turbo, of course. ;) My wife won't let me buy one. Wives are mean.

Nice Mooney. You weren't up at KBTV for the Mooney event a few weeks ago were you?


Nope, I was in Norfolk (NGU) with it a couple weeks ago. Chapel Hill in July. It's my brother's plane, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't up at BTV recently either.


I was lucky because a few inches forward and that shot would have been into the tank.

I was lucky because the plane I flew in Desert Storm was a high value platform, so they didn't let us into range rings. Of course, some move... and watching those things come up towards you is unerving no matter how far away you know you are! And you know all that AAA you saw on CNN? I saw it from the business end....

FYI, I've heard from several sources that he had a CFI (FAA certified flight instructor) along with him. So his level of experience is, for all intents and purposes, irrelevant.

This is slightly off-topic: I didn't realize we had so many pilots on the board. Those of you who fly, what are your ratings and what do you do with them?

Me: Commercial SEL & MEL, CFI-A, CFI-I
Corporate pilot & flight instructor

burp

Dude! Just when I talk you up as BF's greatest active troll, using the fact that you rarely ever respond after your OP as one criteria, you go and respond to somebody. OMFG, THERE ARE NO MORE HEROS! :eek:

Coyote2 wants to stick his 3 inches of hot burning lead up my corhornholio.
He follows my every post. :rolleyes:

Those of you who fly, what are your ratings and what do you do with them?
PP-ASEL, IFR, PP-AMEL (not current).

I don't fly much anymore. Basically I use it to
... burn a little gas...
... make a lot of noise...
... do a little dance...
... make a little love...
... get down tonight.

Mortgages suck. :(

Cycling is my "cheap" hobby. It keeps me from other things that include gratuitous amounts of carbon fibre like airplanes and sailboats.

Yeah I fly.

Don't even need an airplane.

Give me my mtb, and some jumps, and I'll take flight. Or when gaming...

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b23/konarider24/sljump2.png

flying does take a lot of task management skills and being able to multitask is essential. This is especially true for more modern aircraft that have much more instruments than say a Piper Cub. The Cirrus SR20 that Lidle was flying is a very advanced single-engine piston aircraft. It has about as many bells and whistles in the cockpit as one can imagine. Full glass cockpit with FMS, TCAS, advanced NAVCOM stack, strike-finder... you-name-it. There's a lot of information delivery devices there.

http://www.cirrusdesign.com/aircraft/gallery/avionics/MFDPFD.jpg

The task management skills needed for just GA flying is not that much different than for commercial/military. One thing an instructor once told me during a preflight walkaround was, "act professionally even if your arent one." You can't slack off when flying.


That really points out the importance of good user interface in any kind of system. In cars it's very well standardized, but of course for many reasons it's not in planes. The most critical information and controls need to be easy to find and intuitive to use. MFD's can offer a lot of information, but if the screens aren't well designed, they can be almost useless in an emergency.

I'm not a pilot, but I've been thinking about it an increasing amount lately. Lidle's death doesn't really change my thoughts at all. I've got the money to pay for instructions now, but I probably won't have time until next spring, if I'm lucky.

In cars it's very well standardized, but of course for many reasons it's not in planes.

Interesting that you say that because I find the level of standardisation in aircraft to be on par if not better than with automobiles. The layout of most panels for modern planes are pretty close to one another. Granted, that's from the factory. Many pilots do indeed customise their panel and move some of their instruments about. The classic primary six instruments are airspeed indicator, artificial horizon, altimeter, turn coordinator, heading indicator (aka direction gyro) and vertical speed indicator. They are usually arranged in two rows of three and is common on most aircraft and for good reason. Pilots are taught to scan their instruments in a particular pattern. Additionally, pilots are taught to use two instruments to derive and cross check the readings of another because you can have a malfunctioning instrument and you need to know which one to ignore.

Ratings: PP-ASEL last month. Next year I'm going to add "Sea" to that, and start instrument. Beyond that, who knows?

Instructors aren't gods. My first one... Well... I won't badmouth him, but they're not all Chuck Yeager. ;) I have a sneaking suspicion that neither pilot knew they were seriously in trouble until the building appeared in their windscreen. We'll see...

Funnily (or not so) enough, so was I. Except I didn't know it until I landed. Went to extend flaps of a Piper Cadet on downwind and the lever wouldn't budge. So I came in hot, did a no-flap landing and squawked the aircraft. The A&P later draws me aside and we look at it. There was a bullet hole in the starboard wing and a graze in the extension cylinder with also a bent rod that was jamming the flaps. I was told that a lot of farmers and probably kids get bored and take shots at planes. I was lucky because a few inches forward and that shot would have been into the tank.

My dad got hit by AAA or a SAM, don't remember which in a C-130. Put a big hole in the wing. He landed successfully. My nick is partially an homage to him. He was a flight instructor in the Air Force for awhile.

I remember Thurman Munson as well. Some people, as it has been said above, should just take the train.