Classic & Vintage - Brooks Saddle Selection Advice

I'm looking for a new saddle for my early 80's Raleigh Super Course. I posed to Classic & Vintage for 2 reasons: a number of vintage bike fans also appear to like Brooks saddles (they came standard on a number of higher end 70's and 80's bikes), and the bike is a bit older after all.

I'm currently torn betweent the Team Professional and the Swift. The current saddle on the bike is an older Selle "Royal", which seems to chafe a bit on moderate length (20-30mile) rides. I have a B17 which currently resides on a MTB, converted to touring form.
I did fit the B17 to the Raleigh for a few short rides, and a century ride. No chafing, and overall a rather pleasant experiance for my rear. The one issue with the B17 on the Raleigh is it just feels too "wide" on that bike. My bars are about 1 1/2 to 2" lower than the saddle. The B17 feels very nice on the MTB, but that bike has a bit more of an upright riding position.

The Selle saddle is close to the Swift in width, and width wise, the Selle fit fine. The Team Pro is midway in width between the Swift and B17. For this reason, I'm leaning towards the Swift. But part of me is considering splitting the width difference, especially since I haven't ridden more than 30 miles on the narrower Selle.

Also, are there any differences in the leather between the B17 and the Swift. I understand that the Team Pro does have thicker leather.

Get the Team Pro saddle, if the B17 is a bit wide. I like the Brooks Pro on bikes that are a little small for me, and bigger bikes get the B17, 'cause I'm sitting up a little straighter.
The Swift is a bit narrow for my liking.

I have a B15 on my '78 Super Course. It feels just perfect for the bike. Shame the B17 is too big. The Champion Special model looks really sharp.

I always vote for the Professional with the big copper rivets.

I think you'd be happiest with the Professional/Team Professional then, which is what I would have suggested as well, with the B.17/15 as a second choice. (Incedentally, the only difference between the 17 and 15 is that the 17 features chamfered sides)

Go with the large-rivet model as Bob suggests if you have one of the post-'77 all-red Super Courses. Try to find a an earlier small-rivet model if you have a mid-'70s Super Course.

Used Team Pros are occasionally a better buy then brand new ones - so long as there is no tearing at the front rivets (not as common on the large-rivet Team models). It's a nice bonus to get the saddle cheaper then one would normally pay, and get it partially softened/broken in to boot!

-Kurt

There is always the B17N for a narrower saddle... but let me take this opportunity to ask.. what is the difference between the pro and team pro?

There is always the B17N for a narrower saddle... but let me take this opportunity to ask.. what is the difference between the pro and team pro?
The BIG rivets. Any flavor of the Pro is a great saddle though. The big rivets just look too cool, and help the leather to live a little longer with heavy use, or over-softening.

The BIG rivets. Any flavor of the Pro is a great saddle though. The big rivets just look too cool, and help the leather to live a little longer with heavy use, or over-softening.

Are you sure? Thought the Team designation meant the saddle was pre-softened.

I have two large rivet models - one with the Pre Softened logo on the top of the saddle, the other without.

-Kurt

Are you sure? Thought the Team designation meant the saddle was pre-softened.

I have two large rivet models - one with the Pre Softened logo on the top of the saddle, the other without.

-Kurt
Pretty sure, but not positive... The "pre-softened" version was available for a few years though; I'm thinking through the '90s. I believe the big rivet one was first called the Team Pro, when they appeared as production items on the Raleigh Team Pros in the mid '70s. Before then, I think all big rivet Pros were custom butchered. I've got a couple of NOS big rivet "Team Pro" saddles that aren't pre-softened, and date stamped from around '78. There was a time when I really loved the big rivet pro over all others, but the small rivet version rides as well. Now that I'm older, fatter and slower, the B17 is becoming more of the favorite.

Pretty sure, but not positive... The "pre-softened" version was available for a few years though; I'm thinking through the '90s. I believe the big rivet one was first called the Team Pro, when they appeared as production items on the Raleigh Team Pros in the mid '70s. Before then, I think all big rivet Pros were custom butchered. I've got a couple of NOS big rivet "Team Pro" saddles that aren't pre-softened, and date stamped from around '78. There was a time when I really loved the big rivet pro over all others, but the small rivet version rides as well. Now that I'm older, fatter and slower, the B17 is becoming more of the favorite.

I believe my Pre-Softened version dates to the mid-late 1980's - the rails on it sit a bit closer to the leather, effectively bringing the saddle position about a millimeter farther down then a '70s Pro. I gather the lowering of the rails was probably due to the rapid standardization of micro-adjust seatposts through the '80s. Incedentally, the badge on this Pro is the cheapest thing of the whole saddle, featuring the BROOKS lettering in unmodified Arial lettering - although the overlapping "O"s were not overlooked.

My large-rivet, non Pre-Softened model is dated '75. The rails sit lower, just peeping out from under the lowest edge of the leather.

Must say that the Pro is my favorite, over the B.17 and B.15. I find the leather on the two B-series saddles a literal 'pain in the @$$' to sufficently break-in, and the absence of chamfered sides on the B.15 drives me nuts when I ride in my usual getup - dress pants. :D

This is also one of the few things I deplore about the B.72 - you'd think they could have come up with a chamfered-side model - after all, it is the type of saddle a buisnessman in such clothing may ride. The rough edged side always gives the sensation that you've just torn your pants...

Take care,

-Kurt

The B17 Champion Special has thicker leather and bigger rivets than the B17 Standard. The thinner leather on the standard makes it a little more comfortable when It's new because it has more "give". The current production Team Pro is not pre-softened. Like TheOtherGuy, I like the B17 on the bikes I have that I sit more upright on. If my bars are much below seat level, I prefer the Team Pro. I've never tried a Swift.

If you get a chance to buy a Colt, don't.

The Champion Flyer is the most comfortable saddle I've ever tried, but it's heavy. It has the thinner leather and springs that really do smooth out the bumps.

That's my take on the subject.

This is also one of the few things I deplore about the B.72 - you'd think they could have come up with a chamfered-side model - after all, it is the type of saddle a buisnessman in such clothing may ride.
The B-72 I mounted on my Collegiate is a '77, was nicely broken in, and I find a joy to ride. Of course I've never tried to ride it in my pulpit robe. ;) Jeans, shorts etc. Don't ya just love those big rivets? :D

The B17 Champion Special has thicker leather and bigger rivets than the B17 Standard. The thinner leather on the standard makes it a little more comfortable when It's new because it has more "give".

Both my B.15 and B.17 are Champion Standards, and by no means can the leather on either of them be considered "thin." In fact, the B.15 saddle borders on the ridculous in this case - it is at least 4.5mm thick.

Take care,

-Kurt

The B-72 I mounted on my Collegiate is a '77, was nicely broken in, and I find a joy to ride. Of course I've never tried to ride it in my pulpit robe. ;) Jeans, shorts etc. Don't ya just love those big rivets? :D

Jeans our shorts, by virtue of being a bit thicker then dress pants makes up for the chamfered sides. I try never to ride a Brooks when wearing my workjeans on though - jeans are known to be harsh on Brooks saddles.

Yes - those big rivets certainly make the saddle, and they give it some good extra strength too. Wouldn't have anything else on one of my bikes - save for a rare exception where I might be persuaded to fit one of those air-filled Campagnolo saddles to a 1980's machine.

-Kurt

...air-filled Campagnolo saddles...
Never seen nor heard of one. Have any pictures?

Never seen nor heard of one. Have any pictures?

I don't have a photo on hand, but there should be some out there, as they are items of much intrest and discussion amongst collectors...and they fetch some high prices. I believe one of Ray Dobbin's machines is equipped with one.

They come in black or white, are marked Campagnolo at the nose on each side, and have gold trim at the nose and the sides of the saddle's rear. There is a Presta valve built into the plastic pan that allows you to fill it with air.

One of the LBS has a few pairs NOS, and one pair NOS with various stains - looks as if someone spilled coffee over it. Of course, this has to be from the one shop in town who's vintage Campagnolo selection is somewhat comprehensive mainly as they overprice anything they have.

Haven't been back to the shop in months, but I do not have an offical boycott of them - yet.

Take care,

-Kurt "Support Your Local Bike Shop When Your Local Bike Shop Supports You" K.

I don't have a photo on hand, but there should be some out there, as they are items of much intrest and discussion amongst collectors...and they fetch some high prices. I believe one of Ray Dobbin's machines is equipped with one.

They come in black or white, are marked Campagnolo at the nose on each side, and have gold trim at the nose and the sides of the saddle's rear. There is a Presta valve built into the plastic pan that allows you to fill it with air.




They also come in leather brown. If no one has posted a pic by the AM, I will take a pic of mine, which is brown.

EDIT: I forgot I had one on my Guerciotti SLX when I photographed it. Will still take some pics in the AM. BTW, I don't think it is a Presta valve.

SECOND EDIT: It is indeed a Presta. I forgot it had a screw on cap.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/d/156479-2/P2241614.JPG

"insert impressed whistling" that is a fine saddle.

BTW, I don't think it is a Presta valve.

Pretty sure the example that I saw had one - either that, or it had been adapted. Don't remember.

With all due respect to these saddles, I believe they might have looked a tad better if the nose of the saddle had been trimmed down to eliminate the heavy look it has up front.

Just doesn't look comfortable, and it has the overall appearance of anti-aerodynamics - something that the Brooks Pro doesn't suffer of - one of the many reasons I love it as a vintage racing or touring saddle.

-Kurt

Lynn, you didn't say if it is comfortable or not. It is beautiful. Kurt, have you wind tunnel tested bike saddles? ;)

Both my B.15 and B.17 are Champion Standards, and by no means can the leather on either of them be considered "thin." In fact, the B.15 saddle borders on the ridculous in this case - it is at least 4.5mm thick.

Take care,

-Kurt

My B-15 (not Champion Standard) is remarkably thin and very pliable - not much thicker than that Wright's you have. Would have no difficulty riding that in dress pants. :)

Lynn, you didn't say if it is comfortable or not. It is beautiful. Kurt, have you wind tunnel tested bike saddles? ;)

I rode it for a couple of rides. It is comfortable, and would probably be more comfortable if I rode it enough to break it in, which I have not. An interesting note on the break in. They do not recommend you inflate the saddle until after you have ridden it for a while. I like my Brooks better.

As promised, a couple more pics of the Campagnolo saddle. As you will see from the pic, Cudak888 is correct that the valve on the saddle is Presta. I have removed its protective cap. I have not yet tried to inflate the saddle.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/d/178300-2/PA152160.JPG


http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/d/178303-2/PA152162.JPG

Rumor has it that the Team Pro leather isn’t thicker than the B-17. I have both and really like the Team Pro. Anyone have a Swallow? I know it’s mucho $$$$ but I’ve been wondering if it’s any better than the other Brooks saddles.

http://cdn-81.cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users11/marinerfan/default/large-msg-115145070962.jpg

http://cdn-06.cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users11/marinerfan/default/large-msg-115145076215.jpg

Big Copper Rivets, Oh My!

Kurt, have you wind tunnel tested bike saddles? ;)

No, thank god I have not. Look at what "wind tunnel design" has done to turn the formerly beautiful automobile into a disgusting egg. Don't ever apply aerodynamics to Brooks saddles - only aesthetics...


My B-15 (not Champion Standard) is remarkably thin and very pliable - not much thicker than that Wright's you have. Would have no difficulty riding that in dress pants. :)

My B.15 has to be at least 2mm thicker then the Wrights, and by tapping it, you wouldn't know it from a saddle formed of plastic...

Take care,

-Kurt

I like the minimalist design of the swallow. Wish they weren’t so expensive.

The Colt was Brooks' attempt at an aerodynamic saddle. I have one and I think it's the ugliest Brooks I've ever seen.

Rumor has it that the Team Pro leather isn’t thicker than the B-17. I have both and really like the Team Pro. Anyone have a Swallow? I know it’s mucho $$$$ but I’ve been wondering if it’s any better than the other Brooks saddles.

I have the B-17 and the Swallow (old style with copper? rails). Not sure why but I like the Swallow only on some bikes and not others. I loved it on my old 56cm '88 RB-1 but not so much on my current 54cm RB-1. The fit of that saddle is very finicky. A little change in height or fore/aft position makes a huge difference while the B-17 seems to be comfortable in almost any situation/position.

I currently have the Swallow mounted on a Panasonic DX4000 and I love it again (different geometry?). I ride B-17's on my other road bikes and a sprung B-67 on my mountain bike so I guess I am not too particular about saddles. Up until I switched to Brooks I used to swear by my Vetta Lite saddles. They just didn't hold up over time.

Anyone have a Swallow? I know it’s mucho $$$$ but I’ve been wondering if it’s any better than the other Brooks saddles.Here is my '67 Swallow. I don't know why they're so expensive, but I suspect it's the collectors who have driven up the price. I believe the design evolved over 50 years ago based on people cutting away and lacing saddles that had spread out from being ridden after getting soaked in the rain.

http://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/d/168192-2/Dscf0013.jpg

Here is my '67 Swallow. I don't know why they're so expensive, but I suspect it's the collectors who have driven up the price. I believe the design evolved over 50 years ago based on people cutting away and lacing saddles that had spread out from being ridden after getting soaked in the rain.

Interesting that the Swallow, obviously a high performance, very nice looking, road saddle, has eyelets in the rear for a saddle bag. The professional doesn't come with eyelets. Any thoughts about that?

As implied by its name, the Professional is a racing saddle, presumably used by professional racers who would not need the bike for commuting. My Swallow is a 1967 model, when most cyclists in England still did not own cars and rode their bike to work or school and club runs and races on weekends. That explains the need for saddlebag eyelets. Today's Swallow is a limited edition "show" saddle and does not have eyelets either.

I you get a chance to check out the Brooks Colt, I think you will be glad you did. Its smaller copper rivets and sleek design give it an understated elegance. Pay no attention to those that disparage this fine saddle – this is not the Chrysler Airflow, or Ford Edsel of saddles.

Some of the features of the Brooks Colt:

Wide nose allows one to use that part of the saddle.

Nice curved top -- sort of like a San Marco Rolls

Narrow (152x280) -- The very comfortable B-17 is too wide for fast training/racing, and I find it impossible to ride on the front part of the saddle.

I haven't ridden a Team Pro, but the nose also appears to be too narrow.

The Colt is a finely crafted saddle, with ample, thick leather all the way down the chamfered side of the saddle (like the Campagnolo discussed earlier). The front of the nose of this saddle is also completely covered (also like the Campagnolo). You can still find them at Permaco. I have the Black/Chrome model, but I think the Black rails would look cooler. I didn’t find any thing “Pre-Softened” on the Pre-Softened model.

As technology improves, and bike now struggle to stay over the 15 lb. weight limit, perhaps we’ll see a return of the Brooks saddle to the professional peloton.

Go to:

http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Parent-Brooks-Colt-leather-saddle-1868.htm (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Parent-Brooks-Colt-leather-saddle-1868.htm)

for nice photos of Brooks saddles.

http://cdn-81.cdn.buzznet.com/assets/users11/marinerfan/default/large-msg-115145070962.jpg

The only bad thing about the Team Pro is it's a heavy Mo Fo. I took this saddle off the Lemond and put it on my Trek commuter. Now I have some color on the Trek and I'm putting a Swift Ti on the Lemond. I think the swallow is out of my price range.

I made the mistake of showing my wife a picture of the new B18 "Lady" saddle yesterday and now she wants one for her mixte. It's awfully expensive, but I think I'll get her one for Christmas, along with a pair of their new grips.

I said to avoid the Brooks Colt because mine is not comfortable for me and I think it's ugly. It was their top touring saddle at one time, though. Sheldon Brown didn't like them either. He said somewhere that it's the only Brooks they refused to carry ar Harris Cyclery.

I have Brooks on everything, except my Schwinn Breeze, which has an almost mint Schwinn "S," saddle on it that I wouldn't dare change and my Schwinn Suburban, which will get a Brooks one day, but for now, is my never ending work in progress....big sigh! Here's the line up....

'94 Schwinn Sidewinder....Brooks B17 Champion Special....British Racing Green with (hang on Pastor Bob)BIG copper rivets!!!! :-D
'73 Schwinn Varsity....Brooks B17 Champion Flyer....Why not make a tank-weight bike a little heavier?! :-D
'74 Fuji Dynamic 10....Brooks B17 Standard....in Honey color....looks fabulous!

Anyway, obviously, the Brooks B17 is my favorite style of the Brooks saddles. Truthfully, it's the only model I've tried, but I loved it from the first day, not experiencing any of the uncomfortable break in period that some talk about. I must have enough padding of my own that the hard saddle really isn't much of an issue, huh? LOL!

I might be the only one who prefers the Team Pro over the B-17. Both saddles are fine but the Pro really worked nice for me.