General Cycling Discussion - I hope this is not a fad.

http://www.bikeiowa.com/asp/hotnews/newsdisplay.asp?NewsID=1799

What do you think?

I see absolutely nothing new mentioned in that article. Carbon for commuter frame? You've got to be joking.

Sounds to me like the genre-of-the-year. Bike manufacturers keep trying to invent the next "mountain bike" to open up the market to new users.

Sounds to me like the genre-of-the-year. Bike manufacturers keep trying to invent the next "mountain bike" to open up the market to new users.

Amen.
I can't see the practicality of CF for a commuter frame of all things. Besides being pricey it is too fragile to take the kind of abuse that a normal commuter bike typically recieves. Give me a good old mild steel Raleigh any day:p What they need to be doing is looking at price points and what a typical minimum wage earner would be willing to spend. I realize that there will be a need for "re-education" in costs of a bicycle vs cost of a car, but as energy costs continue to rise they won't have many choices.

Aaron:)

While not earth shattering news a couple of things to note:

First, it was originally published in the Wall Street, a major publication to affluent readers. Hopefully it got widely read.

Second, Taking a peruse of bike manufactures sites does leave me with the impression that after seeing what seemed to me to be a decline in commuter specific bikes last year, it appears that there are more new models in the new lineup in a variety of material and price points. I see a lot of steel and aluminum, and while most are flat bar road bikes there are some other configurations and several with fenders, racks, lights, and chain guards.

I would consider both points a good thing.

Too utilitarian for our style oriented American public. (http://sheldonbrown.com/english-3.html) We deserve the overpriced, finicky, uncomfortable crap that's become the norm.

friction shifting needs to make a comeback

If commuter bikes get more people onto bicycles and out of their cars - YAAAAAAAAAAA!

I can tell you that lots of folks go into a bike shop these days and think that nothing in the entire shop even remotely looks like a "bicycle" as they know it. Does this keep lots of them from looking (or riding) any farther? Probably. If commuter bikes sell, fine. If they don't, then we'll all get more of the same that we've been getting over the past decade. Me; I'd prefer the variety.

SB commented about the latest models of "coaster" bikes at the latest Interbike.

What is needed is both a solid product (the Ellsworth Ride with the infinite gear hub is a likely candidate), and some good marketing to sell to the average Joe Sixpack a solid commute bike. Something that is strong enough to take the daily stuff a commute bike has to, but not weigh 50 pounds and look exactly like the bikes rusting in grandpa's back yard. Maybe chuck in a gimmick or two for a perceived cool factor.

IMHO, I'm not sure how bike companies can sell "commute" bikes to average Americans who barely can tell the difference between a freeride bike and a recumbant. Its likely hard to convince Joe Sixpack to buy a bike unless it is perceived that it can bounce over boulders the size of houses, or win the Tour by just looks alone...

Maybe bike companies need to get the same marketing guys that Apple did, who turned what was a relatively fringe geek toy at the time (a MP3 player) into an electronic item that is a must have for most.

In any case, I sort of don't care what the bikes look like, if people buy them... more bikes, the more accepted it is to use them to commute, and the more facilities people will make available for bike riding at stores, offices, and other places.

I can't see the practicality of CF for a commuter frame of all things.

Why not? My bike has CF and it is quite sturdy. I don't really understand why people think a commuter bike is subjected to any more abuse than regular road riding. A road is a road regardless of the destination.

whatever happened to "thermoplastic"? GT used to make some LTS bikes out of thermo and they were pretty tough.

Why not? My bike has CF and it is quite sturdy. I don't really understand why people think a commuter bike is subjected to any more abuse than regular road riding. A road is a road regardless of the destination.

+1

whatever happened to "thermoplastic"? GT used to make some LTS bikes out of thermo and they were pretty tough.

I'm still waiting. I kind of think that may be the next really big change in bicycles. If they can come up with the right material and injection mold bike frames we might see the cost of production absolutely plummet.

CFRP (carbon-fiber reinforced plastic) is commonly used in industry. The technology is inexpensive, mature, and available. If bike companies don't use it, it's probably because current alternatives are lighter, cheaper, or both.

+1


+10

CF is plenty strong and sturdy. Of course "commute" is different for everyone, so it is hard to make a blanket statement about it anyhow. My full "commute" (when i have the energy) is 31 miles each way. Pretty much on 2 lane rural type roads. The same roads my non-commuting "roadie" friends ride for fun. (I do too).

Now if I had a super potholed, inner city commute where I had to lock my bike outside, I wouldn't use the same bike. But like I said above, we all have different commutes to begin with.

And heck, the US is all about fads. If it takes a fad to get more people cycling, then so be it.

-D

Of course "commute" is different for everyone,

That's a really good point. I think these "new" commuter bikes are designed around a 12 block ride to a train station.

They would have to be a better trend than those AWFUL chopper looking things I see in the local Performance bike shop. I have only seen one actually being ridden. It was on a MUP and the early teen aged guy's little sister, not much more than a toddler, was complaining that he was going too slow. He looked like he was in pain and they were probably less than a mile from their car.

Lighter versions of the bikes from the 40's and 50's would be a BIG improvement of those "chopper" pieces of junk.
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/thebabybungalow_1912_18145002

Why CF isn't a popular candidate for commuting? When commuting is heavy or the norm for inner city travel your frame tends to be nicked, kicked & abrased far more often. If there are no other or very few commuters to share a rack or pole with, CF is fine.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Bicycle_parking_lot.jpg/300px-Bicycle_parking_lot.jpg

They would have to be a better trend than those AWFUL chopper looking things I see in the local Performance bike shop. I have only seen one actually being ridden. It was on a MUP and the early teen aged guy's little sister, not much more than a toddler, was complaining that he was going too slow. He looked like he was in pain and they were probably less than a mile from their car.

Lighter versions of the bikes from the 40's and 50's would be a BIG improvement of those "chopper" pieces of junk.

I passed one of those recently on my commute home. The guy riding it looked like he would have been equally as comfortable on a real chopper. They're neat. And if it gets more people on a bike I'm all for it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Bicycle_parking_lot.jpg/300px-Bicycle_parking_lot.jpg

Was that photo from Amsterdam? I remember seeing a 3 level parking garage for bikes that was absolutely overflowing, with dozens or even hundreds more parked outside. That's something I'd love to see in the US. The quote in the article, taken from a Specialized catalog, about the wide-ranging benefits of cycling hits the nail on the head. Cycling can have beneficial effects on health (obesity, cardiovascular conditioning, stress reduction, diabetes, etc) and the environment (less air pollution and therefore reduced impact on the ozone layer, less congestion on the roads, decreased use and reliance upon gasolne, etc.) There are so many reasons why the US could benefit from getting more people on bikes regularly, whether it is for recreation, fitness, or commuting. Of course I'm preaching to the choir here on Bike Forums. :)

And if it gets more people on a bike I'm all for it.

Amen... just get out and ride! :)

That's a really good point. I think these "new" commuter bikes are designed around a 12 block ride to a train station.
You mean like this at the Leiden and Amsterdam, NL (top two) and Heidelberg, Germany train stations?
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4659/bikeparkingleidennl6np.th.jpg (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bikeparkingleidennl6np.jpg) http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/316/bikeparkingcentraalstationamst.th.jpg (http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bikeparkingcentraalstationamst.jpg)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5199/heidelberghbfside7yi.th.jpg (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heidelberghbfside7yi.jpg) http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/1158/heidelberghbffront0ci.th.jpg (http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heidelberghbffront0ci.jpg)

My bike in foreground at Heidelberg HauptBahnhof:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3520/hdbahnhofmybikeinfront6rh.th.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hdbahnhofmybikeinfront6rh.jpg)


BTW many of these commuters manage to do more than a 12 block ride. Probably don't go with the club on training peloton rides in the evening with 'em though. So I can see why US cycling experts would find them less than adequate for commuting.

ILTB... http://www.ornery.net/images/ThumbsUp.gif

Why CF isn't a popular candidate for commuting? When commuting is heavy or the norm for inner city travel your frame tends to be nicked, kicked & abrased far more often. If there are no other or very few commuters to share a rack or pole with, CF is fine.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Bicycle_parking_lot.jpg/300px-Bicycle_parking_lot.jpg

SamHouston +20

Why CF isn't a popular candidate for commuting? When commuting is heavy or the norm for inner city travel your frame tends to be nicked, kicked & abrased far more often.

Yes if you want to generalize commuting to inner city travel. My point is that there are all kinds of commuters. No single bike or frame type is going to be perfect.

-D

I think its more important to educate new bike buyers, but that doesnt always happen at a bicycle shop. One shop told me I should go with a hybrid, and another told me I should go with a mountain bike. you know what? they were both right to a degree. The hybrid would have been a little more than my mtb, but I could have switched to drop bars, changed the tires, made a few more modifications and I would have had a semi road bike. The mtb was right, because it was a more comfortable position right off than the hybrid, plus it cost me less so I could find out that I want something like a road bike. I would have bought a more expensive MTB, but the guy at the store said I shouldnt spend the money, since I may end up wanting another bike down the road. That guy was right. I love my mtb, but im glad I didnt spend a pile on it. Now I can use it as a commuter, and down the road, Ill by a road bike. A cross likely would have been the best bet, but I didnt know a lot about bikes. If more people took good test rides on different types of bikes, and had more information, then I think purchasing a bike would be better. In the end, too many people buy a bike that isnt right for them, and they just figure that cycling isnt fun.

They would have to be a better trend than those AWFUL chopper looking things I see in the local Performance bike shop. I have only seen one actually being ridden. It was on a MUP and the early teen aged guy's little sister, not much more than a toddler, was complaining that he was going too slow. He looked like he was in pain and they were probably less than a mile from their car.
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/thebabybungalow_1912_18145002
That's because it needs a taller "sissy bar"!!!:D
Then it would be faster!
My chopper was built in 1975, has 5 speeds & disc brakes. And I can still ride it pretty fast!:eek:

They would have to be a better trend than those AWFUL chopper looking things

Actually, I kind of like the chopper look. I even thought about building one up for myself but I couldn't think of anyplace I'd want to ride one.

Well, if you did the chopper more like a recumbant, you would probably have an ok setup.

In matters of taste, there can be no dispute. Some like choppers, some like commuters, some like road bikes, some like recumbents, etc.

Where practical, it is always best to use human-powered vehicles rather than motor-powered ones. Better for the environment, and, more importantly, better for the health of the rider (most of whom, myself included, need all the exercise we can get).

Point is, I'm for having EVERY possible bike available. That way, more folks will be likely to ride.

This is marketing at it's best. Make something up to meet a 'need' and sell, sell, sell it like it's something different from what is already out there. Most commuters will ride what they are already comfortable with. bk

The American public has already bought into "marketing"... hook, line & sinker. As Adiankur pointed out, they walk out of bike shops with whatever is the flavor of the month, or decade, as the case may be. Meanwhile, people who really use their bikes on a daily basis (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-41,GGLJ:en&q=Amsterdam%20bikes&sa=N&tab=wi), year after year, decade after decade, are still buying the best tool for the job, for much less than our public gets sucked into paying.

I passed one of those recently on my commute home. The guy riding it looked like he would have been equally as comfortable on a real chopper. They're neat. And if it gets more people on a bike I'm all for it.

Agreed.
Not all bikes have to be such serious efficiency speed machines...sometimes they can just be fun.

Those may be a great tool in an absolutely flat city like Amsterdam, but they would be nearly useless in a city like Seattle. I for one am happy that there is such a variety available. If I had no choice besides a heavy, single speed, coaster brake bike I would be forced into owning and operating a car.

The point is, commuter fashioned bikes are completely "out of fashion" in this country. 99% of the bikes available ALL OVER THIS COUNTRY are not proper commuter bikes. Everywhere else in the world it's the exact opposite.

Maybe a commuter type bike should be free of any tax at the time of purchase ?

I love this idea.

The thing about CF is to make the bike look exotic enough that the style slaves might be willing to hop on it.

Oh, and CF can be used on a bike suitable for everyone...it just has to be done in a practical manner. There are nearly full carbon suspension forks being used for mountain downhill racing....if CF can take that, I'm sure it can take potholes for years on end (so long as the part is designed to be durable).

I do like the idea of aluminum frames though...keep it light, and affordable.

One more "commuter" built here, but not sold here: (http://gb.cannondale.com/bikes/07/ce/urban/vintage/model-7VR8.html)

http://www.ornery.net/images/Vintage_8_Ultra.jpg

Just plain irritating, and I blame our consumers more than the manufacturer. I know the Street Premium (http://www.cannondale.com/bikes/07/cusa/urban/street/model-7SS8.html) is close, but why can't we have this one? This is what most bikes sold in this country should look like, kick stand and all!

The rear fender is a bit too short. Even with the rubber tip it doesn't quite get the wheel covered to a 90 degree line from the ground..

The American public has already bought into "marketing"... hook, line & sinker. As Adiankur pointed out, they walk out of bike shops with whatever is the flavor of the month, or decade, as the case may be. Meanwhile, people who really use their bikes on a daily basis (http://images.google.com/images?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-41,GGLJ:en&q=Amsterdam%20bikes&sa=N&tab=wi), year after year, decade after decade, are still buying the best tool for the job, for much less than our public gets sucked into paying.

Ain't that the truth. I just spent a fair amount of money building up a second racing bike (probably $800 in all), with the idea that I would also use it for commuting. I have quickly come to the conclusion that instead of figuring out how to put a rack, fenders, etc. on it, that I'm pretty much going to have to go out and get a commuter.

It's not too big of a waste -- I wanted a winter bike, and to try out a different geometry -- but for well under $400 I can go out and buy a brand new aluminum framed 'city bike' with 7-speed Shimano internal hubs, fenders, lights, rack, etc. A little extra for a hand brake (instead of coasters in back). Not ready for the peloton, but it will take years of abuse, weather, sitting out at the train station, etc., etc.

For example: http://www.taarnby.dk

You mean like this at the Leiden and Amsterdam, NL (top two) and Heidelberg, Germany train stations?
My bike in foreground at Heidelberg HauptBahnhof...


This picture is funny because I imagine the guy in the middle saying to himself:

"Now where did I park my bike..?"

This picture is funny because I imagine the guy in the middle saying to himself:

"Now where did I park my bike..?"
Actually it ain't that hard. Of course you and I can only imagine that many people in North America using a bike to get to a single destination.

"Proper commuter bike?"

Easy on the terminology. If a bunch of roadies mused on what a "proper" bike *should* look like, I think you guys would be up in arms.

I see a great number of people who ride day in and day out on road racing bikes, cross bikes, mountain bikes of all descriptions, and yes, carbon bikes. And while I can see the value of the utility-based bikes mentioned here, I'll probably never ride one myself.

"Proper commuter bike?"

Easy on the terminology. If a bunch of roadies mused on what a "proper" bike *should* look like, I think you guys would be up in arms.

I see a great number of people who ride day in and day out on road racing bikes, cross bikes, mountain bikes of all descriptions, and yes, carbon bikes.
Really? Got any pictures of those bunch of roadies' commuting bikes parked in town or some other location somewhere, or are they mostly on the road riding in circles until they get back home or to their parked cars?

You mean like this at the Leiden and Amsterdam, NL (top two) and Heidelberg, Germany train stations?
http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/4659/bikeparkingleidennl6np.th.jpg (http://img115.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bikeparkingleidennl6np.jpg) http://img450.imageshack.us/img450/316/bikeparkingcentraalstationamst.th.jpg (http://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bikeparkingcentraalstationamst.jpg)
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/5199/heidelberghbfside7yi.th.jpg (http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heidelberghbfside7yi.jpg) http://img424.imageshack.us/img424/1158/heidelberghbffront0ci.th.jpg (http://img424.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heidelberghbffront0ci.jpg)

My bike in foreground at Heidelberg HauptBahnhof:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3520/hdbahnhofmybikeinfront6rh.th.jpg (http://img230.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hdbahnhofmybikeinfront6rh.jpg)


BTW many of these commuters manage to do more than a 12 block ride. Probably don't go with the club on training peloton rides in the evening with 'em though. So I can see why US cycling experts would find them less than adequate for commuting.


Gee, works great in a flat country without 'burbs.

Gee, works great in a flat country without 'burbs.
You been in Germany lately? If so the geography must have changed since your last visit.

How about Chicago, Philadelphia, and a zillion other places where people could get to where they often want to go without going cross country or climb mountain ranges?

You been in Germany lately? If so the geography must have changed since your last visit.

How about Chicago, Philadelphia, and a zillion other places where people could get to where they often want to go without going cross country or climb mountain ranges?

Never been there honestly. And I know France is far from flat.

I really don't know why Americans cannot seem to get on bicycles. In fact, I just finished a message discussing Toronto and how they seem to have mass participation in cycling, as does Portland and Seattle, while sunny southern California cannot seem to get it together.

It really baffles me... the weather in San Diego should be perfect for cycling... and yet... so few do.

You can pretty much commute on any bicycle if you round it long enough, you just get used to it.

Just think of it like a bicycle seat, no matter how comfortable or uncomfortable it is too the touch, its still gonna hurt your ass for a while till you break it in! Why not just ride everything and anything? I've ridden so many different bikes in my lifetime I can use a piece of a 2X4 as a seat and it wouldnt phaze me, or hurt my ass.

I couldnt understand how people could ride road bikes not too long ago, I found them too uncomforable to ride, what with there back breaking leaning forward riding style, but after a few days of riding one its no big deal. A road bike could be perfect for commuting with, especially for the speed conscious (so long as you dont mind sweating from pedalling a hard gear), and they are great over an upright bicycle on the windy days.

You been in Germany lately? If so the geography must have changed since your last visit.

How about Chicago, Philadelphia, and a zillion other places where people could get to where they often want to go without going cross country or climb mountain ranges?

New York City isn't flat either. Once you get beyond Manhattan, there are HILLS in the Bronx.

I've been able to ride all over with a 3 speed Sturmey Archer hub. All you have to do is make sure direct drive drops to 48' or 52' inches. That will give you a fairly low first gear adequate for most city and not city riding. My new Sturmey 5 speed hub geared bicycle's 1st gear is a low as my Jamis Aurora! It goes to show you, the bicycle doesn't need many gears if you're willing to sacrifice the high ones for low gears.

Like I said, "Hook, line & sinker."

There's a reason these things are called "Commuters" by their manufacturers:

Trek L200 Navigator Commuter (http://www.eskimo.com/~bfarwick/my_bike.html)
"Broadway Bike" Master Model (http://broadwaybicycleschool.com/mastermodel.html) by Broadway Bicycle School
ANT (http://www.antbikemike.com/images/Bikes/Demo/winterbike2big.jpg) Commuter
Cannondale Street Premium (http://willybikes.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=1&id=10247) "King of Commuter Bikes"
Breezer (http://www.breezerbikes.com/bike_details.cfm?bikeType=town&frame=d&bike=villager) of course
Koga Miata (http://www.kogausa.com/Town&Country.htm)
Jamis Commuter 3.0 (http://www.jamisbikes.com/usa/bikes/07_bikes/commuter3.html)
I could "commute" on everything from a skateboard to a track bike, but those are "proper" commuters, as everyone in the rest of the world already knows.