what's wrong with a clean bike lane?



Very little... if they exist. Otherwise you ride what you got.

Being able to ride any street anywhere, means I don't have limits.
As opposed to those who have been so debilitated by bike accomodations in their area that they have developed limits that preclude them from being able to ride at all in "bike unfriendly" cities like Atlanta and Phoenix.

if I had to rely on using lanes or paths, I flat out could not leave my house.

Everybody keeps saying that "If I had to rely on ...." Well, most people do not ride because there are not enough paths and bike lanes. If there were more of these nice facilities, more people would get out there and ride instead of drive, there could even be a real critical mass (not a protest, an actual critical mass of people) and thus less need to keep catering to the automobile.

you don't default in the travel lanes when there is an acceptable and safe lane position to the right. simple. QED. almost glaringly obvious.

you don't default in the travel lanes when there is an acceptable and safe lane position to the right. simple. QED. almost glaringly obvious.


"Safe and acceptable." You said it yourself.

For what it's worth, I like bike lanes myself and use them when and where available. If none are available though, I use the road like any other vehicle.The only time I go "Dynamic" as you call it is if I am at a light and have a risk of being right hooked! Otherwise I ride to the right, but not in the gutter.

The only time I go "Dynamic" as you call it is if I am at a light and have a risk of being right hooked! Otherwise I ride to the right, but not in the gutter.
What if...


you're planning on turning left?
you need to pass a slower cyclist up ahead?
you're going down a grade or with a stiff tailwind at 25+ mph?
you're on a road with lots of commercial entrances to your right, no same-direction traffic, and lots of oncoming traffic likely to turn left across your path if they don't notice you?

As opposed to those who have been so debilitated by bike accomodations in their area that they have developed limits that preclude them from being able to ride at all in "bike unfriendly" cities like Atlanta and Phoenix.
Tell all about your "bilitated" cycling in Atlanta and Phoenix. Maybe even compare your knowledge/experiences with cycling daily in those cities with Daily Commuter's knowledge/experiences with cycling in Portland. Sould make for an imaginative story!

Bek, what are the odds that on any given roadway that the shoulder/bike lane is an acceptable place to ride, assuming one even exists (think about every road out there)?

What are the odds that on any given roadway the traffic lane is an acceptable place to ride?

Based on those odds, what should be the default position for a cyclist?

What if...


you're planning on turning left?
you need to pass a slower cyclist up ahead?
you're going down a grade or with a stiff tailwind at 25+ mph?
you're on a road with lots of commercial entrances to your right, no same-direction traffic, and lots of oncoming traffic likely to turn left across your path if they don't notice you?

HH, use some common sense and don't go all absolutist black and white on me......

Of course there are exceptions, like a left turn. My PRIMARY position is to ride to the right!

As to not noticing me? How do you miss a man on a red bike in a brilliant yellow jersey or other jersey so loud colored that they glow in the dark and in the daytime they have to put on sunglasses in New Jersey when I hit the road in Indiana?http://dune.servint.com/uploads/f_eyebrows.gif

Basically, on certain practices we have a basic disagreement is all.

Debilitated? Who among us drives to their bicycle coalition meetings and who among us rides? Which of us live in cities with bicycle coalition meetings that are heavily attended and heavily involved in the planning meetings that decide how roads will be designed? And who among us has anemic and powerless bicycle advocacy organization?

What if...


and what if not? those are exceptions to the rule.

Bek, what are the odds that on any given roadway that the shoulder/bike lane is an acceptable place to ride, assuming one even exists (think about every road out there)?

What are the odds that on any given roadway the traffic lane is an acceptable place to ride?

Based on those odds, what should be the default position for a cyclist?

the default position on a road with acceptable shoulders or bike lanes is right there; and on roads without, it is not there. again, almost painfully obvious. Diane has them on %75 percent of her daily ride; i have well accomodated bike lanes for about 30 percent of mine.

Yes, sometimes i have to leave the bike lane, but safe travel and lateral DLLP occurs FROM the bike lane.

HH, use some common sense and don't go all absolutist black and white on me......

Of course there are exceptions, like a left turn. My PRIMARY position is to ride to the right!

As to not noticing me? How do you miss a man on a red bike in a brilliant yellow jersey or other jersey so loud colored that they glow in the dark and in the daytime they have to put on sunglasses in New Jersey when I hit the road in Indiana?http://dune.servint.com/uploads/f_eyebrows.gif

It's called inattentional blindness and you should read about it.

Today I narrowly avoided a bag of wood screws strewn about the roadway. The shoulder, however, was fine.

I ply the roads of Santa Barbaria every day on this low-slung trike. It's so low I can see the mud in people's wheel wells. I bottom out on speed bumps in the parking lot. I ride in the bike lanes and shoulders at an average of about 12 or 13 miles an hour. Sometimes only 10 or 11. I don't get right-hooked. I don't get left-hooked. (Why not? Because I'm not stupid! That's why.) The streets are kept swept so I don't get a lot of flats.

When I ride in the bike lane I am going straight ahead. When it's time to turn left, I move into the left turn lane and am able to trigger most lights with my trike. There are a couple of places where the bike lane is too close to the parked cars, so I move a little left. There are a couple of places where people emerge from offramps and usually overshoot the stop-line, so I move out into the travel lane a bit. There are places where there are no bike lanes so I naturally take up some travel lane space. But I see very little need to do any grand, sweeping lane grabs or practice any inordinate attention-grabbing "relevancy" swerves. Riding like an regular bicyclist seems to do the job just fine each and every day.

You black/white absolutist/reductionist thinkers fail to understand that a well-designed urban bikeway system can benefit cyclists without sacrificing any vehicular cycling principles. There are probably more cyclists in Santa Barbara on any given day than in all of the San Diego city limits. We have the same weather, similar terrane (don't give me that hill/canyon crap, it's not that bad and you know it--besides we seek out hills around here--4000 feet of elevation gain is a day of recreation around here), and a similar population. But more cyclists. Why on earth might that be? Look at Portland. It rains all the time there. I never ride in the rain. But they have even more cyclists than Santa Barbara and San Diego and probably Phoenix combined. So what's their secret? Absolutist, DLLP, Forrester-ite VC, anti-bike lane BS? I don't think so.

Go with what works. On-street facilities work.

It's called inattentional blindness and you should read about it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA....your pet 'innatentional blindness' gambit you pull totally out of context from a legal beagle sales website? yeah, read up about it

It would be a tough call to pick the winner between sbhikes and Bekologist in the first annual A&s Non-seqUitor Soliloquy contest.

what are you talking about? thanks for the, what do you call it, "attack of the messenger," Head. nice to see you can't defend your argument with sound lane positioning advice, and start right off criticizing the fact i ride (and crash) a lot more than you do.

and whats with using those bike lanes when there is traffic again anyway? When a lane position is safe and acceptable for use when there IS traffic, there is NOTHING that makes that lane position unsafe in the ABSENCE of traffic.


You DON'T default to the travel lanes when there is a safe and accepetable lane position to the right to ride.THAT'S the default position.

When there is a safe and acceptable shoulder ( as showcased in the recent 'low vis' 'highway 101', and 'logging truck' threads) riding DLLP FROM THE SHOULDER is the default position.

THE DEFAULT POSITION for a vehicular bicyclist on a road with a safe and acceptable bike lane will be in the bike lane.

It's called inattentional blindness and you should read about it.
People who beleive into 'inattentional blindness' are totally naive. Only complete idiot would admit that he saw what he hit before the fatal accident.

If he admits that he wanted to teach moron a lesson: first degree murder.
If he admits that he saw it, but did not estimate speed/distance right: second degree murder.
If he lies that he did not see anything: accident. Inattentional blindness.

THE DEFAULT POSITION for a vehicular bicyclist on a road with a safe and acceptable bike lane will be in the bike lane.
I'm glad you don't call the shots for me.
Conversly, I don't call the shots for you. Perhaps you should stay out of the motor vehicle lane.
Part of my commute has a, ~4', paved shoulder. If I position myself there instead of the travel lane, I get closer and higher speed passing and it's my fault for inviting it by riding too far to the right.

By the way, you seem to crash a lot more than I do.;)

has a, ~4', paved shoulder. If I position myself there instead of the travel lane, I get closer and higher speed passing and it's my fault for inviting it by riding too far to the right.

Same here, shoulders (many with good paving identical to the travel way) from 4' to 1'. Lots of motorist would 'expect' a cyclist to ride in that shoulder, right of the fog line.

No friggin way! Why? like commuter said, it invites motorists to stay on the gas peddle thus, the overtaking speed is much higher than when riding in the lane. Higher over taking speed = less margin for error = higher degree of probability of death or serious injury should a collision occur.

Secondly, these shoulders invariably have intermittent debris and/or varying nominal widths which will force the cyclist out into the travel lane. So, in order to ride a strait a predictable line, it is best to take your place in the lane and continue on as if the shoulder did not exist.

You DON'T default to the travel lanes when there is a safe and accepetable lane position to the right to ride.THAT'S the default position.

When there is a safe and acceptable shoulder ( as showcased in the recent 'low vis' 'highway 101', and 'logging truck' threads) riding DLLP FROM THE SHOULDER is the default position.

THE DEFAULT POSITION for a vehicular bicyclist on a road with a safe and acceptable bike lane will be in the bike lane.

Bek, even if I were to concede your point that the default position on a road with a safe and acceptable shoulder/bike lane was the shoulder/bike lane, that would work for what, 1% of the roads in the world? Maybe less? You struggle to find roads where DLLP "doesn't work" yet most people on this board can point out situations where even a wide shoulder/bike lane isn't the best place for a cyclist should ride. If you actually understood DLLP, you'd realize that it "does work" even on your special case roads. You simply don't take the travel lane because there is constant faster same direction traffic.

it works for well accomodated roads, Joejack. and what's wrong with crashing, commuterrun? I've never crashed in the bike lane. its usually on loose, wet gravel roads and trails...trying to manuver a fully loaded touring bike downhill doing 40 on loose gravel. Ever try doing 40 downhill on gravel, commuterun?

Haven't you heard? if you ride a lot, its not IF you crash, its WHEN you crash. I wonder about "Bicyclists" that claim to have 'ridden' for decades and never crashed. THEM I wonder about.....

my propensity to push the bike envelope aside,

the default position for a Vehicular bicyclist on a road with a well provided bike accomodation will be in the bike lane. Dynamic Lateral Lane Positioning on roads with well accomodated bikelanes occurs FROM the bike lane.

the default position for a bicyclist on a well accomodated roadway is using that road correctly, following the law, the roadway stripes, and using the accomodation in the manner the road has been designed.

all your guys WEAK, sophmoric arguments against DLLP using accomodations predicate CRAPPY road or lane conditions. You're correct, you guys, you don't default to a 4-1 foot variable shoulder. its as if all you protesters are screaming like little kids

"but what if the bike lane goes away? what if the shoulder crumbles? what if I have to make a left turn?" those are exceptions to the Dynamic lateral lane right position on well accomodated roadways rule

. so yes, boys, when you need to leave an acocmmodation because the accom becomes less than acceptable OR you have to make a left turn, then you lateral out leave the accomodation. i bet even san diego has classes on how to use roads and striped lanes effectively.

heres a bike lane that a VC DLLP rider will default to. this is the correct, legal, proper lane position on this road. it is using the lane striped for bikes to the bicyclists advantage. there is NO compelling reason to default position in the travel lanes when there is a safe and acceptable lane position such as pictured here.

I don't know...I've found that, in Oklahoma at least, people give you more leeway if you're in the travel lane. When I ride on the shoulder, people tend to pass faster and closer than if I'm in the travel lane. It's gotten so I ride in the spot where a car's right wheels pass through. In this position, it gives me the option of going right or left, and forces the cars to slow down and go wide around me. It works well for here.

That being said, there are not a lot of curves or hills around this area, hence hardly any blind spots. And most of those are on low volume roads. In Oklahoma, you can see things for miles down the road, if you are paying attention.

Would I ride the same in another city? Who knows? I would do what I deem safe. Whether I ride the shoulder, the travel lane, a bike lane, or 25' above the asphalt, I'll do whatever is safe. And in the end, isn't that the goal? To participate in the sport we enjoy, and do it in a manner that gets us home safe and sound? Common sense says that no matter where you ride, you are going to have accidents. You're going to hit a pothole at 25mph and have a flat. You're going to slip on a wet road. You're going to have unexpected things pop up in front of you. The only thing, in my mind at least, that will help is being alert, keeping your equipment in good condition, and being in enough physical condition to either lessen the impact or perhaps even avoid the problem in the first place. I know of no rider that has never crashed. It's a fact of life. But doing it in a manner that YOU consider safe is what matters.

And conditions change from day to day. Living in a college town, particularly one that goes a little bonkers on football game days, this is even more true. The population of Norman expands by almost 80,000 people on Saturdays during football season. You just have to be flexible with the traffic, watch out for the idiots, and stay safe.

Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened before. ;)

Of course, I could be wrong. It's happened before. ;)

Then welcome to A&S where everybody is wrong except HH - he knows everything, just ask him!

i've never heard of a college football arena that holds 80,000 people, but hey, i guess there might be one in Norman, OK.

you have some good advice, fiferguy, the bicyclist should ride where they feel most safe.

and i am stating that, on roads with wide, accomodating shoulders or safe and acceptable bike lanes, the default position for a rider on those roads will be in the accomodation and not in the travel lanes. its sound advice. it is legal. it is proper. and it is safe. this is not me spouting off and telling riders to ride in every shoulder or bike lane regardless of safety.

when there is an acceptable position to the right, you DON'T default to the travel lanes.

the shoulder in the middle picture, for example, was almost 3 times the width of the lanes. would I need to ride in the travel lanes there for maximium safety or would a sound and safe road position be in the shoulder?

If riders feel compelled by dogma to default ride in the travel lane in the middle picture, they have no clue on how to ride a bike safely.

I ride a trike so accidents involving gravel or other such substances are pretty rare. I have, however, had two crashes, both single bike crashes (i.e. no other people but me involved) and one of them was on the trike. I was fumbling with a panier while riding and when I turned back around I was headed straight up the edge of a driveway, which naturally caused me to flip and skid along on my side. I stayed seated, clipped in, and never touched the ground. Not even my white jeans got dirty.

If I were to do any touring I would definitely do it on a trike. A tandem trike would be the greatest way to tour with someone else, too.

But that's a digression.

Bek you have a point. You are trying to counter the argument that bike lanes are inherently so unsafe that you must always avoid them by default. You are NOT trying to counter the rational argument that unsafe conditions must be avoided. The problem is, those who are disagreeing with you pretty much can't tell that they are not refuting anything you are saying.

Part of my commute has a, ~4', paved shoulder. If I position myself there instead of the travel lane, I get closer and higher speed passing and it's my fault for inviting it by riding too far to the right.

Can you give an estimation, how many cars per minute do normally pass you on this road?

i've never heard of a college football arena that holds 80,000 people, but hey, i guess there might be one in Norman, OK.
Your credibility rating just sank to zero. If you haven't heard of these temples of glory and heartbreak you obviously don't know nuthin' 'bout what is really important do you?

Roar Lions, Roar! Win or lose, always Number One with me. Penn State has played 6 of their seven games this year in front of crowds of at least 80,000 people who have heard of such arena; 5 of them in front of crowds of over 100,000, plus national TV audiences for at least 3.

Chipcom might toss in a few comments about the Buckeye arena; and the Wolverine and Trojan faithful might also be glad to fill in the gap in your cultural education.

I stand corrected! I've actually been in the largest university football arena in the country. i was listening to Jeane Kirkpatrick? (the reagan era firebrand) address the crowd there once.... it holds 104, 000 people. wow.

however, WHAT, pray tell, does that have to do with bicycling EXCEPT that it cloggs towns with drunk football fans during the fall cycling season? what edifices to ritualized group combat.

i could care less what society at large wants to do with their free time, watching others exercise in big, overpromoted sports arenas at instututions for higher learning.....

I bet Maori tribesmen of New Guinea would also enjoy a large arena to play ritualized combat in.....

would a Maori tribeman or an Okie linebacker ride a bike in the shoulder or in the travel lanes of this road? i guess if the coach told the linebacker to ride in the travel lane he'd do it blindly...

isn't like, 60,000 about the max cap for college arenas? and what, pray tell, does that have to do with bicycling EXCEPT that it cloggs towns with drunk football fans during the fall cycling season? what edifices to ritualized group combat.

i could care less what society at large wants to do with their free time, watching others exercise in big, overpromoted sports arenas at instututions for higher learning.....

I bet Maori tribesmen of New Guinea would also enjoy a large arena to play ritualized combat in.....

would a Maori tribeman or an Okie linebacker ride a bike in the shoulder or in the travel lanes of this road? i guess if the coach told the linebacker to ride in the travel lane he'd do it blindly...
You continue to display your cultural ignorance, wear it like a badge of honor, and embarrass yourself with your silly stereotyping. Playing the fool is not good bicycle advocacy, even if your heart is pure as the driven snow.

i am stating that, on roads with wide, accomodating shoulders or safe and acceptable bike lanes, the default position for a rider on those roads will be in the accomodation and not in the travel lanes. its sound advice. it is legal. it is proper. and it is safe.

I agree with this, if we assume that "safe and acceptable" includes the condition that the pavement is free of sand, gravel, glass, potholes, parked cars, etc. If I see a long stretch of very wide paved shoulder or wide striped bike lane meeting these criteria, I use that pavement area by default.

However, less than 5% of my cycling miles have wide paved shoulders or bike lanes; of those, about a third are undesirable to me due to known problems with debris or parked cars, and another third are too close to junctions for me to ride that far right, or I am riding at the speed of other traffic where I don't want to ride that far right. That leaves about 1-2% of my cycling miles being on roads where I consider my "default" position to be right of a stripe on the road.

I think the main difference in our opinions is that I consider the lack of more "usable" miles of striped facilities in my city to be of no negative consequence for my safety and enjoyment as a cyclist.

-Steve Goodridge

ILTB, you don't think football would be considered by an anthropologist to be a form of ritualized combat? Because if you look at our society from the perspective of the study of humankind, football IS ritualized combat.

found some drivel to sink your teeth into, eh? don't like me making fun of spectator sports in this country? yeah, fat, drunk guys screaming at grown men tossing a ball around in an arena. sounds just great....yeah, let me spend a thousand bucks for season tickets to watch that crap. I wonder if football fans feel like they got a workout after watching their team....


but none of that has anything to do with riding safely on well accomodated roads, ILTB.

I think the main difference in our opinions is that I consider the lack of more "usable" striped facilities in my city to be of no negative consequence for my safety and enjoyment as a cyclist.

-Steve Goodridge


Stevie G, what makes you think that i feel lack of facilities makes me feel less safe? I ride unaccomodated roads of all stripes, buddy. you live in genteel appalachia, i live in a major metropolitian city.

and i am only stating what you have agreeded with me on, that If I see a long stretch of very wide paved shoulder or wide striped bike lane meeting these criteria, I use that pavement area by default. Glad to see a vehicular bicyclist admit that, when the shoulder or bike lane is safe for use, that's their default position. you should try Santa Barbara sometime, steve, it sounds like they have a LOT more bike lanes that are acceptable to ride in.

accoms work. they get more riders out biking. they encourage trips by bike by those that would otherwise not even consider it.

when there is a safe lane accomodation to the right of the main travel lanes, the vehicular cyclist will default position out of the travel lanes and DLLP FROM the accom.

but none of that has anything to do with riding safely on well accomodated roads, ILTB.
But making yourself appear to be a know nothing snob, spouting cultural stereotypes, has plenty to do with making your bicycle advocacy message appear to be just another rant from a disgruntled outcast from mainstream culture.

buahhahahaha......

what does football stadium capacities and ritualized combat have to do with bicycling again?

why do I even care? why do i care that ILTB's cultural ignorance doesn't recognize organized sports for what they are from an anthropological perspective? I guess if you're a football FAN, you can't handle the truth.....

where do the Sooners ride their bikes on this road? and what is the default position for vehicular bicyclists?

...and what is the default position for vehicular bicyclists?
I hazard to guess that there aren't a hundred people in the world (outside of Internet discussion list regulars) who care.

so, if you don't care, just stop posting. who cares in a bike forum that ILTB likes football and conder it sacrosanct? go post in a 'football fans suck on pigskin' forum, buddy....

I'm trying to counter the dangerous and faulty 'lane grab' default positioning 'advice' that gets bandied about in bike forums. and

I'd hazard a guess a LOT more than just 100 bicyclists look at bike forums.....

i've never heard of a college football arena that holds 80,000 people, but hey, i guess there might be one in Norman, OK.



You are joking aren't you? There MIGHT be one or two in the Big 10 that hold less than 80,000 but I'd bet against 2. The home fields of U.S.C. and U.C.L.A. both hold more than 80,000 as configured for games (E.g. blocking off bad seats). Most of the SEC fields hold more than 80,000.

Heck come to think of it there are a couple of big 10 teams whose AVERAGE attendance at home games is over 100,000 and I'd bet the majority of teams in hte Big 10 average over 80,000 in attendance.

I would be very surprised if any of the BCS conferences don;t ahve at least one school with a field that holds over 80,000.

People who beleive into 'inattentional blindness' are totally naive. Only complete idiot would admit that he saw what he hit before the fatal accident.

If he admits that he wanted to teach moron a lesson: first degree murder.
If he admits that he saw it, but did not estimate speed/distance right: second degree murder.
If he lies that he did not see anything: accident. Inattentional blindness.

Anyone who would believe that there are people in your first class in any numbers who still rides is an idiot. Anyone who believes that someone would get convicted of second degree murder for failing to estimate distance corrcctly is totally ignorant of the legal definition of murder.

yeah, fat, drunk guys screaming at grown men tossing a ball around in an arena. sounds just great....yeah, let me spend a thousand bucks for season tickets to watch that crap. I wonder if football fans feel like they got a workout after watching their team....

:roflmao: :lol: :roflmao: :lol:

Friggin hilarious Bek!!!!

Not sure about the fans but the stadium plumbing gets a workout....

And the players wear tight pants too.......(do football fans have latent homosexual tendencies???)

People who beleive into 'inattentional blindness' are totally naive. Only complete idiot would admit that he saw what he hit before the fatal accident.

If he admits that he wanted to teach moron a lesson: first degree murder.
If he admits that he saw it, but did not estimate speed/distance right: second degree murder.
If he lies that he did not see anything: accident. Inattentional blindness.
Don't you think the studies that prove the existence and widespread prevalence of inattentional blindness in all kinds of contexts have accounted for that? Or do you think you're smarter than the scientists behind the thousands of studies done on this topic?

what's wrong with crashing, commuterrun?
I learned the answer to that question when I was about 8 years old, I think.


Crashing hurts.
Crashing damages your bike.


So, I adopted behaviors that prevented me from crashing (only exceptions in the last 35+ years were a couple of times when getting accustomed to new pedal systems and a couple of inconsequential falls while mountain biking).

Chipcom might toss in a few comments about the Buckeye arena; and the Wolverine and Trojan faithful might also be glad to fill in the gap in your cultural education.

Seems the Lions ain't doing a lot of roaring this year, :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:


but yeah, the Horseshoe has 100,000+ capacity I believe.

Isn't the Big House at Michigan listed at 107,501 capacity? Now that's big...

Stevie G, what makes you think that i feel lack of facilities makes me feel less safe? I ride unaccomodated roads of all stripes, buddy. you live in genteel appalachia, i live in a major metropolitian city.

Cary, NC has a population of around 120,000 people. It borders Raleigh, NC, to which I used to commute by bike, population 350,000 people. The population of Wake County is nearly a million people. The topography is fairly flat, particularly on the arterial roads. We are about two hours' drive from the beach and three to four hours east of the mountains.

If you don't feel that striping improves your safety, then why perpetuate the myth to novice cyclists by using segregation striping to encourage their cycling? I prefer to teach and encourage novices to ride safely and confidently on unsegregated roads, so they can go anywhere that they want, without cluttering the cycling environment with useless segregation markings that mislead the public about cycling safety and proper positioning based on traffic and roadside conditions.

Don't you think the studies that prove the existence and widespread prevalence of inattentional blindness in all kinds of contexts have accounted for that? Or do you think you're smarter than the scientists behind the thousands of studies done on this topic?
There is no doubt that inattentional blindness does exist. Even though there were much fewer studies than thousands.

There is no evidence that inattentional blindness is any significant cause of road accidents.

Even if one puts the inattentional blindness argument aside, its still great riding in the intended travel path of a driver as it results in forced attention and clear response if they see you. Nice to get that little leftward movement from approaching drivers, or even commonly a lane change if on a multilane road. And if not, just move right.

Al

Isn't the Big House at Michigan listed at 107,501 capacity? Now that's big...
Attendence at Beaver Stadium at Penn State last week for the Michigan game was 110,007, another typical sellout. Though most would have been happier with a different outcome, a great time had by all at a festive occasion. Too bad some cultural drop-outs don't get it.

Ever try doing 40 downhill on gravel, commuterun?
Although I have done over 40 down hill, can't say that I ever tried it on gravel. I know enough about cycling to know that could lead to a crash.

the default position for a bicyclist on a well accomodated roadway is using that road correctly, following the law, the roadway stripes, and using the accomodation in the manner the road has been designed.
This describes cycling in the motor vehicle lane to a "T" under state law in Florida. It also assumes that the road and adjacent bike lane was designed by someone competent. Not always the case with BLs.

so yes, boys, when you need to leave an acocmmodation because the accom becomes less than acceptable OR you have to make a left turn, then you lateral out leave the accomodation. i bet even san diego has classes on how to use roads and striped lanes effectively.
Gee, does this mean cycling really is situational and dynamic and that there is no one, constant, safe lane position?

Then welcome to A&S where everybody is wrong except HH - he knows everything, just ask him!
Beg to differ, Chip. There's also Bek and Dianne who are different peas in the same pod.