Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - Are online parts really a taboo for LBS?

Again, I upsetted another LBS guy today. This is the second time such thing happens, in two
different LBSs. I had a dawes lightning sports and wanna fix it. I got a set of Mavic/Formula
from bicyclewheels.com, sugino RD 165cm crank from sheldon brown, soma cogs and lockring
from nashbar. I naively went to an LBS for help simply because I don't have a crank puller and
maybe his professionality can help me figure out how to optimize the chainline. I mean I
am planning to pay for the labor, advices and additional parts if needed. So I am gonna copy
the conversation verbatim between me and the LBS guy (who is the only employee in that LBS, in fact, I
think he owns that shop) from the moment I walked into the shop:

me: Hey, how's going

LBS: what's up. (without looking at me)

me: I got some question. Recently I've been trying to convert my roadie to a fixie. I got some parts and I need some help.

LBS: where did you get the parts?

me: .....I got them online.

LBS: then why are you wasting my time here?

me: (embarrassed) but I don't have the tools

LBS: well I am sure that you don't. You can get the tools online and they would tell you how to use them.

me: so you are not gonna do it?

LBS: abso-fxxking-lutely not! First of all, your project is trying to take a good bike and convert it
to what it's not designed for.

me: all right, thanks.


Then I just left the shop. Why this guy was so agitated? Are all the LBS guys hating online parts? Maybe
I am missing something about how an LBS makes a living by ordering parts for customers. Anyone think that my request is humiliating their professionality, or just because of their self-protection?

guys a ****** who missed out on making some money. **** him.

LBS: where did you get the parts?

me: .....I got them online.

LBS: then why are you wasting my time here?

me: (embarrassed) but I don't have the tools



I think most shops see themsevles as more than just "the place where that special wrench-thingie lives".

I see your side, and his side. I've been on your side before, and didn't get it. Then I spent a lot of time at the LBS, and saw how a shop should be run, and what they value in a customer.

Not to sound rude, but bike co-ops were designed exactly for your needs, i.e. conversions and franken-bikes. Seek one out. The LBS is for buying parts, frames, and whole bicycles. They are much more than just a glorified tool box.

Why would they spend time on a guy who doesn't want to give them business, when a repeat customer could walk in the door any second? Same with a resaurant server. If you just want some fries, she might suggest take-out. Why waste a whole table for the guy who walks in with a boxed lunch?

guys a ****** who missed out on making some money. **** him.

You know this guy?

there is no reason for that ****. what shop is this?

It's a sign of the times. The bike shops have got to learn to live with the internet. I have a buddy that owns a 4th generation family tire shop and he's pissed because customers buy tires online and then bring them to him to install. He told me that, "Hell, my customers can buy tires online cheaper that I can from my distributer!"

The problem is, it's messing up a decades old revenue model and they haven't exactly figured out how or if they can live (and make a living) with it.

I think most shops see themsevles as more than just "the place where that special wrench-thingie lives".


So from the moment I purchased the first part online for my project, I actually doom to do the
whole thing on my own without a qualification to get well-earned input from professionals? (given that there're no co-ops available)

Those of you ever bought parts online had similar experience?

You know this guy?

sorry. guy ACTED like a ****** and lost money. **** him.

not every city has bike co-ops, and LBSs should realize that they gain customers and business by treating people well and doing wrench work on bikes regardless of where parts are purchased. that is part of building a relationship. if they don't, they lose business and they deserve to.

there is no reason for that ****. what shop is this?

Except for the reasons I listed. Ever try to run a business, people?

Bike co-ops are there for the express purpose of providing services to those who can't afford it.

Ever try taking you car to the dealership with a bunch of parts in the trunk so that they could just work on it for you? That's not how it works. Ordering parts is a part of the bottom line. They may cite liability if you ask...but unless you know the owner/service people, expect a businessman to decide if you are the kind of customer he wants to fool with. Simple as that.

Whet makes you think you have priveledges at someones private place of business. That's why I like appointments. Let's assess one another before we get ourselves any deeper into this deal. But no...we want it NOW. Instant service. Point and click.

Whiney voice " I'm here, a perfectly good customer that doesn't want you to see you profit from this deal...and I want my toys delivered yesterday!." Please. Give me a break.

Over there is Ace Hardware...over there is the bike co-op...over there is a dude working out of his apt.

Make the informed choice, and get over your spoiled selves.

sorry. guy ACTED like a ****** and lost money. **** him.

not every city has bike co-ops, and LBSs should realize that they gain customers and business by treating people well and doing wrench work on bikes regardless of where parts are purchased. that is part of building a relationship. if they don't, they lose business and they deserve to.


I guess my request is too small to be considered as business by him :rolleyes:

So from the moment I purchased the first part online for my project, I actually doom to do the
whole thing on my own without a qualification to get well-earned input from professionals? (given that there're no co-ops available)

Those of you ever bought parts online had similar experience?

Yes. I have had this experience. That's where I'm coming from. I was just like you...then I saw the other guy's perspective.

LBS's that have been open for 20+ years aren't going to change overnight. Don't expect them to.

It's been said, but striking up a relationship first, then bringing up the project works wonders. Especially if there's beer and/or lunch involved. Give and ye shall recieve...

I guess my request is too small to be considered as business by him :rolleyes:

Imagine this:

You walk in unannounced at 2:05. He got a call from a racer at 2:00 needing his CX bike overhauled. The racer will be in at 4:00, but needs his bike the next day.

Your job will earn im $60. Maybe. The other job will earn him $200-300. More later when he drops $1000+ on that new CX bike coming in. "Gotta have a backup bike when you're racing"...Get my drift?

Business, nothing personal. Unless you slept with his wife. Then it may be personal.

Except for the reasons I listed. Ever try to run a business, people?

Bike co-ops are there for the express purpose of providing services to those who can't afford it.

Ever try taking you car to the dealership with a bunch of parts in the trunk so that they could just work on it for you? That's not how it works. Ordering parts is a part of the bottom line. They may cite liability if you ask...but unless you know the owner/service people, expect a businessman to decide if you are the kind of customer he wants to fool with. Simple as that.

Whet makes you think you have priveledges at someones private place of business. That's why I like appointments. Let's assess one another before we get ourselves any deeper into this deal. But no...we want it NOW. Instant service. Point and click.

Whiney voice " I'm here, a perfectly good customer that doesn't want you to see you profit from this deal...and I want my toys delivered yesterday!." Please. Give me a break.

Over there is Ace Hardware...over there is the bike co-op...over there is a dude working out of his apt.

Make the informed choice, and get over your spoiled selves.

a) most cities don't have bike co-ops. this shouldn't be hard to understand
b) bike shops don't do wrench work for free last time i checked
c) paying someone to work on your bike doesn't really seem like a privilege to me
d) bike shop employees often need to get over their own sense of self-importance.
e) while i can understand a bike shops frustration with stuff like this, i still don't think it's reason to act like a total ass
f) all acting like this does is ensure that the shop doesn't get any money from the potential customer

Imagine this:

You walk in unannounced at 2:05. He got a call from a racer at 2:00 needing his CX bike overhauled. The racer will be in at 4:00, but needs his bike the next day.

Your job will earn im $60. Maybe. The other job will earn him $200-300.

Business, nothing personal. Unless you slept with his wife. Then it may be personal.

i'm sure this was the case

Yes. I have had this experience. That's where I'm coming from. I was just like you...then I saw the other guy's perspective.

LBS's that have been open for 20+ years aren't going to change overnight. Don't expect them to.

It's been said, but striking up a relationship first, then bringing up the project works wonders. Especially if there's beer and/or lunch involved. Give and ye shall recieve...

I guess I've learned a lesson here: the way they treated me is a direct result based on the balance between time and profit potential. I will just go ahead and order a crank puller from nashbar. seems that's all I need at this moment. let the LBS do their big projects.

Imagine this:

You walk in unannounced at 2:05. He got a call from a racer at 2:00 needing his CX bike overhauled. The racer will be in at 4:00, but needs his bike the next day.


Isn't it a slightly different scenario? I didn't even mention when I wanted it to be done.

and on the flipside - should we expect shops to treat us like **** when we purchase components and tools from them and then do our own wrenching and deprive them of the money they'd make on labor?

and on the flipside - should we expect shops to treat us like **** when we purchase components and tools from them and then do our own wrenching and deprive them of the money they'd make on labor?


I think most LBSs assume that you come to their shops for their better and richer knowledge, and that knowledge includes what they can get for you and how to put them on.

If what you say went down actually went down, then that guy wasn't being very nice. Maybe he had a crappy day, or maybe he's just a dick. The fact of the matter is, he shouldn't have been so mean unless there's something you're not telling us.

I'm curious. Where do you live?

i operate on a very simple level with shops. i'll give you a couple tries, but if you act like an ass you lose my business. using this tried and true method i've narrowed NYC vast shop selection down to 3 or 4 shops i regularly deal with. works for me.

If what you say went down actually went down, then that guy wasn't being very nice. Maybe he had a crappy day, or maybe he's just a dick. The fact of the matter is, he shouldn't have been so mean unless there's something you're not telling us.

I'm curious. Where do you live?

I swear that I have put every single word from the beginning till the end of my dismayed conversation with him. He always acts like a jerk. I knew that. But I do not have anything to do with him personally. Only from experience he treated others. But I thought jerk is not equal to dick. Seems now I have to redefine jerk in my understanding.

I live in urbana, IL.

Also, maybe the LBS owner was salty for another reason as well. Maybe he is also against modding the bikes out of what they were designed for. Not unlike a Honda dealership not willing to take modded Hondas in for service. Some don't want to touch the project for warranty, liability, or other reasons.

Imagine this conversation:
Rider: "You converted my bike a week ago. My chain dropped and I flipped and broke some teeth. I think it's your fault."

It clearly isn't the LBS fault. But, no LBS wants to be in that situation.

He didn't have to be a dick about it though.

Also, maybe the LBS owner was salty for another reason as well. Maybe he is also against modding the bikes out of what they were designed for. Not unlike a Honda dealership not willing to take modded Hondas in for service. Some don't want to touch the project for warranty, liability, or other reasons.

Imagine this conversation:
Rider: "You converted my bike a week ago. My chain dropped and I flipped and broke some teeth. I think it's your fault."

It clearly isn't the LBS fault. But, no LBS wants to be in that situation.

He can talk about the liability issue nicely with me then.

True.

He didn't have to be a dick about it though.

This is true.

However, in a world controlled by men, I find dicks to be an expectation - not an exception.

basically i dont give a **** when it comes to **** like this

if X shop has Y part for less than Z, i'll buy it

i dont really expect a shop to be "nice" to me, sure its nice, but i'm not in there for friends most of the time. i go in, get what i need, go on my way.

once i went into a local shop when i first moved here, introduced myself, tried to start a conversation, and was directed to a different part of the shop where more parts were. fine, we dont gotta be friends. later i went in for a part that disapeared from my hub, dude found, installed, and chatted up wheel options the whole time. great, next time i need a small part, i'll head there.

but people being straight up dicks or denying service? thats not good business (cause you know, thats what the B stands for in LBS). as a whole they really do need to get their heads out of their asses and realize that they make more money wrenching online buyers bikes than they do alienating them

and you say this guy is the sole employee and probably owner? i wouldnt go back, i would tell others to avoid it

edit: x y z applies to online too. i dont exactly have the cash to be "supporting local businesses", which is kind of a joke in itself, cause i mean its not like these local businesses produce anything other than labor, they all (i am sure there are a few exceptions) just resell imported goods.

i'm gonna be buying a new front wheel soon. should i go with $100 ultegra/open pro online? or 140(+?) hand built surly/open pro?

$100, if the wheels not perfectly trued i can go to a bike shop and have them take a look and still come out ahead financially. and thats good for the business of me

All I can say to this is that my LBS seems quite happy to do very small jobs, as well as large. I take them in a wheel, and ask them to pull the freewheel - they do it. They were also willing to install a headset for me that I bought online. Of course, I have to wait my turn - if they're real busy, it might take a day or two, but any time their workshop staff are idle, they're losing money. The smart thing to do, business wise, is to give them something to do which pays. Sure, they'd like it even more if I bought the headset there, but even if I didn't, the staff are an overhead they still have to pay for.

My LBS Is happy to charge me to install parts I've bought online. I'm sure they would also be happy to sell me the parts, but they make a lot more on labor than parts, and they know they can't always compete with online prices. I usually give them a shot. Like with my headset. I asked them for a price, and they wanted $50 for a headest. I got a nicer one online for $20, and paid them to install it. they made more off the instalation than they would have off the headset.

They know I'm a cheap bastard. I'm not likely to be buying a $3000 bike any time soon, but I buy lots of small parts,and they are always happy to take my money when I offer it up in one and 2 digit increments.

It is strange time now-a-days. Our LBS has now said they will match any price on the net as long as it isnt below cost to them.

I noticed in my other interests this is coming up also. Dance shops will no longer let you try on tap or pointe shoes for free. If you intend to buy online it cost about 5-10 dollars to try on shoes. Strange.

Well, the nice thing about the int3rn3tz is that you can post anon reviews of your specific LBS, and tell the world how much of an asshat this person is. Just make sure it's done anon.

LBS: what's up. (without looking at me)

Right there ^^ That's when you walk out and find another LBS.

Go to your LBS (local book shop) and get a book on fixing your bike. Bicycling makes a great one foe 25 USD. You can get a good intro tool kit that can do anything you need for under 100 USD on-line. I buy bikes from my LBS (or frames). If I'm building something, I want to be the one who puts it together. Also, if I can ge the same part for less money... I'm down.

maybe you smell bad?

My LBS Is happy to charge me to install parts I've bought online. I'm sure they would also be happy to sell me the parts, but they make a lot more on labor than parts, and they know they can't always compete with online prices. I usually give them a shot. Like with my headset. I asked them for a price, and they wanted $50 for a headest. I got a nicer one online for $20, and paid them to install it. they made more off the instalation than they would have off the headset.

They know I'm a cheap bastard. I'm not likely to be buying a $3000 bike any time soon, but I buy lots of small parts,and they are always happy to take my money when I offer it up in one and 2 digit increments.

Yep. That's the kind of relationship I have with my LBS.

I can understand the impulse to be a bit nasty about it, though I agree that they likely missed an opportunity to build a customer. The shops I frequent will install parts for you, but it can be a tightrope. The OP was probably well intentioned, but there are a lot of folks that go into a shop, ask lots of questions about installation, parts, advice, etc. and then go buy them on-line. Then they offer $5 to borrow a crank puller. I have also known people to complain to the shop that installed their internet purchased parts when they fail (expect the shop to take care of warranty stuff, etc.).

If you establish a relationship with a shop (give them first crack on prices, etc.), they will likely understand that you are low on funds and not really hold it against you if the mail order stuff has prices they can't match.

I think what we're needing to focus on here is: Is the person in question attempting to strictly get information for free and never establish a relationship with the bike shop and its employee(s)? I've gotten the "no, just browsing" attitude from few people, but it's usually repeat shop visitors who come in, look around for upwards of half to a full hour, don't buy anything, and then come back mysteriously owning something we either have in stock or could get within a few days, asking us to install it or see if it's been installed correctly (the worst).

Now, is it within our business model to give advice on something you could have potentially done incorrectly, assuming that you'll listen to everything I have to say and do it absolutely perfectly? Of course not. There's always a liability involved when a new cyclist comes in for information, buys the parts outside of our shop, and assumes that we can sit down with them for many minutes explaining the ins and outs of the product. That's the domain of manufactuers' FAQs and instruction manuals, not the LBS.

Fortunately most of our customers realize we have more experience than them (not always true) and can be a source for relevant information and quality, guaranteed work. If I lived in a hip urban center where oodles of young kids price shopped and bugged the hell out of me for information only to do the task incorrectly and come back expecting to pay a few bucks for my time and effort in straightening out the mess, I'd probably go crazy.

recently, i went to a bike shop in sf to get a headset.. while asking what the return policy was, the dude told me "you should really know what you're buying and how to install it before you come in here". .

so i went back to the bike co-op and told them and they told me never to go back there.

Bike shops don't make much profit on parts (usually about 10 - 15% once you take everything into account), whereas the profit margin should be much higher on labour (if their business model is any good), so it's a bit foolish of this guy to give you that attitude. Maybe his business model isn't quite right.

My local shop is chilled on this front. I phoned them up (so they had no idea who I was) to check how much it would cost to install a headset that I had already bought. No hassle - just gave me a quote.

More and More LBS are selling online.

Is Harris a LBS?

There is a balance between Online and LBS. Often the cost is not that great when considering shipping. My LBS has given me free used parts to keep a kids bike going.
My LBS is Smart. They discourage X mart crap They encourage folks who can't afford a new bike, especially a quality kids bike, to pick up an older model working quality bike at a Garage sale and they will tune it up and then sticker it with the LBS decal and offer Free tuneups. They keep folks away from Wall Mart Bikes and in their shop

I brought my Schwinn into my LBS (Trek & Specialized dealer) for some new headset spacers. They took my bike into the parking lot and drove over it several times with a large pick-up truck.

Just kidding.

My LBS is cool with my bikes and my online parts although much of the time I buy from them because I hat to wait for mail order. In return, they have cut me some great deals on parts and have given me plenty of free labour.

There's always a liability involved when a new cyclist comes in for information, buys the parts outside of our shop, and assumes that we can sit down with them for many minutes explaining the ins and outs of the product. That's the domain of manufactuers' FAQs and instruction manuals, not the LBS.

Fortunately most of our customers realize we have more experience than them (not always true) and can be a source for relevant information and quality, guaranteed work.

I came to that shop for his quality service and I am going to pay for it. That's for sure. I did not expect
any warranty about the parts that I bought from the LBS, as I understand the distinction between parts
problem and installation problems. I see the domain of an LBS is to provide their techniques in bike and
exchange that for money. Does that have to be buying parts for customer too?

My LBS is cool with my bikes and my online parts although much of the time I buy from them because I hat to wait for mail order. In return, they have cut me some great deals on parts and have given me plenty of free labour.
yeah that was the benefit back home, after awhile they started giving me regular discounts cause i was basically replacing every part on my bike through them

I dunno. I don't really buy parts online unless I'm sure that I know how to install them.

Buying parts online, and then going to a shop for help with them seems kind of jerky in my book. Kind of like buying groceries, and then walking into a restaurant asking for a recipe. Okay, horrible simile, but that's the vibe I get.

Just dont go into a shop, ask what all parts you need, what you need to do to fix a bike or whatever, leave, come back in a week or so with parts you bought online and have them installed. We'll still do the work, but won't think very highly of you.

Yeah, there are a lot of times online stores sell things a lot less than what the shops can get them for but thats the way things are rolling now.

Kind of like buying groceries, and then walking into a restaurant asking for a recipe. Okay, horrible simile, but that's the vibe I get.


To me, it seems more like buying groceries and then paying someone to cook you dinner.

I brought my ebay'ed roadie into the mechanic to price out new shifter and brake cables, handlebar, stem, etc. He told me the price and what parts I'd need so I went online to buy the parts, installed them and brought it back to him. He whistled appreciatively, adjusted the derailer cable tension, charged me $10 and that was that. No drama, no "f*ck off, you're taking my business away."

I brought my car to a garage to have the new tires I bought online installed. They said, "OK", took off the old ones, put on the new ones, charged me a few bucks and sent me on my way.

Both shops realize that customers are always looking to save money and if they can do it online, they will. They also realize they can still make money doing the installation and labor and it's better than going out of business. The ones who don't realize that probably won't be in business much longer.

BTW, my LBS gets a lot of repeat business from me for stuff that doesn't make sense to buy online.

I've never purchased parts online. The only things I've purchased from an online bike store was sunglasses and a t-shirt. All parts are purchased through an LBS near work as I get the best price and more importantly the BEST service around! Doesn't matter if it's my fixed folder or my fixed conversion, John (the owner) will get me back on the road. When I first converted my bike to fixed I was looking for bar end brake levers to put on some chopped and flipped drops. He told me not to buy new ones because a tri-racer he wrenches for (perhaps also sponsors) was getting new ones from another sponsor and he could probably get the guy to sell me his old ones for cheap. Plus, last Friday he also gave my bike a quick tuneup, truing my rear wheel, adjusting my headset and pedals plus a lot more when I only came in (less than an hour before closing) to have my BB shell rethreaded and get a new BB installed.

I'm sure if I were to order parts online or bring in parts that I didn't buy from him, he'd still work on my bike. In doing that he can pretty much guarantee that I or anyone else for that matter will pass by in the future with cash in hand.

I like my LBS's solution to the problem: their labour rate is marginally higher if you bring in your own parts. ie, a wheel build with your rims and hubs costs $30/wheel while a build with their rims and hubs costs $25/wheel. They're probably not making much more than a $10 mark up on a set of rims anyway, so they're happy either way.

That said, my LBS is far more oriented towards service than it is to sales.

m.

guys a ****** who missed out on making some money. **** him.
Couldn't have said it better myself.