Touring - V brakes with Ultegra brifters?

These subforums can be difficult to negotiate sometimes... I want to use my Cross Check for year-round Commuting, Long Distance Riding (metric double centuries), Touring (fully loaded - ~300lbs total load incl rider), a Triathlon or 2 (I'm not competitive), might convert it to Single/Fixed eventually, or maybe somewhere sometime some Cyclo-cross... so where do I post this question? I tried over on General but didn't get any bites.

Anyway here's my question - you already know what I want to use it for - which brakes should I be looking for? My LBS have offered a reasonable deal on building up with an Ultegra groupset, it seems much better value than the other options.

I'm wondering if I go for the Ultegra set do I need to stick with cantilever brakes? Is it possible to go with V-brakes and Ultregra brifters? If I did want to go the V-brake route, what do I need to consider? If it's the brake lever pull then I believe SRAM Force brifters are compatible, but is Force even available yet? How long a wait to get my hands on that groupset, and what price compared to Ultegra?

Or is canti sufficient for my needs?

These subforums can be difficult to negotiate sometimes... I want to use my Cross Check for year-round Commuting, Long Distance Riding (metric double centuries), Touring (fully loaded - ~300lbs total load incl rider), a Triathlon or 2 (I'm not competitive), might convert it to Single/Fixed eventually, or maybe somewhere sometime some Cyclo-cross... so where do I post this question? I tried over on General but didn't get any bites.

Anyway here's my question - you already know what I want to use it for - which brakes should I be looking for? My LBS have offered a reasonable deal on building up with an Ultegra groupset, it seems much better value than the other options.

I'm wondering if I go for the Ultegra set do I need to stick with cantilever brakes? Is it possible to go with V-brakes and Ultregra brifters? If I did want to go the V-brake route, what do I need to consider? If it's the brake lever pull then I believe SRAM Force brifters are compatible, but is Force even available yet? How long a wait to get my hands on that groupset, and what price compared to Ultegra?

Or is canti sufficient for my needs?

If you want to run v-brakes with brifters (I hate that name by the way :p ) you'll have to use travel agents to take up the extra cable travel. I'm not a big fan of them because they look horrible and, from my one experience with them, work horrible but other people have had luck with them.

Cantis will work just as well however. I have them on my touring bike and have never had a problem with stopping power even on fast mountain downhills while loaded. I'd stay away from the Avid Shorty's however. They work well but the squeal like a stuck pig every time you use them. Very annoying.

SRAM Rival and Force brifters are compatible--box-stock, no adaptors--with Avid cantis and even Avid disk brakes. There's a page on the Rival/Force web site (darned Flash sites!)--the installation manual or something like that--that has the compatibility info. That's what has me looking at them. I'm not sure about which frameset I'll ulimately like. I want one grouppo I can move to any frame, regardless of brake styles.

Pricing on the whole grouppos is hard to find. http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CCY?PAGE=BUY_GRUPPO is the only place I've found with quick, easy comparsion pricing on full grouppos. All the others make you figure it out for yourself bit-by-bit.

Yeah tsl, I was thinking about SRAM for exactly that reason. BruceW put me onto them as a possibility. I like the idea of being able to go disc too :)

I hate flash sites at least as much as cyccommute hates the word "brifters" :)

Ok, from the looks of that site, SRAM Rival is near the same price point as Ultegra... that could be what I'm looking for.

Hi,

I wanted to use V-Brakes, and have worked with them for months. I finally have them adjusted so that they would work well for loaded touring. But I have to tell you that it was a struggle. I had to rerun my brake houseing routing more than once, which meant removing & reinstalling the tape. By the way, the best thing I learned was how to install the brake retaining loop, fix it in place, then put on the handlegar tape, then install the brake mechanism. I also ran low compression housing. I am not sure if I would go through the trouble again. But I do have to say that replacing the brake pads is very easy, and after I got everything set up they worked very well. Before that they hardly stopped the bike at all!!!!

Tom

The big advantage to V-brakes is that they have better stopping power. But by the time the cable pull is geared to the road levers that's not likely tto be any better than cantis. There are efficiency losses to the travel agents, and once the ratio is changed so that you move more cable for a given lever movement, you loose mechanical advantage, just like a high gear on your bike.

So the decision to use cantis vs., Vs then comes down to the other characteristics of each particular style of brake. Cantis are generally better suited to long range, off the reservation touring because they are less difficult to adjust, and they deal with wheel wobbles and such better. I think Vs with 287 road levers are a good choice since one maintains the power the brake is known for, but I don't seen any real advantage to the Brifter V set-up.

If you get cantis just, be sure to chose the right one for the fork, rim, etc... angles you are going to have with your particular bike. Just because it's a good canti or works well with a given lever, or that someone here made it work on their particular combination of components, does not mean that it will work with the frame wheel combo you have. It shames me, but I think this is one part that it's worth getting the tech at a bike shop to fit. If you order it from Nashbar, or whatever, you really only have yourself to blame if the brake isn't fully functional out on the road. If you get a tech to do it, getting it right is the shop's problem. It's not a mater of whether one can do it' it's mater of how many times one needs to dip into one's own pocket. Right now I'm on set four.

One of the propaganda issues with cantis, Sheldons site for instance, is that people will infer that the braking power back in the 80s was better (that's how I remember it), They blame it on aero cantis, and they recommend old stock shimanos or Paul neo retros (if you can get them to fit with racks and shoes). I went down this path with my bike, and jumped right into the retro canti kool-aid. I tried old brakes, from my stock, and I tried Paul's, I think that the fork style on my bike needs one of the new low profile cantis to brake properly (heel or bag clearance isn't the problem), so that is what I am shooting for now. Waiting for the parcel in the mail.

So in sumary:

V brakes: won't be powerful with brifter, are hard to tune, and require tight wheel tolerances.

Cantis: may be the better overall choice, however they need to be examined for specific brake, fork, and wheel combo.

you can run TEKTRO BMX Mini V's on road pull brifters. otherwise its cantis. or the travel agents to adjust the pull.

SRAM road gruppo brifters are NOT V-brake compatable, the pull is for road caliper brakes. the price on the SRAM gruppos is comprable to the Ultegra/DA price points.

Diacompe 287Vs and barend shifters would be my choice if i were set on V brakes. i have this setup on one of my touring bikes and it is absoultely solid.

1) Stuart is now condemned to always type "integrated brake and shift levers" every time he refers to what the rest of us call "brifters".

2) Some people find V brakes easier to adjust, some cantis. I find cantis to be less hassle

3) Avid Shorties do not squeal if they are adjusted correctly

4) Both cantis and V brakes will have adequate stopping power =if= they are set up correctly.

Halfspeed with your background you should have got this right the first time:

He will be condemed to type: "integrated brake and shift levers ("brifters")". Otherwise how will anyone know what he is talking about.

OK, sorry all around.

What about long reach side pulls, like Kogswell etc...

Diacompe 287Vs and barend shifters would be my choice if i were set on V brakes. i have this setup on one of my touring bikes and it is absoultely solid.

+1. This setup also has the benefit of being less expensive than integrated brake/shifters, works with more equipment (since the bar-ends can always be set to friction mode), and is easier to repair/adjust/maintain, which could be important depending on the sort of touring you plan to do. I've never used the integrated brake/shifters myself, so I acknowledge that I don't know what I'm missing, but it took me all of maybe 5 minutes to acclimate to bar-end shifters from a flat bar setup.

Interesting points on the barends, I'll look more into that option.

I was in another LBS asking about SRAM Rival, I'll see what the guy can dig up for me on that front. He reckoned Ultegra dual-pivot brakes should have plenty enough stopping power, the only question would be clearance issues, which looked tight given that I looked at it with roadie tires there. Fenders and fatties, no chance.

A really good point he made was that the new Trek Portland is Ultegra equipped with disc brakes, can anyone tell me more about how this bike is set up? Anyone have pictures? I'll have a look and see how Trek have done it.

portland uses the one Avid mechanical road disc that pull on a road brake ratio.

they won't pull linear- ratioed disc systems. for that you'd need 287Vs or flat bar V brake levers..

To summarize and add to these posts:

1. Shimano Ultegra "brifters" will not work with V-brakes without a travel agent adapter. Neither will SRAM's new "brifters".

2. Canti-lever brakes will work with Shimano & SRAM brifters with no adapter needed and adequate stopping power. I'm not sure what one post meant by matching the canti brake type with the frame and wheels you are using. If you are using the correct wheel size for the frame's purpose (ie, 26" wheel for an MTB, 700c wheel for a road, cyclocross, etc), about any canti brake model will work, assuming the manufacturer welded the brake studs in the correct place. I've used a variety of canti brakes on a variety of frames and wheels. Canti's have a lot of adjustability so you can almost always make it work.

3. Cantis vs. vbrakes. Canti brakes have good stopping power; v-brakes have better stopping power. Older cantis had pads that were difficult to adjust, but newer cantis like the tektros use the same pad system as most v-brakes, so pad alignment is far easier on cantis that use v-brake type pads. Trying to match v-brakes with shimano or SRAM brifters will make setup and adjustment more complicated because you will need to use a travel agent adapter. I would tend to avoid the adapters and just go with cantis.

4. Disc brakes: Only AVIDs road version of the mechanical disc brakes will work with shimano or sram brifters. And even then, some people like to use a travel agent adapter for better pad-rotor clearance and better braking power with the brifter and road-disc brake combination. I've used Avids road disc brakes with non-brifter brake levers, and no adapter, and I will say that there are a lot of adjustment hassles. The levers will pull a long way to get decent braking power, and that is with the pads adjusted very close to the rotor, so that you could get some annoying rotor rub issues. A brifter with a travel agent with AVIDs mtb version of the mechanical disc brake might work, but with the same finnicky adjustment issues. Also, disc brakes are heavier than v or canti brakes. Those calipers are not light, and the rotors add some weight too (as well as beefier disc hubs).

5. The TREK Portland: Bike lust. OK, I haven't ridden this bike, but it looks to me like Trek got it right. They use Avid mechanical disc brakes with brifters (and no adapters), but the beauty of Trek's design is that they put the disc brake between the seatstay and chainstay, not on the top/back of the seat stay. So there are no complications or hassles with installing any rack you want. This would be one versatile disc-equipped ride!

6. Brifters vs bar-ends: I like the bar-ends. Cheaper initially, less complicated, lighter, and will outlast the brifters. They won't let you down, and even if they do, you can always switch them to friction mode and still have all your gears. Bar-ends let you trim the front derailleur for chain rub (although Shimano's new brifters are getting better at that, they still aren't as good as a friction shifter for the front derailleur IMO.) Downside to bar-ends is that you have to move your hands away from the brakes to shift, and some people don't like that. Doesn't bother me; actually moving your hands around reduces numbness.

Rich

you can run TEKTRO BMX Mini V's on road pull brifters.

Second this. Works like a champ on my tandem with Tiagra.

I forgot to add that I am running Diacompe 287Vs and barend shifters.
http://users.techline.com/tomn/biketomsbeforetour.jpg

Yeah tsl, I was thinking about SRAM for exactly that reason. BruceW put me onto them as a possibility. I like the idea of being able to go disc too :)

I hate flash sites at least as much as cyccommute hates the word "brifters" :)

Ok, from the looks of that site, SRAM Rival is near the same price point as Ultegra... that could be what I'm looking for.

Brifters is one of those aggravating words whose meaning keeps drifting. Back in olden times, brifters were a shorten term for bar end shifters because Suntour had a trade name on Barcon shifters. Then someone started using it for brake/shifters so there exists confusion about just what you are speaking...at least for some of us old people:D

1) Stuart is now condemned to always type "integrated brake and shift levers" every time he refers to what the rest of us call "brifters".

In actuality, they should be call Shimano Dual Control STI shifters but ... ow! I got a cramp in my hand :D


3) Avid Shorties do not squeal if they are adjusted correctly

My Shorties will not squeal for a while, if I put lots of toe on the pads but as the pads wear and conform to the wheel, eventually they will squeal again. I have old Shimano brakes on another bike that haven't squealed since I put them on.


4) Both cantis and V brakes will have adequate stopping power =if= they are set up correctly.

I fully agree!

Halfspeed with your background you should have got this right the first time:

He will be condemed to type: "integrated brake and shift levers ("brifters")". Otherwise how will anyone know what he is talking about.

OK, sorry all around.

:p

About Tektro mini-v brakes

They are not the best choice for a touring bike. The horizontal cable is so low that it clears only a 700x32 (maybe 700x35) tire without fenders or a 700x27-28 tire with very tight fenders. Quite limitative for a loaded touring bike.


About cantis vs v-brakes.

If you go for brifters, then stick with cantilever brakes, but then buy those that use threaded brake pads (i.e. the same brake pads that v-brakes use). With threaded pads, cantilever brakes are as easy to adjust as would be v-brakes. Also, the Kool Stop pads made with threaded posts are better than the Kool Stop pads made with smooth posts.


If you go for bar-end (or downtube) shifters, then you'll get independant brake levers. Then the choice is yours. When matched with adequate levers, the braking efficiency of v-brakes and cantilever brakes is fairly similar and depends mostly on good brake pads (esp. in the rain) and good cable runs.

I have a slight preference for v-brakes. Cleaner lines. Just one cable going down the frame to the brake, curving in and nicely tucked at the other end. No steel parts sticking out into your panniers or heels (rear wheel). But then, you need to like the 287-V levers. I like them, but some people with small hands find the reach a bit excessive, and you'll have to decide if you like the hoods; irrelevant for me, as I ride mostly on the drops, the rest of the time on the top.

Cantilever brakes may be a problem to adjust on a really small frame. I had problems trying to fit one on the rear end of our tandem (700c wheels, 18" stoker compartment), because there wasn't enough distance between the cable stop and brake for proper cable actuation. You also need two cable stops. And the rear brake may hit your panniers on a large frame... or your heels on a small frame.
But there are many advantages with cantis:
– They fit with any brake lever, from 10 $ up. If you don't like the shape of one set of levers, try another one.
– If you later decide to go with brifters, you already have adequate brakes and won't need to buy Travel Agents.
– The cable pull you get with cantis is compatible with auxiliary levers. If you think of installing those now or later, that's a nice consideration.

I'm not a big fan of them because they look horrible and, from my one experience with them, work horrible but other people have had luck with them.


C'mon! Ya hardly even notice them - especially if they're nearly covered up by racks!
And as for my experience, they work fine. Great modulation, and no adjustment issues.

You do have to make sure that the TA's are set too about "2 o'clock", and ummm non-braided cable IIRC.

Richbiker has it exactly right. But I'd like to add a few more points to consider - the shape of 287-V brake lever hoods is horrible. I also had problems reaching the brakes from the drops and I have large hands. And finally, there are some caliper brakes that are "long reach" - these will fit bigger tires than standard caliper brakes but you need a frame that was designed around them (like the Surly Pacer for instance).

My 2 cents - go with Ultegra STI and cantilevers if you like to ride on the hoods.

I forgot to add that I am running Diacompe 287Vs and barend shifters.
http://users.techline.com/tomn/biketomsbeforetour.jpg

Cool fenders tom

Are the Diacompe 287Vs aero levers?

Hey Tomn,

What an interesting "kickstand!" What is it?

http://users.techline.com/tomn/biketomsbeforetour.jpg[/QUOTE]

Hey Tomn,

What an interesting "kickstand!" What is it?

http://users.techline.com/tomn/biketomsbeforetour.jpg[/QUOTE]


That is a Click-Stand. It folds up to be about 10" when you don't need it. The one in the picture breaks into three parts because I have a longer rackbag, but typically they fold into four parts. If you look at the brake lever there is a bungee strap that holds the brake on, I use two for loaded bikes & just the rear if just out riding. They are included with the Click-Stand. It works really well. I am a bit proud of it because Click-Stand TM is my invention. I am making them in my basement, and will be selling them very soon. I own Click-Stand.com, but don't have the web site set up yet. I can show & tell you more if you would like.

I'm glad you think it is interesting, I hope others do too!
Tom

http://users.techline.com/tomn/click-standcloser.jpg
http://users.techline.com/tomn/click-standw:hand.jpg

Oh, I forgot, the fenders are made by a guy in Bend, Or. named Cody. He sells them on eBay, just look up wood or wooden fenders. His designs are quite something.

In actuality, they should be call Shimano Dual Control STI shifters but ... ow! I got a cramp in my hand :D


Not the same thing. That's a trademarked name for one company's implementation of the concept but "brifter" is generic so it also covers products from Campagnolo and SRAM.

If you don't like "brifter", you could always suggest something else.

Ok, so I called into my LBS who will be building it up for me. They suggest the Ultegra Shimano Dual Control STI shifters with Tektro Oryx brakes.

These brakes seem to get good reviews online, and Rivendell are putting them on the Atlantis, so they can't be all that bad!

http://rivendellbicycles.com/images/catpics/15-098.jpg

--

tomn: cool stand. Nevertheless, I'm a pedal->kerb fan and I don't trust any stand with a loaded bike, it's hard enough holding it up with my legs!

I've heard good things about the Tektro brakes on this site, a lot. That looks like it will be the winning geometry on my bike, due to the boss spacing.

The one thing i don't agree with in Rich's summary list is the one gets more power from Vs + agents. It's a wash in most cases. What are people finding?

I keep hearing the 287s have uncomfortable hoods. I just figure thats something one can alter by messing around with a custom grip for them. I'm going to give it a try anyway.

Tom, did you make the racks?

Stirgos? Or perhaps Ertis? I can see these type of shifters being competitive with Barbies (Barcons and thumbies)

Not the same thing. That's a trademarked name for one company's implementation of the concept but "brifter" is generic so it also covers products from Campagnolo and SRAM.

If you don't like "brifter", you could always suggest something else.

Shrakes?

Tom, did you make the racks?


No, the rear rack is a Tubus, and the front rack is a Nitto/Rivendell. Which I found here:

http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/baggage_racks/20075.html

I liked the front because it give you a top rack, though it is a little heavier because of that.

I got these in the end:
http://static.flickr.com/117/288590949_92a5c8e0c7.jpg

Here's my baby!
http://static.flickr.com/107/288591227_d3e1efb25a_b.jpg

More pics:
http://sportcrazy.net/cycling/bike-porn-my-new-surly-cross-check/

Complete component list detailing what and why:
http://sportcrazy.net/cycling/surly-cross-check-ultegra-10speed-component-list/

That is a Click-Stand. It folds up to be about 10" when you don't need it. The one in the picture breaks into three parts because I have a longer rackbag, but typically they fold into four parts. If you look at the brake lever there is a bungee strap that holds the brake on, I use two for loaded bikes & just the rear if just out riding. They are included with the Click-Stand. It works really well. I am a bit proud of it because Click-Stand TM is my invention. I am making them in my basement, and will be selling them very soon. I own Click-Stand.com, but don't have the web site set up yet. I can show & tell you more if you would like.

I'm glad you think it is interesting, I hope others do too!
Tom

You can sign me up for one of those kickstands Tom - nice invention! Will you offer anything to connect the collapsed stand to your frame? Please PM me if you have the chance. Thanks