Mountain Biking - suspension overkill

i have been noticing a trend in people buying bikes with way more suspension than they need with the type of riding they use them for. is this just another form of the "bigger is better" mentality, like people needing the biggest suv's just to get around town? or is it that people are expecting to be hitting bigger drops when they finally grow the balls to do so? my 3.5" rear suspension allows me to ride aggressively, dropping 3-4 feet at a time, while also allowing me to get up the hill efficiently. i have ridden with guys before who have 6 inches of rear travel and are hesitant to follow me down hill. props to those of you who use them for what they are intended for and go big. if you don't, is it really worth it to have a 40lb beast with 9" of travel to ride the local trails?

This is something that can be approached from about a million ways. I have a 6" travel bike, and I do hardcore riding on it but I am positive that some people could go alot bigger than me on the same bike. Some people dont deserve the bike they have, especially the trail rider on a long long travel bike. Some bikes now are long travel, are super light and really couldent be used for freeriding.....so now what are we going to say?

I agree..but for some it is a mental thing. Bigger travel makes them feel happier. I have no issues doign a drop on a ht (3 to 4 ft) but stick me on a 3.5" rear suspension and I would be scared to do anything. At my weight I would blow through that little sus in no time. I also don't see the point to small travel bikes, why not do a ht in that case. (a different approach).

I don't know too many guys with big travel bikes that don't use all of their travel so I can't really say but I do know what you mean. I go back to Ontario and see some kid riding an A-line around Guelph. What is up with that. The A-line is very specifically designed for dh and is heavy, can't be pedalled and is just plain a beast.

Anyways in the end I just let it go and watch people ride what they ride. Everyone needs a different comfort level for whatever they do. If they want to invest on a 9" inch travl bike for 4 ft drops so be it. Next year the bikes will be cheaper :)

If they want to invest on a 9" inch travl bike for 4 ft drops so be it. Next year the bikes will be cheaper

Exactly. This is why I'm tolerant of poseurs.

My 6" travel free ride bike weighs 30.5 lbs...I've gradually started ramping up and now huck 6 footers. I still ride it for XC too.

I started with a super light 3.75" XC Full Suspension bike and realized slowly over about a two year period that it was too light for the riding that I started to enjoy (light DH, hucking, freeriding, etc.)...

Some bikes now are long travel, are super light and really couldent be used for freeriding

true-- there are times while cross country riding when i sort of wish i could have a little more suspension but still have a light bike. i remember when full suspension meant you have to sacrifice efficiency on the uphill, but now it certainly isn't the case. also, there are some situations where i would feel more comfortable jumping on my old steel hardtail.




I also don't see the point to small travel bikes, why not do a ht in that case.

i think small travel bikes are great for cross country riding. i agree that a ht would do the trick, but my bike with 3.5" rear travel gets me down the hill and through super technical areas faster than my hardtail, and back up the hill at about the same speed as one. my arms, hands, and ass aren't all beat up after an epic ride.

i don't have any problem with people using these monsters to drop 2-3 foot drops, just wondering why they would want to.

Originally posted by gonesh9
i don't have any problem with people using these monsters to drop 2-3 foot drops, just wondering why they would want to.

Confidence. :) Oh and all show :)

All depends on where you're riding. If you're not sure, make sure you get something that's adjustable. I just bought my Haro with 5" suspension, and now wish it had less and was lighter, because I mainly do cross-country. I love it on rough downhill sections, but those sections are few and far between. I spend alot of time bouncing up and down when I try to get out of the saddle.

I think the POINT is to have more suspension than you need. If you had just enough all the time you wouldn't feel like you could go big. Nobody likes bottoming out!

Jim raises a good point. I think also, the different niche's of riding are ever changing. There was a time everyone thought a bike for what we call 'urban assault' today should have no shocks and slicks. Today they're about as beefy as DH bikes. Mountain biking in general is always changing. You look at forks and frames from but a few years ago and you see some pretty strange things.

I'm sure there is a trendiness factor too it though. Like the OnePointFive standard Manitou started a while back. People found that it was a fairly good idea, and looked kinda nifty too. Today we're seeing bikes with 1.5 head tubes that really shouldn't have them, XC bikes for example.

The fact is, companies will do whatever they think will make more people buy their bikes. Its a business after all.

maybe what is also happening is people are getting more interested in hucking off small cliffs than 4 hour rides. don't get me wrong, i love the adrenaline of being in the air, and admire those who go big, but it takes a lot of power also to ride hard for 4 hours on hilly, technical terrain.

what do people think regarding their geographical area? i'm sure that plays a big role in what people are riding. are there current trends in a certain style of riding? i know that in places like the north shore, freestyle is the core. here in oregon there seems to be a wide variety, from big downhill, to serious cross country. what is going on in the flatter areas, like the midwest?

Where I live I would say its definately more of a 'trendy bikes' case. Its a mesa were I live, so most everything is flat. And all you see are FS bikes, tripple crown forks, everything that makes you say, "Oooooo." If you travel a few minutes south you'll hit a big tourist trap. Its even worse there. I've had people laugh at my hardtail on the trail, as if I were riding some archaic piece of technology.

Originally posted by DiL
Jim raises a good point. I think also, the different niche's of riding are ever changing. There was a time everyone thought a bike for what we call 'urban assault' today should have no shocks and slicks. Today they're about as beefy as DH bikes. Mountain biking in general is always changing. You look at forks and frames from but a few years ago and you see some pretty strange things.



Most urban riders I know still use ht. Just slacker and more BMX style than trditional ht's. Unless they are doing massive stair gaps or bridge drops etc...



I'm sure there is a trendiness factor too it though. Like the OnePointFive standard Manitou started a while back. People found that it was a fairly good idea, and looked kinda nifty too. Today we're seeing bikes with 1.5 head tubes that really shouldn't have them, XC bikes for example.


Who makes a xc bike with a 1.5. I know of very few 1.5 bikes and all the ones that are are freeride bike and very beefy and strong.

Originally posted by gonesh9
what do people think regarding their geographical area? i'm sure that plays a big role in what people are riding. are there current trends in a certain style of riding? i know that in places like the north shore, freestyle is the core. here in oregon there seems to be a wide variety, from big downhill, to serious cross country. what is going on in the flatter areas, like the midwest?

I think that is a good point. In Seattle I find (from reading the boards and talking to visiting riders) that street is becoming huge. Same with the downtown core of Vancouver. Of course shore style freeriding is very popular as always as well. I think its funny how diverse the opinions change as you move east and or south. I can go to Ontario and some of my friends consider me a good freerider. Meanwhile what I do is pretty lame in comparrison to some of my west coast buds and I wouldn't call myself much more than xc.

Yeah, my dilemma right now is what exactly is going to be most practical for me. I have 2 cross country bikes (One is a full suspension with 4.5 inches of travel) and one hardtail. I use the hardtail alot to do urban assault, but I'm starting to think it doesn't have enough suspension travel and is far too rigid for the things I'm riding. So I can't decide whether to switch to a big hit full suspension or to buy a beefy hardtail with a big fork up front and some flat pedals. So far I'm leaning towards the hardtail, but the stair gaps are getting bigger and bigger... and I'm getting more and more bold. There's a specific bike for practically EVERY type of riding these days. Doesn't seem like you can just RIDE WHAT YOU BROUGHT!

On the topic of geography... around here there isn't any local freeriding or big hit stuff, so we're forced to ride the streets where there's TONS of crazy stuff to get into. If you've got the balls, you can pretty much go as big as you like. Which is another thing that's influencing my decision. As my skills get better and my balls larger, I'd like to have a bike that will take the abuse and handle what I can throw at it as opposed to having to buy a new bike.

Originally posted by Jim311
Doesn't seem like you can just RIDE WHAT YOU BROUGHT!


You can, you soooo can. The snow race got cancelled last weekend here and almost everybody met in town to ride. Trials bikes, cruisers, DH bikes, hardtail freeride bikes and FS freeride bikes....o yea and a few BMX bikes. It was pretty insane...

I've ridden them all over the years.

Give me suspension or give me death!

Unless I'm racing XC of course, but still give me suspension, just give me a lockout to go along with it. Light weight is mostly hype (been there too). There is a borderline on where weight makes a difference though, and to me it's about 34-36 lb's. Plus it makes a big difference where the weight is, as in evil rotating weight versus not-so-evil suspension weight.

Suspension, especially on modern bikes, is not a trend. It is a necessity in some riding conditions. Even more so after you get a few boo-boos nagging at you as you get older.

Light weight is mostly hype (been there too). There is a borderline on where weight makes a difference though, and to me it's about 34-36 lb's.

i'm not sure if i agree. a bike 10 lbs. lighter than that which can still handle a day of trail riding makes a huge difference. sure, if you are more interested in big drops more suspension is needed. i brought up the issue of geography in part because maybe it's that in a lot of places you don't have the climbing that i'm used to. most riding here requires climbing thousands of feet, and a 35 lb. bike takes it's toll. i'm not a weight freak or anything, but the 3 hours i spend climbing i want to be somewhat efficient, and for the 45 min. i spend coming back down i only need something that will smooth it all out.

It is definately a trade-off. On my 24 lb KHS I noticed some difference when doing alot of climbing, but not enough to offset the improved performance of suspension. I would even rather be climbing on my 40 lb Bullit in real steep rocky climbs. I have found that I can climb technical terrain better with this heavier bike since I get much better "bite" in loose rocks.

But I can think of a couple of sweet single track climbs in CO where a 10 lb bike would be nice :)

Overall though, even if you race, I think extremely light bikes are only going to take more cash out of your wallet.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Who makes a xc bike with a 1.5. I know of very few 1.5 bikes and all the ones that are are freeride bike and very beefy and strong.

I was thinking of the K2 Tirade when I said it, but I remebered thats a freeride too.

Originally posted by gonesh9

i think small travel bikes are great for cross country riding. i agree that a ht would do the trick, but my bike with 3.5" rear travel gets me down the hill and through super technical areas faster than my hardtail, and back up the hill at about the same speed as one. my arms, hands, and ass aren't all beat up after an epic ride.


Most of my riding is XC and I tend to like longer rides. A short-travel suspension bike is great for those epic rides. My definition of epic/long rides is 6 hours or more. Sure you can do them on hardtails. I used to do them on full rigids. But you just get less beat up over the course of the entire ride with a little bit of suspension. My current bike has 4-1/2" of travel although I really could probably get by with 3-1/2" (my front only has 3-1/2" of travel). The bike came with the shock and the shock travel came in at 4-1/2" so I didn't pick the bike for increased travel... it just turned out that way. Of course for many of you here, 4-1/2" of rear end travel is not considered an enormous amount of suspension.

Originally posted by gonesh9
i have been noticing a trend in people buying bikes with way more suspension than they need with the type of riding they use them for.

One of our neighbours just bought a dual suspension bike. He had a great hardtail bike before this.. but because the guy down the street got a dual suspension for North shore riding and it is a great bike,
this dope buys one.

What does he use for ? commuting to and from work. That's it. He has absolutely no intention of riding it off road. He just bought it because it was a better bike than the neighbour's. The neighbour he tried to outdo just keeps laughing everytime this idiot rides by him, bouncing around like a loaded spring.

Justen

Originally posted by Justen
this dope buys one.


Do you know what brand/model it is? I love laughing at posers:D http://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/Bizkit/sweat.gifhttp://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/Bizkit/sweat.gif

walmart sells a few 'neighbor impressing' dualies :P

I pitty the man who takes it off the pavement.

Hey now.

I ride an 03' BigHit ... but then again I also ride very aggressive, do drops 5ft plus without problems, and enjoy being able to "not pick a line" down some downhills. LOL


My bike comes in at 38.5LBS which is quite porky.. but I still trail ride it. I use my bike for Urban Assault missions AND trails. I use it for everything.... since I didn't have enough $$$ to buy several "one purpose bikes".

For trails.. it's not the quickest climber.. but who cares.. I still make it up the same damn hill the XC Lightweight freaks do... without putting a foot down.

It's all good. I DO NOT however support the posers who buy LT bikes for little tiny things, and just "XC trails" (not extreme ones). Those people make me angry. :crash:

Originally posted by KleinMp99
Do you know what brand/model it is? I love laughing at posers:D http://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/Bizkit/sweat.gifhttp://smilies.crowd9.com/contrib/Bizkit/sweat.gif

:-)
He is out washing it again now because he apparantly rolled through a mud puddle and got the chain and back wheel a "bit grubby".

Anyway, this is no walmart special. He paid $3,000 CDN for this baby.

It's a Brodie Devo or Diablo.

Justen

Originally posted by Justen
Anyway, this is no walmart special. He paid $3,000 CDN for this baby.

It's a Brodie Devo or Diablo.


And he doesn't take it offroad?!?! This is like all those people with SUVs who never take them offroad. It's borderline bike-neglect. Bicycle Protective Services should step in. Let him know that I am willing to offer up myself up to be a foster parent. :D

Originally posted by khuon
And he doesn't take it offroad?!?! This is like all those people with SUVs who never take them offroad. It's borderline bike-neglect. Bicycle Protective Services should step in. Let him know that I am willing to offer up myself up to be a foster parent. :D

Hehe..I will be sure to mention that to him.
BTW...his idea of "off roading" is going through a mud puddle. He was so excited when he came back and blabbed on and on about how he's ready to tackle more obstacles. I informed him that a mud puddle is not really considered off roading and he mumbled something about the dirt and some bumps.

He won't even go off a curb with this thing. He gets off the bike and then lifts it off the curb..hahaha...

I guess it is mean to laugh at him but there are so many jealous cyclists around here seeing this great bike being wasted, including me !

Justen

Originally posted by khuon
This is like all those people with SUVs who never take them offroad.


Actually its not at all like that, because there are SO many people that dont take their SUV's off road. Compare that to people who have high end mountain bikes that dont take them off road and there will be a huge difference (atleast I think there will).

I guess it is mean to laugh at him but there are so many jealous cyclists around here seeing this great bike being wasted, including me

that reminds me of a few weeks ago at the lbs-- i was talking to an employee about their santa cruz blur, and he was showing me the only one they had, which was on hold for someone else. then this middle aged yuppy lady that looked like she'd never ridden a mtb in her life came in and payed for it. she didn't seem very excited, or have any clue what a great bike she had just bought. when she left with the bike, all the employees and i were shaking our heads, thinking "what a shame it's gotta go to someone that doesn't appreciate it, and won't ever use it the way it could be used."

but i guess at least it's good she's interested in biking

I don't think there is anything wrong with using a mountain bike only on the roads, even with front suspension. Many people, including myself, like the way mountain bikes are designed and their versatility.
Like I have said before, I will use mine on the road 80-85 % of the time but wanted the option of trying a little mountain biking down the road. I am only getting a $1300.00 MTB so obviously it is probably not going to be that great for real dh stuff anyway but I don't plan to do any drops on it so I guess it would handle just basic stuff.

Some people just buy higher end mountain bikes for the road because the components are better quality too, the bikes are more durable and they'll have a longer life span.

i.e. many people around here have Landrover Discovery trucks and I am betting that 70 % of those trucks will never see any true off roading but the owners like the permanent 4 wheel drive and the other "luxury" type features that make them a pleasure to drive on the road.

However, having said this, I think dual suspension bikes really are overkill if you are only commuting and never planning to go off road.

Justen

Originally posted by gonesh9
that reminds me of a few weeks ago at the lbs-- i was talking to an employee about their santa cruz blur, and he was showing me the only one they had, which was on hold for someone else. then this middle aged yuppy lady that looked like she'd never ridden a mtb in her life came in and payed for it. she didn't seem very excited, or have any clue what a great bike she had just bought. when she left with the bike, all the employees and i were shaking our heads, thinking "what a shame it's gotta go to someone that doesn't appreciate it, and won't ever use it the way it could be used."

but i guess at least it's good she's interested in biking

How do you know she wasn't buying it for somebody else ? like her son or husband ? :-)

Justen

I have both a full suspension bike and a jeep cheeroke and take them both offroad.

Originally posted by Justen
...snip

He won't even go off a curb with this thing. He gets off the bike and then lifts it off the curb..hahaha...

I guess it is mean to laugh at him ....snip...
Justen No I really don't think it's mean at all. That's just sad.

Originally posted by KleinMp99
Actually its not at all like that, because there are SO many people that dont take their SUV's off road. Compare that to people who have high end mountain bikes that dont take them off road and there will be a huge difference (atleast I think there will).

I understand what you're saying in terms of scale. I guess I was equating it on a one-for-one basis by comparing that one individual to all of those SUV poseurs.

Originally posted by Raiyn
No I really don't think it's mean at all. That's just sad.

Yeah...it is sad. And as I think about it more...well, maybe he is just scared to do it.

I would love to try out a dual suspension bike...just to see the difference. I know they are really no good for the road but I am just wondering how good you have to be to really appreciate the features of a high end dual suspension bike ?

Justen

Originally posted by Justen
Yeah...it is sad. And as I think about it more...well, maybe he is just scared to do it.

I would love to try out a dual suspension bike...just to see the difference. I know they are really no good for the road but I am just wondering how good you have to be to really appreciate the features of a high end dual suspension bike ?


I ride my dual-suspension on the road sometimes. It's not bad and with all the construction around my area due to new housing, the roads are fairly torn up so the suspension does get a bit of a workout. Of course I have a relatively short-travel 26lbs. XC bike and it does have lockouts front and rear. And if I intend to spend more than a couple of hours on pavement, I'll take the road bike. I probably couldn't stand riding a heavy big hit bike on the road for any extended period of time... especially since there are a lot of 10%+ hill climbs around here.

Hi Khuon,

Thanks for replying. I was just wondering - besides the weight of the bike, do you find it harder to cycle on a dual suspension with it having travel in both front and back ? I know you said it was a shorter travel bike but i just wondered. I was thinking of taking one out for a test ride just to see how they feel but thought I would ask an expert.

Oh yeah - Do you have disk brakes on your bike ? If so which ones and how do you like them ?

Justen

Originally posted by Justen
Hi Khuon,

Thanks for replying. I was just wondering - besides the weight of the bike, do you find it harder to cycle on a dual suspension with it having travel in both front and back ? I know you said it was a shorter travel bike but i just wondered.

Yeah, the bike has 4-1/2" rear and 3-1/2" front. It's a single pivot design in the rear and a parallel linkage fork up front. The rear is succeptable to bobbing but the pivot location keeps the suspension fairly neutral in the middle ring. Additionally I have the ability to lockout the shock. The shocks themselves also employ some electronic sensors to try and dampen excess bobbing. Still I lose some initial power if I go directly from sitting into a full out sprint before the sensors realise what's happening and start suppressing the bobbing.

Specialized's new Epic bikes do the same thing with strict mechanics through an inertia sensor that controls the compression valving but it reverses the paradigm by assuming you want the suspension to be inactive until you yhit some kind of bump. The Specialized shock actually works very nice. Based on the kind of riding you said you were interested in doing, I would recommend you take one of the Epics out for a test ride.


Originally posted by Justen

I was thinking of taking one out for a test ride just to see how they feel but thought I would ask an expert.

Not sure I'd consider myself an expert. I started riding dual-suspension a little over 4 years ago. Prior to that all my riding was done on a rigid. I skipped front suspension because my old bike didn't have a suspension frame and I was concerned a suspension fork would have detrimentally altered the handling.


Originally posted by Justen

Oh yeah - Do you have disk brakes on your bike ? If so which ones and how do you like them ?


Not yet... still on the fence over it. I find that my V-brakes (Avid Arch Rival 50) work pretty well (even in mud) albiet not nearly as well as discs but they seem to do the job. I'm not a particularly heavy rider (145lbs) and I don't do too much extreme stuff so it's not a big deal. Also, it would be a large undertaking to convert my bike to discs. In addition to having to get new levers and probably shifter pods (I have integrated brake/shifters now), I would have to tap the rear dropout and install a disc-adapter (not that big a deal actually compared to the front fork). For the front, I'd have to make a decision on whether to ditch my current fork which I love and buy one that has disc tabs or modify my current fork. My current fork has carbon-fibre legs so adding disc tabs means constructing a welded subassembly out of aluminum and then epoxying it to the carbon-fibre legs. To be honest, I'm not all that sure it's worth it. I've ridden a few bikes with discs on the same trails I normally ride and I'm still not convinced I would be taking full advantage of the investment.

I guess if I were to buy a new bike I'd probably get it with discs. I'm kind of excited about the Avid Juicy hydraulics that are supposed to be debuting this year. Avid's mechs have gotten great reviews from all around and the Juicy looks like it's going to be a real sweet brakeset. In generally, I've been pretty happy with the quality of Avid products too.

I've got a bike with 4.5" of rear travel and a 5" travel fork, with discs. I use all of the available travel. I put a zip tie on my fork upper to mearsure how much travel I was actually getting. Over 4-1/4"!

I also use this bike for commuting. On my route, I usually end up cruising some areas that have very narrow shoulders, and I've opted to pop onto the grass when I hear a big truck or trailer coming. Wouldn't want to do that on my road bike! Plus, I'm constantly hitting drive aprons and launching off the curbs.

It's all a matter of what you're using it for. I've set up a $4000 full suspension bike for a customer w/slick, a rack, a bell, front and rear lights...etc. He wanted to swap the knobbies for some slicks. Didn't even want the knobbies, he had no intention of every riding off road. I asked him why not? He stated, "I'm in my 50's, I've had my fun, now I want (and can afford) a bike that's going to absorb all the road vibration and little bumps. I'm not into racing, so if I take an extra 30 minutes to get somewhere who cares? I'm just into the comfort of full suspension."

With that, I never questioned "Why?" again. If you afford it, and you want it, get it!

I also know a guy who rides 99% of the time on the road, with a FULL FACED HELMET! I asked him, "WHY?" After being hit 3 times, with the last one breaking his jaw and cheekbone, not to mention eye socket, he doesn't want to take any chances. I say, "More power to you!" Wear that full faced, as long as you're riding!

L8R

I feel like a dork wearing a full face helmet :o

Originally posted by Jim311
I feel like a dork wearing a full face helmet :o

I wouldn't want to wear a full face helmet either but given the injuries this guy has had before, he probably doesn't want to take any chances.

Still, I think those full face helmets look weird, especially for street cycling.

Justen

I didn't say he didn't look like a dork! ha ha, just it was something he was willing to endure!

L8R

haha - well, like you said, he was willing to put up with it. After all, if he has another accident, he would be the one suffering the pain, nobody else.

Justen

I probably couldn't stand riding a heavy big hit bike on the road for any extended period of time...


:p


Hahha. There's some paved jogging / biking / walking trails real close to my house that is a several-county-big project. It runs for like 30 + miles, and snakes along a creek. This jogging path is used by me and a few of my friends as a get-away sometimes... just to ride smooth, fast, and really quick corners.

Guess what I ride on there? *bum, bum, bum!* My 38LB Hawg!

It actually would NOT be bad... if I had another set of tires I could throw on there. The rolling resistance of 2.5" knobs on street feels like your permanantly riding through mud. :rolleyes:

If I could get some Maxxis Hookworms for my BH... it actually would be an enjoyable ride!

Anyway, even though my bikes big.. it actually performs QUITE well on those paved trails... which I was astonished at when I first rode it on them. And yes, all 30 + miles. (60 round trip) have been ridden by me, on street, on 2.5" wide knobbies.

Am I crazy? Probably. :beer:

Just for the record... I do own a full face helmet.. I just only wear it when I plan on getting stupid :D

Me Too!

L8R

Originally posted by Jim311
I feel like a dork wearing a full face helmet :o

I used to fill this way but I feel that it will give me confidence...instead of stopping myself because of injury I can go part it...especially now that my bike is beefed up :)

I just saw a middle aged guy ...on the trail start drinking beer and he was riding a TOTALY Clean Gemini bike....3000$....when i returned from the ride the guy was still there with the gemini still clean....and i am talking about muddy UK trails....what a poser.....shame that i am still a phd student without the funds to get a superbike and blast down mountains......it is like ferrari cars.....90% of the owners are over 60 years old and never push the car more than 90km/h....what a wuss....