With lawyer lips, they are defeated already, how much more do you need.
And if a person can't close a QR, what makes you think they can attach a wheel with a wrench?
Hmmm, haven't they ever heard of a pre-ride safety check?
1) Tire air pressure - Check
2) Test for proper brake operation - Check and Check
3) Check QRs to make sure they are tight - Check
4) Test lights to make sure they operate - Check
5) Check that all attached items are tight - Check
6) Check that your seat is properly adjusted - Check
7) Water bottles - Check
8) Check that Pannier straps and tie-downs are properly fastened - Check
Perhaps a better idea then legislating away QRs would be for the state DOT to publish a pamphlet on performing a pre-ride safety check, then make this available free to bicycle shops and to bicycle associations and groups within the state. Maybe get someone from the cycling Industry like Sheldon Brown or Lance Armstrong to do a TV spot, where they go through a pre-ride safety check, showing all the items that should be checked before a ride.
What I find interesting is that Pilots do safety checks, truckers do safety checks, bus drivers do safety checks. I'm work for a courier company and we certainly do them.
However speaking of safety checks, when was the last time you checked that your cars brake lights were working?
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
The only reason X-mart bikes have QRs is to look similar to actual name brand bicycles, so Joe Sixpack buys one and thinks he got a great deal because his $99 bike has QRs like the "pros". I wish they would either go back to nutted axles, or use skewers which can be turned into QRs, that unbolt with a hex wrench, like the ones sold by Nashbar.
Watch this law force every bicycle maker to license Cannondale's patent for a Lefty fork...
khuon
This makes me want to get one of these and flaunt it...
http://www.bmeres.com/images/axleless4.jpg
geo8rge
".....and when are the bar mounted air bags coming out?"
How about manditory full face helmets for children(*).
* Child is defined as anyone younger than 30.
I-Like-To-Bike
".....and when are the bar mounted air bags coming out?"
How about manditory full face helmets for children(*).
* Child is defined as anyone younger than 30.
It is too bad that all this hot air over this insignificant "threat" to Rocket Scientist-like Real Cyclists (such as the posters on this thread who expect cyclists to start out each day with a bicycle safety checklist) wasn't directed at the actual implementation of various mandatory "H" laws that might actually significantly affect bicyclists and bicycling advocacy.
genec
I think in this case the "Rocket Scientists" are the idiots buying poorly made look alike bikes and the lawyers that defend them.
Come on... how many little signs and tags do we need on everyday things that joe average seems to be tripping up on?
How about a touch of common sense before calling the lawyer. Sheesh.
TRaffic Jammer
I can see little warning labels on the cracks in the sidewalk soon.
khuon
Come on... how many little signs and tags do we need on everyday things that joe average seems to be tripping up on?
How about a touch of common sense before calling the lawyer. Sheesh.
The average Joe has no or very little common sense. But you can't always be engineering around common sense. Just because common sense is common doesn't mean it doesn't have to be learned. I've seen plenty of people on high-end bikes riding with loosened quick releases. If I can, I'll stop to point it out to them.
The problem is that people don't treat bikes seriously. They don't think of it as a machine that if operated or maintained incorrectly can lead to harm.
Do I support lawyer lips and a ton of belt-and-suspender engineering to act as a substitute for negligence? No, of course not. But I do support a little bit of social engineering to get the public to change their attitudes towards cycling and preparation. Likely, the people succumbing to injury because their QRs were fastened incorrectly (by them) were also not payingt attention to that LBS salesperson who was showing them how to properly operate it when they first bought the bike. So I guess one could argue that bikes bought at X-mart don't even come with human delivered instructions on how to use the QRs... but they usually come with an instructions manual.
Oh wait... we all read those manuals don't we?
tomcryar
How about a warning tag for lawyers?
genec
The average Joe has no or very little common sense.
Actually I think the average Joe has lots of common sense... after all we don't see wheels flying off everywhere at every moment.
How many of these darn wheels did actually fall off anyway? How many kids were hurt, killed or maimed?
What are we really talking about in real numbers here?
There was a lawsuit regarding automotive windows and their danger a while back... Right now I can only find one site that even talks about the lawsuit.
http://www.texastriallawyer.com/power_windows/ and looking at that site, this guy is pretty much an ambulance chaser.
Here is a site discussing the same thing:
http://www.kidsandcars.org/incidents/powerwindow/compaign/petition4reconsiderOct2004.htm
The NHTSA concluded wisely that in that case, much like the issue with QRs, ADULT SUPERVISION was the key.
This is just another instance where responsible adults should probabaly check out a bike, and or teach the kids how to handle a bike... before they ride.
Heck its not like we are handing out baseball bats and telling the kids to go for it... oh wait, that's Little Leage, and yet again, it is done with ADULT SUPERVISION.
So why am I whining about this... I just hate all the little "mommy tags" and superfluous "safety" innovations that muck up what had been working just fine. Smacks of OSHA mandating backup beepers on vehicles at job sites... AND ear plugs for the workers.
SingingSabre
Stupid people should not breed.
Yet they seem to do so much more than the ones who should...
I just found this with an internet search...
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4103922.html
and
http://www.bikepartsusa.com/product_images/mfg_01/3/full_37113.jpg
Al
My gf's beater has those on it. They're actually kinda nice, as when bolting down the wheel, they keep it in place. Turning nuts tends to readjust wheels where you don't want them to go.
I love my QR's and once had a problem with them. Human error, no one else's fault.
MarkS
When I bought a bike from Performance and later a tail-gator from REI, I had to sign a disclaimer. The sale from Performance made me promise to read the book which came from the store (which they almost forgot to give me). I think if you followed all the safety recommendations in the book the bike would never leave the garage.
Do you get a book and/or sign a disclaimer when you buy from x-mart?
bkaapcke
How often do you check your QR's for tightness?
TRaffic Jammer
Everytime i go out i pick up each end and physically verify the wheel isn't going to fall off as well as lateral movement in the hub. I also make sure the brakes and the tyre pressure are go. Only takes a moment.
garydhatch
New Jersey, were the state govt. feels that its citizens must be so stupid that it is aganist the law to pump your own gas!
Erick L
A friend of mine had his front wheel fly off going downhill.
John E
The cam-activated QR skewer, the clever invention which launched the entire Campagnolo company in the 1920s, has been standard equipment on mid-to-high-end bicycles since the late 1950s. If the nanny-state government wants to get involved, the nannies should at least study the facts first, which would lead them to realize that there is no good reason to make any changes to bicycles sold by REAL bicycle shops, where customers are routinely briefed in the safe and proper operation of the equipment. Let them put all the retainers, lawyer lips, etc. they want on bikes sold at *-Mart by ZMAs* to ZMAs.*
__
When I worked at Bikecology, one of our more egocentric mechanics referred to non-mechanically inclined customers as Zero Mechanical Aptitude.
I-Like-To-Bike
The cam-activated QR skewer, the clever invention which launched the entire Campagnolo company in the 1920s, has been standard equipment on mid-to-high-end bicycles since the late 1950s. If the nanny-state government wants to get involved, the nannies should at least study the facts first, which would lead them to realize that there is no good reason to make any changes to bicycles sold by REAL bicycle shops, where customers are routinely briefed in the safe and proper operation of the equipment. Let them put all the retainers, lawyer lips, etc. they want on bikes sold at *-Mart by ZMAs* to ZMAs.*
__
When I worked at Bikecology, one of our more egocentric mechanics referred to non-mechanically inclined customers as Zero Mechanical Aptitude.
Posted like a true Shop Guy. And I bet you believe your line of dung, too.
Daily Commute
Here's another disadvantage of non-QR skewers. I've stopped to help several people with flat tires but no QR skewer. Since I don't carry a wrench, I couldn't help them. I should probably stick a small adjustable wrench in my seat bag just for these occaisions.
Carusoswi
A friend of mine had his front wheel fly off going downhill.
Were you with your friend? How did that happen? I am very curious.
Caruso
Bikedued
Here's another disadvantage of non-QR skewers. I've stopped to help several people with flat tires but no QR skewer. Since I don't carry a wrench, I couldn't help them. I should probably stick a small adjustable wrench in my seat bag just for these occaisions.
You have to take a wheel off to fix a flat? Not saying it's not nice to have the wheel off the bike, but it's not entirely necessary in an emergency situation.(IE; Poor ZMA on the side of the trail with a flat) Think of how many people you could have helped, lol. JK!,,,,BD
Erick L
Were you with your friend? How did that happen? I am very curious.
I wasn't there. Too bad I coz I would've loved to see him go down. :D That was around 22-23 years ago. Some bruises and a dislocated shoulder if I remember right. No broken bones. I remember he had the cool BMX with brake levers. I'll ask him about the crash when I see him but he didn't seem to remember much the first time. You don't have much time to think without a front wheel!
genec
Everytime i go out i pick up each end and physically verify the wheel isn't going to fall off as well as lateral movement in the hub. I also make sure the brakes and the tyre pressure are go. Only takes a moment.
Exactly... it's not as if this is some jet pilot pre-take off routine. It simply means a very quick check, similar to putting your thumb on the tire to check air pressure. A fast lifting and shake of the bike to ensure nothing falls off. Then a quick snap of the brakes and off you go.
genec
The cam-activated QR skewer, the clever invention which launched the entire Campagnolo company in the 1920s, has been standard equipment on mid-to-high-end bicycles since the late 1950s. If the nanny-state government wants to get involved, the nannies should at least study the facts first, which would lead them to realize that there is no good reason to make any changes to bicycles sold by REAL bicycle shops, where customers are routinely briefed in the safe and proper operation of the equipment. Let them put all the retainers, lawyer lips, etc. they want on bikes sold at *-Mart by ZMAs* to ZMAs.*
__
When I worked at Bikecology, one of our more egocentric mechanics referred to non-mechanically inclined customers as Zero Mechanical Aptitude.
LOL ZMAs. The "mid to high end bike" comment is the the key there. The consumers of those bikes take the time to understand the key aspects of a bicycle, they appreciate the machine and it's parts.
X-mart bikes have a place... they are somewhat disposable bikes for a market that values instant gratification and disposability. Shoppers at X-mart are not out to value the machine, and Quick Releases don't mean a thing to that market, whose patrons who generally are not going to learn how to fix a flat anymore than they are going to learn how to do a quick stop or learn to do a proper merge in traffic for a left hand turn. For those reasons, QR should not be on those bikes... the bikes should be made simple for the market in which they are being used.
genec
Posted like a true Shop Guy. And I bet you believe your line of dung, too.
Speaking of "lines of dung... " I bet you believe a disposable camera sold at X-mart will take the same quality of pictures as say a Nikon D-80, sold somewhere else?
Give it a break, x-mart exists for a reason, and quality is not that reason.
tomcryar
X-marts sell more than just disposable cameras--they also sell nikons.
genec
X-marts sell more than just disposable cameras--they also sell nikons.
Yes, they do... but do you think any consumer that buys a $99 bike is going to pay $698 for a Nikon D-50?
Yes, they do... but do you think any consumer that buys a $99 bike is going to pay $698 for a Nikon D-50?
Actually that's a bad example. I think some would. People place different values on different things.
genec
Actually that's a bad example. I think some would. People place different values on different things.
We are at polar ends of the spectrum here... I doubt actually that someone might pay $600 plus for a camera and then less than $100 for a bicycle and assume that they both represent the same quality...
I do sadly expect that someone might speed $300+ for an X-box and $99 for a bicycle and feel they are getting equal quality... and I have no answer for that... other than to say "caveat emptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor)."
MarkS
I do sadly expect that someone might speed $300+ for an X-box and $99 for a bicycle and feel they are getting equal quality... and I have no answer for that... other than to say "caveat emptor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor)."$99 is incredibly low. You or I would not be able to ship a bike overseas for that price. If the suit succeeds, the only way for x-mart to continue selling at that price point will be to replace the QR with nuts -- they won't want to invest in the personnel to provide training or advice.
khuon
We are at polar ends of the spectrum here... I doubt actually that someone might pay $600 plus for a camera and then less than $100 for a bicycle and assume that they both represent the same quality...
They may or may not expect the same respectively quality but that has little bearing on the value. I've seen plenty of people who will settle for the crap quality of a $99 bike but think nothing of spending $600 on a camera. Here's an exercise for you. Head down to a marina and look at some of the sailboats. You'll find quite a few sailers like to carry bicycles with them so they have some form of personal transportation when they dock at a "foreign" port. You'll also find that even on many of these more expensive boats, the bikes are low-end bikes. Some of them will in fact be Motivs, Nexts and Verticals... the kinds found in between the automotive and camping aisles at Target.
I-Like-To-Bike
LOL ZMAs. The "mid to high end bike" comment is the the key there. The consumers of those bikes take the time to understand the key aspects of a bicycle, they appreciate the machine and it's parts.
X-mart bikes have a place... they are somewhat disposable bikes for a market that values instant gratification and disposability. Shoppers at X-mart are not out to value the machine, and Quick Releases don't mean a thing to that market, whose patrons who generally are not going to learn how to fix a flat anymore than they are going to learn how to do a quick stop or learn to do a proper merge in traffic for a left hand turn. For those reasons, QR should not be on those bikes... the bikes should be made simple for the market in which they are being used.
The extent of snobbery and arrogance by the self appointed arbiters of bicycle value never ceases to amaze me. Bicycle advocates my donkey! Shills is more like it; for LBS's and the concept that expensive/high end exotica equals more value.
genec
The extent of snobbery and arrogance by the self appointed arbiters of bicycle value never ceases to amaze me. Bicycle advocates my donkey! Shills is more like it; for LBS's and the concept that expensive/high end exotica equals more value.
Call those that CAN tell the difference what you want.
Apparently the difference between "stamped" verses "cast and machined" parts means nothing to you.
But I can see and feel the difference between the brake caliper arms and the chainrings of bikes offered at x-mart and my LBS. Perhaps the LBS in your area doesn't offer anything of quality; if that is the case, I can see why you can't tell the difference.
Would a photograph help?
Really if you cannot see the difference, that is one thing, but if you really don't know the difference, I can offer a touch of education. It honestly has nothing to do with snobbery, and everything to do with actual differences in quality.
khuon
Really if you cannot see the difference, that is one thing, but if you really don't know the difference, I can offer a touch of education. It honestly has nothing to do with snobbery, and everything to do with actual differences in quality.
I'm using your points for our particular discussion and leave I-Like-To-Bike out of this (for reasons you can probably guess). I think what you point out is one of the primary reasons that someone would be willing to pay $99 at X-Mart for a bike but at the same time be carrying a $600 camera off to the checkout aisle while wheeling that Motiv past the seasonal decorations section of the store. The recognition of value and quality is not universally applied to all things by all people.
alanbikehouston
It is interesting to compare the bikes that Schwinn built in Chicago in 1956 designed for a ten year old child, compared with the bikes being sold at Wal-Mart today.
A 1956 Schwinn had a grossly overbuilt frame and fork, and beefy steel rims. A 200 pound adult could ride these bikes off a four foot high loading dock without the slightest damage to the bike (don't ask me how I discovered this). The bearings in the headtube, crank, and hubs were speced to provide twenty or thirty years of reliable service. The wheels were bolted on, and the forks designed to hold the wheels in place, even if a wheel nut was not properly tighted.
Those Schwinn bikes provided safe and reliable service to the original owner, his younger brother, and then a cousin, and then a nephew, and may now be providing good service to the grandson of the origina owner.
In contrast, a Wal-Mart bike will have front suspension, 18 or 21 "speeds", maybe rear suspension, maybe quick releases, and hand brakes, using levers spaced for adult, not children's hands. No employee of Wal-Mart has a clue how to properly assemble and tune these bikes. No bike shop stocks replacement parts for them. The "bearings" are often merely plastic sleeves. These bikes are designed for three or four months of riding around the block and then to be junked.
I'm impressed that everyone who has defended the use of a quick release on a children's bike is also an expert on the correct use of a quick release. The reason I'm impressed is, about a third of the time my bike is in the shop for service, it comes back with at least one quick release that is incorrectly closed. Not tight enough, or the "point" of the release facing forward where it can get caught on bushes or other obstacles along the trail.
Shimano published a guide to the correct use of a quick release. As I remember, it had about 14 different steps to ensure a quick release was properly used. Most members of this Forum probably know 3 or 4 of those 14 steps, so they assume THEY are an expert on the correct use of a quick release, and THEN they jump to the conclusion that any eight year old child can correctly use a quick release. I remember what my drill sergeant in basic training said about assuming things...
genec
I'm using your points for our particular discussion and leave I-Like-To-Bike out of this (for reasons you can probably guess). I think what you point out is one of the primary reasons that someone would be willing to pay $99 at X-Mart for a bike but at the same time be carrying a $600 camera off to the checkout aisle while wheeling that Motiv past the seasonal decorations section of the store. The recognition of value and quality is not universally applied to all things by all people.
I hear what you are saying... and the whole thing is based on being a smart, well-informed shopper... the buyer that is buying a Nikon D-50 (SLR BTW) over a point and shoot Kodak, is a shopper that is educated about the item they are purchasing... and the store might even offer both brands, so part of that education can take place right in the store.
But if they only offer the low end item, like a $99 bike... how can any similar comparison shopping take place?
So a smart shopper would go out and look... find out what the differences are... before shopping. In fact, a real shrewd shopper would go to the high end store, get educated, then go to the low cost store to do the purchase. Of course the high end stores absolutely hate this... and try to compensate by offering service after the sale... which the low end store does not.
So it still comes down to Caveat Emptor... let the buyer beware... the money saved at the x-mart store may be what you end up paying for later, for service.
genec
In contrast, a Wal-Mart bike will have front suspension, 18 or 21 "speeds", maybe rear suspension, maybe quick releases, and hand brakes, using levers spaced for adult, not children's hands. No employee of Wal-Mart has a clue how to properly assemble and tune these bikes. No bike shop stocks replacement parts for them. The "bearings" are often merely plastic sleeves. These bikes are designed for three or four months of riding around the block and then to be junked.
A few comments on the X-mart bikes... one is that it is interesting to note that a bike shop will not have replacement parts... and neither will anyone else, most likely... not even x-mart, unless they salvage another bike. All of which tells you something about the intended market for that bike... disposable.
On the other hand folks over in the vintage thread are talking about bikes with 30-40 years on them and still being quite serviceable... those are not x-mart bikes.
And the last comment... that shocked and fat tired x-mart bike will also have a sticker on it that states "not for off road use." Why?
tomcryar
"In contrast, a Wal-Mart bike will have front suspension, 18 or 21 "speeds", maybe rear suspension, maybe quick releases, and hand brakes, using levers spaced for adult, not children's hands. No employee of Wal-Mart has a clue how to properly assemble and tune these bikes. No bike shop stocks replacement parts for them. The "bearings" are often merely plastic sleeves. These bikes are designed for three or four months of riding around the block and then to be junked." -- alanbikehouston
I've known several employees at walmart who knew exactly how to put these bikes together. Please quit generalizing. Bike shops do carry replacement parts for these bikes, and last but not least--these bikes are not designed for a few months around the block and then junked.............I've ridden one for over 3 years and have had no problems with it! Just because you don't like walmart or the others, don't generalize and say it's all bad quality.
khuon
I hear what you are saying... and the whole thing is based on being a smart, well-informed shopper... the buyer that is buying a Nikon D-50 (SLR BTW) over a point and shoot Kodak, is a shopper that is educated about the item they are purchasing... and the store might even offer both brands, so part of that education can take place right in the store.
But if they only offer the low end item, like a $99 bike... how can any similar comparison shopping take place?
Ahhh... but you forgot to include the caveat of "informed shopper" in your original statement. That makes a HUGE difference. ;)
I am in agreement with you here. And I am not defending X-mart brand bikes by any means. I also think that generally speaking, buying a bike from a big-box discount department store should be a special case rather than common place occurance. In almost every situation I can think of, a bike from a reputable LBS is the best choice for the consumer. As a general rule, I try to avoid buying my bicycles from the same place I buy my toilet paper.
Unfortunately there are people out there... many of them who are either inherently or forcibly ignorant of the difference between quality and junk bicycles. Yet they may be quite savvy about cameras. This is why those stores can and indeed do see sales of low-end bikes alongside something like a Nikon D-50 which is considered a mid-range consumer camera that borders on the newly coined higher-performance market of "prosumer".
MarkS
I've known several employees at walmart who knew exactly how to put these bikes together. Please quit generalizing. Bike shops do carry replacement parts for these bikes, and last but not least--these bikes are not designed for a few months around the block and then junked.............I've ridden one for over 3 years and have had no problems with it! Just because you don't like walmart or the others, don't generalize and say it's all bad quality.How many miles have you ridden? I've had to replace all sorts of stuff (tires, wheels, chains, brake pads, cassettes) on my LBS-purchased bike in only 1.5 years -- but I've ridden it more than 7000 miles.
If walmart can sell a decent bike at $99, let's hope they start selling cars :D
Cyclepath
QRs seem to me to make most sense for racers. For the rest, the QR is just one more complication in an increasingly complicated world, one more thing to have to remember & look after. I like my foolproof hexnut skewers.
They also offer more security (i know, a serious bikethief carries a hex set, but we don't have any serious bikethieves around here, few bikes & nothing much worth stealing, so a vandal is more likely, & they don't usually carry hex sets).
"I never framed anybody who didn't deserve it." --Orson Welles, TOUCH OF EVIL
roccobike
QRs seem to me to make most sense for racers. For the rest, the QR is just one more complication in an increasingly complicated world, one more thing to have to remember & look after. I like my foolproof hexnut skewers.
They also offer more security (i know, a serious bikethief carries a hex set, but we don't have any serious bikethieves around here, few bikes & nothing much worth stealing, so a vandal is more likely, & they don't usually carry hex sets).
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but its not mine since I frequently use my QR's. I typically remove the front wheels of my bikes when loading them into my SUV. There are several circumstances when using my bike rack is not practical or sometimes I'm transporting more bikes than my rack can handle. In those instances I remove the front wheel to assure clearance past the tailgate opening. I can not load any of our bikes without removing the QRs from the front wheels. I have a couple of older bikes without QR's. Removing the nut and installing it became such a pain I changed the hex-nut axles to QRs on these bikes.
As for security, I recently purchased a used bike that did not have the nuts properly tightened. Just like a loose QR, the wheel fell off when I picked it up. So I don't see any advantage to a threaded nut VS a QR.
It seems to me the problem is the person installing the wheel, not the mechanism used to hold it in place.
Cyclepath
As i say, besides the security aspect the QR is just one more thing that can go wrong & a couple of times they did for me. I've never had any problem with the hex jobs. Once they are tightened, they stay that way, period, no doubts & no questions, until i want the wheel off. Frankly i did not think of your particular application & i can see why you'd like the QRs.
noisebeam
I can load my 61cm and my 57cm bikes into the back of my Prius and back of my 2dr. Explorerer without removing anything including the front wheel. ;)
Al
Cyclepath
Call those that CAN tell the difference what you want.
Apparently the difference between "stamped" verses "cast and machined" parts means nothing to you.
But I can see and feel the difference between the brake caliper arms and the chainrings of bikes offered at x-mart and my LBS. .
Granted that the ChiCom bikes sold at Hell-Mart & such are good only for recycling, casting & machining is not inherantly superior to stamping as a manufacturing method. A well-engineered stamped part made of good material can be of equally high quality.
tomcryar
How many miles have you ridden? I've had to replace all sorts of stuff (tires, wheels, chains, brake pads, cassettes) on my LBS-purchased bike in only 1.5 years -- but I've ridden it more than 7000 miles.
If walmart can sell a decent bike at $99, let's hope they start selling cars :D
No way to measure exactly how many miles I have on it--rough estimate: 6-8 thousand. I've replaced the tires, rims, brake pads and cables. That's normal wear and tear. And, that's all I've replaced.
John E
OK, I probably came across as a snob (guilty as charged), but my point is simply that I don't want the government to infringe on my freedom to buy a bicycle equipped with a safe and convenient technology which has been proven in more than a half-century of racing and serious touring. I often have occasion to remove one or both wheels, whether to repair a puncture or to transport one or more bicycles in a fuel-efficient automobile. As far as I know, the only inherently unsafe QR system was Hi-E's ill-fated first version, which was underengineered with an aluminum shaft. In the hands of any properly-instructed individual with a modicum of mechanical aptitude, every other QR system is safe and reliable. My objections to *-Mart bicycles are: 1) customers GENERALLY do not receive adequate safety instruction from the sales folks; and 2) the bikes are not always assembled by properly-trained mechanics.
John E
... casting & machining is not inherantly superior to stamping as a manufacturing method. A well-engineered stamped part made of good material can be of equally high quality.
Yup, I am no snob in this department -- both Capos have stamped dropouts :eek: which have lasted more than 45 years.
I-Like-To-Bike
Call those that CAN tell the difference what you want.
I'm calling those who don't know the difference in application as found on this thread the most arrogant bunch of doofis' I've ever seen post a bike snob post on any thread on this Forum. What al oad of crap from the self appointed bike experts/elitists.
And just for the most arrogant poster of the bunch, the photography expert/snob:
I own two Nikon 35mm SLR cameras, an FE and FE2 I've used since the early 80's, as well as a Rolliflex TLR, Mamayia C330F TLR, Minolta XD-11 and X700, Olympus XA Range Finder, and just for basics a Pentax K1000. And all the assorted lenses for both taking and printing. But when anyone who has no particular devotion to photography asks what is a good camera to get/use for taking record or snap 4 x 6" shots on a vacation I have no problem recommending a throway one time use camera or cheap digital obtained at their nearest convenient department store. Someone who has a simple task does NOT need to buy the preferred enthusiasts setup. And only a jackass would rant on about the need for the high end stuff to do simple tasks. Your comments and the similar arrogant posts from the cycling snobs on this thread make me sick. Actually it has removed whatever respect I may have had for your opinion.
I-Like-To-Bike
I also think that generally speaking, buying a bike from a big-box discount department store should be a special case rather than common place occurance. In almost every situation I can think of, a bike from a reputable LBS is the best choice for the consumer.
And the the great majority of the consuming public does not agree with you. Unless you think the consuming public is represented only by the needs/values of Club Cyclists, and BF elitist poster types.