... evidently you have to commit multiple homicides to get serious response from state prosecutor.
"He looked at what he had done, essentially shrugged his shoulders and said, 'Oops,'" prosecutor Ann Ambrose told the jury.
Prosecutors also called one witness who claimed Weller said: "You saw me coming; why didn't you get out of my way?"
Weller was allowed to remain free on his own recognizance until sentencing; a date for that hearing was to be set late next week. Meanwhile, he is prohibited from driving.
....well, at least he's prohibited from driving.
"He's not the warm, friendly man he used to be before the accident. He's been through an emotional upheaval," she said.
or read below
____________________________________________________________
Elderly man convicted of manslaughter
By ROBERT JABLON, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 29 minutes ago
An old man whose car hurtled through a farmers market, killing 10 people and injuring more than 70, was convicted Friday of vehicular manslaughter with gross negligence — the harshest verdict possible.
George Russell Weller, 89 and in poor health, could spend the rest of his life in prison for the 2003 crash, which set off a national debate over whether elderly people should be barred from driving or required to pass additional tests when renewing their licenses.
He faces a maximum of 18 years in prison, but the judge also could sentence him to probation. Prosecutors declined to say what penalty they would request.
Weller was not in court to hear the verdict, reached by a jury after eight days of deliberation.
His attorneys argued that he mistakenly stepped on the gas pedal instead of the brake and panicked when the vehicle raced into the open-air market. But prosecutors said he was careless to the point of criminal negligence and lacked remorse.
"He looked at what he had done, essentially shrugged his shoulders and said, 'Oops,'" prosecutor Ann Ambrose told the jury.
Weller was 86 when his 1992 Buick Le Sabre traveled about 300 yards, reaching 60 mph or more as it crashed into food stalls. It finally came to a stop after hitting a ditch, with one victim's body tangled underneath and another's draped across the hood. The victims ranged in age from 7 to 78.
Weller did not testify, but jurors heard a taped interview with police immediately after the crash in which he said he tried everything he could think of to stop the car.
"I tried to take the control knob and jam it into park. Everything. Anything that I thought would stop the action of the car," he said.
Prosecutors also called one witness who claimed Weller said: "You saw me coming; why didn't you get out of my way?"
Juror Yolanda Hernandez, 54, of Montebello, said after the verdict that the jury was influenced by that testimony and by Weller's statement to police, which the panel did not believe showed remorse.
She also indicated jurors didn't buy the argument that Weller couldn't figure out how to stop his car.
"He had 240 feet before he came to the barricade for the farmer's market. That's a long way, and he went 1,000 feet before he stopped," she said. "He still had plenty of time to react."
Hernandez said jurors agreed from the first day of deliberations that Weller was guilty of vehicular manslaughter but had trouble deciding whether he had committed gross negligence, a felony, or misdemeanor simple negligence.
Asked Wednesday by the panel to provide the legal definition of gross negligence, Superior Court Judge Michael Johnson wrote that it meant "more than ordinary carelessness, inattention or mistake in judgment."
Ambrose said Weller's age wasn't key to the prosecution's case.
"It has been our position from the beginning that no matter if you're 16 or 86, if you make the decision to get behind the wheel of a car, you have a duty of care," she said.
A survivor who is suing over injuries he suffered in the crash said he didn't want Weller locked up.
"There's nothing pleasing about this whole event," said Mark Miller, adding he had empathy for Weller as well as his fellow victims.
At Weller's Santa Monica home Friday, the blinds were drawn and nobody answered the door. A neighbor, Fran Peskoff, said she was stunned by the verdict, adding there was "no way" Weller could have run over people on purpose.
Since the accident, Peskoff said, Weller has become a recluse.
"He's not the warm, friendly man he used to be before the accident. He's been through an emotional upheaval," she said.
Weller was allowed to remain free on his own recognizance until sentencing; a date for that hearing was to be set late next week. Meanwhile, he is prohibited from driving.
Dchiefransom
10-20-06, 10:18 PM
One of the jurors interviewed on the news tonight said a factor in their decision to make it a felony was that the car was not stuck at high speed, but actually changed speed during the incident. They felt that made it deliberate.
DannoXYZ
10-21-06, 08:57 PM
hmmm... 1000ft of travel and reaching 60mph... That's like 15-20 seconds of carnage and slaughter there... BS that he panicked and couldn't stop the car....
Personally, I think EVERYONE should be re-tested for your driver's license every 5-10 years... They should also add a skills test, like emergency maximum-braking while maintaining control, a slide-recovery when hitting slick patches mid-corner, emergency lane-changes without spinning, etc... And none of this 70% score to pass, you gotta be at 100% or else that 30% you failed will end up causing a crash in real-life driving....
seeker333
10-21-06, 10:20 PM
hmmm... 1000ft of travel and reaching 60mph... That's like 15-20 seconds of carnage and slaughter there... BS that he panicked and couldn't stop the car....
Personally, I think EVERYONE should be re-tested for your driver's license every 5-10 years... They should also add a skills test, like emergency maximum-braking while maintaining control, a slide-recovery when hitting slick patches mid-corner, emergency lane-changes without spinning, etc... And none of this 70% score to pass, you gotta be at 100% or else that 30% you failed will end up causing a crash in real-life driving....
Yes, it's hard to believe he couldnt stop in less time/distance.
Evidently he also suffers from a terrible case of foot-in-mouth disease based on his comments mentioned in the article. His attorney probably kept him from testifying in the trial as he would have further incriminated himself.
noisebeam
11-28-06, 02:16 PM
This is the NTSB report about the incident:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2004/HAR0404.pdf
Al
genec
11-28-06, 03:01 PM
This is the NTSB report about the incident:
http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2004/HAR0404.pdf
Al
Some interesting recommendations in that report:
To the Federal Highway Administration:
Revise the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices, Chapter 6, “Temporary
Traffic Control,” to provide specific references and guidance on the use of
barricades, barriers, crash cushions, and other devices, as appropriate, for road
closure situations other than highway construction or maintenance. (H-04-25)
To the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration:
Once standards for event data recorders are developed, require their installation in all newly manufactured light-duty vehicles. (H-04-26)
To the city of Santa Monica:
Install a temporary rigid barrier system at the closure limits of the Santa Monica
Certified Farmers’ Market to provide a physical barrier to errant vehicles entering
the market. (H-04-27)
Update your temporary traffic plans for roadway closures to ensure the safe
operation of the city’s certified farmers’ markets and review and evaluate the
adequacy of the plans annually. (H-04-28)
While the driver was found guilty based on a failure to control the vehicle, the city was also at fault for failing to provide protection on a closed street for a regular occuring event.
But the most interesting thing I saw, was the recommendation for EDR (electronic data recorders) installation in future vehicles.
John E
11-28-06, 05:24 PM
The blame lies with society, for making it so easy to retain a driver's licence, and for forgetting that "driving is a privilege, not a right."
trackhub
11-28-06, 05:41 PM
Personally, I think EVERYONE should be re-tested for your driver's license every 5-10 years... They should also add a skills test, like emergency maximum-braking while maintaining control, a slide-recovery when hitting slick patches mid-corner, emergency lane-changes without spinning, etc... And none of this 70% score to pass, you gotta be at 100% or else that 30% you failed will end up causing a crash in real-life driving....
I agree, everyone should be re-tested at intervals of at least five years. No one would be able to play the discrimination card, since everyone is re-tested.
Getting such a law passed would be the hard part. A member of the Mass legislature filed such a bill eight years ago, after a rash of accidents involving elderly drivers, in addition to the usual number of accidents involving teenagers that occurs every spring. (They just got their licenses, it's prom season, the usual excuses.) The bill never made it anywhere, and that legislator (McGuire, possibly. Not sure) was not re-elected. You know the old expression, "Americans vote with their right foot.".
rajman
11-29-06, 08:20 AM
Why wouldn't he arrange for the car to hit a 'solid object'; a parked vehicle would work well, or perhaps hitting one of the buildings at a shallow angle? We're talking about hitting 80+ pedestrians here over a distance of 1000 ft. It seems to me that if the steering was functioning, this could have been arranged (judging from the aerial shot).
maddmaxx
11-29-06, 09:13 AM
The blame lies with society, for making it so easy to retain a driver's licence, and for forgetting that "driving is a privilege, not a right."
I could not agree with the statement above less. This is a personal responsibility issue. The driver here is responsible and no one else.
mike
11-29-06, 09:23 AM
What happens to young jerks? They turn into old jerks. What is so special that this guy is 80+ years old?
There is another story in the news recently of cops who busted into a suspected drug pusher's house who happens to be an elderly woman. The old lady starts shooting, injuring a police officer. They return fire and she is killed. Now, the big news is that the police killed a little old lady. What is the big controversy here? Young drug addicts and pushers turn into old addicts and pushers if they live that long.
Age does not rinse the bad out of people.
sgtsmile
11-29-06, 06:09 PM
All I want to know is what this has to do with bicycle advocacy. Sensationalism I get, but this has what to do with bike safety?
genec
11-29-06, 06:12 PM
All I want to know is what this has to do with bicycle advocacy. Sensationalism I get, but this has what to do with bike safety?
Apparently just a reminder that you share the road with folks like this.
Blue Order
11-29-06, 07:11 PM
What happens to young jerks? They turn into old jerks. What is so special that this guy is 80+ years old?
There is another story in the news recently of cops who busted into a suspected drug pusher's house who happens to be an elderly woman. The old lady starts shooting, injuring a police officer. They return fire and she is killed. Now, the big news is that the police killed a little old lady. What is the big controversy here? Young drug addicts and pushers turn into old addicts and pushers if they live that long.
Age does not rinse the bad out of people.+1
Well said.
noisebeam
11-29-06, 07:40 PM
All I want to know is what this has to do with bicycle advocacy. Sensationalism I get, but this has what to do with bike safety?
I agree. When this thread was active I ignored it for that reason. But then I stumbled across the NTSB report (I actually did an internet search on the phrase "bus rear end collsion arizona" and the link for the report was near the top, I guess since it occured on arizona ave in CA and involved a collision), I remembered the thread and coudn't help but resurrect it with relevant information.
If anything in addition to what Gene said, it is interesting to see what such a report entails and the recommendations.
Al
TrevorInSoCal
11-29-06, 07:55 PM
What happens to young jerks? They turn into old jerks. What is so special that this guy is 80+ years old?
There is another story in the news recently of cops who busted into a suspected drug pusher's house who happens to be an elderly woman. The old lady starts shooting, injuring a police officer. They return fire and she is killed. Now, the big news is that the police killed a little old lady. What is the big controversy here? Young drug addicts and pushers turn into old addicts and pushers if they live that long.
Age does not rinse the bad out of people.
That's *one* way of reading that story. Here's another.
Police conduct a no-knock, paramilitary style raid on an old woman's house based on a tip from one *single*, supposedly reliable snitch. They bust down the door, and said lady, who is armed because she lives in a crime ridden neighborhood and fears for her safety (an old woman was recently raped in the same neighborhood), starts shooting at the invaders who never sufficiently identified themselves.
To top it all off the informant, on who's word they supposedly got the warrant, is now claiming that the cops told him to lie to cover up for them. So which is it? The informant is lying now and the cops raided the ladies house based on the word a liar or he's telling the truth and they got a search warrant and conducted a SWAT raid on an old woman's house based on a completely fabricated tip and a hunch?
Either way I think you'd be better off looking for a better example of a degenerate octogenarian. The facts in this story aren't exactly clear-cut enough to condemn the deceased. They do make the police in this instance look pretty damned incompetent though.
slagjumper
11-29-06, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by ...
There is another story in the news recently of cops who busted into a suspected drug pusher's house who happens to be an elderly woman. The old lady starts shooting, injuring a police officer. They return fire and she is killed. Now, the big news is that the police killed a little old lady. What is the big controversy here? Young drug addicts and pushers turn into old addicts and pushers if they live that long.
Age does not rinse the bad out of people.
+1
Well said.
+1
Well said.
I thought that this was a "warningless" raid. So if you are allowed to use a gun to protect yourself, where did the old woman go wrong? BTW they only found a tiny bit of pot. I doubt that she was shooting to get away with that.
Old people, particularly men, have slower reaction times.
Blue Order
11-29-06, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by ...
There is another story in the news recently of cops who busted into a suspected drug pusher's house who happens to be an elderly woman. The old lady starts shooting, injuring a police officer. They return fire and she is killed. Now, the big news is that the police killed a little old lady. What is the big controversy here? Young drug addicts and pushers turn into old addicts and pushers if they live that long.
Age does not rinse the bad out of people.
+1
Well said.
I thought that this was a "warningless" raid. So if you are allowed to use a gun to protect yourself, where did the old woman go wrong? BTW they only found a tiny bit of pot. I doubt that she was shooting to get away with that.
Old people, particularly men, have slower reaction times.I wasn't responding in agreement about the shootout (I haven't even heard about it). Just in agreement that we shouldn't assume that old people are gentle, harmless beings. If they were a-holes when they were young, age probably hasn't changed that. Who's to say that this old geezer didn't decide to run down a bunch of pedestrians now that he's a "harmless old man"?
slagjumper
11-29-06, 08:57 PM
I wasn't responding in agreement about the shootout (I haven't even heard about it). Just in agreement that we shouldn't assume that old people are gentle, harmless beings. If they were a-holes when they were young, age probably hasn't changed that. Who's to say that this old geezer didn't decide to run down a bunch of pedestrians now that he's a "harmless old man"?
OK, I see. Very true. It makes me think of the 90 year old Nazis on the lamb. Intent is so hard to prove, I guess the guy really came across to the jury as remorseless.
remsav
11-29-06, 10:02 PM
OK, I see. Very true. It makes me think of the 90 year old Nazis on the lamb. Intent is so hard to prove, I guess the guy really came across to the jury as remorseless.
Well he was found guilty by the jury after 8 days but the Judge sentenced him to probation instead of 20years for killing 10 (women and chidren included) and wounding 70 others because of his age and the burden of the medical health cost he would incure while incarcerated.
I thought this article made it pretty clear you'll have hard time convincing the jury of intent when a drivers kills, maims a ped or cyclist on the road... 8 days for killing 10 wounding 70 others.
and even if you do get a conviction most likely the Judge will sentence the person to probation because it was an accident not a real crime and if the driver is over 70 you better watch yourself.
Reminds me of the way we treated drunk drivers, it was a citation only offense for very long time until MADD and other organization changed our laws.
Bill Abbey
11-29-06, 11:42 PM
I have a phobia about beige Buicks when I am riding. I am sure this guy was in a Buick and it wouldn't surprise me if it were beige or silver. Crap I just gave myself goos bumps thinking about it.
SingingSabre
11-30-06, 12:01 AM
I kept reading this thread, thinking of something to contribute.
I really don't have anything ground breaking to say, only that we really need to find some way to get rid of driver apathy and sympathy for those who make gross lethal mistakes while driving.
genec
11-30-06, 07:50 AM
I kept reading this thread, thinking of something to contribute.
I really don't have anything ground breaking to say, only that we really need to find some way to get rid of driver apathy and sympathy for those who make gross lethal mistakes while driving.
Bingo! You just contributed. The issue of the ease of getting and retaining a license is also something that needs work; as I have mentioned before, Chinese visiting engineers can get a driver's license here far easier than they can in their own country. I think we practically give the things to anybody with the right pocket change.
bluebottle1
11-30-06, 08:18 AM
I agree with the statements about it being far too easy to get and maintain a drivers' license, but I have to admit that I feel some sympathy for this man. He is elderly and may well be on his own. He may have no other way to get around than to drive. (Before anybody yells at me, I don't know what transportation services are available to the elderly in the Santa Monica area. If there are good services, it makes what he did rather difficult to forgive.)
At any rate, I think this is a dilemma that many, many elderly people face. When are they too old to drive? When are the reactions too slow or the eyesight too weak? I don't think this excuses anything, but I think we sometimes need to remember that there are two sides to every story, even one that seems as one-sided as this.
Keith99
11-30-06, 09:55 AM
I agree with the statements about it being far too easy to get and maintain a drivers' license, but I have to admit that I feel some sympathy for this man. He is elderly and may well be on his own. He may have no other way to get around than to drive. (Before anybody yells at me, I don't know what transportation services are available to the elderly in the Santa Monica area. If there are good services, it makes what he did rather difficult to forgive.)
At any rate, I think this is a dilemma that many, many elderly people face. When are they too old to drive? When are the reactions too slow or the eyesight too weak? I don't think this excuses anything, but I think we sometimes need to remember that there are two sides to every story, even one that seems as one-sided as this.
For California the transprotation options in Santa Monica are excellent. Also this was not a reaction time issue. The guy floored it and ran into a group of pedestrians. The claim was his foot hit the wrong pedal. Perhaps. But this was not peds in the street. They were in a farmers market and he hit them somewhere where a car should never have gone at all. In fact at one point the some of the victims (or heirs) were sueing the Farmers market for not having up solid barriers that could have stopped the car.
SingingSabre
11-30-06, 11:34 AM
In "Batman Begins" Bruce Wayne says something to the effect of "I'm just a man. A man can be killed. But if I make myself something more than that: a symbol, I can not be killed."
Cars are just a metal and plastic box with an engine and wheels. But they're a symbol of independance, which is why I feel not many people are too keen at all about giving up their symbolic boxes. I know I won't give up mine. But, then again, I don't use it as a symbol...
[/rambling]
LittleBigMan
11-30-06, 01:43 PM
Cars are just a metal and plastic box with an engine and wheels. But they're a symbol of independance, which is why I feel not many people are too keen at all about giving up their symbolic boxes. I know I won't give up mine. But, then again, I don't use it as a symbol...
[/rambling]
My car is a symbol for me. That's why I have one of the smallest ones.
remsav
11-30-06, 02:42 PM
I kept reading this thread, thinking of something to contribute.
I really don't have anything ground breaking to say, only that we really need to find some way to get rid of driver apathy and sympathy for those who make gross lethal mistakes while driving.
We should create BADD (bikers against drunk drivers) and join MADD and if you're both you can be BMADD, BADMADD and become a force. We are basically fighting for the same things safer roads by being tough on drunk drivers, making inattentative driving illegal etc... then move onto bikes have rights on the road ads.
genec
11-30-06, 02:44 PM
We should create BADD (bikers against drunk drivers) and join MADD and if you're both you can be BMADD, BADMADD and become a force. We are basically fighting for the same fight for safer roads by being tough on drunk drivers, making inattentative driving illegal etc... then move onto bikes have rights on the road ads.
How about Bikers Against Dangerous Drivers... then it can take in everything from drunk driving to inattentative driving.
sgtsmile
11-30-06, 03:55 PM
How about Bikers Against Dangerous Drivers... then it can take in everything from drunk driving to inattentative driving.
Great idea actually, as long at it includes swatting all the bad cyclists out there as well:)
Wogsterca
11-30-06, 06:11 PM
I wasn't responding in agreement about the shootout (I haven't even heard about it). Just in agreement that we shouldn't assume that old people are gentle, harmless beings. If they were a-holes when they were young, age probably hasn't changed that. Who's to say that this old geezer didn't decide to run down a bunch of pedestrians now that he's a "harmless old man"?
Tpically as one gets older, they become more cynical, so a young jerk turns into a cynical old jerk. The only time you get good jerk, is when it's chicken prepared the Jamaican way:D
Realisitically, if you can't drive in a safe, careful and courtious manner, then you should turn in your keys. I prefer if drivers can make that decision themselves, but clearly alot are not making that decision when they should, so the state needs to step in, and that isn't always a good thing.
Here in Ontario, Canada, a doctor can report you to the Ministry of Transportation, and they will suspend your licence on medical grounds, this can be temporary or permanent, for example my father in law had several moderate heart attacks, and the cardiologist had his licence suspended.
donnamb
12-01-06, 12:17 AM
The guy floored it and ran into a group of pedestrians. The claim was his foot hit the wrong pedal. Perhaps. But this was not peds in the street. They were in a farmers market and he hit them somewhere where a car should never have gone at all. In fact at one point the some of the victims (or heirs) were sueing the Farmers market for not having up solid barriers that could have stopped the car.
I went to the Santa Monica farmers' market a couple of times when I was there in October. They block off the entire street and there are booths and scads of people all over. It would be like literally plowing into a mob of people. I don't know how anyone could miss that the street was blocked off to auto traffic.
Since the deaths, the Santa Monica police block off the streets with 2 police cars instead of the barricades they used to use. If it wasn't obvious before that the street is closed, it sure is now.