Just a simple question on fine tuning left turn technique.
In fast busy traffic merging across multilanes often requires a very early start to the merge to make it to the turn point (intersection) consisently.
However if all goes well (motorists accept your negotiation easily/early) one may find oneself in the left lane of several quite a bit sooner than needed.
In some (many where I live) cases there is a middle turn lane that just before the intersection turns into a LT lane with changed line painting. It is possible to merge early into this center lane to allow for faster traffic to pass. I would only consider doing this if after all other possible uses (i.e intersections) of this lane center lane have passed. The other possible consideration is the merge conflict with other vehicles who are turning into the LT lane, when you are already in the center lane.
What do others do? Do you quickly use the center turn lane and allow fastter traffic to pass, or do you only merge into the LT lane only when it official becomes a designated turn lane.
The law* (http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00729.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS)allows for travel in the center lane only if passing other vehicles or if the lane is clearly designated for the turn for the intersection being approached. Technically neither applies in this case, but I am not particulary concerned with the law in this case.
While this is a safety question, it more one of fine tuning than 'must do.' I do both scenarios depending on the sense I have of the situation and comfort level (that no one else will be merging into me at the potential conflict point.) Just curious as to others thought on this. To be clear the travel in the non designated turn lane is never more than several tens of yards.
*"2. On a roadway that is divided into three lanes, a person shall not drive a vehicle in the center lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the center lane is clear of traffic within a safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn or where the center lane is at the time allocated exclusively to traffic moving in the direction the vehicle is proceeding and is signposted to give notice of the allocation."
Al
Bekologist
10-20-06, 10:59 PM
less than fifty yards?
its still speed situational and traffic dependant. it is a 'safe zone' regardless of legality, but there'd be a danger to a quick overtaker taking your line into the left turn.
I'm holding the lane at anything greater than half the speed of traffic and dice the stripe, ride extreme left in a lane or use the center turn lane for passers with a greater than 3.5 time speed differential. sometimes legality matters less than safe expediency. I'd prefer to ride far left first or dice the stripe before using the center lane.
i see high speed differential situations like this on my loaded tourer in strange towns often, and it is much different than zipping along downhill on a fast bike into a intersection on a usual route.
when i stop WITHOUT a center turn lane to make a left, sometimes i hold the line, sometimes I hold the lane. gots to see what's coming up behind...and speed differential has a lot to do with it.
I'll dice a split yellow if i'm early into a left turn, just for the heck of it. sometimes i pull the turns early if theres approaching traffic i can make it in front of and the line looks good.
LCI_Brian
10-20-06, 11:39 PM
Such situations are rare in my area, where raised center medians are the norm. But on occasion I have found myself in the situation Al describes. In those cases, I've cycled on or just to the right of the stripe that separates the center lane and the left lane.
sbhikes
10-21-06, 08:32 AM
I haven't been in that exact circumstance so I can't say for certain what I would do, but that doesn't sound right to me. Reminds me too much of the days when I'd have to cover my eyes while riding with my Grandma who would often mistake those center lanes as a regular lane.
genec
10-21-06, 11:25 AM
The only problem I have with being in the center lane, is that you then have to merge right... back into traffic at the left turn lane... it just means one more merge vice just controlling a lane for a bit.
Yeah it's a fine tuning issue, but I cannot think of any real negative about it, except if you are in the center lane so soon that approaching traffic from the other side can hit you as they move into the center lane for a turn. (hence the reason the nickname "suicide lane").
Granted they should see you and not get into the lane... but then they should see other cars and not do that too... but it happens.
noisebeam
10-21-06, 12:21 PM
The only problem I have with being in the center lane, is that you then have to merge right... back into traffic at the left turn lane... it just means one more merge vice just controlling a lane for a bit.
Yeah it's a fine tuning issue, but I cannot think of any real negative about it, except if you are in the center lane so soon that approaching traffic from the other side can hit you as they move into the center lane for a turn. (hence the reason the nickname "suicide lane").
Granted they should see you and not get into the lane... but then they should see other cars and not do that too... but it happens.
Thanks Gene and Bek and Diane and Brian -all good thoughts.
Quoting only Gene as I don't understand your first sentence about merging back right - most like a confusion in what I am describing - the shared center turn lane aka suicide lane turns into the LT only lane at the intersection (via changes in striping only) So once I am in the center turn lane I can keep riding straight, the 'danger' is where a vehicle that was originally behind me in the left most straight lane decides to turn left too and may try and beat me to the LT lane at which point they may be merging in at the legal place to do so so I have to yield to them in theory.
As to the name 'suicide' lane - the danger is really at (approaching and leaving) intersections - I would never ride in it in places it passes or has just passed other intersections where there would be a reason for another vehicle to turn in or out of it - that greatly helps reduce the risk. So as to Genes second comment, there is no intersection just behind me that may result in an oncomming vehicle to turn into lane.
So for interest sake, how far would one ride (technically illegally) in the center lane if it was not passing any intersection of any kind (not even driveways, etc.) There are some intersections where there is a good 1/4mi of center lane that is never used by any turning vehicle. Sure it is a bit more dangerous and illegal, but if there is a big gap in traffic 1/4mi back from the intersection you are turning at, (1) would you cross over into it and ride in it for 1/4mi? Or (2) would you start the turn later, sometimes struggle with negotating thru a cloud of heavy traffic. Or (3) would you use the gap 1/4mi back to merge left and stay in the inner (non center) lane and hold up the inner lane for just under 1/4mi when the cloud of traffic gets to you?
I've never done (1), but most often do (2) sometimes with a bit of (3), then moving into center lane a few dozen yards before the official LT lane.
Al
John E
10-21-06, 06:18 PM
On a fast multilane road, I am never too proud to make a two-part left turn at a traffic signal. (Flame away, HH.)
derath
10-21-06, 10:30 PM
On a fast multilane road, I am never too proud to make a two-part left turn at a traffic signal. (Flame away, HH.)
+1
The road near my office if similar, sorta. 4 lanes, but with a grassy median in between rather than the turn lane. Traffic is pretty fast (60+mph on average) with a "clean and well accomodated" shoulder. If I can safely merge left in time to get to the left turn lane at the light I will. But generally due to traffic I just do the right at the light U-turn to go across manoever. Doesn't really add any time to the turn, due to the traffic light sequence, and I don't need to be "dead right" in my rights to the road.
Closer to home I have roads like you describe. And while I will ride the turn lane a bit if I have to, I generally don't enjoy it. I have had enough times while in my car and having someone almost hit me head on that i know it is a distinct danger. Usually at this point I have found people are so intent on their left turn they sometimes aren't even paying attention to what is in front of them, as they don't expect traffic in that center turn lane.
-D
Dchiefransom
10-22-06, 03:25 PM
On a fast multilane road, I am never too proud to make a two-part left turn at a traffic signal. (Flame away, HH.)
The options for bicycle riders is bountiful. At a long red light onto a main street, with no right turn on red, I would pick up my bike, walk it around the corner on the sidewalk, mount back up around the corner, and ride off. This was a looooong red light.
LCI_Brian
10-22-06, 05:14 PM
On a fast multilane road, I am never too proud to make a two-part left turn at a traffic signal. (Flame away, HH.)
+1, depending on how many breaks in traffic ... and sometimes the two part turn can be faster depending on the signal timing
noisebeam
10-22-06, 05:47 PM
On a fast multilane road, I am never too proud to make a two-part left turn at a traffic signal. (Flame away, HH.)
Its not about pride. Often there is not a control signal, but a stop sign for the x-street only. In rush hour to/from work there is an impossibly long wait for a enough of a two way gap to make it all the way across, even part way can be a wait. I've tried this sometimes and may wait 2min for a gap, make it half way and then wait again for another gap- and I prefer not to wait horizontally in the 'suicide lane'. So I (comfortably) perform with what is often a difficult left merge. Then I only need to wait for one half of the road for a gap and while waiting I am positioned at a place where other drivers expect a vehicle to be waiting, with front/rear lights pointing the right way (I do have side reflectors, etc. too) - instead of horizontally inside the intersection, which if you've tried it can be harrowing with cars whizzing by on each side and some of them pulling fast into intersection to make turns and cars from the side street 'forcing' their way into the middle too.
But yes, two part left turns are a totally fine and often the best way to make a left turn.
Al
joejack951
10-22-06, 07:30 PM
But yes, two part left turns are a totally fine and often the best way to make a left turn.
Funny you mention that, there's an intersection on my way home from work where 90% of the time, a two part turn would be far quicker than using the left turn lane. The problem is that if I do the two part turn, I'm stuck plopping myself down in front of a line of traffic then taking the lane for next 3/4 of the a mile of a 4 lane 45mph road. I have no issue with taking the lane as it's what I do anyway, but I feel kinda bad about butting in line then going slow. Sometimes waiting at the light for 3-4 minutes in the cold rain (when I just miss the left turn signal) makes me think I shouldn't care so much. What's the best way to handle two part turns in this situation?
noisebeam
10-22-06, 07:32 PM
Funny you mention that, there's an intersection on my way home from work where 90% of the time, a two part turn would be far quicker than using the left turn lane. The problem is that if I do the two part turn, I'm stuck plopping myself down in front of a line of traffic then taking the lane for next 3/4 of the a mile of a 4 lane 45mph road. I have no issue with taking the lane as it's what I do anyway, but I feel kinda bad about butting in line then going slow. Sometimes waiting at the light for 3-4 minutes in the cold rain (when I just miss the left turn signal) makes me think I shouldn't care so much. What's the best way to handle two part turns in this situation?
When I do a 2 part turn, I turn right then u-turn behind line of cars. Putting myself in front is rude and dangerous (as sometimes light can changes during 2 part turn)
Al
sbhikes
10-22-06, 07:35 PM
Sometimes I will take a left way early and hop on the sidewalk, then head up to the crosswalk and do a one-corner turn.
joejack951
10-23-06, 06:36 AM
When I do a 2 part turn, I turn right then u-turn behind line of cars. Putting myself in front is rude and dangerous (as sometimes light can changes during 2 part turn)
Al
Ok, just checking to make sure I'm not the only one who thinks there's something wrong with that. To make a left behind traffic, I'd have to hop a median or go a 1/4 mile out of my way to make a legal left at which point, skipping the light just became useless. I'll just keep waiting.
As to Diane's sidewalk comment, I find using sidewalks/crosswalks near busy intersections to be a real hassle. Whenever I'm walking through this area, I always think about how much easier it would be if I could just use the turn lane like I do on my bike. Without much traffic though, the sidewalk would be a viable option for skipping the light.
noisebeam
10-23-06, 08:50 AM
Ok, just checking to make sure I'm not the only one who thinks there's something wrong with that. To make a left behind traffic, I'd have to hop a median or go a 1/4 mile out of my way to make a legal left at which point, skipping the light just became useless. I'll just keep waiting.
There is so very rarely a median for side streets crossing arterials here, which is mainly the situation I am talking about. In this case I u-turn and end up being 0-2 cars back from light. But I can't remember the last time I did that (used a two part turn)
This doesn't work at arterial intersections, too many lanes, too much traffic. Then I just use the left turn lane as there is not way I can put myself in front of the line of cars, I'd have to be in x-walk which often is used by peds, and since there are 7 lanes (sometimes up to 9 with added LT and RT only lanes) it is too likely the light may change as I am positioning myself in front of the line. No thanks.
Al
noisebeam
10-23-06, 09:06 AM
I attached four examples of intersections
1. An aterial 4-way
2. An non signalled T intersection
3. An non signaled 4-way intersection
4. A signalled 4-way intersection of aterial w/side street
#1 gets tricky with two part turn as there is no space in front of line of vehicles to stop and turn bike.
#2 almost must be done as a lateral merge and normal left turn.
#4 is where a right turn and u-turn behind line of cars works. No median.
#3 a two part turn can make it near impossible to cross the street when traffic is busy.
Al
joejack951
10-23-06, 09:46 AM
I'm not so sure I explained my intersection clearly so I'll post a shot too. The street I'm on is vertical and I'm heading south (down) making a left onto the horizontal road to go east (to the right of the picture). The road I'm on is two straight lanes with a left turn lane. The intersecting road is two straight lanes plus two left turn lanes and a single right turn lane in each direction. You can see the concrete median seperating the two directions on the road I'm turning onto.
Bekologist
10-23-06, 09:55 AM
holding a left lane of a multilane road with no center turn lane, just a double yellow, waiting for oppossing traffic to clear, will get you the blaring horns and screams out the windows 80-90 percent of the time here.... don't know how it is for you guys but drivers locally are very pissypants.
noisebeam
10-23-06, 10:07 AM
holding a left lane of a multilane road with no center turn lane, just a double yellow, waiting for oppossing traffic to clear, will get you the blaring horns and screams out the windows 80-90 percent of the time here.... don't know how it is for you guys but drivers locally are very pissypants.
Sure, it can happen anywhere, but is there an alternative? Yes, the alternative is to install LT only lanes, which allow for smoother (and faster ;) ) forward flow for all vehicles. This is by no means a bicycle issue, but a vehicular one.
The default design method here is all roads have a shared center turn lane. As side streets are added, there is no need to install LT only lanes. Its hard to find a collector or arterial that doesn't have one (or didn't - the final evolution when there are lots of side streets/driveways is to add medians)
Al
mux11
10-23-06, 03:12 PM
Well I know it is the lesser of the selected but I tend to keep the furthest distance from the potential and with a busy road and intersection I would gravitate to making a right and better controlling the cross at a 90 for better visibility. This keeps my cheese from hanging in the wind as a target. The lowest common denominator is always the anticipation of the slowest brain and I don’t want to be on that end of the equation.
noisebeam
10-23-06, 03:15 PM
Anyway folks, this was about fine tuning the technique of a vehicular left turn (yes of course two part turns, right and u-turn, can be vehicular as I've ridden with some taxi drivers who did this in busy traffic), not about avoiding it all together.
Al
wheel
10-23-06, 05:09 PM
I would fine tune the merge.
I ride the same streets.
If I am comming up to a left hand turn I will look behind me at the traffic pattern well before I am going to make a merge. I can usually tell right there if I am going to be able to do a merge at high speed. Then I will most likely slow down wait for the surge of cars and merge after the surge. I do an aggresive merge, unless I need to clear the third lane (considering I have one lane taken already), but the point is to be at the left tune lane enterance upon arrival. All the lanes do not need to be totally clean, but just the lane I want needs to be open for a safe distance.
The thing I stress I am already taking a lane (at the start of the merge) it does not matter if I am going 2mph 5mph or 20 mph cars are going to zip past me. Slowing down buys me time to merge so that I am able to go right into the left turn lane.
In Phoenix stop lights send a surge of cars down the road. Rush hour excluded.
noisebeam
10-23-06, 05:11 PM
IIn Phoenix stop lights send a surge of cars down the road. Rush hour excluded.
Correct. On weekends there is often a sufficient gap that one can find a gap and merge into it and across it without much negotiation, if the cluter of vehicles get to you before complete, then they slow. However it is my rush hour commutes where there seems to be a constant flow of traffic, so negotiate (agressively) I must.
Anyway the fine tuning was about if you get to the left turn entance before the stripe goes away and there are no medians or inner curbs. Do you go into the center lane or hold up faster traffic until you get to the official left turn lane entrance
Al
wheel
10-23-06, 05:30 PM
In rush hour
I do a spin that way you have miles of center lane to use and not intersections This is where you can merge left stop at the center spin then merge Right and your on your way.
If it has a light I just time the light till it turns red Motors zomming down the road stop short for you and you calming merger over to the left turn. If this doesn't work then go past that and do a spin.
no need to fine tune the enterance
wheel
10-23-06, 05:47 PM
Correct. On weekends there is often a sufficient gap that one can find a gap and merge into it and across it without much
Al
To be honest I never arrived before the center strip went away. Way to scarry for me.