Clydesdales/Athenas (200+ lb / 91+ kg) - What to look for in a saddle purchase?

Hey guys. My brother is getting discouraged from riding because of the uncomfortable stock bontrager race lux seat on his bike. I am in a dilemma as to getting a good seat for him. I would love to ride with him as it will keep us both motivated. The only other thing we tried was a seat off of a 2002 specialized rockhopper with no luck. We tried many adjustments of the stock race lux with no real gain. There was a slight improvememnt tilting it barely up but after 1 mile he is done from pain. He is new and it is hard to gather where exactly he is feeling pain but it seems to be a lot of pressure right on his sit bones.

I have decided we will go to get him fitted for a seat on that specialized ass-o-meter. That will give us a general idea for seat width. Now I know there is a lot more that goes into a seat. Is it just trial and error? How do you know if you need a cutout? If you prefer gel or a real hard saddle? What length? What shape? Is there any general ways to go about this or should i just keep getting saddles for him to try and then after months of trying do the best one? If i knew there was a seat he was comfortable on I wouldnt mind spending $175+ on it (even though I have still seen seats for more then that which seems crazy to me) but if its trial and error I cant see spending more then like $80 at a time.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

My experience in that it is a trial and error game. I did the Specialized butt gauge and got one of their Avatar 155mm saddles. It was my third saddle---and it has been the best. Even completed a century this week with it and so it is on my bike to stay.

Now my other question for you would be---what kind of shorts is he riding with. I think they are as important as the saddle. Its a combo thing in my mind. I found the heavy padded shorts were less comfortable and more chaffing that some more moderatly padded shorts. I also just tried some bibs and like them a lot. I buy Performance shorts and bibs and found the LiguiCell shorts and the Elite Bib shorts do me very nicely. Makes me wonder how much better some of the more expensive stuff will feel (maybe someday I'll find out).

Hope this helps!

I had the same saddle on my bike when I bought it and thought that maybe it wasn't wide enough and replaced it with a slightly wider saddle. That was actually worse and I returned it the next day. When I went to my LBS to return it the sales guy suggested a narrower saddle. I explained that I didn't want it dissappearing up my backside and he said to give it a try. Wound up with a Serfas RX Performance saddle and have had it on ever since.

Like your brother I was letting that uncomfortable saddle keep me from riding and then I though to myself that if that was the only thing standing between giving up or committing to a program it was definitely worth the time and effort to try a few different ones out. Here I am a few months later and I'm still riding.

Good luck

The Bontrager Race Lux is a crap saddle...I have one. I did ride a good 15 straight miles on it before deciding it just wasn't my thing. The Race Lux's problem is that it's supposedly double the standard padding of a normal Bontrager Race saddle, so for me the saddle just puts pressure all over my lower bits and I just don't feel comfortable after about 10 miles.

I'm a big fan of Brooks, but I realize that at their price and reputation (as having a long break-in period), not everyone wants to try one as a possible solution for their troubles.

The narrower saddle suggestion sounds good, but for a beginning rider I'm prone to saying that his problem is more related to the shape of his saddle and not the width.

I did eventually decide my Brooks was a bit too wide and I chopped and laced it to tighten and narrow the middle of the nose. I found the back of the saddle (where it conforms to fit you) fit me great, but the drapes and the width of the nose weren't conducive to 100rpm pedaling with my legs.

I'd say the most important thing to look for is not how it feels on the first few miles, but how it feels 10 miles out. Anything can feel good the first 3 miles, but only the right saddle will feel good when you've been on it for a good hour. I probably would've demanded the LBS equip me with a different saddle had I done my homework on the Race Lux.

saddles (for upright/safety/df bikes people) are like shoes do NOT buy without trying for size - do not expect/presume to buy a saddle for anyone else

take brother + his bike to the good LBS and ask to try different saddles in store - that is, change the saddles and actually have your brother sit on them as a comfort check - if the LBS refuses then they do not get your business, move on and find one that has actual customer service

a rule of thumb to start is
small rider = narrow saddle
large rider = SLIGHTLY wider saddle
more padding = more discomfort on an exponential scale
perineum cutout in the saddle = all day comfort
and no-one has an azz shaped like the 45 degree wedge on beach cruiser bikes - you want a sofa go to ikea

Specialized used to produce a hip measurement tool for saddle fit - that may also be a good place to start

saddles are like shoes do NOT buy without trying for size - do not expect/presume to buy a saddle for anyone else

take brother + his bike to the good LBS and ask to try different saddles in store - that is, change the saddles and actually have your brother sit on them as a comfort check - if the LBS refuses then they do not get your business, move on and find one that has actual customer service

a rule of thumb to start is
small rider = narrow saddle
large rider = SLIGHTLY wider saddle
more padding = more discomfort on an exponential scale
perineum cutout in the saddle = all day comfort
and no-one has an azz shaped like the 45 degree wedge on beach cruiser bikes - you want a sofa go to ikea

Specialized used to produce a hip measurement tool for saddle fit - that may also be a good place to start

I'd say a brooks. However, if you want something to go fast with and still be comfortable, this one (http://www.bacchettabikes.com/recumbents/accessories/carbon_hs.htm) absolutly wins hands down. Of course, you may have to get the right bike for it. :)

I'd say a brooks. However, if you want something to go fast with and still be comfortable, this one (http://www.bacchettabikes.com/recumbents/accessories/carbon_hs.htm) absolutly wins hands down. Of course, you may have to get the right bike for it. :)

lol - my bad - never assume that the rider is talking about a safety bicycle either - check the recumbent forum for 'bent specific saddles too

thanks for all the advice. Also the bike is a road bike not a recumbent :) Ill let you know what happens

Another Brooks Fan here! A B-17 tends to fit most folks. Just make sure that height and front to back is adjusted properly. Most beginners have the seat too low. An inch difference with a Brooks (and most other saddles as well) will make a difference from pain to bliss. Just keep moving it up until it feels good then move it up until it gets worse and then back off. Sheldon Brown, on this subject, quotes someone as saying "You never know what is enough until you know what is too much" (or something like that.)

Is the road bike setup for a beginner with the bars in a fairly high position relative to the saddle?
Another fault is in the position of the rider. He may need to tilt his hips forward to fully engage his sit bones with the saddle; riding with his ass sticking out can put pressure on the wrong quishy bits.

What to look for? The name Brooks.

I must politely disagree with the Brooks zealots. I tried one and it completely pancaked within a couple of weeks. To answer the original posters question about what to look for in a saddle (expressly intended for clydes):

1. A perineal cutout (this reduces pressure where it matters)
2. Rails that won't bend (usually means steel, but I've also used titanium without problems)
3. Some, but not too much padding
4. Long rails with plenty of front-to-back adjustment range
5. Reasonable price

My personal fave, having tried out a couple dozen saddles (including all the Brooks line), is the Specialized Milano. I've tried two or three Milanos now, and every one is excellent.

With respect to FarHorizon - Senior Curmudgeon, my experience is the exact opposite, right down to the Specialized Milano. My Milano hangs on the shop wall along with the other seven failed padded/gel'd experiments. A decent saddle but hot and sweaty over 40 miles because it is synthetic. It came on my Specialized Sequoia Elite as a toss-in since Specialized knows the owner will personalize the bike. Same with the brake pads - but I digress...

It's Brooks for me. I have a B17 on that bike and B67's (springs) on my Trek 520 tour bike and my now broken and dead Trek 830 MTB (set up for road use/touring). The latter is being replaced by a very good Trek 930 that will either inherit the saddle or it will get a new Champion Flyer, which is a B17 with springs.

My suggestion to the OP is that he consider the ride posture and go from there. If the bro' uses a MTB or a comfort type bike, then a B67 or a Champion Flyer would be my call. If a recreational road type like the Sequoia, then a B17 Standard should do it. If a competition type roadie, then all bets are off, since little weight is placed upon the saddle and a synthetic featherweight will probably do as well as anything. Trial and error I'm afraid.

EDIT NOTE: Also with respect to FarHorizon, his post points out the vast range of preferences on saddles. Just like boots.

I must politely disagree with the Brooks zealots. I tried one and it completely pancaked within a couple of weeks. To answer the original posters question about what to look for in a saddle (expressly intended for clydes):

1. A perineal cutout (this reduces pressure where it matters)
2. Rails that won't bend (usually means steel, but I've also used titanium without problems)
3. Some, but not too much padding
4. Long rails with plenty of front-to-back adjustment range
5. Reasonable price

My personal fave, having tried out a couple dozen saddles (including all the Brooks line), is the Specialized Milano. I've tried two or three Milanos now, and every one is excellent.

Just goes to show that different okoles like different saddles ;) I tried an Milano...what an ass-hatchet.
FYI at 230lbs I had more pressure on the bits on both the Milano and the Alias than I ever had on either my B17s or Team Pros.

Here's a link that might help.

http://www.roadbikerider.com/bookstore.htm#Finding_the_Perfect_Bicycle_Seat_

As these posts point out, the saddle is THE most personal thing about a bicycle. Everybody's booty is different, and one rider's ass-hatchet is another's booty-bliss. Unfortunately, there's no way to predict what will be comfy for an individual rider. That means that experimentation by the rider in question is the only practical option.

To minimize experimental-saddle costs, I buy mine used on e-Bay when possible (EXCEPT for the Brooks - and maybe the Fizik Arione - since those saddles must "break in" to the specific rider). Should I not want to keep the saddle after a week of riding (the usual case), I resell it on e-Bay for what I paid. I'm out shipping charges, but I can afford those.

I will also say that I practically revere chipcom's and jcm's opinions on most things bicycle related. They are in the majority with their opinions of Brooks saddles and I'm certainly in the minority. We can agree to disagree, though, because I can't argue with my own butt! :p

Happy saddle shopping!

We can agree to disagree, though, because I can't argue with my own butt! :p


Arguing with your own butt ain't so bad, but when it gets to talking back, you're gonna have a bad day!

Just to add to what you said, not only are saddles personal, but many a saddle gets thrown into the junk pile not because the saddle was the problem, but because the user didn't take the time to get it, and the bike itself, properly adjusted to fit.

I've noticed since doing the RAAM parade laps, and crewing for some distance riders/teams also doing Brevets and such that most the distance crowd will have a nice Ti or Carbon race bike with a brooks bolted to the seatpost. I have a B17 on my touring bike, and a Pro on my Paramount. Bike fit is also important, if your seat to bar height is more than an inch or so different, you may have comfort problems because the frame is too small. If in the end, you can't get comfortable over distances, consider getting bent. I jacked my shoulder up a few years ago, and it bothers me on longer rides. I was exposed to some stupid fast recumbents in 2005 following RAAM, and picked up a Bacchetta last October, now 4000 miles later, I'm comfortable, and by far faster than I ever was on either of my road bikes. I've also knocked out some double metrics, 5 and a half hour centuries, a double century, and at the end of each ride I was just tired, not hurting. The only pain you should have on the bike is in your legs from pushing hard. Here's some photos from this years Furnace Creek 508 at around mile 180 or so, notice all (1) of the happy faces. :)

http://www.the508.com/2006web/shows/2006show14/index.html

Thanks for all the replies so far! Here is some more info that was brought up...

The bike is a 2006 Lemond Reno, so it is a road bike but not with a crazy aggresive setup since we are both new.

We were both fitted for our bikes.

It is set up for a beginner with the stem facing up and the spacers on the bottom making the bars the highest.

The bars and saddle are very close in height. There is little to no drop.

As far as bike shorts, we both do not have but are riding in the most bike friendly nylon "gym" shorts we could find. We are also looking for shorts now too.

Seems to be a lot of preference. Sounds like well be trying out a whole bunch of seats.

There's the beauty of the Brooks for those of us who use em - we don need no stinkin padded shorts! :D

Thanks for all the replies so far! Here is some more info that was brought up...

The bike is a 2006 Lemond Reno, so it is a road bike but not with a crazy aggresive setup since we are both new.

We were both fitted for our bikes.

It is set up for a beginner with the stem facing up and the spacers on the bottom making the bars the highest.

The bars and saddle are very close in height. There is little to no drop.

As far as bike shorts, we both do not have but are riding in the most bike friendly nylon "gym" shorts we could find. We are also looking for shorts now too.

Seems to be a lot of preference. Sounds like well be trying out a whole bunch of seats.

Unless they're bike specific, chances are you're sitting on a seam. Get some bike shorts, that will help immensely.

The Bontrager Race Lux is a crap saddle...I have one.

I've got one too, and it works great for me. I'm 6' 1", 245 pounds (down from 264) and have been riding the stock Bontrager Race Lux saddle on my Trek 1000 since June 1. Very comfortable for me ... my longest rides are in the 35 mile range, but I really haven't had any discomfort or saddle issues.

My son (16 years old, 6' 0", 205) has the same saddle and finds it uncomfortable ... looking for a new one for him!

Unless they're bike specific, chances are you're sitting on a seam. Get some bike shorts, that will help immensely.

+1. The padding is generally in the shorts, not the seat, for road bikes. My friend rides a saddle that is literally solid CF or aluminum or something. You can rap on it with your knuckles (tap tap tap). I ride a Specialized Avatar. It has maybe 1-2mm of padding in two semi-circles just under the sit bones. I can ride my commute to work in street clothes (3.5 miles each way, ~12 minutes). Any further and it's all about bike shorts. I just completed my longest ride to date of 70 miles (almost 4.5 hours in motion in the saddle) and while I knew I'd been sitting for 4.5 hours I felt generally ok. It's all about wearing bike shorts, and preferably good ones. I find that shorts with a _firm_ chamois are more comfortable over the long haul, even if they don't seem like the best after 10 seconds. Same goes for seats. For the long haul, it's all about a firm seat so you can get the pressure on your sit bones.

If it's the sit bones themselves that are giving you grief, then the answer may simply be more saddle time. By the time that brooks is broken in you'll probably have enough saddle time to handle it. :)

-Adam

Brooks= hard, deadly torture device. To each his own, but I prefer Lycra covered saddles, such as the San Marco Apside. I have traded saddles around with others to find what works and have given away expensive leather saddles.

Unless they're bike specific, chances are you're sitting on a seam. Get some bike shorts, that will help immensely.

Yes. And avoid the gel type as in the saddles. Get a pair with some type of fabric padding, chamois, or faux chamois. I use cheapo Canaris. No problem on any ride out to 100 miles. With the San Remo, a Brooks a B17 should do the trick if you should venture that way. Don't be put off by the hardness factor. While they don't soften a great deal, they will give enough. More with a couple hundred miles. Don't try to reduce the slickness - that's what helps keep you cool and comfortable.

FarHorizon amplified what I said earlier - this is the most personal component on the bike, and probably the most responsible for finding great bikes at garage sales because people get frustrated with the comfort factor.

Be aware that nothing is going to feel like your couch. There will be pressure and some getting used to things. I just find the Brooks products to be the least troublesome by far.

You didn't say the weight range.

I tried 2 replacement saddles. The arione tri is really nice. My original started to hurt after 15 miles, but this one is still comfortable after 25 miles. It's slightly longer than most and has a nice wide rear, so you have 3 positions: 1. on nose, 2. in middle, 3. sliding back for comfort on the rear. It's not leather but like the brooks will adjust after about 6 months to fit your body. It's designed to partically break down.

My personal fave, having tried out a couple dozen saddles (including all the Brooks line), is the Specialized Milano. I've tried two or three Milanos now, and every one is excellent.

That looks scary. Could it split down the middle? I'm afraid I'd end up having a seatpost as an enema.:eek:

That looks scary. Could it split down the middle? I'm afraid I'd end up having a seatpost as an enema.:eek:

Nah - I started riding Specialized Milanos at 295 pounds and they've been bulletproof. The rails don't bend, the padding stays in place, and the underpan shows no signs of stress. I move around on my saddle a LOT to prevent things falling asleep and for a variety of comfort reasons. Even with all the sliding around, the plastic upper has held up. Two full years of riding now, and my first Milano looks and rides like new.

I tried measuring my 'sit bones' - they were about 8 inches across. Try measuring many of the road saddles and you'll find they're much less narrow than that. Which means that the widest part of the saddle is actually pushing your skeleton outwards. Ouch!

I picked up something like this (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=114&subcategory=1082&brand=&sku=17371&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat%3A%20Saddles) from Nashbar (except mine has two springs). When I rode 80 miles a few weeks ago and had an asthma attack the ONLY part of my body happy at the end of that ride was my ass. It's not perfect, but for the price I can't complain!

Start off by measuring his sit bones - that'll tell you the width you're looking for. And then try as many as your lbs will let you!

Good luck!

I tried measuring my 'sit bones' - they were about 8 inches across. Try measuring many of the road saddles and you'll find they're much less narrow than that. Which means that the widest part of the saddle is actually pushing your skeleton outwards. Ouch!

I picked up something like this (http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?category=114&subcategory=1082&brand=&sku=17371&storetype=&estoreid=&pagename=Shop%20by%20Subcat%3A%20Saddles) from Nashbar (except mine has two springs). When I rode 80 miles a few weeks ago and had an asthma attack the ONLY part of my body happy at the end of that ride was my ass. It's not perfect, but for the price I can't complain!

Start off by measuring his sit bones - that'll tell you the width you're looking for. And then try as many as your lbs will let you!

Good luck!

Another example of how individualistic this issue is. One of my failed experiments is very much like your success story. :)

I am considering the Milano, but should I get the Gel or Vanilla flavor? ($50.00 VS $35.00). If that doesn't work then I will plop down the cash for a Brooks Champion.

Frankly, I'd go with the Brooks, myself!

I am considering the Milano, but should I get the Gel or Vanilla flavor? ($50.00 VS $35.00). If that doesn't work then I will plop down the cash for a Brooks Champion.

I'm using vanilla but like the gel too. If you buy from your LBS, they'll probably let you trade back in toward a Brooks if the Milano isn't to your liking.

Meh. I went ahead and ordered a B-33. If it doesn't work out I am throwing it at Tom ;)

Meh. I went ahead and ordered a B-33. If it doesn't work out I am throwing it at Tom ;)
And I'll catch it and install it on my bike!:D

Meh. I went ahead and ordered a B-33. If it doesn't work out I am throwing it at Tom ;)

Then by all means, report to us on how you like it after a fair break-in period. I'd be eager to hear your experiences! :)

Hope it works for you & happy miles!

I need to lose more weight before I try the Milano. I thought the springs and the wider saddle would be a better choice because I ride in a more upright position (Hybrid). The Milano sems more suited to a road biker's posture.

And I'll catch it and install it on my bike!:D

If you miss the catch, you could be killed! :D

I need to lose more weight before I try the Milano. I thought the springs and the wider saddle would be a better choice because I ride in a more upright position (Hybrid). The Milano sems more suited to a road biker's posture.

Bingo. As I stated before, the Milano seemed ok to me ( I switched to a B17), but on a road type bike. I wouldn't use one on a hybrid. Springs rule there.

If you miss the catch, you could be killed! :D
Ah, but I've always been a good fielder!:D

After years of reading reviews and trying different saddles all I can say is that nobody else can tell you what saddle will feel right with your butt. My Selle Italia Turbomatic 3 either crushed my boys or put too much pressure on my arms for years until one day I finally leveled the damn thing. Now it's perfect..I just wish it were 3-4oz lighter.

Another vote for Brooks.

My experience with gel/heavily padded saddles is extensive. They feel good when you are sitting on it for two minutes in the bike shop. They feel like hell on rails 5 miles into a ride.

The Brooks seemed very counter intuitive to me, but the more you think about it the more they make sense. All that padding and gel does is wad up and put more pressure where it hurts, in between your two sit bones where all that delicate plumbing runs. The brooks supports the sit bones, those pointy ends of your pelvis and leaves the plumbing largely untouched. (Think sitting on an unpadded bar stool, leaning forward, that's what a brooks feels like to me -- now imagine sitting on that same bar stool with a couple rolled up socks under your nuts, that's what a gel saddle feels like to me).

I will say this, it is impreative the Brooks is set up right on the bike, and this is something that takes a couple rides to dial in. For me, it's the saddle pretty far forward on the rails (seat closer to handle bars) and the nose just barely a hair inclined.

People talk about long break ins with the Brooks, I don't know. I've been really lucky in that my Brooks have been pretty comfy right out of the box. If I've been off the bike for awhile, there's a slight "breakin" period for me, but I've had that with every saddle I've ever ridden.

I ride two B17s, one on my MTB set up for commuting, and one on my go fast bike and a B67 on my touring bike.

my .02

The brooks supports the sit bones

My perfect saddle would be a Brooks with a cutout? Impossible I guess.

My Brooks problem (with a sprung B67) was weighing 210 lbs. I sunk into the saddle and the mid section pushed upward causing the same pressure as cheap gel saddles. FarHorizon is right on for warning heavyweight Brooks users. I loved the saddle however for many other reasons.

Next saddle is likely another recumbent.

My perfect saddle would be a Brooks with a cutout? Impossible I guess.

My Brooks problem (with a sprung B67) was weighing 210 lbs. I sunk into the saddle and the mid section pushed upward causing the same pressure as cheap gel saddles. FarHorizon is right on for warning heavyweight Brooks users. I loved the saddle however for many other reasons.

Next saddle is likely another recumbent.

Interesting. I started riding at 270 (now 225), quickly discovered the B67 for long distance and have been happy ever since... go figure.

Should a good lbs carry brooks and Milano saddles? I just called one near me and they carry neither. I live in a bigger city, Pittsburgh, should I seek out a lbs that carries these brands?

Brooks can be tough to find at an LBS, not sure why. www.wallbike.com sells a lot of Brooks saddles, and I have had good luck with them. Wallingford used to have a great warranty on Brooks saddle, if you hated it you could return it and they gave you a couple (6?) months. Pretty sure that still goes, but check and make sure. They also have a pretty decent page describing the different models, etc.,

You can find them at Nashbar, but not sure what return policy they would have when it came to a leather saddle.

I started riding Brooks at 296, followed the directions for treatment religiously, keep it dry via covers and fenders etc., and have only used the tension wrench once on a saddle that I felt was getting sloppy in the middle.

Like I said before, couldn't be happier. Full Disclosure: I've never tried the Milano. Found something that works for me and I'm sticking to it.

Brooks can be tough to find at an LBS, not sure why. www.wallbike.com sells a lot of Brooks saddles, and I have had good luck with them. Wallingford used to have a great warranty on Brooks saddle, if you hated it you could return it and they gave you a couple (6?) months. Pretty sure that still goes, but check and make sure. They also have a pretty decent page describing the different models, etc.,

You can find them at Nashbar, but not sure what return policy they would have when it came to a leather saddle.

I started riding Brooks at 296, followed the directions for treatment religiously, keep it dry via covers and fenders etc., and have only used the tension wrench once on a saddle that I felt was getting sloppy in the middle.

Like I said before, couldn't be happier. Full Disclosure: I've never tried the Milano. Found something that works for me and I'm sticking to it.


Which Brooks?

You can find all the Brooks at Wall bike. The paticular saddle I started with was a B17, honey colored, not that I think there's anything different about it than the black ones. I now own two B17, and a sprung B67 and find them all very comfortable. I've heard people complain you can hear the sprung versions creak, but I haven't had this problem.
It's very important to dial the position of the saddle in for you. For me, this was a process of trial and error that took more than a few rides to perfect. My saddles are just about level, with the nose inclined just a hair. I ride pretty upright, and the saddles are forward on the rails, (moved up closer the the handle bars).
I wear padded shorts for the first couple of rides on a new saddle, but can ride many miles in just about anything. My first time on the Brooks, I did have some slight discomfort on the tissue under my "sit bones" but nothing like the discomfort I had from other saddles, including numbness of things I really didn't want to be numb. The discomfort wanes and I've been happy ever since.
If you get a Brooks, there's a great temptation to use one of the many "cures" on it (oils, etc.) . I'll let others more experienced than me chime in, but I would suggest you stick to the factory's suggestion for leather treatment as there are as many horror stories about ruined saddles with these treatments as there are heralds for their use.
There's also a lot of people who say there's a long "break in" period for a Brooks. I don't know if it's because I'm a clyde, but my saddles seem to be pretty comfortable out of the box. My oldest Brooks is probably going on six or seven years, and it hasn't been damaged by my weight. It has discolored, turned a shade of darker brown. I think because it got a good soaking in the rain once, but every month I swear it seems to get a a little lighter. I did wait for it to dry out before I rode it again.
If you end up getting a Brooks, keep us posted.

My perfect saddle would be a Brooks with a cutout? Impossible I guess.

Brooks with cutout? Here you go:

http://mcmwin.com/saddle%20shop.htm

I was thinking about trimming a Brooks in such a manner. It looks to be pretty easy to do.

Both the regular B 17 and the B17Narrow work well for me, so I probably will not do a modification. I bought my B17 here:

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='0906-05'

They were cheap and fast. What could be better than that?

Someone did that on BF a few months ago with a dremel. I can't remember the thread title, something along the lines of "Am I crazy" but a search pretty brought up every thread in the last 6 months ;)