View Full Version : Ibuprofen aids
I have read many times that anti-inflammatories (sp?) such as ibuprofen is very common to help with recovery. Is this to say that some pain and the like is very common with higher intensity cycling?
Enthalpic
10-25-06, 12:57 PM
They can help with pain (DOMS), if that would stop you from training then they can be considered slightly performance enhancing. Otherwise they are used to help injuries heal as they cut down on the inflammation that can exacerbate friction injuries (eg IT band syndrome). If you are not injured, or skipping workouts due to DOMS, they do not help you. They interfere with prostaglandin production, which is involved in hormone regulation and cell growth. In fact, the inflammation itself is one of the signals initiating the repair process. Furthermore, you can get ulcers with overuse.
I don't think pain is a common result of training, if you follow good principles to avoid it. Every pain reliever available has serious risks or side effects:
Aspirin--Decreases blood clotting ability with risk of gastric bleeding and stroke.
Ibuprofen and other NSAIDs--gastric bleeding, possible increased risk of stroke and heart attack.
Tylenol--Liver toxiity with regular use.
Opiates like vicodin--drowsiness, habit forming.
It is very unhealthy to frequently take pain pills of any kind, especially when most pain can be avoided with good training practices.
Three ideas that I know of, to decrease training-related pain:
Good fit on your bicycle.
Gradual increase of intensity and volume of training.
Post-training nutrition--eat a little snack with carbs and protein after a hard ride.
I don't think pain is a common result of training, if you follow good principles to avoid it. Every pain reliever available has serious risks or side effects:
Aspirin--Decreases blood clotting ability with risk of gastric bleeding and stroke.
Ibuprofen and other NSAIDs--gastric bleeding, possible increased risk of stroke and heart attack.
Tylenol--Liver toxiity with regular use.
Opiates like vicodin--drowsiness, habit forming.
It is very unhealthy to frequently take pain pills of any kind, especially when most pain can be avoided with good training practices.
+1.
Ibuprofen can also lead to kidney problems (Kenny Easley ended up with a transplant), though reportedly he was taking 32 tablets a day...
donnamb
10-25-06, 11:30 PM
Furthermore, you can get ulcers with overuse.
And major bruising. I have to take a lot at times for a chronic pain condition, and I bruise easily and badly for about a week afterwards.
superslomo
10-26-06, 09:36 AM
It's better to focus on good recovery habits and skip the pain killers. They are not good for you long-term, each with its own downside... if your body is hurting, that's probably a sign that you should let it heal up.
Thanks for all the great replies. I believe that natural is better.
blue_nose
10-26-06, 12:25 PM
Three ideas that I know of, to decrease training-related pain:
Good fit on your bicycle.
Gradual increase of intensity and volume of training.
Post-training nutrition--eat a little snack with carbs and protein after a hard ride.
You missed one of the most important factors – rest.
A good training plan should include periods of recovery and rest.
slowandsteady
10-26-06, 01:50 PM
Genenerally speaking any over the counter drug is extremely safe. The side effects listed above happen in overdoses or after chronic ingestion of high doses. If people were dropping from liver failure or kidney failure, it wouldn't be an over the counter drug.
But, taking pain relievers can mask injuries and can cause you to overdo it leading to further injury or delayed healing. The drugs themselves don't delay healing, it is your lack of feedback from pain that does.
If you have DOMS, mild exercise will actually cause the pain to go away at least for a few hours.
John B.
10-26-06, 06:45 PM
If you want a natural anti inflammatory with no side effects try Traumeel. www.heelusa.com
grebletie
10-26-06, 08:09 PM
Three ideas that I know of, to decrease training-related pain:
Good fit on your bicycle.
Gradual increase of intensity and volume of training.
Post-training nutrition--eat a little snack with carbs and protein after a hard ride.
+1 on nutrition.
Even if you think you're getting enough, you may not be. For a couple days my legs had been a bit sore. After a little while of not getting better, I wondered what was up. One morning, I woke up and it finally hit me...I was undernourished. I think I ate around 800-1000 calories that morning and was still hungry.
The moral of the story is listen to your body. If you're hurting, you need to find the root cause, rather than mask the symptoms with pain killers. You should really only rely on pain meds very infrequently, for the reasons other people have mentioned.
If you want a natural anti inflammatory with no side effects try Traumeel. www.heelusa.com
Well, you're right about no side effects. This is a homeopathic "medication". Homeopathic products are diluted to the point that there is not a single molecule of the active ingredient left in the preparation. All you are buying is an inert liquid, gel, or tablet. Homeopathy is a complete waste of money.
John B.
10-27-06, 08:16 AM
Well, you're right about no side effects. This is a homeopathic "medication". Homeopathic products are diluted to the point that there is not a single molecule of the active ingredient left in the preparation. All you are buying is an inert liquid, gel, or tablet. Homeopathy is a complete waste of money.
You can believe that if you chose but my personal opinion is that you are full of crap! This product has been in continuous use for close to 50 years & is very popular in Europe where they don't share the U.S.'s appetite for pharmaceuticals. I've had excellent results using homeopathic remedies & naturopathic treatments for everything from toe fungus to an enlarged prostate. When you look at the laundry list of possible side effects caused by the popular treatments the drug companies are trying to sell you I'm amazed that anyone would take that stuff.
slowandsteady
10-27-06, 08:37 AM
When you look at the laundry list of possible side effects caused by the popular treatments the drug companies are trying to sell you I'm amazed that anyone would take that stuff.
It is a laundry list because we are REQUIRED to list every side effect even if it only affects 0.5% of the people who take it. So called homeopathic "drugs" are not required to do tox studies or efficacy studies or proof of concept studies. They are not reviewed by the FDA.
Basically you can put some dirt in a vial and call it a natural cure for cancer and you don't have to do anything to back it up.
If you had any clue how drugs work you would see that a natural treatment would have similar side effects as a so called chemical treatment. If the homeopathic drug actually worked, it is because it binds to the appropriate receptor and causes the subsequent up or down regulation of that pathway.
It may have off target effects or side effects from on target pathways just like pharmaceuticals. The difference is that at least you know what you are getting with a drug that has gone through 10 years of research, publication in peer reviewed journals, and a lengthy review with the FDA. With the homeopathic fluff, you know nothing. Don't mistake a lack of tox studies and disclosure as a perfect safety profile.
Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
You can believe that if you chose but my personal opinion is that you are full of crap! This product has been in continuous use for close to 50 years & is very popular in Europe where they don't share the U.S.'s appetite for pharmaceuticals. I've had excellent results using homeopathic remedies & naturopathic treatments for everything from toe fungus to an enlarged prostate. When you look at the laundry list of possible side effects caused by the popular treatments the drug companies are trying to sell you I'm amazed that anyone would take that stuff.
Here's how a homeopathic remedy is made (I am not making this up):
Take a substance that you think could cure a condition. Put one part of this substance in 10 parts of distilled water. Shake it up real well. Now take one part of the result and add it to 10 parts distilled water.
Repeat the above process until the result is so dilute that there is virtually no chance of a single molecule of the original substance contained in the distilled water.
Homeopaths believe that the more dilute the substance, the more potent the remedy.
Homeopaths also believe in the "Law of Similars" whereby to cure a condition, you use a substance that would create symptoms similar to the condition. In other words, to cure itching, you use a substance that would cause you to itch, dilute this substance by incredible amounts, then apply it to your itch.
Does this sound like sound science?
If you don't believe this, read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy for yourself.
Homeopathy is a complete waste of money. Period. It doesn't matter how many years people have been selling this stuff. It does not work.
Note that homeopathy is NOT the same thing as taking herbs, or other dietary supplements to cure your ills. That's a separate fraud perpetuated on unwary consumers.
It is a laundry list because we are REQUIRED to list every side effect even if it only affects 0.5% of the people who take it. So called homeopathic "drugs" are not required to do tox studies or efficacy studies or proof of concept studies. They are not reviewed by the FDA.
Basically you can put some dirt in a vial and call it a natural cure for cancer and you don't have to do anything to back it up.
If you had any clue how drugs work you would see that a natural treatment would have similar side effects as a so called chemical treatment. If the homeopathic drug actually worked, it is because it binds to the appropriate receptor and causes the subsequent up or down regulation of that pathway.
It may have off target effects or side effects from on target pathways just like pharmaceuticals. The difference is that at least you know what you are getting with a drug that has gone through 10 years of research, publication in peer reviewed journals, and a lengthy review with the FDA. With the homeopathic fluff, you know nothing. Don't mistake a lack of tox studies and disclosure as a perfect safety profile.
Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
Homeopathic products do not have to be tested because they do not contain any active ingredients. When you are selling distilled water or other inert preparation (pills, ointments, etc.) there is no risk that the substance will harm the consumer. Sadly, people who rely on homeopathic remedies for serious conditions may be harmed by the failure to use an effective medication, but that's a different issue.
Most people have no clue what homeopathy really is. They group these products along with dietary supplements and think that they are some sort of natural extract like St. John's Wort or garlic. In reality, all they are buying is distilled water and any perception of effectiveness is due to either the placebo effect or the person simply recovering from the condition on their own.
John B.
10-27-06, 04:56 PM
One guy gets his info from wikipedia & the other works for a drug company. Do either of you know anything about Traumeel which is what started this in the first place? If the drug companies are doing so much testing & are only out for our well being why do we keep seeing drugs yanked off the market when people start dying? Its a free country, use what you chose, I use what I consider safe & effective.
We don't know anything about Traumeel because the maker's don't tell us anything about it -- except the marketing blurb. And that its a homeopathic medicine -- which, whether you use wikipedia or find some other source of information, implies that its extremely diluted something.
I don't trust homeopathic therapies -- nor the drug companies which yield too much lobbying power.
Tryptophan is a natural chemical which is a great aid to sleep and nervousness. The FDA yanked it off the market after a single batch of poorly made tryptophan from Japan (I think it was) was discovered in the 80's and never allowed it back! Meanwhile, psycho-active OTC sleep-aids with a laundry list of side-effects are still being sold by the pharmaceutical companies. If you want tryptophan, you have to get it as a pet food supplement (for all those dogs that bark all night?).
Can you imagine if all Ford Explorer's were banned from the market because just one production run had bad tires?
Its a free country, use what you chose, I use what I consider safe & effective.
Fortunately, the "homeopathic remedy" you're purchasing is generally safe...because, like all homeopathic products, it's really nothing more than distilled water!
As for effective...if you "have faith in it", it may be effective (the placebo effect is very real).
Of course, if your homeopathic product were ever tested properly (e.g., in a double-blind clinical trial), you would find that it performed no better than a placebo. Which is one reason so few homeopathic remedies are ever tested in clinical settings.
I have read many times that anti-inflammatories (sp?) such as ibuprofen is very common to help with recovery. Is this to say that some pain and the like is very common with higher intensity cycling?
For the occasional ache or pain due to cycling, running, etc. I prefer the "all natural" healing properties associated with a good glass of beer (summertime), or red wine (fall and winter).
John B.
10-27-06, 07:17 PM
Fortunately, the "homeopathic remedy" you're purchasing is generally safe...because, like all homeopathic products, it's really nothing more than distilled water!
As for effective...if you "have faith in it", it may be effective (the placebo effect is very real).
Of course, if your homeopathic product were ever tested properly (e.g., in a double-blind clinical trial), you would find that it performed no better than a placebo. Which is one reason so few homeopathic remedies are ever tested in clinical settings.
http://patient.cancerconsultants.com/cam_cancer_news.aspx?id=17530
John B.
10-27-06, 07:23 PM
More test info: http://www.heel.ca/pdf/fact/Traumeel_en.pdf
One guy gets his info from wikipedia & the other works for a drug company. Do either of you know anything about Traumeel which is what started this in the first place? If the drug companies are doing so much testing & are only out for our well being why do we keep seeing drugs yanked off the market when people start dying? Its a free country, use what you chose, I use what I consider safe & effective.
Is there something about the Wikipedia article that you found incorrect? I don't believe there is any disagreement that homeopathic remedies are created by diluting a substance beyond the probability that a single molecule of the substance remains. Yet Homeopaths believe that this makes them effective against medical conditions. I went to the website for the pain reliever that you mention and they specifically stated that it was a homeopathic remedy. That tells me that the product contains none of whatever ingredient the company used to make the preparation. If it does contain any of the original ingredient, then it is not homeopathic.
I'm sorry if this all bothers you, but that is exactly what homeopathy is. Homeopathy was developed in the 1800s when there was little good medical knowledge. the fellow who developed it was, I'm sure, acting in good faith, but his hypotheses just didn't work out. Sadly though, there are still proponents who believe in the Principle of Similars and that extreme dilutions strengthens the effectiveness of a remedy. Worse yet are those who quietly label their products "homeopathic" knowing that the general public has no idea what it means.
John B.
10-28-06, 09:09 AM
One more for those with an open mind: http://chimclin.univr.it/OMC/(153)Traumeel.htm
Is this Heel company the same one that the FDA called one of the most flagrant law violators?
http://www.homeowatch.org/reg/BHI/bhi.html
John B.
10-31-06, 07:04 AM
Is this Heel company the same one that the FDA called one of the most flagrant law violators?
http://www.homeowatch.org/reg/BHI/bhi.html
Did they? The actual quote from your anti homeopathic web page was: "In response to this promotion, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration concluded that BHI was one of the most flagrant law violators among homeopathic marketers." It was taken from another such site that no longer exists so it could be just as inaccurate as most of the info on Dr. Barnett's web page. The incident referred to dates from 1985 & concerned a booklet they sent out as opposed to any problem with their actual products.
In the 23 years your Dr. covers they received 2 letters concerning marketing claims & 1 voluntary recall for 1 product that didn't meet their potency standards. Compare that to the same period for our major drug companies which have experienced class action lawsuits & had to pull drugs off the market that had resulted in deaths.
The page you linked is typical anti homeopathic hysteria with outright lies like: Heel USA is currently iillegally selling over 1000 products. The truth is that Heel USA currently markets less then 100 products, all of which are registered with the FDA & in full compliance with their regs. Dr. Barnett borders on the truly pathetic when he brings up the fact that Heel USA was offered a tax break by the county when they put up their new building as if that is somehow illegal & completely dismisses the scientific testing published in med journals showing the effectiveness of Traumeel.
As to your statements concerning their products containing nothing but distilled water you will find a complete listing of all their products ingredients with dilution rates & actual amounts used on the Heel USA website.
slowandsteady
10-31-06, 08:48 AM
Homeopathic products do not have to be tested because they do not contain any active ingredients. When you are selling distilled water or other inert preparation (pills, ointments, etc.) there is no risk that the substance will harm the consumer. Sadly, people who rely on homeopathic remedies for serious conditions may be harmed by the failure to use an effective medication, but that's a different issue.
Most people have no clue what homeopathy really is. They group these products along with dietary supplements and think that they are some sort of natural extract like St. John's Wort or garlic. In reality, all they are buying is distilled water and any perception of effectiveness is due to either the placebo effect or the person simply recovering from the condition on their own.
You may be partly right. I am sure there are plenty of diluted homeopathic "drugs" on the market. But clearly from the situation with ephredra, there are plenty of natural remedies that are potent and deadly.
The reason these drugs don't have to be tested is because they are not considered drugs. They are categorized as food, which doesn't have to be tested for efficacy or toxicity.
The reality is that these things should be reveiwed by the FDA. The laws should change but won't until the FDA has more resources. There are plenty of legitimate peer reviewed studies out there touting the benefits of natural products. Unfortunately the snake oil salesman tactics of most of those products means that you really can't trust anything out there. Too bad.
You may be partly right. I am sure there are plenty of diluted homeopathic "drugs" on the market. But clearly from the situation with ephredra, there are plenty of natural remedies that are potent and deadly.
The reason these drugs don't have to be tested is because they are not considered drugs. They are categorized as food, which doesn't have to be tested for efficacy or toxicity.
The reality is that these things should be reveiwed by the FDA. The laws should change but won't until the FDA has more resources. There are plenty of legitimate peer reviewed studies out there touting the benefits of natural products. Unfortunately the snake oil salesman tactics of most of those products means that you really can't trust anything out there. Too bad.
The ephedra issue is not a homeopathic one. By it's definition, homeopathic products are diluted to an extreme level to the point where the likelihood of even a single molecule of the remedy is present in the final product is extremely slim. Homeopaths actually believe that the more dilute the substance, the more effective it is. homeopathic products use a confusing notation like 10X, 20X, 30X, etc. to describe the number of times the product has been diluted. In this notation, 30X means the product has been diluted more than a 10X product. Very few typical consumers understand this or have any idea what it means.
The packaging and marketing of extracts as "dietary supplements", like ephedra, ginseng, garlic, St. John's Wort, etc, is a separate class of products. These products contain significant concentrations of the intended ingredient. They are marketed on the presumption that these natural substances have therapeutic benefit without the risk of side effects. Although the vast majority of these products, IMHO, are as ineffective as homeopathic remedies, they are not the same as homeopathic remedies.
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