Touring - panniers, which ones?

well i just need some "yes your right to do it" comments here, haha.

I have decided to not bother with the trailer, after being a bicycle cab cyclist for some time, and really growing to hate that feeling, the trailer although much light still pushes a guy around a bit. Building a wheel with some heavier gauge spokes and replacing hub bearings now and then isnt a big deal to me. so now time for panny's

i am 100% convinced with my decision to go with arkel.
but i thought for the hell of it, what does everyone think?

its alot of money for me, and my comming trip is intented to last as long as i have money, 400+ for panny's is steep. but, ive ridden my whole life, and will the rest of it. i keep saying that while justifying the cost. also the fact im supporting my countries economy is an aspect of my decision, and the fact the customer service is nearly the best i have ever witnessed ever. and therefore TRUST their warranty.

what do you use? and why?

now time for racks, if i could only afford tubus or OMM's/
ill probably go with axiom, any reason not to?

Can't go wrong with Arkel's. I found used tubus racks, got both for $100, cargo rear, and Tara front.
The cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the use you will get from both the racks and the panniers.

On my tour this summer, I came across 5 people with broken racks and the two times when it was the front rack, both times they were Axioms. There's one reason (for me) not to ever get that rack. Two things I will not skimp on: wheels and racks.

If you go new, I'd go with Wayne at www.thetouringstore.com, he'll set you up with Tubus Tara (front) and Tubus Cargo (rear) - awesome combo. It's what I got and not a single complaint about either of them. Wayne is a great guy and he'll help you out with any problems you might have.

As for your Arkel decision, they're what I got also. I have the Very Large Handlebar Bag, the T-22 set, the GT-54 set, and a GT-18 (backpack) pannier. I got the T-22's because I really didn't think I needed the extra space and width of the GT-18's over the T-22's up front. I didn't regret it but one thing I did wish I had was a a backpack or something to carry more stuff than I could cram into my handlebar bag when I was off the bike. So I got a GT-18 backpack version which I am currently testing out to see if I want to give it to the Mrs. or get another to pair it up for my next tour.

The GT-54's are huge mofos, good for storing lots of gear and I loved the pockets for organization. I always ended up meeting (and riding with) people who had bucket design panniers and everytime we each needed to get something out, I found myself waiting for them to dig around at the bottom of their pannies. The Thermarest pouch is very handy, not necessary by any means but it was nice to have a dedicated pouch to keep everything neat and tidy.

The very large handlebar bag is huge. It was perfect for me though because I kept my DSLR in there, with an extra lens (in a padded pouch), with my phone, maps, a snack, my mascot, notepad, pen, wallet, etc. Every time I got off the bike, I had 90% of the important/valuable stuff with me. The attachment system is gold.

Whatever bags you get, don't forget to get the raincovers too because it'll rain more often when you're on tour. ;) By the way, where do you live in Canada? What is your rough tour plan?

You need to start with facts and not opinions. As a design decision you need to get all your gear together, and start buying any stuff you don't have. Look at the size of the pile, organize it, and depending on whether you are lightweight obssessed or gear obssessed, start adding or subtracting. Make sure you have something to stand in for food.

I want to get four of those waste baskets that are rectangular plastic, and about pannier size, and through the year, as I repair or buy stuff, just throw it in the correct pail. That way it's easy to keep the pannier loads organized. Also if one takes something out, like a pump, or tools, put in an IOU for easy packing.

Once you have the load broken down into front and rear pannier size piles, go looking for bags. I understand the Arkels are well made, but they are gadget madness, and very heavy. I manage in much smaller paniers, but that isn't relevant what maters is for you to determine the load, then the method of carry. Don't just go buy some bag, and then determine what you carry based on the size of the bag, and how many subheadings you carry based on how many pockets. I'm not going to buy your file system from you. Maybe you have tons of file categories that are meaningless to me. Same here. Manufacturers like Arkel are all about price points and features, and that isn't the reality of the road. Also, with so many bells an whistles of course they leak and need covers...

Also, determine what you will carry on rack tops, and make sure the racks are long enough for those pieces. My tent is a microzoid, very small 20" package, so one needs either a pole carrier (don't like), or a long rear rack top.

I feel the same way about racks. I got out there with my low riders and found I couldn't pack them the way I wanted to (paniers where fine, but I wanted some load options). So now I am after different racks. That was obvious within a few hours of loading up and setting off. I only had 2 weeks, but you are off on a long trip , do your homework.

Anyone try out the waterproof MECs? I don't really like the texture, but if they were bulletproof...

I love my Arkels. Bombproof. Great "fold-down" design. I often just left them on the bike overnight with the rain covers (essential) on. If using low-riders on the front, I found the mesh outer pocket on the Arkels had a tendency to rub against curbs a bit unless the bag was absolutely full. If you're in Regina, drop in to Dutch Cycle. They have given several club members here a great price. I can check prices if you want - email me.

I second giving Wayne at the touring store a call. He patiently went over everything with me and was cheaper in price for a package deal than anyone else. He can answer any questions about any concerns.

+1 for Wayne and the TouringStore. (http://www.thetouringstore.com/) I got a set of Lone Peaks last year and have been very happy with them. I use them mostly for my daily commute: crappy roads, heat and cold, rain, and me packing way too much into them. Recommended.

I´m gonna go with these http://www.carradice.co.uk Not sure where you can get them in the US. also, the tubus racks feel really solid.
/erik

well i just need some "yes your right to do it" comments here, haha.

I have decided to not bother with the trailer, after being a bicycle cab cyclist for some time, and really growing to hate that feeling, the trailer although much light still pushes a guy around a bit. Building a wheel with some heavier gauge spokes and replacing hub bearings now and then isnt a big deal to me. so now time for panny's

i am 100% convinced with my decision to go with arkel.
but i thought for the hell of it, what does everyone think?

its alot of money for me, and my comming trip is intented to last as long as i have money, 400+ for panny's is steep. but, ive ridden my whole life, and will the rest of it. i keep saying that while justifying the cost. also the fact im supporting my countries economy is an aspect of my decision, and the fact the customer service is nearly the best i have ever witnessed ever. and therefore TRUST their warranty.

what do you use? and why?

now time for racks, if i could only afford tubus or OMM's/
ill probably go with axiom, any reason not to?

Personally, I go with the smallest bags I can get. I avoid bags with lots of pockets too. If you have large bags with lots of pockets, you end up feel like you need to fill them which, of course, means carrying more stuff then you really need. I use Ortlieb Classic Rollers. Very simple open bag without dividers or any unnecessary stuff. Also the attachment to the rack is simple, easy, rugged and rattle proof. They are slightly expandable for those times when you have to carry more food, etc., by simple rolling them a little less tightly. And they are absolutely waterproof! Now water gets in and none gets out...which can be a problem if you have wet clothing inside.

For internal organization, I put everything in ziplock bags. One day's riding clothes in each bag. That way I don't have to rummage through stuff to find what I need. I begain doing that when I was using less waterproof bags to keep my stuff dry but it's so convenient that I just kept doing it. It also solves the problem of having wet stuff in the bags.

Just about any rack will work. The Tubus are first rate but I've toured for years with Blackburns and an absolutely fabulous rack that came on my Miyata 610 that has taken everything I could throw at it. I've never had a rack failure of any kind. It happens occassionally but most of them are tough. I've not had any experience with the Axiom but it looks like they use a similar attachment to the Tubus. Adjustment to fit the bike should be easier than the usual flat metal stays that nearly everyone else uses. You could do worse.

Make sure racks are wide enough to keep panniers away from canti brake arms.

Anyone try out the waterproof MECs? I don't really like the texture, but if they were bulletproof...

These are my first choice at the moment. Once I buy my rack I'm bringing my bike into MEC, jamming the panniers full of newspaper or whatever, and checking clearances with them mounted on the bike. I'm in a tossup between getting the rear set and 2 front panniers, or just go with 4 identical front panniers. The front panniers are 18L each (78CAD+ tax each) and the rears are 23L each (179CAD+ tax for a pair) and have a little external pocket (doesn't seem all that useful).

I think I prefer them to the arkels and ortleibs given their pricepoint and features.

I will give a review if I get them. From just handling them they seem heavy duty and durable. They use a different material than the ortleibs which is thinner and less rubbery, but I do not see them failing any sooner than the ortleibs. The connection system seems alright but its a little fiddly. I had a hard time getting the panniers on and off of a rack they had sitting around but that may well have been because it was not connected to a bike and was empty.

You can get the Arkel T-42 and T-22. Much cheaper and lighter than their GT series. IMO, the GTs have too many pockets while the Ts are perfect.

Ortlieb

I've owned Kirtland, serratus, Lone Peak, Overlanders

Ortlieb is the best.

Wayne at the touring store has the best prices.

wow, now thats what im talking about. what a bunch of great reply's!

the one reason im going with the Arkels are the lack of pockets and gadgets. i chose the xm's because there thin nature designed for shorter chain stays (my trek 8000), yet deep capacity, and with the x brace rather then just one comp brace. it means alot to me when i phone a company and not only have they researched rack options that day, but have tons of info my particular setup in my. I like the idea of planning out all the things you will need in buckets then buying bags to fit that. however i plan on making and finding things along the way aswell. right now my list, would fill about 95-105 litres. without tent & bag. which will be put on top of the rear rack. i want to leave wit a bit of room. this trip will most likely last about half a year or more.

it kinda pains me about the negative comments on the axioms, i have actually just recently installed one of their rear disc racks and thought the cosntruction looked pretty good. and with over 150lb capacity thought it was fairly impressive. I really do try to support canadian companies, and axiom being a norco product and having really good experience with them in the past. i still might give them a shot. the choices i have for racks, are anyting norco or lambert carries (haha get it). so that means voyager and toppeak as well.

tool boy, you have mail!

wayne looks like a great guy, im just really not interested in buying across the boarder. two options with insane broker fees. lie, or pay out your ass. i dont feel like doing either anymore. (for example i am getting the 4 panny's from arkel shipped for about 10usd, cheapest ship i could find from states with 42+broker [65ish]).

tubus racks look so damn well thought out, hmm. i wonder if i have it in me to splurge anymore.

thanks everyone, keep them comming. and have a great day.

I have the Arkel XM-45 and XM-28. Both are very nice. I don't know how they compare to other bags, but what I like is the full-length zipper that allows you access the gear you need, which seems to always be in the bottom of the bag. No unloading of the bag. Pricy, yes, but I liked their design.

I agree with cyccommute about using ziplocks for internal organization. Not only do you get the waterproofing, but it is awfully nice to just grab a bag and head to the shower instead of rummaging through your bag looking for the shirt, the socks, the shorts . . . .

I have heard good things about Arkels but no direct experience.

The Ortliebs were still way cheaper buying from wayne than getting something in Canada.
I can't remeber what I paid, but I think I was only assessed GST, no duty. It was a good deal.

Just my $.02 worth:

I'm really happy with my Ortlieb rear panniers, seat bag and handlebar bag (w/camera insert). Sturdy, waterproof, nicely thought out, goes on and off the bike easily. From now on if I want to buy touring luggage for a bicycle it's going to be Ortlieb.

I will keep using my Vaude front panniers until they wear out, then get Ortliebs. They do the job but they are just not as nicely thought out as the Ortliebs.

The Carradice products that I've seen and used are nicely made too. There are situations like touring in the desert where a breathable fabric is useful, and where totally waterproof bags like the Ortliebs will not let wet clothing inside the bag dry out, like they would in a canvas bag. For these situations Carradice canvas panniers would be a better choice than Ortliebs. Carradice seat bags like the Nelson longflap are great for around town, commuting, and credit card tours.

I'm sure there are other good products out there, these are just bags that I've found to work well.

I love Arkel and OMM. However they don't love each other. The Arkels scratch up the OMMs powdercoat. Boo...

it kinda pains me about the negative comments on the axioms, i have actually just recently installed one of their rear disc racks and thought the cosntruction looked pretty good. and with over 150lb capacity thought it was fairly impressive.
I have been using an Axiom Journey Disc rear rack for about 18 months, and it is still rock solid. The finish on one of the seat stays supports has faded into a dark copper, but all the connections and bolts are holding up fine.
This is the one I have:

http://www.axiomgear.com/images/products/racks_and_cages/journey_disc.jpg

Arkels and Ortliebs are really top of the line.

But I'll tell you - the latest Performance panniers both front and rear and pretty darn good and REALLY cheap. I don't think it makes much sense to get anything better unless you're going to be a 10,000 mile a year tourist.

The "negative" comments I made about the Axioms were just about their front racks, and were from observation and not personal experience. It's just that on this last tour alone, I met two people who broke their Axiom front racks. One of them was right next to me when it happened too. We were riding to a campsite we were going to share, in the dark, when we both hit a 6" dip (old stream washout) in the road which we couldn't see. Boom!
-"Ugh! Man that sucked."
-"No kidding, I think I broke something!"

Sure enough, the outer frame on his front rack separated from the cross bar which bolts into the mid-fork eyelet. Same as the other person I met who broke her rack just a week earlier (she was riding with us at the time too).

I don't know of anybody who broke an Axiom rear rack, I don't think of the three people, actually 4 now that I think about it, who busted their rear racks had Axioms in the back. Theirs were generally the lower-end "no-name" racks which had flimsy horizontal struts break (not surprising given the weight we were all carrying) so that their whole rear assembly, panniers included, rotated behind the wheel and got dragged on the ground. I only met these people after they got a new rack or got their rack repaired in some way.

I've attached an image of the rack (I'm pretty sure) I saw that busted. I've indicated the spots where the welds broke. I don't know about any of the other Axiom racks, so I thought I should identify the specific one before I make it sound like all axiom front racks are dodgy.

I've used my Arkel T-22's for many years now without any problems. Great product and excellent customer service. There is a website I think is called RushLansings.com, that rates and compares all the different panniers. Had some good tips when I was first looking around for panniers.

Sorry that's lancerushing.com for pannier comparisions

the ortliebs were a second choice. i worry about there breathe ability tho. im going to be swimming alot on this trip. so i will have some damp things.

my trip planned is sitting at about 10g km. thats why i just want to get the best i can and not worry.

i forget what the front panny i was thinking of going with looked like, it may be that one. and honestly it doesnt look like it would want to break there, but i dont doubt you saw it, maybe some procedure saved time but isnt really standard for that type of bond.

and ya that was the rear disc one i put in the other week, like i said aswell, looked top notch.

the ortliebs were a second choice. i worry about there breathe ability tho. im going to be swimming alot on this trip. so i will have some damp things.

my trip planned is sitting at about 10g km. thats why i just want to get the best i can and not worry.

i forget what the front panny i was thinking of going with looked like, it may be that one. and honestly it doesnt look like it would want to break there, but i dont doubt you saw it, maybe some procedure saved time but isnt really standard for that type of bond.

and ya that was the rear disc one i put in the other week, like i said aswell, looked top notch.

Anything wet you just strap on the outside and it dries really fast.

Canadian sources are better than ever, but we still have to go to the US for some stuff. The Ort paniers just the front, cost more in TO than the set from the US. Never ship pver the border by UPS, sip USPS or don't complete the order. USPS/Canada Post is a flat 5 dollar fee, and they will charge you none, one, or both taxes as they prefer. However you ALWAYS pay both taxes on taxable stuff in Canada. It's a three part thing for ordering from the US: Check the item is cheaper (or not otherwise available), check the USPS Shipping cost, and make the combined price in canadian dollars is still cheaper than the Can pretax price. If so pull the trigger. you may pay tax when it arrives, but it's guranteed to be cheaper overall. About the only thing that can go wrong is if you are buying a non-us item from the US. Like Ort. But in 25 years of ordering fromt he US stuff like Japanese tools, I never have had that call made.

Also if you do any stuff by phone, be organized and brief. Canada toll free costs US suppliers a fortune, and they are cutting us off because not only does it cost more, like 10x, but we gab like Country Cousin at the town Fair.

Good bet is no aluminum racks. Want to talk about aluminum frames, stand back, you will get no end of grief. Well racks are the same deal, steel is real. If the Axiom was aluminum, it's not necesarilly the brand only that was wrong. I have had good luck with the old Blackburn rack, 20 years of comuting out of one of them. So aluminum isn't always bad, but the touring loads are heavier. Most of this stuff is at the margins.

Shiz, one thing about my MEC front cordura paniers is that even though the front one is tiny (look at page sixteen of the loaded pages), I get heel contact with it that I don't get with the larger rear panier, due to the cut-off, when I use it as my about town bag on the rear. So obviously I wouldn't get four of them.

Also I think the small front (not sure how it compares to the new ones) is really small for anything all that usefull. I travel light, but I do have the odd bulky item. I like to carry fresh food, occasionally I might get some bread, or some large juice packs, and with those small paniers, it's all I can do to get stuff in. I'm pretty disciplined so I don't worry about overpacking. I plan my packing so if I bring it I want it. And if anything i would put a bigger panier on the front. I don't pay much attention to the packing ratios, because I travel light, but in theory it's 60% weight front, not the reverse as often stated. So at the least, there isn't any reason to have a 60/40 rear large panier distribution. For instance I run about 6-7 pounds a panier + food. On the back I have my tent matress and bag. Thats probably about 5-10 pounds it's pretty hard to get stuff towards the front. Often food items won't fit into the front panniers. To hit those numbers one would almost need to put all four paniers in the front, three anyway.

... Anyone try out the waterproof MECs? I don't really like the texture, but if they were bulletproof...

i've been riding with them for maybe 7 or so years now. they're great. easy on/off, secure, stable, tuff as nails. leaks have never been an issue. if you don't need a bunch of pockets and doodads, i'd say they're unsurpassed. ;)

I'd go with the Arkels, as you'll note the short stays on you 8000 may give you some issues with heel clearance. I had to get the adjustable mod for my GT54's to scoot them back for my large feet to miss. I bought my Arkels from a Canandian ski shop (Stage II Nordic Centre 705-636-1098) Great to deal with, as I had visited them on occasions while sking the area for several years.

The rack is pretty much personal. I bought Bruce Gordons' for both the front and the back of my 520. Seemed pretty expensive at the time, but 12 years later I seem to forget the cost vs quality issue. I did have to adapt the front to fit the stock Trek fork though. Bruce is a great guy and answered all my emailed questions in a timely manner.

Hope this helps!
Best, John

right now my list, would fill about 95-105 litres. without tent & bag.

You're carrying too much stuff.

"You're carrying too much stuff."

"OH reason not the need!" - Lear.

Philso, I have the old MEC/Seratus paniers also. They just brought out some welded seam paniers that are supposed ot be waterproof like a bathtub.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442618864&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302693397&bmUID=1161969145571

Different material to the Ortlieb dry bag material.

During my first ten years of self-contained bike touring I tried six or seven different panniers and several different racks. Some failed due to poor materials and or poor execution. Breaking a Blackburn aluminum rear rack in Ecuador was not the high point of one trip nor was having panniers pop off a rack while venturing offroad for a tour.

Twenty years ago I settled on Gordon Racks and Robert Beckman Designs panniers. They were designed specifically to work together as a non-flexible extension of the bike. [Today both Bruce and Bob make their own racks and panniers with the same or improved excellent performance.]

They have proven to be cheap over the long haul. Their initial high price reflects their cottage industry one person shop situation. I prefer to support individual craftsmen rather than large corporations making everything in China or other low wage countries. Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

I use them daily for commuting and shopping and then on tour on and offroad. My last long ride was the Divide Ride. Give them a consideration if you are into touring for the long haul. You will not be sorry.

I have some 15-year-old REI Panniers and a matching handlebar bags. They've been great for me. They're top loading with a few pockets. With 4 panniers, pockets, and a handlebar bag, there's no reason I should ever have to dig deep into my panniers to find something, IF I'm organized. I usually spend the first few days of a tour settling on which things go where (is my book in the left front or right front?), and from then on I can find what I need quickly.

Decide which things you might need during a day's ride - rain gear, extra clothing, book, glasses, camera, wallet, Chapstick, handkerchief, sunscreen, etc. (am I forgetting anything?), then make sure you have it on top, and try to find a right/left, front/rear system that makes sense. Then learn it and follow it, and you'll have no difficulties. You don't need 20 gazillion pockets. That would probably just add to my confusion.

The Ziploc organizing system is great, by the way, and invaluable when it rains.

I can vouch for the Arkel XM45's. I bought a pair this year and am very happy with them. They are well thought out and well built. They mount and secure to the rack with confidence. I prefer the look of the XM's over the GT's and I think they arent as "busy" with pockets etc. My current front panniers are Axioms of approx the same size. They are obviously a lesser product but they do the trick and I actually use them as my around town/commuter bags when needed but Arkels they aint.

As for racks, I use a Surly Nice Rack on the rear and an OMM Ultimate Lowrider on the front. I also have a small, cheap front platform rack on the front. I would have prefered the Surly N/R front as well but it doesnt work ith discs. The OMM may be a bit of a pain when the front tire goes flat but it hasnt happened yet.

Stick with the Arkels and support a great company.

I haven't read all the previous replies so this could be redundant:

I put my money into good wheels and good racks. I bought a large Jandd touring rack for the back and a Old Man Mountain low rider for the front. Both exceeded $100 but I felt it justifiable. The Panniers are kind of secondary in my opinion. I used a pair of Jandd expedition bags on the rear and Large MEC's on the front (43 L?). Both held up exceptionally well. One thing to consider when buying a rack and bags is foot size. When riding with the rack that shipped with my bike, my heel would strike the rear bags because the rack was too small and bags too big.

And someone mentioned the small pocket on the large MEC bags being seemingly useless. I can vouch that those cylindrical pockets are very handy for hauling bottles of water and fuel canisters! Don't sell them short.

"You're carrying too much stuff."

"OH reason not the need!" - Lear.

Philso, I have the old MEC/Seratus paniers also. They just brought out some welded seam paniers that are supposed ot be waterproof like a bathtub.

http://www.mec.ca/Products/product_detail.jsp?PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=845524442618864&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302693397&bmUID=1161969145571

Different material to the Ortlieb dry bag material.

those are the ones i'm talking about. they came out some time ago, but were then unavailable for a few years, then came out again. radio frequency welded. if radio waves can do that to plastics, imagine what tv waves can do the human brain! anyway, they're very good. if i were going to get into tech-weanie whiney chihuahua type mode, i'd say that a more thermally neutral color like gray would keep things like a banana or some cheese from baking in the summer heat. also, the seam tape along the drawstring seam is showing signs of peeling off. this might sound major, but: i've been using them not only on tours, but for everyday shopping so they've been in constant daily use for years and, this seam isn't really exposed to water anyway. if you get them, i doubt that you'll be dissapointed. ;)

thanks for all this awsome info.

the bad talking aluminum thing...i hope my poor trek stays strong. its lasted atleast 100.000 miles so far, but that is sort of what scares me!

so im a welder of sorts. im thinking about making my own steel racks from chromo or stainless, anyone have any guidience? this will illiminate the whole "is it long enough" or strong enough talk.

barrett

Philso, Thanks for the review! I wish they had yellow!

so im a welder of sorts. im thinking about making my own steel racks from chromo or stainless, anyone have any guidience? this will illiminate the whole "is it long enough" or strong enough talk.

They look a bit heavy, but this site might give you some ideas. http://www.bicyclinglife.com/HowTo/HeavyDutyRacks.htm
I brazed up a front rack, but it was too heavy for everyday use. Here is the thread on that: http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=165488&

I'm making my own racks also. I'm currently working on the front one, but I'n stalled because I don't have the front end it has to fit on.

I made the pictured part out of 4130 tubing I bent, and I have it tacked, with my TIG, but had to stop that prematurely when my argon bottle crashed. It's really strong as is, and I will braze or weld the other joints as required.

What you see in the picture is the right side, The tubbing at the top gets trimmed back almost to the curve and then slugged, to the left side. This is one of those details that will be a lot more custom when I wait for the front end to be finished. Overall effect will be like a Sakkit rack. Long way to go but it's all straight tube from here.

When finished I will be able to mount large front paniers, and I will have a top rack to hold a sleeping bag or small tent. When making one's own stuff one can easily design it so it's level, and fits around brakes, mounts generator lights, etc...

tester and peter, thanks

peters got what i have in mind. as many "one peice" sections as possible, and welded.

peter, ive welded 4130 with my oxy, but i am wondering how to heat treat it after. is it a must i get a infra heat gun? and do you have any figure? i presume a high heat, water, then a lower heat, then water. i typically heat it till its glowing brightish, water, then a real dull, then water. but that is ALL guess work and a bit of info from "how its made" tv show,haha.

good lookin bends tho, keep me updated! bottle crash? i hope your alright!

im an ex bodybuilder, so the power isnt the problem to push this weight, my endurance on the other hand might proove to need some work. maybe if i lost about 50 pounds! every pound i loose i can carry!

so im a welder of sorts. im thinking about making my own steel racks from chromo or stainless, anyone have any guidience? this will illiminate the whole "is it long enough" or strong enough talk.
Use chrome-moli steel tubes - very thin (you can get away with 20 mil walls but you'll probably look for .040)- and usually you can get away with low temperature braze and using a NONREACTIVE flux.

If you make your racks get the Panniers first so that you can make the rack exactly fitting the pannier without any chaffing.

Racks almost always break at the connection points so making these strong and secure it the idea.

Use chrome-moli steel tubes - very thin (you can get away with 20 mil walls but you'll probably look for .040)- and usually you can get away with low temperature braze and using a NONREACTIVE flux.

If you make your racks get the Panniers first so that you can make the rack exactly fitting the pannier without any chaffing.

Racks almost always break at the connection points so making these strong and secure it the idea.
i need numbers like that, thanks! id be lost without folks like you. and about the connect points, i agree with steel that is really the case, and i am going to make sure all is considered in terms of possible pressure factors, maybe do some reiforcing on potential hazard spots. alu on the other hand, well ive had a 7000 series alu fork snap in half like glass once, no where near a weld. alu scares me.

also why am i seeing so many stainless racks? why stainless and not cromo? you never see stainless frames for a reason. why racks?

This stuff is either annealed or normalized in native state, and you don't want to heat treat it post construction, and you never want to shock it with water unless you are making a hole punch out of it, or some similar tool. You could heat treat it of course, but that isn't the way it goes in most applications in the bike or airframe field.

This tubing is perfectly strong as welded. Oxy welding probably prefered, though TIG is absolutely wonderful, and even stick will work, you just have to be a pretty darn good stick welder. There are some 1/32" rods for stick though they aren't cheap, I think they actually denominate them as 1/16" but the wire core is thinner than normal.

Thanks for the concern, what I meant to say was I ran out argon, no harm done.

I like some rack ideas, as per Arvon, Sakkitt/Beckman, Bruce Gordon, etc... But by the time I have run the ideas through my experiences, needs, interpertations, and matched up my gear, I don't think it will be too derivative, it certainly won't be a copy, I should be so lucky. It's not a marvelous cost savings either. Each rack side has nearly 6 feet of tubing in it, and probably another 6 feet to finish, at about 3 dollars a foot, plus consumables and powdercoating, brazeons, it isn't cheap. I may use epoxy paint, and that would save some coin.

This isn't

Alu is a weird material, it works great for some and collapses for others. Many serious tourist will not use an aluminum rack, and yet the rack sellected by adventure cycle, and developed for touring in the mountains uses 3/8" alu tubing. Go figure. Overall the only problem with Chromo is that it rusts. but if one can work out a coating scheme that will work, or pony up for powder, it's easy to work with and very strong. It's also an expensive rack, so one's work is rewarded with a premium product.

I haven't seen any stainless racks, silver alu ones, but not stainless. However I have started a stainless rack for myself. It's really an experiment. It uses 1/4" bar, admitedly a little heavy, but it has the advantage of being easy to bend, weld, and it doesn't need a finish. If I could find an appropriate tubing I would go for that. Bar puts the project within the range of anyone who can weld at all, and there isn't any complex tube bending or coping. Also 304 SS is locally available almost anywhere while aircraft tubing is a little more limited.

I haven't seen any stainless racks, silver alu ones, but not stainless.

Tubus (http://www.tubus.net/eng/index.php) and Axiom (http://www.axiomgear.com/racks_rear/tour_du_monde.php) make stainless steel front and rear racks. The Axiom specs are just wacko, but comparing Tubus stainless steel with their steel models, the stainless ones are typically heavier and have lower load ratings than the comparable steel ones. Of course, they have some asthetic appeal (if you like silver racks) and they won't corrode as quickly.

I should add that I don't have any experience with stainless steel racks from any manufacturer. I was just responding to Peterpan1's comments that he hadn't seen any stainless racks.

ya dubes i saw that 140kg!!!!!!!! load rating

thats over 300lbs!!!!!

where as the tubus stainless rack has something like a 40kg. makes ya wonder. where is the truth.

Tubus (http://www.tubus.net/eng/index.php) and Axiom (http://www.axiomgear.com/racks_rear/tour_du_monde.php) make stainless steel front and rear racks. The Axiom specs are just wacko, but comparing Tubus stainless steel with their steel models, the stainless ones are typically heavier and have lower load ratings than the comparable steel ones. Of course, they have some asthetic appeal (if you like silver racks) and they won't corrode as quickly.


We have a Tubus Luna (stainless) that we've been using for many years. You can't see more than an inch of it but it's on the rear of the Schwinn, 3 bikes in at www.fullyloadedtouring.com (Where you can see about 250 pairs of panniers out in their element).

The rack has seen a bunch of use beyond our touring since she commutes with the same bike. Probably not as versatile as my Tubus Cargo but it's a nice clean design.

Tailwinds,

I have the Axiom Lasalle panniers from a few years back. I've done quite a bit of touring with them and I think they are great!!

If I were in the market for another set of panniers, I'd go for the newest version of the Axiom Lasalles because they've got one or two small features which mine don't.

However, I won't likely be in the market for new panniers for a long time because despite the fact that I've spent a lot of time travelling with, and living out of, my Lasalles, they are still in good condition ... almost like new!