BF whiners about cops

[banerjek]

Hey BF cops!

What's your take on all these BF members complaining about harassment by the cops? In my past, I aslo felt harassed, Later I decided that my attitude brought my problems on me because once I took that huge chip off my shoulder, my confrontations with society (and the cops) suddenly ceased.

So what's the scoop? Do you know of cops who actually pick on cyclists for piddly violations or do you think that their problems are largely self inflicted?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

So what's the scoop? Do you know of cops who actually pick on cyclists for piddly violations or do you think that their problems are largely self inflicted?
In my opinion the scoop is: The issue of cops picking on cyclists is grossly exaggerated Internet chatter, and are mostly the product of various characters repeating the same various rumors, fabrications and speculations they dredge up from Googling the Internet. The rare first person experiences are extrapolated into a police pogram on the oppressed bicyclists of the community by ranters with an agenda.

[galen_52657]

I think most cops simply ignore cyclists. Only time they would show any interest is if you are sprawled out in an intersection, bleeding profusely and holding up traffic. And then, the cops would still be more interested in directing traffic and letting the paramedics deal with you.

[LittleBigMan]

I don't really have a take. But I do know that no cops have ever harrassed me on my bike (though maybe a few motorists have over the years.) I've been spoken to twice by police, both times the officers were friendly and only seemed to be concerned for my safety.

No problems, here.

[fordfasterr]

I have been accosted once by a cop =)

The rest of my confrontations have been with cagers.

[chipcom]

Cops, like the population in general, consist of good folks, jerks and everything in between, though cops tend to be pretty cynical and get ingrained with an 'us vs them' mentality. First impression is everything, if you come off like a creep, they'll treat you like a creep, if you are courteous and friendly, they will generally be courteous and friendly.

[derath]

I always try to give cops the benefit of the doubt.

They exist, at least in theory to help protect us, the citizens. For their trouble/sacrifice/putting themselves in harms way, they generally are way underpaid.

I can't imagine in this world what it must be like to have to worry if the guy you stopped for speeding is gonna pull a gun and blow you away. It happens so cops have to be wary all the time.

I understand they are generally gruff, call it rude. Often this is designed specifically to keep us a little scared. Mostly to ward off my statement above. It is a double edged sword. Be nice and let your guard down with the wrong person and you die.

I have several friends who are cops. 100% of them became cops out of a desire to serve their community. And it is a thankless job most of the time.

-D

[Bikepacker67]

Cops, like the population in general, consist of good folks, jerks and everything in between

Hmmmm... I don't think that they are a representative sample of the overall society.
I believe that folks with certain dispositions gravitate towards positions of power.

Most times those characteristics are noble and idealistic, but often enough they are much darker.

[DataJunkie]

When I was a teenager they were my worst enemy.
Then I ran a food establishment they were my best friend.

All in all I would agree with chipcom's statement. In my own personal experience I have found them to consist more of the good folks than jerks or in between.

[chipcom]

Hmmmm... I don't think that they are a representative sample of the overall society.
I believe that folks with certain dispositions gravitate towards positions of power.

Most times those characteristics are noble and idealistic, but often enough they are much darker.

How is that different from someone joining the military, or becoming a fireman, or a politician, or a government employee, or a manager, or many other occupations?

[chipcom]

When I was a teenager they were my worst enemy.

Me too...and my dad was a cop! :eek:

[Bikepacker67]

How is that different from someone joining the military, or becoming a fireman, or a politician, or a government employee, or a manager, or many other occupations?

Whats different? Except for the military, in none of the others are you packing.

But I do put politicos in the same basket, because the dark side I mention is about having a sense of being above the law.

[chipcom]

Whats different? Except for the military, in none of the others are you packing.

But I do put politicos in the same basket, because the dark side I mention is about having a sense of being above the law.

From my experience, the sense of being above the law comes after they get on the job, and it also happens to firemen, military, government employees, etc. Indeed, most Americans have at least some attitude of being above the law - or at least that it should not be applied to them. Your average person getting pulled over for speeding is a good example.

Yes, being armed is one difference. Luckily, instances of even the worst running around shooting people for no reason are pretty rare in relation to the total number of armed police and military...during peactime, within the confines of our borders.

[jcm]

I would rather have a police officer living next door than a CEO or a politician...

[Bikepacker67]

most Americans have at least some attitude of being above the law - or at least that it should not be applied to them. Your average person getting pulled over for speeding is a good example.


LOL... I think those are two different mindsets:

Civilian Speeding: I won't get caught
PO Speeding: It doesn't matter if I get caught.

[Geraldo]

I used to work as a medic with a SWAT unit, so I got to know a lot of cops pretty well. In general, they are just like everyone else. Their job creates a certain cynicism, but so does every other job that requries someone to deal with the public.

Remember that just to get hired the aspiring LEO must pass a general knowledge test, a physical agility test, psychological screening, criminal background check,drug test, possibly a polygraph, general background check (credit history, interviews with family neighbors, teachers, employers, references), a medical exam, and then interview with the chiefs. We went through the same process on the FD, and by the time I got hired, everyone I knew had commented that they had been interviewed by someone from the city.

That said, some badge heavy dicks get through, and they are the ones who make life miserable, not only for civilians, but often for their supervisors and coworkers.

[sggoodri]

In my experience, police in NC who know the law (the actual law, not the taboos and rumors about the law) treat cyclists fairly.

A lot of police here don't know the law regarding cyclists, and so there have been a few harassment problems involving police telling cyclists to get out of the road or out of the way of motorists in narrow lanes. These incidents can have a chilling effect on cycling. But once these police learn the law, specifically how the department expects them to treat the law, the problem stops.

The important point is that getting police to understand the law requires a much less confrontational approach than an improperly stopped or harassed cyclist is likely to feel like using. It is best done with polite follow-up communication with the department, including a badge number. If one can get past that obstacle, then constructive things happen.

[chipcom]

LOL... I think those are two different mindsets:

Civilian Speeding: I won't get caught
PO Speeding: It doesn't matter if I get caught.

Ha, that may be true back east, but as I found out the hard way during my time out west, many cops (especially state cops) don't give a rats arse if you got a badge and write you anyway. In a small town, then you get the 'scandal' of being a cop and being in the blotter.

[Bikepacker67]

Ha, that may be true back east

Perhaps.
In the Northeast, especially.

[AlmostTrick]

I've never been harassed by a cop. I've had them pass me on roads where I often get honks from ignorant cagers for taking the lane, and they never had a problem with it. I like when this happens because it shows that at least the officer understands the law. It may even cause a motorist in the vicinity to reconsider his/her judgment that bicycles don't belong on the road. That, or when they get to work they'll tell their coworkers that they seen a cyclist in the middle of the road holding up traffic and the lazy cop didn't even do anything about it! :(

[galen_52657]

How is that different from someone joining the military, or becoming a fireman, or a politician, or a government employee, or a manager, or many other occupations?

No different.

[genec]

Hey BF cops!

What's your take on all these BF members complaining about harassment by the cops? In my past, I aslo felt harassed, Later I decided that my attitude brought my problems on me because once I took that huge chip off my shoulder, my confrontations with society (and the cops) suddenly ceased.

So what's the scoop? Do you know of cops who actually pick on cyclists for piddly violations or do you think that their problems are largely self inflicted?

I don't know why others feel "picked on." I myself have been stopped twice for violations on bike... and both times I left with just a warning. Both times I was very co-operative. Whenever I am stopped by police, I always treat them with respect, answer any questions I can without outright incriminating myself, and try to be co-operative... after all, they carry the guns.

I think responding in a snotty way... no matter how much you are in the right, is a bad thing to do. Simple questioning of the situation and documenting what you can, will lead to better results. Passivity is better than confrontation. (didn't you folks learn anything from the 60's sit-ins)

[randya]

Harassment of cyclists in Portland is a way of life for the local traffic cops. They brutalized Critical Mass riders for many years and now they are performing selective enforcement actions against bicycle commuters. Maybe it's just growing pains associated with the large increases in the number of cyclists on Portland's streets, but it is definitely real and not imagined.

[Keith99]

Cops, like the population in general, consist of good folks, jerks and everything in between, though cops tend to be pretty cynical and get ingrained with an 'us vs them' mentality. First impression is everything, if you come off like a creep, they'll treat you like a creep, if you are courteous and friendly, they will generally be courteous and friendly.

+100

Especially the last line. In my experience Cops are more giving back the attitude they get than most. I did meat one jerk pair once, in a car, not on a bike. And a couple of other instances where it seemed that the shift briefing must have been 'write more tickets'. But much more often than not if I was courteous they were also.

[chipcom]

Harassment of cyclists in Portland is a way of life for the local traffic cops. They brutalized Critical Mass riders for many years and now they are performing selective enforcement actions against bicycle commuters. Maybe it's just growing pains associated with the large increases in the number of cyclists on Portland's streets, but it is definitely real and not imagined.

I've heard tell that bus passengers have a thing about brutalizing cyclists in Portland too. ;)

[randya]

I've heard tell that bus passengers have a thing about brutalizing cyclists in Portland too. ;)
That's another story altogether.

I forgot to add that the Portland Police have been actively harassing bicycle messengers recently, as well.

And then there's this, unrelated to bicyclists, but troubling none the less:

http://www.portlandtribune.com/news/story.php?story_id=116190598764550900

[bschoen]

OK - I've looked at all the posts and don't see one reply by a copso far. Here goes.

1. I've been a cop for 24 years now and currently run the Patrol division in my department. Never have we conducted an enforcement action aimed at cyclists. In fact, I myself have only written one ticket to a cyclist over my 24 years. The guy ran a stop sign between cars on the cross street at about 25 mph. He deserved it. Had a cow when he saw the fine amount - but deserved it non-the-less.

2. I liked to comment about reflecting the attitude we're (cops) presented with. Though I try to discurage this among my guys - they do fall prey to it occasionally.

3. I'm particularly fond of the comments by those posters who indicate that if they're polite to the officers, they're treated with respect in return. It almost always works that way. Anyone who thinks otherwise didn't listen to their mother when she told them about first impressions.

4. A few of the guys I work with are into guns - collecters. However the majority could care less. In fact, the only reason I have a handgun is because the department gives me one. I do hunt - and own a few shotguns/rifles - but the only handguns I have are for work. And I don't carry it most days since I'm a desk jockey.

5. Cops brutalizing cyclists? I doubt it. That would be a violation of so many federal/state laws that the lawsuits would be flying. Not to mentioninvestigations by the Mayhaps the definition of "brutalized" is a it different up there in the rainy pacific NW. Think Aamidiu Diala (SP?) in New York a few years ago. Now that's "brutalized". Yuck!!!

6. There are a few of the "authoritarian" types that gravitate to teh job. They're easy to recognize and are in the vast minority. I'd estimate (off the cuff here) less than 5%.

Things may be different elsewhere, but here in the midwest, that's the way it is.

Have a good day all.

Brad

[randya]

Cops brutalizing cyclists? I doubt it.
This has happened on Critical Mass Rides all over the country. NYC. San Francisco. Seattle. Portland. Buffalo NY. Santa Cruz. Winnepeg Canada. Other cities also. All very well documented for those that care to take the time to do the research.

[genec]

This has happened on Critical Mass Rides all over the country. NYC. San Francisco. Seattle. Portland. Buffalo NY. Santa Cruz. Winnepeg Canada. Other cities also. All very well documented for those that care to take the time to do the research.

Devils advocate here... can you show me any documented harassment that did not arise first from violations on the cyclists' part?

I tried to show someone here on BF the same sort of harassment, only to find that every instance had some form of violation first from the cyclist.

I will admit however that the violence that arose from some instances did not seem to be in scale to the "crime." The actual "crimes" tended to be pretty petty.

[TRaffic Jammer]

My experience with the police have been nothing but positive after years of skateboarding where I shouldn't be and messing. I do subscribe to the "Yes Sir, no Sir, three bags full Sir." school of respectful discourse. This allowed me to roll away warned after 3 consecutive high speed red light cooks, and untold other infractions. Amazing how they can radio ahead to bike cops block your path. Be respectful to your police, and they will be to you. Make sure bicycle is written on the ticket so you don't get dinged points off your licence.

[randya]

I will admit however that the violence that arose from some instances did not seem to be in scale to the "crime." The actual "crimes" tended to be pretty petty.
Exactly. How many motorists get dragged from their cars, handcuffed, pepper sprayed and arrested for running a light?

[banerjek]

I've heard tell that bus passengers have a thing about brutalizing cyclists in Portland too. ;)
I was in Portland a few months ago. Never saw so many bikes in an American metropolitan area (though it'll never be anywhere near the number you'll see in China).

You'd think that between the atmosphere of oppression and violence and the constantly raging controversies over nit picky things like whether bikes in a city with some reasonably steep hills need brakes, there'd be fewer cyclists there. Portlanders must be another breed altogether to cope with such abuse.....

[Geraldo]

Exactly. How many motorists get dragged from their cars, handcuffed, pepper sprayed and arrested for running a light?

You saw this happen to cyclists? Or are you repeating a story you heard? Is there video/audio of the entire incident from start to finish?

[San Rensho]

Devils advocate here... can you show me any documented harassment that did not arise first from violations on the cyclists' part?

I tried to show someone here on BF the same sort of harassment, only to find that every instance had some form of violation first from the cyclist.

I will admit however that the violence that arose from some instances did not seem to be in scale to the "crime." The actual "crimes" tended to be pretty petty.

I was pulled over by a cop for riding in the center of the lane on a divided road with 2 lanes in each direction. Speed limit was 30-35.

I had led a group of about 7-10 cars from a light and in about 3 blocks, only one car had passed me. There was plenty of room to pass me, an entire lane, but I was moving about as fast as traffic was and cars just weren't passing me. Cop gets on the bullhorn and says "move over to the right of the lane". I stop and wait for him to come up to me and told him to give me a ticket if I was violating the law. He chickened out.

So theres a case where I did not violate the law at all and I was harrassed by a cop.

[genec]

I was pulled over by a cop for riding in the center of the lane on a divided road with 2 lanes in each direction. Speed limit was 30-35.

I had led a group of about 7-10 cars from a light and in about 3 blocks, only one car had passed me. There was plenty of room to pass me, an entire lane, but I was moving about as fast as traffic was and cars just weren't passing me. Cop gets on the bullhorn and says "move over to the right of the lane". I stop and wait for him to come up to me and told him to give me a ticket if I was violating the law. He chickened out.

So theres a case where I did not violate the law at all and I was harrassed by a cop.

OK, but hearsay only... remember, I asked for documented cases. A ticket would have been documentation. I wonder what would have happened if you continued on that road.

[randya]

You saw this happen to cyclists? Or are you repeating a story you heard? Is there video/audio of the entire incident from start to finish?
I personally saw it happen in Portland, yes. There's pics on the web from the SF, NYC, Buffalo and other incidents around the country. Most links are probably already available on BF if you do a search on older Critical Mass threads.

[genec]

I personally saw it happen in Portland, yes. There's pics on the web from the SF, NYC, Buffalo and other incidents around the country. Most links are probably already available on BF if you do a search on older Critical Mass threads.

But none of that "evidence" shows what happened prior to the arrest... were the cyclists just innocently riding down the lane when the police decided to violently attack them?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

So theres a case where I did not violate the law at all and I was harrassed by a cop.
Apparantly being harrassed once and a police force bent on brutalization means the same thing to some whiners. And its not being accosted either. Confused thinking doesn't create reality.

[randya]

But none of that "evidence" shows what happened prior to the arrest... were the cyclists just innocently riding down the lane when the police decided to violently attack them?
In my opinion, yes; but search the archives, check the links and decide for yourself.

[Geraldo]

But none of that "evidence" shows what happened prior to the arrest

Exactly. What transpired before the arrest? Actually the best thing would be to see the arrest report and affidavit. It would also be interesting to see the disposition of the cases. I know that's probably not a reality on a net forum, but then we would see the other side of the story.

There are at least two possiblities: 1) There has been systematic prejudice, abuse, and false arrest directed towards peace loving cyclists. 2) A group with an axe to grind pushes LEOs to the limit in multiple jurisdictions and the response is predictable. Moreover, after it happens in a few cities, LE agencies have seen the news and received the bulletins, and see Critical Mass as a problem or threat.

[banerjek]

But none of that "evidence" shows what happened prior to the arrest... were the cyclists just innocently riding down the lane when the police decided to violently attack them?
You're not trying to suggest that anyone would do something provocative at a CM event are you? It's lucky that someone just happened to have a camera on when things went sour. Dumb luck about missing the first part though.....

[dave80909]

Sorry, but I have definately been harrassed by police.

There are way too many of them in this town..I am voting to cut
their budget at any opportunity I get.

[Geraldo]

I am voting to cut their budget at any opportunity I get.


I hate to keep injecting reality, but you'll probably have to run for and be elected to council in order to do that, as budgets usually aren't subject to popular vote. It's also best to keep your plans quiet until after you win the election.

[randya]

You're not trying to suggest that anyone would do something provocative at a CM event are you? It's lucky that someone just happened to have a camera on when things went sour. Dumb luck about missing the first part though.....
It's just a bike ride. In my experience the participants do not go out of their way to provoke the police and have no control over police behavior.

[banerjek]

2) A group with an axe to grind pushes LEOs to the limit in multiple jurisdictions and the response is predictable.
Who could have predicted this would happen? It reminds me of an incident I was involved in many years ago, though I was not on a bike at the time.

I was peacefully walking about in the countryside. All of a sudden, a swarm of hornets came after me even though I was almost a full stone's throw from their nest. I know I was only slightly less than a stone's throw away, because I had been curious about the distance and had been trying to measure with some rocks I just happened to have in my pocket.

After this completely unprovoked attack, I told everyone about my experience, but they just wanted to blame the victim.... :D

[Keith99]

Who could have predicted this would happen? It reminds me of an incident I was involved in many years ago, though I was not on a bike at the time.

I was peacefully walking about in the countryside. All of a sudden, a swarm of hornets came after me even though I was almost a full stone's throw from their nest. I know I was only slightly less than a stone's throw away, because I had been curious about the distance and had been trying to measure with some rocks I just happened to have in my pocket.

After this completely unprovoked attack, I told everyone about my experience, but they just wanted to blame the victim.... :D

Yet last year I was on a trail with 2 dogs and walked within 1 foot of a bee hive and they didn't bother me. Guess it was just that the hornets just had it in for you. Why else could I get so much closer to the bee hive?

[trekets]

5. Cops brutalizing cyclists? I doubt it. That would be a violation of so many federal/state laws that the lawsuits would be flying.


I think brutalized is too strong of a word, but I was definately harassed by a cop.

http://75.126.17.35/showthread.php?t=104611

What happened to me was not embellished at all. In fact, what happened was worse than I was able to describe in writing.

Cops are human and make mistakes like everyone else, and I have great respect for most of them, but a cop who abuses his authority is as bad as a criminal and should lose their job. Unfortunately, most people who have been victims of a cops abuse, myself included, do not do anything about it out of fear of repercussions.

One of the reasons many of us bring out issues of abuse by cop on bike forums is that bicyclists are too often treated as second class users of public roads by cagers and when a cop whose job it is to protect us, violates our rights, or ignores our rights like many cagers, it makes it all the more infuriating. Cops should understand our right to the road and protect our right to the road as they should for pedestrians.

I think cops should be held to higher standards because of the power that goes along with the job and when they violate someone's rights there should be severe consequences. Read "The Innocent Man" by John Grisham, his first non-fiction book if you want to get a good idea of how brutal some cops can be.

[pyze-guy]

I was pulled over by a cop for riding in the center of the lane on a divided road with 2 lanes in each direction... Cop gets on the bullhorn and says "move over to the right of the lane"....So theres a case where I did not violate the law at all and I was harrassed by a cop.

And how is what you described harresment? A cop asked you to move and you claim you were harrassed? Yikes.

From what you described he should have told the cars to get moving, but I fail to see harrasment. What I see is an agenda.

[pyze-guy]

And it is a thankless job most of the time.

I agree. Seeing people at their worst almost all the time as well. How many times do people really get excited to see the police. I subscribe to the yes sir/no ma'am approach as well. Never had a single problem with any of Torontos Finest. What does bother me is the way bikers seem to want to be treated the same as cars with regards to right of way, lane use etc, but have no regard for the law when it is an inconvinence for them, blowing stop signs/red lights, wearing mp3's, no helmet, and get mad and bad mouth the police after. Amazes me.

[dave80909]

I hate to keep injecting reality, but you'll probably have to run for and be elected to council in order to do that, as budgets usually aren't subject to popular vote. It's also best to keep your plans quiet until after you win the election.

Heh-

In Colorado, in order for our over-bloated govt. (including a very fat and happy FD and PD)
to spend tax surplus, or raise taxes it has to be approved by voters, and they (govt) totaly hate it.
check out our ref. 200 -201 on the ballot here. I'm voting for it.