Touring - Surly LHT: Does it have a rival?

I've about concluded that Surly Long Haul Trucker is a good fit for me, my budget and my intended use.

Does the LHT have a rival? In the same price range? If so, what is it?

It depends upon what you're gonna hang on it, and what wheels you plan to put under it. But that's the beauty of it--you can equip it the way you want. The Trek 520 or one of the C'dale T bikes might compare, again depending upon how you plan to build up an LHT. I decided to build up an LHT and like it the way it is, thumb shifters, silly treking bar and all...

REI Randonee is a great deal with decent parts. I have a LHT and a Randonee in the house. The Randonee frame is just as nice as the LHT and as a bonus it has a higher BB so you don't get as much pedal strike. In the spring the Randonee was $999 - 20% off with one off those coupons they put out 3 times a year it was $799.

If you want to pimp out your bike with high end parts go with a LHT frame or maybe a Kogswell frame. I had quality issues with two LHT frames I rec'd so I would not go back for another, but other people seem to have been luckier and are very happy with theirs.

WILL the LHT have a rival in 2007?

No.

LHT, complete bike, 1,000 bucks and change in 2007 from your local QBP bike shop.

Beko:

Do you guys sell those down there at Greg's?

Beko:

Do you guys sell those down there at Greg's?

Unfortunately, atleast for MTB (only "Beko" will get that), we don't JCM. Although we may be able to special order one for you! Come down and talk to us! It gets lonely in the winter!

See, it's starting already, the LHT threads are getting poluted with OEM bike package stuff.

For now it's just a frame and at 350+ I can't think of any frame I would prefer. I really like my Urbanite, up here in Canada, and I want to try the Nashbar frame which is around 160 with the right sale (though I think they tucked them out of sight a few weeks back when they had their 20% off sale). The Kogswell Porteur is right for the kind of person (it fits) and who wants to make a quirky statement, but the wheels alone should take it off the page. The LHT is a very basic frame though, and some percentage of pepoel don't fit it well and should spring for a basic tailored frame.

the only problem with the kogswell porteur is it is made for 650B wheels.....idiotic.


if the porteur was built to either 26" or 700c standards, it would be a different story.


like the 'blade said,

Gregg's can order one for you.

Fuji makes a steel-frame touring bike as well. :)

http://www.fujibikes.com/2007/bikes.asp?id=290&subcat=2

the only problem with the kogswell porteur is it is made for 650B wheels.....idiotic.


if the porteur was built to either 26" or 700c standards, it would be a different story.


like the 'blade said,

Gregg's can order one for you.


Two years ago, I would have agreed with you. Today, having first ridden on 650Bs and then having designed the P/R around them, my experience is that they're PERFECT for just about everything.

700C is a good size if you want to use 25-28mm tubulars. And 559s are OK kids and small women. But if you're carrying a load (or if you are a load), 36mm+ 650B tires offer a very smooth ride.

It isn't 1970 any more. Alloy rims and clincher tires are now the run of the mill and we can make them any way we want. And modern 650B rims and tires offer outstanding performance.

If anyone is interested, let me know. We have a growing network of dealers who have bikes that you can go and test ride. Five minutes on 650Bs will make you a believer.

Call this an ad if you like. But it's a public service announcement from where I am.

http://kogswell.com/images/BQpap.gif

I was just about to order a LHT when a 1989 Specialized CrossRoads hybrid if fair shape appeared at the local thrift store for $5. Someone had tried to use it as a mountain bike and had beaten the wheels off it. The only missing accessories when compared to the LHT were the third water bottle mount and the spare spoke hanger. It came with a Shimano BioPace crank with 48,38, and 28, chain rings and 175mm crank arms which is perfect for a loaded touring bike and is something I would have had a hard time finding even if I were looking for something like that. New wheels, 35mm tires, front rack, rear rack, and tune up got it on the road and it's a great loaded touring bike for not very much money.

Nice bike Mr Kogswell. The problem with 650 tires is finding them!

Nice bike Mr Kogswell. The problem with 650 tires is finding them!


Truthiness.

People are snapping up 650B tires and rims so fast, no one can keep them in stock.

The Kogswell is a great bike and would make a great commuter.

Truthiness.

People are snapping up 650B tires and rims so fast, no one can keep them in stock.

Honestly, while working in the parts department at Gregg's I have never sold ANY 650 tire or tube, let alone wheel.

Honestly, while working in the parts department at Gregg's I have never sold ANY 650 tire or tube, let alone wheel.


No one sold any mountain bike tires or wheels in 1980.

Five years later mountain bikes accounted for 80% of a dealer's business.

Be a leader.


"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people
can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead



.

http://kogswell.com/images/BQpap.gif

I can easily get 650B tyres here. What I can't get here is such a beautiful bike!

Just as a question: is the (massive) front rack necessary or is it just there to keep the spirit?

I can easily get 650B tyres here. What I can't get here is such a beautiful bike!

Just as a question: is the (massive) front rack necessary or is it just there to keep the spirit?


Good question, and the answer is 'sort of'.

The frame is supplied with different forks that allow the user to tune the geometry for the load, the postion (front/rear) of the load and type of tires being used. That's a prototype rack for carrying a big front load. And we're designing a rack for lighter loads as well, a 'randoneering' rack designed to hold a handlebar bag.

Everyone has a different use for the bike and so the builds cover a wide range.

For touring, the forks have low-rider mounts and the rear has rack mounts as well. And we supply matching steel fenders that are painted to match and which attach to threaded bossed on the bridges and under the fork crown.

There are more photos of what folks are doing on the Kogswell group at Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/kogswell/


http://static.flickr.com/97/277089510_50f2e4cde3.jpg

no offense, Kog, because that's a beautiful bike,

the difference between the mountain bike and your porteur is mountain bikes were building on existing 26" rim bike ideas and using an already readily available rim and tire size.....


700C is a good size if you want to use 25-28mm tubulars. And 559s are OK kids and small women. But if you're carrying a load (or if you are a load), 36mm+ 650B tires offer a very smooth ride.

now, that's VERY subjective! JUST 25-28 tubulars?

the '29'er and fat, 700c tires have got a good thing going for smooth and fast ride. not to mention higher absolute gear inches for when its all downhill....who decided 559 tires aren't good for rough stuff touring?


i see there are a lot of rim choices in the 650B size.

why don't you just design around the S-6 or S-7 hoops and make a lot of old bike collectors happy? instead of pimping yet another rim size to go obsolete on consumers?

559 and 584, thats a diff of 2.5cm, right? 12MM difference in the radius of the hoops from mountain bike hoops? 12.5 MM diff?


I ask, truly, whats' the diff? how many wheel sizes do consumers need? I think French Standard- styled bikes are what americans need MORE of, tha's for sure, but using readily available rim and wheel sizes.


you don't have to reinvent the wheel (diameter) IMO.

No, there is no frame readily available at the price, specifically designed to be a tourer. I think Surly were geniuses doing the LHT. I think it is a very good product with great market placement. My criticisms? Well, I'll guess that many people get overly enthusiastic and end up spending much more money than they first thought they would (hey, a quality tourer for $400!!!). Secondly, I do believe it's alot of money for a Taiwanese produced frame that is not exceptional (sorry, but it's not, granted it's very good, but it's not exceptional). I think Surly are selling it on the reputation and marketing niche mystique -which I really can't blame them for, and indeed have admiration.

If some other manufacturer started to contract out to a half decent Chinese production with a decent touring design, I'd bet the LHT would have more than a bit of competition. Sadly, it seems the US market has been skipped over with only a cursory selection of touring bikes; hats off to Surly again for seeing the opportunity.

Hopefully I don't come across as being negative about the LHT -I'd certainly have one. However, I think it would be more based on market sector, price, the fact I build my own bikes, etc AND the fact there's not much out there that is its competitor (e.g. touring frame for <$400). I think this market sector is possibly very open to competition, and I don't think the LHT position is unassailable given the product. Once the LHTs are sold built up for $1000, it will be interesting to see how people like them compared to the Trek 520 -is the LHT frame that much better than the Trek 520? And what sort of componentry compared to the Treks? It will be very interesting.

Orig. Poster here...

My question was intended to elicit comments on whether there is a FRAMESET available for ABOUT $400 which is as good or better than the Surly LHT. Not that all the comments about production bikes aren't interesting or valid, but...

FWIW, my feet are so big/long, that even on an old '83 Trek 630 with chainstays about as long as the LHT, my right heel can hit the derailer. People talk about needing long c'stays to keep out of the panniers; I need 'em just to stay out of the drive train. And when I pull my kids' bike trailer, which is often, I have to pedal with my left arch over the pedal else I whack the trailer hitch/mount. I yearn to go touring, but I have to have a touring-length bike just for everyday riding.

I've decided that I want to build up a bike from a frameset because I have access to a treasure trove of used componetry and what I can't scavenge that way, I can likely pickup on ebay. I just don't have a lot to spend and after watching ebay for a month or so, I'm not seeing long wheelbase bikes in my size (60/61cm) being offered there. Meanwhile, the ready made touring market has all but died in the US. I think I can build a bike for under a $grand which is better than the Trek 520 (MSRP $1239).

No, if the chainstays were longer on the Soma Doublecross (http://www.somafab.com/frames.html) or Smoothie ES (http://www.somafab.com/frames.html), I'd rather buy a frame from those guys. Better steel (arguably). Lighter frame. Cooler look.

But the only one I know of that will work for me is the Surly LHT. I'd just like to see if there're others before I commit.

Thanks again to all who have posted.

Sooner, sounds like you really need to go custom due to clearance.

Hi,
just got one of these for the wife. Check the chainstay length. It is really sweet and the paint job has to be seen, it is gorgeous.

http://parts.spicercycles.com/page.cfm?PageID=37&action=list&Category=680&type=T&startRow=41

Ooops, here you can find a link to the pdf that has the specs
http://parts.spicercycles.com/page.cfm?PageID=37&action=list&Category=680&type=T&startRow=41

Sooner, sounds like you really need to go custom due to clearance.

Yep, and just soon as these three kids (6, 5 and 2) are out of college, I'll order up a tailor made frame, but 'til then, my budget is limited. Ain't nobody gonna weld me up a custom frame, bare, for less'n a $Grand at least, and easily more. Yes, I can see the value in a custom frame, but I just can't afford it. Better to be bikin a bike that don't fit than ridin a couch which does.

If it's really an issue. There's one way to get some space behind your heels:
http://www.xtracycle.com/freeradical-hitchless-trailer-convert-your-bike-p-2.html

Just an idea. Never used one myself though.

The Porteur is a wonderful looking bike. And the 650 size doesn't bother me at all in the main, but for touring bikes I'm even a little sceptical of the supply of 700c touring supplies. I've had problems, and I am exploring 26" wheel dedicated touring designs I'm sure the market prefers 700c generally.

The great thing about the LHT was that it was a cheap forced build-out experience, people have really bonded over the great design and sharing their build-out solutions. Probably it's a good next step for Surly to go to a complete bike, and I wish them well with it, they continue to bring out neat new stuff also, but I think the The LHT vibe might die with this decision. There might be less people doing the builds. LHT framesets are going to be "that frame on the $1000 bike". Surly is telling us what the bike is really worth, so who is going to throw Phil hubs on it now?

We also now know what happens when a Surly frame gets really popular, Surly fires suppliers that have made the market at the early adopter end, like Spicer, and trashes the resale value of everyone else's ride, by pumping out $1000 packages. I'm not criticizing their direction, but as a rider one reason I wanted to get a Surly last year, though I couldn't in time, was because I figured it would be an easy resale. That's a pretty cool feature in a touring bike where a lot of people do a big tour and then sell.

So Matt what we need is a new touring frame with real touring presence and features, and maybe a little vintage feel and beauty like the Porteur. Fork selection would be nice. And it can start all over again.

no offense, Kog, because that's a beautiful bike,

The difference between the mountain bike and your porteur is mountain bikes were building on existing 26" rim bike ideas and using an already readily available rim and tire size.....



I'm gonna talk about ISO tires sizes because that's how I think. So here's my little size guide:

622 - 700c
590 - 650a
584 - 650b
559 - mountain bike, balloon tire

What you're saying is that early mountain bikes were based on the 559 balloon tire. Yep, that's true. What I'm saying is that in the early stages of development, only one good rim and one good tire existed: the Araya 7X rim and the Specialized Ground Control tire. Sure, there were steel rims and balloon tires available, but the quality not good. When Specialized introduced the Araya rim and their light tire, things got a lot better for 559s.

So 559 was an established size, but you wouldn't have ridden on what was available.




i see there are a lot of rim choices in the 650B size.



The Velocity Synergy and the Sun CR-18 are both available. Rigida makes a rim as well.

Not a lot of choices, but they range from superb to affordable.




why don't you just design around the S-6 or S-7 hoops and make a lot of old bike collectors happy? instead of pimping yet another rim size to go obsolete on consumers?



In fact, I tried to do just that. I found that the 590, which is only 3mm bigger in radius than the 584, is still in widespread use, it's the most popular tire size in Japan. So there are lots of rims and tires made in that size. I went as far as sourcing rims and tires and offering them for FREE to customers and you know what? NO ONE TOOK THEM. They ALL opted to buy and use 584 rims and tires. Why, you ask?

Tire selection. There are some VERY nice 650B tires available.

The other factor is availability. QBP (the 800 lb gorilla of the wholesale bicycle industry) had thrown its weight behind 584. And I think customers see that and think, "this is middle size that will become dominant and be available."

So, rather than rely on logic and sensability, I just followed the herd.




559 and 584, thats a diff of 2.5cm, right? 12MM difference in the radius of the hoops from mountain bike hoops? 12.5 MM diff?



I hear ya. I said the same thing. And it wasn't until I rode them that I understood.




I ask, truly, whats' the diff? how many wheel sizes do consumers need? I think French Standard- styled bikes are what americans need MORE of, tha's for sure, but using readily available rim and wheel sizes.

you don't have to reinvent the wheel (diameter) IMO.

I've thought about this a lot these are the consulsions that I've come to:


we need a size between 559 and 622

the best course of action is to support the most popular of those sizes - that will encourage rim and tire makers to bring more and better products to market - here in The States, the consumers have speken and 584 is what they want

as krazy as it sound, good 584 wheels and tires offer a magical ride - we're still trying to figure out why, but until we do, the proof is in the riding of them

the 'middleweight' format, the 590/597 size was VERY popular here in The States for a long time - at one time it was the biggest selling size - a vestige of that is the availability of 26 x 1 3/8" tubes and 590 tires - EVERY Walmart stocks them, and they don't stock any 622 tires

The Porteur is a wonderful looking bike. And the 650 size doesn't bother me at all in the main, but for touring bikes I'm even a little sceptical of the supply of 700c touring supplies. I've had problems, and I am exploring 26" wheel dedicated touring designs I'm sure the market prefers 700c generally.

The great thing about the LHT was that it was a cheap forced build-out experience, people have really bonded over the great design and sharing their build-out solutions. Probably it's a good next step for Surly to go to a complete bike, and I wish them well with it, they continue to bring out neat new stuff also, but I think the The LHT vibe might die with this decision. There might be less people doing the builds. LHT framesets are going to be "that frame on the $1000 bike". Surly is telling us what the bike is really worth, so who is going to throw Phil hubs on it now?

We also now know what happens when a Surly frame gets really popular, Surly fires suppliers that have made the market at the early adopter end, like Spicer, and trashes the resale value of everyone else's ride, by pumping out $1000 packages. I'm not criticizing their direction, but as a rider one reason I wanted to get a Surly last year, though I couldn't in time, was because I figured it would be an easy resale. That's a pretty cool feature in a touring bike where a lot of people do a big tour and then sell.

So Matt what we need is a new touring frame with real touring presence and features, and maybe a little vintage feel and beauty like the Porteur. Fork selection would be nice. And it can start all over again.



I do hear what you all are saying about tire availability. I started loaded touring in 1970 and even back then, people were talking about being able to find tires while on the road.

And again, that's why I tried to get folks to embrace the 590 size rather than the 584. Walmart sells a REALLY nice 590 tire and matching tubes. You can't beat that for availability. And there are some outstanding tires like the Schwalbe Marathon available in 590. That tire is BOMB PROOF. Not light, not fast, but durable and reliable. If you're looking at alternatives, look at the Marathon. Sun makes the CR-18 in 590 and it's a tough, double-wall rim that will take a lot of punishment.

The Kogswell P/R was not designed to be a loaded tourer. We meant it to work well as a delivery bike and as a randoneering bike. So far, so good. But early adopters found that it did make a good loadee. It has 440mm chain stays and as long a front center as you'll find anywhere. And the choice of forks allows the geometry to be changed to adapt to either a front or rear load bias. So you can really dial in the ride. The touring crowd asked me to make some changes like adding low-rider mounts to the fork and a third bottle cage under the D/T and so I did.

If anyone out there is thinking about a new bike, don't listen to me. Instead, join the KOG owners group and ask P/R owners what they think.

Now in case you've missed it, have a look at this video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=LdJqzea1jco

That's a Kogswell P/R, with a loaded handlebar bag, being ridden down hill NO HANDS.

Try that with your bike and get back to me.

Apologies for the thread hijack.

I also have to say that it looks a beautiful bike. But also add me to the list of people who wouldn't consider buying this bike simply based on wheel size. Why? OK, so taking your word that an in-between size is needed, the ride would have to be more than fantastic to take me away from the much more readily available 700c and 26" wheel sizes (something that after riding 700c and 26" wheels I honestly can't see, but I say that with the caveat I haven't ridden 650s). However, even thinking about it, even if the ride was somehow magically better, I'm still not sure I'd buy based on the fact I'm very happy with the performance of my 700c and 26" wheels anyway -sizes that are much more readily available......

Now if the 650 became really popular and more readily available, then.....maybe...! And with respect, it's great talking about the history of the market, what might happen, what sizes were available when, or will be etc, but to me it doesn't mean a thing; I want something I can get now (don't care about if XXX sizes were more popular years ago or will be popular in years to come). Doesn't mean a thing to me, and I just don't see alot of 650 stuff out there -and that's my experience and hence reality (to me, unless I'm dreaming!).

But here's a question: why didn't you equip the frame to take 650s AND 26" wheels? I know the 26" would effect the handling, but is it feasible? Or is a specifically designed 650 frame going to show really bad characteristics with a 26" wheelset?

That's a Kogswell P/R, with a loaded handlebar bag, being ridden down hill NO HANDS. Try that with your bike and get back to me.The Porteur sounds like a bike with good stable geometry and forks with good trail and tracking.

The Long Haul Trucker is also remarkably stable no hands on gravel roads and pavement, at speed, loaded or unloaded.


I ride no hands on a fully loaded Long Haul Trucker doing 35-40 MPH + pretty regularily, Kogs.


for the likes of me i can't figure out whats wrong with choosing ETERO 559 or 622 but thats maybe just my luddism shining thru.. and there's a LOT of these tires and rims readily available......maybe its just me, but i've never noticed these wheels NOT working nicely.

And I have a bike with 597 hoops on it, Kogswell. sitting in my apartment right now. I just got up and compared these 597s with a 559 mounted up with a standard 'two and and eigth' on there; I see very little difference between the two. I can imagine the difference between a 584 and a 559 to be even less noticable.

and a 597 doesn't ride any better than a 622 as far as I can tell. nifty, not better. maybe 584 is the golden fleece and not the golden mean?


this is all just my opinion, but the Porteur would sell like GANGBUSTERS in the 559 or 622 size.


any takers on bringing back 630? going once, going twice..... no bids?

Considering the proposed $1K price of a ready to ride LHT I think this M95 Swiss Military bicycle should be considered as well.
http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/5955/m95milbikeef6.jpg

I found them for sale on Ebay at http://stores.ebay.com/Swiss-Army-bikes .
How cool would it be to show up at the start of a group tour on one of these?!

Honestly, the LHT and other Surly frames are pretty good value. They have good designs and nice powdercoats.

But they are just Maxway Cycles frames re-branded as Surly.

Maxway also builds frames for Jamis, Novara, and almost every other big bike builder other than Trek or Cannondale. So what's the REAL difference between the LHT frame and say, the Jamis Aurora?

Nothing.

So what's the REAL difference between the LHT frame and say, the Jamis Aurora?

Just look at the specs for both. They aren't the same frame at all.

"The Kogswell P/R was not designed to be a loaded tourer."

That's your first mistake, right there! :0)

I'm building my own frames now, but if I hadn't I think a Porteur would have been a no brainer just because of the forks, a great looking bike that one could really tune/play with.

The real measure of the tire size is whether there is a really good folding touring tire. With one of those it's not too risky, and Walmart would be a help too.

Eric,

Well, the Surly LHT has a slightly better fork and a better powder coat than the Jamis Aroura, but honestly, everything else is pretty close to the same for a 56-58 cm frame. The Surly has a chainstay that's maybe 20mm longer and a wheelbase that's 30mm longer. (I'm guessing here, but I do happen to know touring bikes pretty well) With today's set-back type racks and panniers-- that's nothing. Really.


Don't get me wrong-- I like the LHT frame. But it's not really any different than a pack of other steel framed touring bikes out there. So, yes, the LHT does have a lot of rivals. Because Jamis doesn't have a cult fallowing, guess what? It's more bike for the money

Geometry, paint, material, braze-ons, tire clearance, wheel size... It's many small differences that make a big difference overall. The reason the LHT has cult status is because it's a true touring frame at a decent price. You can build it any way you want instead of changing a bunch of parts.

I ride no hands on a fully loaded Long Haul Trucker doing 35-40 MPH + pretty regularily, Kogs.

I ride no hands and no feet regulary on my Madone doing, oh about, 67 mph down Stevens Pass. Quite exhilerating :D

Beko we're going to have fun talking about this thread on Friday! Or maybe Tuesday if I come in to hang out when I get my paycheck!

I think the replies have said it all -I don't think there is. I also second comments made that if your feet that big, it may be time for a custom frameset ($$$$$s) or consider a trailer.


Orig. Poster here...
My question was intended to elicit comments on whether there is a FRAMESET available for ABOUT $400 which is as good or better than the Surly LHT.

'blade, how do you steer a bike at 65 without using your feet?

....give 650B tires about ten years to see if they catch on, and then perhaps the Porteur becomes a viable alternative. maybe when both trek and specialized offer a couple of 584 bikes in their lineup. Specialized led the pack back in the 80's; maybe they'll go for the revolutionary 584 size.

for the near future, at that price point, i'd say, the LHT has no rival either in frameset or complete bike for 2007.

I think 1,000 dollar Long Haul Truckers is a good thing. thats the Proletariat in me, I guess.

I ride no hands and no feet regulary on my Madone doing, oh about, 67 mph down Stevens Pass. Quite exhilerating :D

Beko we're going to have fun talking about this thread on Friday! Or maybe Tuesday if I come in to hang out when I get my paycheck!

There is a not-so-fine point both of you are missing: Kogswell said with a handlebar bag (presumably a Berthoud, I can't watch the video). Your comment can only have relevance if you had a loaded handlebar bag, and not one of those dinky ones that fit a banana and some energy bar. Anyone can ride no hands at speed, the point is can you do it with a heavy front load on your bike? Given the front end geometry of your bike, I doubt you could. It would be interesting to try it, so take a video if you can.

I'm not missing anything....my 'fully loaded' long haul trucker includes a full handlebar bag. as well as two panniers, sometimes ski boots on top of the panniers.

the Long Haul Trucker is a rock solid bike. Hands off the bars doing 40 is NOT a problem. It solid loaded or not, its about the stoutness and trail of the fork, i believe, as well as wheelbase, and other frame nuance.

I often go for the hands down by my sides 'ski jumper' position for better slipstreaming and a cool look. you can STEER a loaded Long Haul Trucker hands-free at speeds that fast, the bike tracks like a freight train.

i can't back warblades claims of feetless 60 plus riding on a Madone, i always like to have my feet firmly on the pedals at speeds over 50 :)

like off North Cascades highway or Stevens (STEEP!) but I like the OLD Cascade road over Stevens instead of US2, the old highway road has like, NO TRAFFIC and lets you do 40-50 or so but not enough wiggle room for 65.


the LHT has no contemporary, only lesser rivals at her price point. I still love the look of the Porteur, but it needs different hoops in my opinion...

'blade, how do you steer a bike at 65 without using your feet?

I use telekinesis Beko'. It's all in the head you know!

i can't back warblades claims of feetless 60 plus riding on a Madone, i always like to have my feet firmly on the pedals at speeds over 50 :)


It's just because I'm a crazy racer kid with no fears! :p

Lance is wrong, pain can be permanent and life long.

Next step, the LHT at Walmart!

30 MM on the wheel base, nominal IS what makes a difference, and defines something as touring vs. non touring. I've measured a bunch of bikes and in big boy sizes those 30mm are sometimes up to 50 even thought he chart says all the frames are 43. Most classic frame road dimensions are fairly small increments.

Are the current Surly LHTs powdercoated? Once they dumped the green I thought the new sparkly ones where sprayed paint like most bikes.

If you honestly want a really cheap tourer get an entry level mountain bike. I toured twice with (rear-only) loads of 30-40 kgs on my Trek 4300 (26x1.3 Sports Contacts) and the crappy suspension fork it has and a sh!tty Trek rear rack for $25 or so.

*That's* a budget tourer.

Lance is wrong, pain can be permanent and life long.

Next step, the LHT at Walmart!

30 MM on the wheel base, nominal IS what makes a difference, and defines something as touring vs. non touring. I've measured a bunch of bikes and in big boy sizes those 30mm are sometimes up to 50 even thought he chart says all the frames are 43. Most classic frame road dimensions are fairly small increments.

Are the current Surly LHTs powdercoated? Once they dumped the green I thought the new sparkly ones where sprayed paint like most bikes.

I recently dumped the Giant OCR bike I was building in favor of an LHT. I had to go out of my way to track down a Sage green LHT in 58cm. I surely hope Surly doesn't go the McD generic route with their paint and colors.

A very strong rival to the LHT in 2007 will be the Rocky Mountain Sherpa.a bit pricier as a complete bike for about 1400 bucks.

very nice frame set. disc brake mounts. spoke holder. chain keeper. dang thing is all decked out. Even a generator tab (12V bottle generators available from Busch and Muller, make yourself a wicked recharging system....)

Rocky Mountain Sherpa, a viable contender as a rival to the Long Haul Trucker.