This is purely a theoretical question, related to a discussion on Gabbly last night.
How would you design a tandem for trekking a human powered cycle from Scott Base in Antarctica to South Pole Station?
The trip is 870 miles one way and crosses the most remote country on the planet, bar none! Equipment failure could well mean you die! Terrain ranges from flat to mountainous.
Factors to allow for: Weight. the bike and sledge need to be light enough to be carried while using cross country skis when traversing unrideable conditions, but enough strength for survivability. Plan on a blank check as far as cost of equipment goes (Again, this is theoretical...I'm not thinking of ordering one!)
Tire type: Need to withstand -60F, frame as well.
Possible designs discussed included a variant of a recumbent trike with a lightweight mylar skin enclosure.
How's this for an intellectual challenge?
p3ntuprage
11-06-06, 06:51 AM
does it have to be a bicycle?
a single wheel at the back and one ot two skis up front [like snowmobiles]
the wheel/tyre at the back could be based on snowshoes. two rims placed 100mm apart with a skin of neoprene or similar stretched between them.
something like a seperable moulton with a fairing might be better than a recumbent for weight and ease of carrying, maybe.
the idea of a tensioned mylar fairing is a good one, but on its own might be fragile and difficult to repair. mylar could probably be bonded to ripstop nylon, so you'd have the durability of the nylon and the wind-proofness [new word?] of the mylar without adding too much weight.
i like excercises like this.
fsnl
sparky
Tom Stormcrowe
11-06-06, 08:24 AM
does it have to be a bicycle?
a single wheel at the back and one ot two skis up front [like snowmobiles]
the wheel/tyre at the back could be based on snowshoes. two rims placed 100mm apart with a skin of neoprene or similar stretched between them.
something like a seperable moulton with a fairing might be better than a recumbent for weight and ease of carrying, maybe.
the idea of a tensioned mylar fairing is a good one, but on its own might be fragile and difficult to repair. mylar could probably be bonded to ripstop nylon, so you'd have the durability of the nylon and the wind-proofness [new word?] of the mylar without adding too much weight.
i like excercises like this.
fsnl
sparky
This is kind of what I had in mind! Perhaps inmterchangeable wheel/ski or strap on skis for the front? There are atreas of bare rock that would have to be crossed as well. Antarctica in in essence polar desert.
cs1
11-07-06, 12:57 AM
This doesn't sound theoretical at all. It sounds like you've got it planned already. How do you plan on staying outside 24/7 in that weather?
Tim
Tom Stormcrowe
11-07-06, 12:07 PM
This doesn't sound theoretical at all. It sounds like you've got it planned already. How do you plan on staying outside 24/7 in that weather?
Tim
I'd use a tent, for shelter. There are quite a few tents suitable for High Arctic conditions. Arctic bags, high energy foods, arctic clothing, resupply would be done by airdrop and caching. If I were theoretically doing this it would be 3 teams of two, on two modified tanden recumbent designs briefly discussed above. That way, if things went to hell in a big way, the other two bikes would provide sufficient back up for survival. It is purely a theoretical exercise though, due to the fact that I'm about $1,000,001.00 short of the Million I estimate the cost to be. I think it would be doable, though!:D
Little Leo
11-07-06, 08:03 PM
My uncle went to work on the generator at Mcmurdo last year. He said it was a trip of a life time. I would risk my life to go.
29351
29352
29353
2manybikes
11-07-06, 09:17 PM
This is purely a theoretical question, related to a discussion on Gabbly last night.
How would you design a tandem for trekking a human powered cycle from Scott Base in Antarctica to South Pole Station?
The trip is 870 miles one way and crosses the most remote country on the planet, bar none! Equipment failure could well mean you die! Terrain ranges from flat to mountainous.
Factors to allow for: Weight. the bike and sledge need to be light enough to be carried while using cross country skis when traversing unrideable conditions, but enough strength for survivability. Plan on a blank check as far as cost of equipment goes (Again, this is theoretical...I'm not thinking of ordering one!)
Tire type: Need to withstand -60F, frame as well.
Possible designs discussed included a variant of a recumbent trike with a lightweight mylar skin enclosure.
How's this for an intellectual challenge?
Because it has to be carried or pulled in a sled I would use two single bikes instead of a tandem. You have a lot more options that way for all the load situations too. And two small sleds instead of one. When stuck two people can move each small sled with a bike on it one at a time.
No suspension of any kind. NOT rim brakes !! Disk brakes mechanical only. You don't need powerful brakes you need non ice collecting brakes. In most snow you don't need any brakes. Small light disks.
A trike is terrible in the snow or slush. You have much less traction, and if it is bumpy sometimes none at all. On a bumpy ice and snow surface you may never get going even.
Pushing three tires instead of two in line through snow will ruin the whole thing. A two wheel bike with studded tires is much better than a trike.
Forget something covered, the condensation is terrible. You are releasing moisture all the time you are moving. And the wind can push you over sideways. Use a tent for protection not a covered trike.
Go to the Iditabike sites and ask about equipment, they do this every year. Try the site ICEBIKE
Any kind of a bike will be worse than none when the going gets into deep snow. Skis and shoes are better flotation, and when you pick up one foot to take a step most of the friction goes away. This is critical, it changes how much work you do in the snow drastically. You can't take that step with a bike, too much friction not enough flotation.
A bike with a ski on the front will have too much friction from the ski, and the back tire will not have enough flotation.
The worst of both worlds, you can't pick up the front ski and take a step like skis or shoes.
I would never even consider a tandem. You might have to leave the bikes at the first deep snow anyway.
A covered trike would only be considered by someone who has never ridden a bike in the snow. Probably not even by anyone who has ridden a bicycle and done any cross country skiing. Any experience will kill that idea. You also need half of the weight on the tires, not one third of the weight.
When you get four inches of snow attempt to ride the wife's trike around. It's only one wheel drive, I doubt you can go 10 feet, the tire will just spin.
Remember all the sweat that will condense on the inside of something covered. Then try a mountain bike in 5 inches of snow. You'll probably start laughing at the trike idea. Maybe even the bike idea. If you feel powerful try to ride a MTB one mile in five or 6 inches of snow on a flat road. My snow bike hits the snow with the pedals at 5.5 inches of snow. I can ride in deeper snow, but I would rather walk. It's better, you don't have to push the bike along in the snow. The depth of the snow changes as you go it's not 5 inches all the time it's 4 (ride) then 7 (walk) then 4 (ride).
I know you're not going to buy anything, but try and ride the trike and a bike in some snow at least 4 or 5 inches deep. Just to get an idea of what it's like. It can be fun with studded tires in 4 inches of fresh powder about 25 degrees, and on hard cold ice. The harder ice the better for studs. Too warm and the snow turns to mush and glue.
There's a reason for a dog sled. and skiing or shoeing while towing a small sled. A recumbent tandem trike will have to be abandoned in about 6 or 5 inches of snow.
trackstar10
11-09-06, 11:52 PM
didn't moots make a ti mtb frame that was designed for this? i saw a thing on it about it at interbike- the main triangle had a huge storage place in it and the down tube was filled with compressed gas for a stove or something. it also had like 6 inch tires.
Thats the funniest picture. Those penguins look so lost. What do they do all day? Walk around and then mate so when they die the same thing happens again. lol
MnHPVA Guy
11-25-06, 09:37 PM
No suspension of any kind. NOT rim brakes !! Disk brakes mechanical only. You don't need powerful brakes you need non ice collecting brakes. In most snow you don't need any brakes. Small light disks.In 4 decades of riding through Minnesota winters I've never had a problem with rims or brakes icing up. Besides, at Antarctic temps will you ever have water form ice to on rims? Won't the snow be the dry type?
A bike with a ski on the front will have too much friction from the ski, and the back tire will not have enough flotation.
The worst of both worlds, you can't pick up the front ski and take a step like skis or shoes.
I would never even consider a tandem. Agreed.
A covered trike would only be considered by someone who has never ridden a bike in the snow.
Probably not even by anyone who has ridden a bicycle and done any cross country skiing. Any experience will kill that idea. Really? I have friends who commute through our winters in fully enclosed velomobiles. They say their only problem is a lack of traction in certain conditions. But they are running tires ill suited for winter (See next comment about traction) A couple of them were on this ride. (http://www.velomobiling.com/gallery/MNHPVA/IceBikeRide/?g2_GALLERYSID=c08763e77b9c17e2cd070b49fb8fb3f2)
You also need half of the weight on the tires, not one third of the weight.
When you get four inches of snow attempt to ride the wife's trike around. It's only one wheel drive, I doubt you can go 10 feet, the tire will just spin. I know of several car free individuals who have ridden 1WD tadpoles through our winters. They didn't get around all that badly. But, you seem to assume Tom is considering a tadpole. My, winter only, delta trike has 2WD, 80% of the weight on the driving wheels, and is set up so if only one wheel has traction it gets all the drive.
I don't know what snow conditions you are likely to encounter, but I'm sure that info is readily available. I understand it doesn't snow much there, too dry. If the vast majority is wind packed, 3 Surly Ectomorph tires should provide plenty of flotation. Even wider tires (http://www.oddwidget.com/~mnhpva/ice/ice2003/Ice5.html) are available if you go outside of the bicycle universe.
I still think it's a bad idea, but it sure would beat walking. Consider kites for extra power when you have a tailwind.
John Evingson was an airframe weldor for Alaskan bush pilots. He would know if there are any metallurgical problems at these temps. He built bikes like this (http://mnhpva.org/Meetings/Feb_03/Eving.html) for the Iditarod bike race.
2manybikes
11-26-06, 05:25 AM
In 4 decades of riding through Minnesota winters I've never had a problem with rims or brakes icing up. Besides, at Antarctic temps will you ever have water form ice to on rims? Won't the snow be the dry type?
Then you have never rider through deep snow. Yes there will be dry snow, just like the deep dry snow that I ride through that ices my brakes and wheels. I'm talking about riding through a few inches of deep snow. The cold snow is warmed by using the brakes and melted into water and then refreezes. Riding on the road that is somewhat cleaned off has nothing to do with deep snow. Riding on hard packed snow has nothing to do with riding in deep snow. It's like apples and watermelons.
One must consider all kinds of conditions to even have a slight chance or success.
Really? I have friends who commute through our winters in fully enclosed velomobiles. They say their only problem is a lack of traction in certain conditions. But they are running tires ill suited for winter (See next comment about traction) A couple of them were on this ride.
Try snow a few inches deep. The "Certain conditions" are what I'm talking about. That will be the downfall of the mission, A mile or two of deep soft snow, not the miles of hardpack, or hard frozen surface, that will be fine. Since you are just going by what someone tells you, it means nothing, you need to try it.
You need to try it. Try sand to get an idea. Try 5" deep snow. Try 4" deep snow. This is something that needs to be done to know. The amount of effort is surprising. Years or first hand experience is how I learned, I did not realize how hard it was. None of the other riders in this area have the slightest idea.
I know of several car free individuals who have ridden 1WD tadpoles through our winters. They didn't get around all that badly. But, you seem to assume Tom is considering a tadpole. My, winter only, delta trike has 2WD, 80% of the weight on the driving wheels, and is set up so if only one wheel has traction it gets all the drive.
I don't know what snow conditions you are likely to encounter, but I'm sure that info is readily available. I understand it doesn't snow much there, too dry. If the vast majority is wind packed, 3 Surly Ectomorph tires should provide plenty of flotation. Even wider tires are available if you go outside of the bicycle universe.
I still think it's a bad idea, but it sure would beat walking. Consider kites for extra power when you have a tailwind.
John Evingson was an airframe welder for Alaskan bush pilots. He would know if there are any metallurgical problems at these temps. He built bikes like this for the Iditarod bike race.
"I don't know what snow conditions you are likely to encounter, but I'm sure that info is readily available." ....game over. :(
I'm not assuming Tom is locking his thinking into a tadpole trike. I have first hand experience with a Delta in soft stuff too. Can you send me a link to your limited slip differential in your trike? I've read about that kind of set up and not seen a good explanation. Not that a limited slip differential would solve the problem.
It will work on hard surfaces and shallow snow of course. That is not going to get the job done. "The vast majority" of the ride is fine. That means failure. That is the down fall of lots of plans. If there is wind and snow around there may be some deep areas. Counting on conditions and being all set for the vast majority of the mileage means failure, if the bad conditions are not considered.
The first time the snow is too deep for a few miles it's over for the trikes. Try riding in deep snow. You need to understand the amount of effort to push, pedal, and drag those things through a few miles of deep snow. I do it every winter by choice, It's fun, but not with a trike, Even an mtb will only go up to about 6" of soft powder without a lot more effort than walking. When it's really soft it's actually harder to push wide tires through the snow than narrow tires. The wider the worse, in deep fresh powder. The wider tires don't give a two wheeled one man powered vehicle enough flotation. The power is too low, and the flotation is poor. A tandem keeps the area of the flotation surface the same and doubles the weight. Even worse. This nothing new, this has been tested for decades. Personally I ride 20 miles in the deep snow a few times a year. The pedals hit the snow at 5.5 inches on my snow bike. At that point in first gear, I can only go a block, it's not the same everywhere, it goes up to 6.5 then down to 4.5 as you pedal along. I can ride my track bike 120 miles, I can ride my MTB 100 miles. In 6" of soft snow not a mile, no way. Not without a few rest breaks.
I'd use a tent, for shelter. There are quite a few tents suitable for High Arctic conditions. Arctic bags, high energy foods, arctic clothing, resupply would be done by airdrop and caching. If I were theoretically doing this it would be 3 teams of two, on two modified tandem recumbent designs briefly discussed above. That way, if things went to hell in a big way, the other two bikes would provide sufficient back up for survival. It is purely a theoretical exercise though, due to the fact that I'm about $1,000,001.00 short of the Million I estimate the cost to be. I think it would be doable, though!
If it is three tandems and six people then the first twisted ankle or any health problem means you have one person powering a tandem. If it was singles one person can be injured and rescued, and the bike left behind.
A tandem is much harder to lift over a log or carry through a drift. And harder to power by one. And of course the flotation is a disaster.
Before even considering this, get a trike of some kind and try and move it through 6" of snow for one mile. If it snows here, come to my house I have a trike, and access to different kinds of trikes. I'll let you try my snow bike in deep snow.
I'll pay for food and hot chocolate after. The emergency room bill is your problem. ;) :D
2manybikes
11-26-06, 05:44 AM
All the photos of the ice racing prove my point exactly. See the snow plow tractor on the first page? You need to travel through the snow he is plowing away. Only one or two of those bikes could go 100 feet in that stuff. I ride miles in it every winter. The bikes with wide tires have been around for decades. In deep snow they need way too much power, the flotation is still not good enough in powder. It's actually easier with narrow tires in deep powder with a road underneath the snow.
What method would you use to move a trike in these conditions? If I put my crankarm vertical it will be in the snow.
The HANEBRINK thread is in General Cycling Discussion, BTW.
Dr Deltron:
You're pretty good, to recognize that Hutch frame as a Hanebrink design. That bike came out in 1986, Twenty years ago! You have an amazing memory.
hotbike at hotmail.com
ken cummings
12-26-06, 07:04 PM
I had a fully faired recumbent trike back in the 80's when I was commuting in Denver winters.
Ditch the fairing, the clear bubble on top of the fairing that my head extended into frosted over in a few seconds. Even above freezing it would fog over.
Also in the 80's Dupont sponsored a run at the 65 MPH speed limit via the IHPVA. One team from back east came to Colorado to try an ice trike on a high mountain lake. They had a radial saw blade for a rear wheel (traction) and two skate blades for the front. On a lake near 10,000 feet on Mt. Evans they found the fractured lake ice was too rough for the skates. Just a though, try starting from the privately operated Patriot Hills base. They do things like this on a regular basis. McMurdo and Scott bases will just slam the door in your face. I saw a film about Antarctica that showed a Japanese motorbike rider starting from Patriot Hills to ride to the South Pole. Semi-standard put-put front and read suspension, metal studded tires, and two snow mobile teams as back up. How about sprung outriggers on each side of the tandem to keep it up on the sastrugi?
superswede
12-31-06, 03:05 PM
This thread reminded me of this bike:
http://www.velonews.com/images/report/10939.16557.f.jpg
2manybikes
12-31-06, 05:10 PM
This thread reminded me of this bike:
http://www.velonews.com/images/report/10939.16557.f.jpg
That's the only bike suggested so far that makes any sense to use. The others all have a few big problems for snow. That's exactly what I would use. He designed it just right for the job. I would ask them to build another one for me, but it has not even snowed here yet. It's not worth it.