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Two miles from home at the end of a 106 mile ride yesterday our front Rolf Prima tandem wheel started wobbling all over the place. Turned out the hub flange had cracked and spokes were pulling out. The wheel has been in service for about 20 months and has just under 7,000 miles on it. So my questions to all you wheel experts out there are: Is it practical/worth it to get a new hub and rebuild the wheel? Is it better to buy a new Rolf front wheel? Should I just go ahead and buy a new rear wheel too (since the bearings in that wheel are getting pretty worn)? Or is it time to get some of those White Industry hubs everyone keeps raving about and build up some new wheels on those?
Thanks for sharing any thoughts you may have ....
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My gut reaction is to send the wheel back to Rolf and let them know how lucky both you and they were that the wheel did not let go while you were rounding a sharp bend on a steep descent....
Interesting failure. What's your team weight and what road surfaces are you riding?
Turned out the hub flange had cracked and spokes were pulling out. The wheel has been in service for about 20 months and has just under 7,000 miles on it. ...
You are by no way the first to experience this type of failure...
http://search.bikelist.org/getmsg.asp?Filename=tandem.10609.0743.eml
If you purchased them as the OEM wheels on your tandem contact your dealer, the builder, and Rolf. If they were after market, contact your dealer & Rolf. They "should" offer to rebuild the wheel with a new hub that does not have the weight saving drill-outs between the spoke holes.
Thank you, TandemGeek, for that very useful information. I'll follow up on it. We are, for what it's worth, a sub-300 pound team. We ride fairly quickly over some fairly rough roads, but we have never hit any major holes, pinch flatted, crashed, or anything like that with this wheel.
Thank you, TandemGeek, for that very useful information. I'll follow up on it. We are, for what it's worth, a sub-300 pound team. We ride fairly quickly over some fairly rough roads, but we have never hit any major holes, pinch flatted, crashed, or anything like that with this wheel.
K&M
"Fairly quick", thats an understatement. :D
We have the ROlf's that came stock on our Co Mo Robusta, and have had no problems, with around 6000 miles on them. We did have the same failure you described on a set of Bontrager Tandem wheels. We sent them in, Bontrager replaced the hub and we have had no further problems. We used the Bontragers exclusively this year on the each of the CTC doubles we did, including the Terrible Two and both Death Valley events. I'd say let Rolf replace the hub and stick with a great wheel set.
Two miles from home at the end of a 106 mile ride yesterday our front Rolf Prima tandem wheel started wobbling all over the place. ....
We thought that your stoker was out of commision for a few weeks. We assume she is back on the bike... that would be good news!
PS your e-mail box is full!!
dude, for every person I know with Rolf hub issues, I know ten with White Ind hub issues. How about Hugi or something????
At 7000 miles I'd replace the front and service the rear at a reputable lbs. Also interested in your riding history/team weight.
Tandems break things. Doesn't matter how many people do not have problems with the "Known" Tandem Quality items- someone is going to have a failure.
I know when I looked at wheels 4 years ago- I drew on as much experience of other people as I could. Everyone had different opinions but I made my choice, after consulting with The Downhill Offroaders, paid my money and I am happy.
My choice would not suit everyone as I am offroad- I ride aggressively and went for Downhill Quality. Definitely over the top on weight, but a couple of Front tyre blowouts and several high speed rear ones and my wheels are still going strong. Plus there are the rocks we've hit, and the cars and trees, the mistakes we've made on choice of route and the general misuse.
Still check the wheels after every ride though but Hope Bigun hubs are strong, Mavic EX 729 rims are strong and we have yet to break a straight gauge s/s spoke, even though we were told that Double butted were stronger. Have replaced a couple because we bent them but that is down to me and not the spokes.
I would let Rolf know that you have had a serious failure and see what they can do for you. Even though this is on a Tandem that is going to stress any part used on it- They may be one of the helpfull companies that are around.
12 month warranty, I wouldn't waste my time with a Rolf contact. Also note that Rolfs are about 150grams/wheel LIGHTER than Bontragers. That's why I own Bontrager.
dude, for every person I know with Rolf hub issues, I know ten with White Ind hub issues.
FWIW: Rolf sources its hubs from White Industries.
How about Cris King hubs? I have admired them for years but never had any. King offers a tandem specific hub and they have these beautiful colors. I have seen quite a few opinions on Rolfs, Bontragers, and White Ind. Anybody on King's? I get the urge for a new wheelset about this time every year although I'm still on my original Shimano/Mavics that came on my RT1000 almost 5 years ago. One of these days I'll give in.
How about Cris King hubs?
Bomb proof... We've used them on our off-road tandems for several years and they're incredibly reliable and durable. They're also fairly light and look great... but not cheap and not always easy to get your hands on.
we have yet to break a straight gauge s/s spoke, even though we were told that Double butted were stronger.
That's interesting, that someone would tell you that butted spokes are stronger than straight gauge.
Another happy Chris King hub user; matched to Velocity Aeroheads with DT Revolution spokes; 32H front, 36H rear. 13,000 miles so far . . . we are a sub-250-lb team.
That's interesting, that someone would tell you that butted spokes are stronger than straight gauge.
not stronger but longer lasting, read this thread from another cycling forum with experts like jobst brandt and sheldon brown.
http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?t=13752&goto=nextnewest
... we have yet to break a straight gauge s/s spoke, even though we were told that Double butted were stronger.
That's because you're riding a 26" fat-tired off-road tandem... Straight gauge spokes are fine for off-road applications but for road tandems running narrow, high-pressure tires on 700c wheels, double-butted spokes will produce a wheel that -- all other things being equal -- will be more resistant to spoke breakage due to metal fatigue not necessarily "stronger".
That's interesting, that someone would tell you that butted spokes are stronger than straight gauge.
Why? There are people all over the place who knowingly or unknowingly freely share inaccurate information, biased opinions, or pre-packed marketing BS all the time.
T'geek on the job!!! I guess what that means then is I know ten people with the regular White Ind badged hubs over the Rolf re-badge. But the scuttlebutt is the same: light, but not durable.
That's interesting, that someone would tell you that butted spokes are stronger than straight gauge.
Yeah, the guy probably just mis-spoke (no pun intended -- well, yeah it was). You do get a more durable wheel with butted spokes (as mentioned in the above Sheldon reference). I guess you could call it a "stronger wheel," but certainly the spokes aren't stronger by themselves when butted.
Another happy Chris King hub user; matched to Velocity Aeroheads with DT Revolution spokes; 32H front, 36H rear. 13,000 miles so far . . . we are a sub-250-lb team.
I have noticed that several teams are running Velocity rims and seem quite happy with them. My only experience with Velocity rims is from mountain biking and what turned me off on them was the very narrow braking surface they had. You had to line up your brake pads very carefully. Is this true on the road rims or is this just not right? I have never had an issue with any Mavic rims so they're my benchmarks. But I'm all for trying something new. I was thinking 40H front and 40H rear though. We're at 305 lbs for the team and ride pretty rough roads.
Found this in the cyclingforums link mentioned earlier: "The build is much more important than DB or straight spokes"(Qui Si Parla Ca).
Found this in the cyclingforums link mentioned earlier: "The build is much more important than DB or straight spokes"(Qui Si Parla Ca).
Absolutely true... The most reliable wheels are those that use components and spoke designs that are carefully selected by a qualified and experienced wheel builder who understands how the wheels will be used. Hence, the differences in what might be spec'd for our off-road forum member, vs a wheelset built for a 300lb tandem team riding 700c narrow rims with narrow tires, vs a 500lb triplet team. There are as many reasons to use straight gauge or DB spokes as there are to use high or low flange hubs, wide or narrow rims, and 2x vs 3x vs 4x or even 5x lacing patterns.
Build enough wheels and you'll eventually form your own opinions on which components work best with each other, make for the easiest builds, and provide for the greatest long-term servicability. Tandems merely highlight many of the weaknesses in poor component selection or builder technique / skill which is why the best insight you'll gain into how wheels for tandems should be built is from the people who actually have experience building wheels for tandems and know what does and does not hold up over the long haul under real world conditions.
At 170 lbs racing weight, I was snapping Revilution spokes like matchsticks on a set of "custom" builds for my Colnago when they first came out. I don't know why you'd want them for a tandem.
We thought that your stoker was out of commision for a few weeks. We assume she is back on the bike... that would be good news!
Actually, she was out of commission for almost 2 months. She got a bee in her bonnet about doing a triathlon and ended up breaking her ankle while out on a run. I hope she'll give that craziness up now and stay on the tandem where it's safe :)
After all these weeks of looking forward to getting back on the tandem we finally got the OK from her doctor, went out for a good solid ride, had a great time .... and then had our wheel fail just as we were getting home. On the bright side, at least the wheel didn't break to bits 45 minutes earlier, when we were descending a wicked grade at 50mph out in the middle of nowhere!
Hopefully, we'll be able to get our hands on a working wheel soon. With only that one ride since early September, we're suffering some pretty serious tandeming withdrawal symptoms. Another week or two without riding and you'll probably have to kick us off this forum ....
Have broken very few spokes riding tandem.
Our worst was in the 1970s when we had a Follis tandem that literally 'ate' spokes.
Since then custom tandems with wheels built by a qualified tandem wheel builder(s).
200,000 some miles later: 3 broken spokes. Two while climbing/cranking hard in the early 1980s and one in the later 1980s while braking down switchbacks in Oak Creek Canyon, in AZ. That excludes a half dozen spokes ripped out when chain inexplicably overshifted on rear cog into the spokes sometime back in the late 80s.
Have used double butted spokes since 1977.
About 13,000 miles on the Revolution DB sokes on our Zona tandem. No problems for us.
As Velocity vs Mavic braking surface area on wheels, so no real difference.
Build enough wheels and you'll eventually form your own opinions on which components work best with each other, make for the easiest builds, and provide for the greatest long-term servicability. Tandems merely highlight many of the weaknesses in poor component selection or builder technique / skill which is why the best insight you'll gain into how wheels for tandems should be built is from the people who actually have experience building wheels for tandems and know what does and does not hold up over the long haul under real world conditions.
One of the maintenance bits I prefer to leave to the experts is wheels. I just do not do enough of them to believe that I can build as good or better than the experts. I can true up wheels when the occasion arises but the funny things like Spoke tension- I cannot do as I do not have the tools or the experience.
I can buy a stock wheel from a reputable source with a big name on it- Or I can go to an expert wheel builder and get the benefit of their expertise. A branded wheel seller will be biased as they normally do not or cannot build wheels. A wheel builder will discuss with me all the options available after discussing my needs. I contacted two different wheel builders- both of which I trust- and they both came up with the same spec wheel. Remember that my Tandem riding is hard on wheels.
Then it came to cost. Why is it that both builders were within a few £'s of each other and both were going to sell me a complete set of wheels for somewhere near the Retail price of the hubs on their own? They buy in quantity first of all and they are not in the business of making money on retailing parts. They make their money on the building of wheels.
It does not matter if you are an offroad nutter like me- You race on road or track or you do heavy loaded touring. The use a tandem wheel is put to- and the loads that are put on that wheel for the differnt types of riding, mean that you cannot come up with a perfect wheel for "a" Tandem. What you can do is arrive at a specification for a wheel that will be good enough for your type of riding. And that is where a Good Wheel builder can help you immensly in your choice of wheel.
[QUOTE=
As Velocity vs Mavic braking surface area on wheels, so no real difference.[/QUOTE]
Could you clarify this a bit? I don't quite understand what your saying. Thanks.
My only experience with Velocity rims is from mountain biking and what turned me off on them was the very narrow braking surface they had. You had to line up your brake pads very carefully. Is this true on the road rims or is this just not right?
I'll have to check and see what the actual braking surface is when I get home tonight; however, if memory serves my 700c Mavic CXP30s and the Velocity Deep-V's have a very similar braking surface profile (10mm?) and, yes, you must take a few extra minutes to get the brake pads dead-nuts on as there is not a lot of margin on the Deep-V rims. The wider, general purpose rims seem to have somewhat larger taller braking surfaces than the racing rims.
You can see profiles of all the Velocity rims here:http://www.velocityusa.com/default.asp?contentID=563
I also have some Mavic CXP33s, older T217s and 26" non-machined & machined Velocity Aeroheat rims that I can and will check.
A quick check of the braking surfaces on the rolling stock...
26" Mavic 221 = 12mm
26" Velocity Aeroheat = 10mm (machined sidewall)
26" Velocity Aeroheat = 10mm (unmachined / disc specific)
700c Velocity Deep V = 10mm
700c Campy Eurus = 10mm
700c Mavic CXP30 = 11mm
700c Mavic Open Pro = 11mm
700c Mavic Cosmic E = 10mm
700c Mavic CXP33 = 10mm
700c Mavic T217 = 11mm
700c Ritchey Aero = 10mm
700c Alex AT400 = 10mm
700c Mavic GL330 Tubular = 6.5mm
[A quick check of the braking surfaces on the rolling stock...]
That's quite a selection! Looks like 10mm (+/-) is the standard for braking surface width.
What's your favorite (for tandem use)?
Thanks for the info.
What's your favorite (for tandem use)?
Assumption is road tandem, not off-road....
For our personal use (285lb team, fast recreational, unloaded & running 23mm & 25mm tires), narrow deep section 36h rims on our road tandems have been my preference since '98, both in terms of rigidity, ease of build, and even aesthetics (we have short but long tandems). I initially used the Mavic CXP30 until they were discontinued and still have a set built up on Phil Woods that I hold in reserve as spares for anyone who might occasionally need one. The Velocity Deep-V was the only equivalent replacement available when Mavic withdrew the CXP30, noting that the CXP33 and daVinci's V-22 were not truly deep section rims. Oh yeah, DT Competition, not Revolution or Alpine III spokes.
If we were a heavier team or did loaded touring I'd likely go with a wider tire spec. which would be more appropriate on a wider trekking rim, e.g., Mavic T series, Sun RhynoLite, or Velocity Dyad and would likely stick with 36h but use a taller flange hubset (Phil) and 4x lacing on the rear wheel again, using DT Competition spokes.
This story has a happy ending. Rolf has replaced our broken wheel. We are now happier than ever with our Rolf wheelset and with Rolf. It's a pleasure to do business with a company that stands behind their product ....
Now to try to free up some time tomorrow to get back on our bike!
K&M
Rolf has replaced our broken wheel. We are now happier than ever with our Rolf wheelset and with Rolf. It's a pleasure to do business with a company that stands behind their product ....
:beer:
Hello,
I have some Older Rolf Vector Pro wheels, wich I love but out of 3 pairs one rear did same thing , flange cracked and 3 spokes came loose!
Problem with Any High Tension Wheelsets is that if you ride over bad surface with lot of weight they can brake!
We have pair same prima wheels and so far after 7.000 miles no problem! but my front wheel will need new bearings since I can not ajust it. Wheel have play in and I tried ajust small pilot hole screw , but can not get play out.
My other wheels King/Velocity 32 hole set I build and they are amazing pair of wheels!
I would sugest to send those back to Detrich Rolf ( very cool guy!) he do not want to see bad pair floating out there!
trying to rebuild hight tension wheel ( about 300-400lbs ) wheel is not easy task.
And your new hub will be pricy! $250 =
Good luck!
I am glad you guys okay after this problem happen , when you rode.
Best
Les Korcala
Co-Motion Robusta
Lapierre Team tandem
Trek Madona 5.9
Trek Fuel 100
& much more...
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