Mountain Biking - Saint - again

I know there have been other posts about the Saint gruppo but here is one that actually does a bit of a review of the parts and goes into a little more detail about the engineering aspect.

I still don't like proprietary parts (reminds me of macs) but they sure look sexy for the first time.

http://www.nsmb.com/gear/saint_04_03.php

Looks sweet.

Won't use it until heck freezes over.

I like the derailieur idea but hopefully someone else will come up with a six-bolt hub that can take the new axle

I like what I'm currently running, but with prices on complete bikes, it's inevitable that I'll eventually have some. I DO like the new Rear Derailleur, and as soon as there is a kit to replace my rear axle to fit, I'll get it!

L8R

Get in line A2 :D
http://www.chibasports.com/images/battle.gif

You all can have it.

So what's your issue with it danka? :confused: I'd really like to hear this one.

I'm still mad about the change that is going to be done to xt in 2004, but it will eventually die out. But the reason I'm refusing the saint line is because I have other loyalties that shimano will eventually take away if I stay with them. Shimano is an evil empire right now, I don't want a bike that has 100% percent shimano parts, I'm actually having more problems with shimano than Sram currently, as of tomorrow I will be Shimano free.

geez Louis, 2003 stuff is hardly out and there's already 2004 specs released?

Just read the article more in-depth, and I really like the der. idea. That makes alot of sense. I also like the new BB and Crankset design that started with '03 XTR.

What changes to XT? I hadn't heard of anything. SRAM makes great stuff, but I love the idea of that Rear D

XT is going to go the way of XTR in 2004.

What do you mean? The new Crank / BB design or those goofy shifter / brake combo levers? Hubs too?

Both

I'm cool with the crank / BB deal but not the rest. How are SRAM;s trigger shifters coming? I can't stand twisties,but it looks like I might have to learn to like them, if all Shi**NO will give us is those stupid combo things

Originally posted by Maelstrom


I still don't like proprietary parts (reminds me of macs) but they sure look sexy for the first time.

That was my first thought when I saw it. The new stuff is good in some ways and not so good in others.


I was assured that this system will adapt easily to chainguides and E-type front derailleurs and one BB will fit either a 68- or 73mm shell using spacers that will be included.


The crankset(s) both use the new 2-piece design. It's light and very stiff, but the chainline is not perfect. I have an '03 XTR crankset on my bike and I had to reverse the spacers to get an even chainline. I put 2 spacers on the non-drive side, and one on the drive-side. The chain is even, but the crankset is left of center on the bike...granted only by a couple mm, but it's still a gripe.

If shimanot introduces XTR03 shifters to XT then we should all degrade to LX/Deore....and if they go further down the line then sram will be the only option....i really hate the new XTR....both cranks and shifters...

Raiyn, ahhh... LX shifers are still halfway decent, and you will be able to pick up XT parts real cheap after they swap format in 2004...

For the 2005 year, the LX gets the integrated BS.

The rear derailuer sounds cool, but I don't think I like the idea of the combined brake/shifters expanding to XT and LX. I admit I haven't tried them, but I feel more comfortable handling the tasks of shifting and braking seperately.
Might be when I buy my next new bike I will have to do the same thing as the last time I re-installed my OS: upgrade to the previous version.

Does anyone know if Shimano is ONLY going to produce the shifter/brake combo's. Seems to me, with so many different brake manufacturer's, that Shimano would HAVE to keep producing the Shifter Pod ONLY in addition to the shifter/brake combo's.

Can anyone verfiy or deny????

L8R

I think Shimano is dumb for trying to change something that's already great in the first place. Rapid Fire is awesome. Having completely seperate brake and shift functions is great. I haven't tried the integrated lever setup, but then again I DONT WANT TO!! Who asked them to change it anyway? It doesn't even save any weight over the original setup, so that's obviously not the reason. Don't throw away something old just because it's old! It works fine if you ask me. And if they stop producing the seperate shift/brake levers, I'd be willing to bet a bunch of people would be riding Gripshift! I liked Rapid Fire just the way it was.



And does anyone else think that having the derailler directly bolted to the axle seems like a VERY bad idea? Granted, it's a strong mounting point.... but tearing off the entire derailler as opposed to just the hanger seems a better option than completely mangling your entire derailler assembly.

Originally posted by Jim311

And does anyone else think that having the derailler directly bolted to the axle seems like a VERY bad idea? Granted, it's a strong mounting point.... but tearing off the entire derailler as opposed to just the hanger seems a better option than completely mangling your entire derailler assembly.

I think it is horrible...when something breaks something will REALLY be broken. I am a fan of weak cages and removable dropouts. If I run into something 50$ later my bike is running again. That can't be said for this new creation. When I have the cash and have actually tested the rapid fire pods from sram I intend to stop giving shimano my money.

I am not even going to get into the shifting combo. For freeriding. Has anone at shimano done any freeriding with this gruppo. What a joke.

And then the price. My god....I am done wih shimano.

Originally posted by danka24
For the 2005 year, the LX gets the integrated BS.


2005.....2 years from now. Cant we just forget about it and ride the shît thats out right now??

I think Shimano is shooting itself in the foot. And when they fall, they'll fall hard :D

I've always been something of a shimano fan, just for lack of anything better. Gripshifts are annoying at best, and the SRAM deraileur I tried was fubar. I'm glad to hear that they're making better stuff at this point. I would love to give Shimano some competition. Trying to establish firsts like this gives competitors a great chance to make up some ground. My hope: Shimano will see what its doing wrong and back up. In the meantime SRAM will gain some market, and hopefully the funds to improve its products. The thought of SRAM triggers is pleasing indeed.

SRAM does have trigger shifters :)

Thats why I'm so pleased :)

Have you tried em? What's the verdict?

Nah, I havn't. I'm just glad to hear that there will be an alternative while Shimano does its wierd thing for a while. SRAM is a pretty competent company, and shifters are among the simpler mechanisms on a bike. I'm fairly confident that by the time Shimano's are not to my liking the SRAM ones will be.

The reviews for the SRAM trigger shifters on MTBR seem to be somewhat sketchy. Some rave about them, others hate them.

I just want to add my 2 bits to the struggle.

While I dislike the Saint derailuer idea (because it is Saint Hub compatable only), everything else I love.

The cranks need no special hardwear to run. They are 100% stronger than XTR's. Stronger than Profile's, and 300 grams lighter.

The brakes are more potent, with better modulation, than the 4-pot XT's. They work with XT rotors and XT levers.

Except the hubs (which I really don't dig. I'd rather have a Chris King) and derailuer, everything else is open to the market.

I'll probally pro-deal a set of the Saint brakes and some XT levers and Hope rotors (203mm of course). It's between Saint's and Avid Juicy 7's.

I don't understand why no one likes the Saint stuff. Shimano did it right this time. It's XTR+. I've ridden a full gruppo XTR (save cranks, the cranks were FSA carbon), and everything about it was great.

The shifters are awesome, and take maybe 10 minutes to get used to. I wouldn't ride them because of reliability and durability issues, but I like the idea. It's effort free.

The brakes have modulation like you would never believe. Not the same power as is behind my Hayes Purple's, but they are good. And the Saint's are going to be even stronger.

Given the XTR gruppo, I just might bite on the Saint brakes.

So you wouldn't be using anything saint at all. The whole point behind the saint gruppo is

a) the hub, deraileur interaction to protect the der
b) the shifter/brake combo which doesn't allow ANY other options. This makes no sense as I have said when dhillers and freeriders always keep one or two fingers on the brake. One slip and you misshift...

For me, even after being on many bikes with the gruppo it still doesn't make sense as a freeride gruppo...

Just doesn't make sense period for integrated shifting/braking in my opinion. Especially in the downhill/freeride world where parts are often broken and crashes are frequent. Break your brake lever and not only are you 400 dollars in the hole, but you've walkin out too.

Originally posted by BAC5.2
[B]I don't understand why no one likes the Saint stuff.[B]


I like it, thats all that matters:D

I really like the Saint crankarm. Shimano really needed something a little more robust in their range to assist the bigger and harder riders who dont want flexibility in their cranks.

God!, there so much ignorance about this new Shimano stuff. Have any of you who bash the new stuff actually emailed Shimano ands asked them what will be availabel next year?
Probably not
I have and this is the answer:

next year:

M960/5 XTR (current as per 2003 - no update for at least 2-3yrs, continuous refinements as running changes)
M860 "Saint" Will be compatible with M960/5 or M950 Thats 2002 and earlier 9s RF+ shifter pods which will CONTINUE in production till at least 2006. NOTE "AT LEAST"

M760 XT: Similar to XTR in concept. 2 piece cranks, with Dual control shifters splined rotor attachment for hte hubs etc
M750 Series XT; Which is current stuff and will continue in production till AT LEAST 2007! NOTE AT LEAST.

Deore LX will reamin largley unchanged
Deore will be unchanged


As for Saint, the only essential, no compromise components are the Rear derailleur and the rear Hub. The rear hub will need a Shimnao splined Brake disc rotor of around 180mm or 203mm (industry std) but will be compatible with most brake calipers that allow rotors of those dimentions ie Hayes, magura.

hving recently sampled a Gemini 3000 (XTR equiped) test bike in North Wales I can assure you that misshifts with the Dual control levers are very difficult to achieve unless you have no idea how to operate a brake lever. The differenc in the pull direction is very distinct. Although the M950 Rapid Fire + shifters will still be available to those with learning disabilities.

SA for the cranks, they maynot be the prettiest cranks about but they are stiffer than a stiff thing (XTR) and they will shortly be on my XC race bike.

I thought this forum was a pklac where people could learn about tuff but it seems there more religious dogma and biased persoanl opinion than fact.
If you would like confirmation on what I said wrt availability of components for next year I suggest you email Shimano Europe yourselves and get the ifo from the horses mouth.
But please, do not post BS about Shimano only having new stlye components available for next year.
Next year there wil be more choice than ever before and at varous price points.
Please get informed.

Your ignorance to other peoples opinions is overwhelming. During a bunny hop, drop or other bar movement intense movements I found the dual control to be a pretty stupid idea (the cost is really outrageous too), I found it about as good as gripshift which I also tend not to like. Either way I am getting sick of your blind ignorance to my and other peoples opinions. Fine you worship shimano, congrats. I have stated my opinions and have used the product to be sure and all of my concerns stand as a freerider. I don't give a flying rats ass about XTR as that gruppo isn't designed for me in mind anyways. Initially reports were that the rapid fire xt/lx line was going to be weeded out by 2004/2005 and those reports were from online e-zines. Glad to hear they were wrong.

Since you do seem to have done some research I am curious you mention other pricepoints. Are they doing multiple pricepoints for saint as well.

I did not realize about the brakes. Thats pretty cool that they are doing that. Still don't like the hub/deraileur but hey thats me.



to those with learning disabilities


Wow, quick witted aren't we. I have a learning disability and you are an ignorant slug. We are quite the pair.

Yes, we should all conform to the almighty TimB's wise opinions on what we should use, reguardless of whatever pathetic setups we run (and like) right now. Because Shimano obviously knows what we should ride better than we do. The point isn't that we CANT learn how to ride a bike with integrated shifting and braking, it's that we DONT want to learn because what we're riding right now works great. Don't fix it if it aint broke. Is that hard to understand? Not to mention the rediculous price of the entire setup. And God forbid you break a lever and be out 400 bucks and a long walk home. All the consumer is asking for is products that work with OTHER products, and things that they like. It just doesn't seem like a GOOD IDEA.. and nobody is going to drop over a grand on a setup that doesn't seem like a good idea, now are they? They're going to buy whatever looks the best for their personal needs. There's no sense in calling anyone names just because you're stuck on Shimano. The days of Shimano's componentry domination are numbered if they don't respond to what the consumer wants. I've ridden some quality Shimano stuff, and their older XTR stuff was really top notch.. but lately their new "innovations" and poor quality on the latest Shimano parts (Specifically, my XT rear hub.. it's internals are junk in my opinion) has me trying to remove everything Shimano from my bike if possible. There's gonna have to be some major changes in quality and some great innovations in order to get me to shy away from the setup I'm using now. I think for the last few years Shimano has relied on it's little monopoly that it had. It used to be that Shimano was the largest manufacturer, and they could get away with having sub-par stuff because it was either buy from them or don't ride. Now Shimano has big competition and it's struggling to come out with the latest and greatest. But offering us something we didn't really ask for isn't going to help them in my opinion. All this to say... I'll ride whatever the hell I want, and I don't need anyone calling me ignorant for picking and choosing my parts wisely. I'm a college student with a limited income, so I don't have room for junk parts sitting around my garage, nor the room in my bank account. So excuse the hell out of me for being opposed to major changes in my bike's componentry, and staying away from things that just flat out don't seem like a good idea.

Oh I like this. The typical argument about groupsets. So aged.

You guys need to calm down! I'm on the verge of deleting this thread or at the least the responses with name calling. That's a big no-no! So, grow up guys, stop the name calling and have a rational discussion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, let's just keep it civil!

L8R

Originally posted by Jim311
Just doesn't make sense period for integrated shifting/braking in my opinion. Especially in the downhill/freeride world where parts are often broken and crashes are frequent. Break your brake lever and not only are you 400 dollars in the hole, but you've walkin out too.

spares for the shifters/brakelever combo will be available separatley.

Also it is very hard to brake the lever since it is articulated in a 3D plane. Vertical and horizontal plus both simultaneously. If you are unfortuante to break something see the first paragraph of this post.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
During a bunny hop, drop or other bar movement intense movements I found the dual control to be a pretty stupid idea (the cost is really outrageous too), I found it about as good as gripshift which I also tend not to like.

I've never seen someone hold thebrake lever whil executing a bunny hop.
But since thats your style then as you say it's not for you. However your opinion that it is the dumbest thing for freeride is purely subject to your'unique' riding style, There are others who like it.
Also no ones forcing you to buy Shimano Dual Control nor Rapid Fire plus for that matter. Don't like it don't buy.
Which magazine / website do you write for. I'd like to know so I can avoid having to read your drivel.


Either way I am getting sick of your blind ignorance to my and other peoples opinions. Fine you worship shimano, congrats. I have stated my opinions and have used the product to be sure and all of my concerns stand as a freerider.

Once again reading words between the lines that ares'nt there. I'm not going to get into religion with you but a bike component company hardly qualifies.
Also what is a freerider? What is freeride? Please define as nobody seems to know...


I don't give a flying rats ass about XTR as that gruppo isn't designed for me in mind anyways. Initially reports were that the rapid fire xt/lx line was going to be weeded out by 2004/2005 and those reports were from online e-zines. Glad to hear they were wrong.

In the press release for M960 XTR it was clearly stated that M950 XTR would be phased out starting end 2004 depending on demand for spares. Word from Shimano is that it would mostlikely still be available till much later. In effect two groups runing next to each other. The old hubs will be pahse out but the RF+ shifters will remain for at least another 3yrs.
Also Shimano has not yet decide which shifter it will dedicate to Saint. It's waiting to see what the 'freeride' fraternity wants. So heres your chance to tell them.
Other RF shifters will remain longer due to the higher market penetration of those components.


Since you do seem to have done some research I am curious you mention other pricepoints. Are they doing multiple pricepoints for saint as well.

Depending on demand for Saint in 2004, they are considering a low cost version for 2005/6. However due to the robust engineering and manufacturing principles involved the cost reduction is not likely to be similar in ratio to XTR vs XT which is nearly 2:1.
Also remember the only really expensive bits are the derailleur and Hubs.
Everything will b competitivly price against competition of similar quality.
The hubs are of similar strength to Kings, the derailleur has no equal currently on the market. Shifters can be anything from Deore to XTR RF+ or DUal control (yes I know you don't like it).
Brakes can be anysystem than can accomodate shimano size rotors ie 203mm or 180mm
And before you rant about how XTR rotors ar not compatible with Saint theres good reason for that.
1) Freeride part for freeride XC for Xc
2) the Saint uses a massive 20mm axle, somewhat larger than XTR. Bigger axle = bigger bearibng = bigger cavity to house bearings = bigger spline diameter.


I did not realize about the brakes. Thats pretty cool that they are doing that. Still don't like the hub/derailleur but hey thats me.

Yes it is cool about the brakes. It' even cooler that they are keeping cup and cone bearings which from an engineering point of view is vastly better than equivalent cartridge bearings. You'll need to go to Chris King quality cartridge bearings and hence cost to = cup and cone bearings for loading bearing capacity.
You don't have to like them, just acknowledge that they do know a bit more than you in terms of what works better from an engineering point of view.




Wow, quick witted aren't we. I have a learning disability and you are an ignorant slug. We are quite the pair.

sometimes extreme, but never slow.
Slug! hardly, I have backbone and the courage of my convictions.

I'm not a Shimano lover but I do appreciate excellent engineering and from what I've seen with Saint, theres plenty of that in the Gruppo.

PS: I loved Gripshift and SRAM. Best shifting I ever had, only equaled by Shimano's rapid rise derailleur. Only reason I switched is because of ergonomics. At 171cm I don't have the worlds largest hands so trying to shift while braking with SRAM = pain and discomfort. Dual Control is a god send for me. Thats why i swear by it. And because theres RF+ and Dual Control available theres plenty of choice for everyone.

Now I've said my peace without bashing anyone. or SRAM.

It may be a good idea to find out the correct information wrt something you're not sure about. It's far more credible than slamming a product you don't fully understand..

ya ya ya I know You don't like the shifters get over yourself....:beer:

There u go all that info from someone who had no interst in 'freeride'. I just ride

I've skimmed over most of these posts and i really don't care :) I'm still using LX rapid fire shifters from 1996 and they still work great, though i think soon i will buy some new XT pods. I like rapid fire though i'm interested to try out this new brake lever shifter i've been seeing around, i like to brake and shift at the same time sometimes, can you do this with these? I'm also a poor college student so price/performance is very important to me, i definately won't be buying many xtr/saint parts anytime soon i have the feeling.

I agree with A2 that we should be calm. I condemn shimano new ideas. I dont like them but thats just me. I ll stick only to XT 4pot discs. The rest....canadian...Raceface mostly. I like traditional engineering...not hightech mumbo jumpo ...rapidrise and stuff..... rapidfire is just fine.... and its funny to see shimano on the freeride wagon...we are gonna have a laugh.

Booo capitalism, wait, no