"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Cycling the "Dirty" Sport Part II

Some how the thread that Doc Ray started yesterday got zapped. I thought it was relevant so here we go again.



Cycling: - 3.78% - 482 positives out of 12,751 tests
Baseball: - 3.69% - - 390/10,580
Triathlon: - 3.14% - - 74/2,170
Archery: - 2.94% - 25/850
Golf: - 5.21% - 20/384
Rugby: - 2.46% - 113/4,601
Ice Hockey: - 2.87% - 79/2,751
Boxing: - 3.14% - 83/2433
Volleyball: - 2.06% - 54/2161
Weightlifting: - 2.50% - 146/5842
Athletics: - 1.67% - 342/20,464
Football (Soccer): 1.46% - 343/23,478
Billiards: - 9.96% - 28/281
Motorcycle Racing: 3.23% - 12/372
Underwater sports: 3.22% - 12/373
Orienteering: - 2.09% - 10/479
Bandy: - 3.94% - 8/203
55.2% of all Adverse Analytical Findings were Anabolic agents (43.4%) or stimulants.
60.7% of AAF for Anabolic agents the identified substance was Testosterone.

What about arm-wrestling? Those guys (and gals) have gotta be juicing. I demand an immediate investigation...

Wow.....one would think that A) bodybuilders/powerlifters would rank the highest for steroid use, and B) BILLIARDS?!?!?!

I was trying to post this yesterday during the crash. Where did this golf testing info come from? As of now none of the PGA tours test for PEs, Tiger and others are calling for it. I believe the LPGA is either about to start or has just started testing in the last couple of months.

With Golf not being an olympic sport...who is testing and reporting these results?

This from Pedro Delgado in a VN interview. The line about getting your blood drawn at 6am is pretty telling. This would never happen in any other sport but is allowed in cycling. WADA and Dick Pound have a 'special' interest in cycling.


Doping will always exist, but why does nothing happen in other sports, in football for example? Because if something like that happened in football, the athletes would stop playing, the players would go on strike and La Liga would stop. In tennis, the situation would never get to the point it has in cycling because the top thirty players would just refuse to play tournaments. If the top 30 don't play there would be no tournaments. They would just go on strike. In these sports they accept controls, but reasonable ones. Nobody enters into the homes of tennis players, or football players, nobody wakes them up at 6 a.m. to take their blood before a 200 kilometer race, as happens in cycling.

. I believe the LPGA is either about to start or has just started testing in the last couple of months.



perhaps they should test for Y chromosones.

Those filthy filthy billiards players... My faith in professional billiards had been forever tarnished!

And why would anyone dope for bandy??? That's like doping for horseshoes or curling... or billiards!

Underwater sports?
Is being narced (nitrogen narcosis) a violation of WADA doping rules?
what underwater sports?

and what about curling? I bet those canucks are juiced to the gills.

Some how the thread that Doc Ray started yesterday got zapped. I thought it was relevant so here we go again....
Just out of curiosity, who really believes that doping is substantially worse in cycling than other sports?

I can understand why Americans have that impression, since OP implicated a large number of cyclists, and the winner of the 2006 TdF (i.e. the only event most people know about) is accused of doping.

At the same time, the doping issue in US baseball has gotten so bad that Congress threatened to pass federal legislation if the sport doesn't clean it's act up. I'm not aware of any Congressional hearings into road bike racing yet.... ;)



The line about getting your blood drawn at 6am is pretty telling. This would never happen in any other sport but is allowed in cycling. WADA and Dick Pound have a 'special' interest in cycling.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but: cyclists are subjected to blood tests to check their hematocrit levels. EPO boosts your hematocrit, but if it gets too high, you can induce heart failure.

If cyclists weren't willing to take potentially lethal doses of EPO, the blood tests would not be necessary. I think it's pretty clear where the blame lies for this one.

I might add that one likely reason why baseball apparently has a massive doping/amphetamine problem is because the player's union is exceptionally strong, and has resisted frequent testing and strong penalties for years. I'm not clear on who benefits from a strong union that resists frequent testing, other than the dopers....

I might add that one likely reason why baseball apparently has a massive doping/amphetamine problem is because the player's union is exceptionally strong, and has resisted frequent testing and strong penalties for years. I'm not clear on who benefits from a strong union that resists frequent testing, other than the dopers....

That's the crux of the situation in cycling. They have no strong union so the UCI and WADA can test them however and whenever they please. In Football (Soccer) they are probably juiced to the gills but they would never allow WADA to treat them they way they treat cyclists. I'm not saying that cyclists are not doping but if the other major international sports were subjected to doping controls the way cyclist are you'd see the same types of scandals in them as well.

That's the crux of the situation in cycling. They have no strong union so the UCI and WADA can test them however and whenever they please. In Football (Soccer) they are probably juiced to the gills but they would never allow WADA to treat them they way they treat cyclists. I'm not saying that cyclists are not doping but if the other major international sports were subjected to doping controls the way cyclist are you'd see the same types of scandals in them as well.

+1000

Doping is so prevalent at the high end of any sport its just not even funny. Heck, I remember my sophmore year of (American) football in highschool we had kids 'roiding. In my gym rat days I had guys in the locker room offer to sell me a "cycle" of steroids. I was so naive at first it took me a while to pick up on what the heck he was talking about. I'm fairly confident its at the elite level of all sports and not just cycling.

perhaps they should test for Y chromosones.

They do for many sports already. Sometimes the "woman" doesn’t even know she is really a guy because of an androgen insensitivity disorder.

and what about curling? I bet those canucks are juiced to the gills.

Oh we're juiced alright.... Beer and curling....right up there with pot and snowboarding.
:lol: It's a must. What are those billiard players on, beta blockers like chess players?

I can't find the link that was in the first thread but all sorts of stuff is on the ban list....Pot......Crank.....Coke....so that would cover the snowboarders and pool players..lol not to generalize or anything...


I am willing to bet those "other" sports have there ways of cheating as well.....if it is a competition there will be a cheat, no matter how long or how short the competition is.

Personally I believe we need better ways of catching cheats. It is interesting that teams are instituting there own doping controls. I see this as distrust in the current doping tests preformed by the WADA. I think that the WADA has no checks except the controls they institute themselves. The teams doping control will provide that much needed check to this system. It will also make the WADA think twice before they "leak" a rumor about a positive or a possible positive.

I foresee a decrease in cycling positives this next year...in the end the WADA will take the credit for it but in truth it will be the teams that are the cause.

Wow what a rant!!!

Oh we're juiced alright.... Beer and curling....right up there with pot and snowboarding.
:lol: It's a must. What are those billiard players on, beta blockers like chess players?

Yep, beta blockers. Same as Curlers.

The second biggest industry in Canada is "Doritos".

20/384 golfers test postive, about 160% the rate of cyclists, but Pound never goes on about them.
In their defense, the golfers likely just use uppers to keep awake.

Note how low weightlifting is. Proof that testing and test results mean nothing.

What happened to the OP??

and american football is not an IOC sport so it isn't even on the radar, I don't think it is a wild guess that the numbers for american football would be higher than baseball perhaps even surpassing the "Dirty" sport?

I can't find the link that was in the first thread but all sorts of stuff is on the ban list....

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/2007_List_En.pdf

Yep, beta blockers. Same as Curlers.

The second biggest industry in Canada is "Doritos".

20/384 golfers test postive, about 160% the rate of cyclists, but Pound never goes on about them.
In their defense, the golfers likely just use uppers to keep awake.

Note how low weightlifting is. Proof that testing and test results mean nothing.

What happened to the OP??


Dick doesn't go after Golfers because most people don't consider them athletes. If he did go after them no one would take him seriously.

If WADA tested swimmers, track and field athletes and footballers (soccer) the way they test cyclist you'd see a lot more positives in those sports as well.

A number of topics disappeared after the server went down last night. Oddly several of them had to do with doping.

WADA labs retaliates, hacks and crashes america based bikeforums. More at 11.

They're testing chess players now too, apparantly.

Chess players to face anti-doping measures
Tue Nov 28, 2006 5:17 PM GMT
DOHA (Reuters) - Chess's world governing body will introduce dope testing at the Asian Games this week, although the sport's top official in Doha said he had no idea how drugs could enhance chess performance.

"I would not know which drug could possibly help a chess player to improve his game," competition manager Yousuf Ahmad Ali said.

"But, yes, there will be official monitors who may demand that players undergo a drugs test after the rounds."

Drug testing is the latest move by the World Chess Federation (FIDE) to raise international standards in the hope of making chess an Olympic sport in the future.

Along with triathlon, chess is making its debut at the Asian Games, where more than 60 players will compete for the medals.

Among them are ex-world champions Rustam Kasimdzhanov of Uzbekistan and Zhu Chen, a former Chinese international who has switched nationality to represent hosts Qatar.

The Asian Games take place from December1-15.

A number of topics disappeared after the server went down last night. Oddly several of them had to do with doping.

PROOF that Lance armstrong reads BF and is a hacker.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=248603

Drug testing is the latest move by the World Chess Federation (FIDE) to raise international standards in the hope of making chess an Olympic sport in the future.



Right after Bowling, celebrity poker and dominoes.

We need a third set of Olympic games between winter and summer games, the ****** Olympics.

I remember a story in OMNI magazine yeaaaars ago about the Olympics in the future. Full on genetic engineering of the atheletes....swimmers with webbed hands/feet and gills, wrestlers with croc dna and snakes type skin, pole vaulters with hollow bones like birds...etc etc. Are we merely delaying the inevitable in that we can't stop them, and are simply holding on to an ideal that disappeared years ago?

I don't how sports will EVER be fixed to be fair to everyone that plays, but I do know that genies resist being stuffed back into the bottle.

Omni? The "Science" magazine published by a porn king?

Right after Bowling, celebrity poker and dominoes.

We need a third set of Olympic games between winter and summer games, the ****** Olympics.

Maybe if the chess set was altered so that each piece was 6 feet tall and 500 lbs.

Omni? The "Science" magazine published by a porn king?
I was young at the time I was reading that mag... I have no idea who was publishing it.
It was chock full O science though, and some great fiction as well.

What the hell is 'Bandy'?

Orienteering: the EPO abuse must be rampant in THAT brutal sport, eh?

Orienteering: the EPO abuse must be rampant in THAT brutal sport, eh?

Well, you can be climbing over mountains and **** if the course is particularly brutal.....but I'm still amazed at billiards. And now chess?

Stoner: "So dude....you like, into sports?"
Geek: "Yes...I love sports."
Stoner: "That's cool....what sports you play, man..."
Geek: "Well, I do fancy a good chess match...."
Stoner: ".............No dude, I said SPORTS...."
Geek: "Chess IS in fact a sport, soon to be recognized by the Olympic committee."
Stoner: "You've gotta be ****ting me dude...what's next, fat kids in Oreo eating contests?"
Geek: "Well, technically that could be considered a sport."
Stoner: "Dude I would soooooo win that on a good night...."

I was less blown away by the 'odd' sports that were included as I was by the bias toward testing cyclist. If I were a pro I'd be pretty tee'd off about it.

I was less blown away by the 'odd' sports that were included as I was by the bias toward testing cyclist. If I were a pro I'd be pretty tee'd off about it.

Yeah, pretty much....although if all the top teams decided to boycott the TdF next year, I think that would send a big message. It'll never happen, but it would be interesting if it ever did.

I'd prefer they do it with the Giro though, since we don't get crap for TV coverage on that anyway.

Wow! I was surprised how little soccer players dope (must have good trainers ;) )

BTW, What the heck is "Bandy"?

What the hell is 'Bandy'?

Orienteering: the EPO abuse must be rampant in THAT brutal sport, eh?

http://www.geocities.com/bandytips/English/Bandyhistory.html

Swedes rule in Bandy.

I'm pushing for Forum Posting Biathlon as a 2010 Winter Games demonstration event, you argue on-line with competitors, then ski after them and shoot them.

I was young at the time I was reading that mag... I have no idea who was publishing it.
It was chock full O science though, and some great fiction as well.

Bob Guccionne of Penthouse published it. They had some cool science fiction stories, but the science was about as accurate as Star Trek.

Now he's re-launching the magazine with his new wife...(they're real, ...really)

http://www.mediabistro.com/fishbowlny/original/Those%20Gucciones,%20what%20a%20pair!.jpg

Dick doesn't go after Golfers because most people don't consider them athletes. If he did go after them no one would take him seriously.
It's gotten to the point where I don't take him seriously now.

I was less blown away by the 'odd' sports that were included as I was by the bias toward testing cyclist. If I were a pro I'd be pretty tee'd off about it.
Where, exactly, is the evidence of bias in these stats?

US Baseball, 10,000+ tests. Soccer, 23,000 tests. Cycling, 12,000+ tests. Weightlifting, 5800+ tests. Is WADA biased against soccer because they got tested twice as much as cycling...?

In addition, AFAIK cycling has had numerous deaths attributed to PED use. Is that also the case for golf and billiards? Or soccer? Or baseball?

Even if you have numbers of participating athletes, and can show for example that the average cyclist gets tested 4x more than soccer, you still don't have evidence of "bias." What you have is a higher testing frequency, period.

Union strength suppresses testing frequency in some sports (US baseball, soccer, maybe hockey) but not others (presumably golf, boxing, weightlifting, triathlon etc). Higher frequencies of PED-related death incidents in cycling are also a motivation for frequent tests.

WADA may want cyclists to test more than other sports, and/or WADA management may be unhappy with the UCI, and/or WADA may think cycling has a bigger issue than other sports, but you'll have to look elsewhere for evidence of some kind of "anti-cycling bias" by WADA.

Where, exactly, is the evidence of bias in these stats?

US Baseball, 10,000+ tests. Soccer, 23,000 tests. Cycling, 12,000+ tests. Weightlifting, 5800+ tests. Is WADA biased against soccer because they got tested twice as much as cycling...?

In addition, AFAIK cycling has had numerous deaths attributed to PED use. Is that also the case for golf and billiards? Or soccer? Or baseball?

Even if you have numbers of participating athletes, and can show for example that the average cyclist gets tested 4x more than soccer, you still don't have evidence of "bias." What you have is a higher testing frequency, period.

Union strength suppresses testing frequency in some sports (US baseball, soccer, maybe hockey) but not others (presumably golf, boxing, weightlifting, triathlon etc). Higher frequencies of PED-related death incidents in cycling are also a motivation for frequent tests.

WADA may want cyclists to test more than other sports, and/or WADA management may be unhappy with the UCI, and/or WADA may think cycling has a bigger issue than other sports, but you'll have to look elsewhere for evidence of some kind of "anti-cycling bias" by WADA.

The bias isn't in the stats but the procedures. Soccer players are not subject to police raids and arrests when altitude tents are found, even though they weren't banned. Soccer players don't have blood taken at 6am the morning of a World Cup match. Nor do they have their names leaked or publicly called guilty by the head of WADA. Have you heard the name of one Soccer player that was involved in OP? Has Dick Pound come out and castigated any other sports figure involved in OP? No only cyclists. This is primarily because the players stand together to make sure these things don't happen.

Look I'm not saying that cyclist should be allowed to get away with doping, but if you are going to treat cycling one way you should treat other major sports the same.

It's gotten to the point where I don't take him seriously now.

I can't take Bob Guccionne seriously either. How many face lifts has that guy had!?

Bob Guccionne of Penthouse published it. They had some cool science fiction stories, but the science was about as accurate as Star Trek.

Now he's re-launching the magazine with his new wife...(they're real, ...really)


Looking back...I was a kid when I read it... I guess it was projection science....but it certainly got me interested with the possibilities of science. So I guess it worked. Hey, I'll pick up a copy of the new one.

Some of the looking-into-the-future stuff must of happened. Are we still celebrating the Sci-fi essays of 60 years ago I think that brought us our orbital telecommunications network? Was that Asimov?


So sorry for the highjack.
It would be kinda cool to see the riders stand up to the "Man" as it were and refuse to ride. As cycling seems to have been battling this doping bug longer than many sports, they do seem to suffer some seriously disporporionate punishments. The 6am blood call, et al. It is sports after all, they're not operating on people while drunk or anything.

So sorry for the highjack.
It would be kinda cool to see the riders stand up to the "Man" as it were and refuse to ride. As cycling seems to have been battling this doping bug longer than many sports, they do seem to suffer some seriously disporporionate punishments. The 6am blood call, et al. It is sports after all, they're not operating on people while drunk or anything.

Cyclist have stood up before, Hinault's strike being one of the more famous, to protest what they felt was wrong or unjust. My feeling that they don't do it over doping is because they are guilty. Innocent people protest against a perceived injustice, while the guilty would rather not have the light shinned upon them.

I can see that but I gota agree with you that cyclings' governing bodies do seem to be going a bit over the top to curb the uncurbable.

I might add that one likely reason why baseball apparently has a massive doping/amphetamine problem is because the player's union is exceptionally strong, and has resisted frequent testing and strong penalties for years. I'm not clear on who benefits from a strong union that resists frequent testing, other than the dopers....Interesting. Me, I can't figure out who benefits from testing for dope as currently carried out by the UCI. I know it's not the fan, I hate the scandals. Whereas a strong union that prevented and reduced the level of scandal (in part by resisting strong penalties) would have secured a very big benefit all around.

It's gotten to the point where I don't take him seriously now.

you mean after you heard his name was Dick Pound?

It is sports after all, they're not operating on people while drunk or anything.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I guess the point of the Velonews rant is that cycling is no dirtier or cleaner than most sports, yet cycling as a sport is being crucified in the press. WADA's own data supports this, but the Dick Pounder has chosen cycling as the model sport to control doping.

I don't think testing and banning will fix this. The only real potential fix is from the sponsors. T-Mobile and CSC are sending in independent doctors to monitor the teams and directeurs. Ishares proved that a doping scandal is the best way to lose a sponsor. You can argue ethics with teams all day, but the one universal carrot is the $$$.

...and hopefully with Teams keeping an eye on the whole process, maybe, just maybe we'll get a positive result. Pun intended :lol:

Billiards HAHAHAHA

I think they did it for fun here

...and hopefully with Teams keeping an eye on the whole process, maybe, just maybe we'll get a positive result. Pun intended :lol:


And you think the teams weren't keeping track of the doping before?

yea except in trying to make sure noone got caught...now they can;t assure that anymore with these Draconian tactics so.... clean it up yourselfs , or manage the cheating and get tossed as a team thus losing the sponsors money.

How obscure is friggin 'bandy' when I'm 49 years old, a sports fan who has traveled extensively in the US and Europe, and I've NEVER HEARD OF THE SPORT BEFORE, not ever.

God, that makes me feel better about cycling in general. Isn't it great there's a sport that makes yours look positively mainstream?

How the hell do they find an ice rink the size of a football field? Of course the 'Swedes rule' in bandy. That's the only place outside of Russia with weather cold enough to freeze the giant lakes you need to play this whacky sport. Why do I get the distinct impression that bandy is just an excuse for post-bandy drinking sessions by the participants?

The fact that people dope in orienteering is still cracking me up. You'd think the big drug they test positive for there is ganga.

The fact that people dope in orienteering is still cracking me up. You'd think the big drug they test positive for there is ganga.

Considering what they do, it's not surprising at all. When you get into the mountains, especially at higher elevations, and considering that this is an endurance sport, having a high VO2 max is key. We all know what drug gives you that.

I'm on one of my periodic sojourns to India. They're currently holding the national junior athletics champioships here in Bengooluru (Bangalore rebranded) and there are reports in the papers of syringes and other doping paraphenalia being found in the restrooms in the athletics stadium, and the speculation is that it's the athletes, not junkies or the press planting them. It's a flat world if the reports are true.