Any opinions on Giordana's Tenax Pro Jacket? I think I've found the best solution and didn't know if anyone's tried it. Its a non-membrane (AFAIK) breathable windproof paneled cycling jacket featuring side panels/pits that are more breathable. Assos and Descente do this, as do a few others. Unlike cycling vests that are just a mesh in the back, these jackets feature a material that lets more air pass back there without making you suffer in freezing temps.
Puff testing has been a litmus test for me and I am impressed by how consistent the puff tests are vs what people write about. Simply put, more breath passes through more breathable fabrics. I've dismissed some stuff on the racks that lets the air run too quick, or not at all. Of course, temperature affects these membranes somewhat, but they should be more open in a store, right? Gore and Gavia (PI) let no perceivable air pass. Event lets about as much go by as the Tenax's "Activa Plus GTB" and other fabrics were more free flowing than "windproof". Lastly, the side panels varied greatly on different garmets. Some go from non-permeable to what would have to be awful free-flow for the real cold, while other materials used as the "venting" portion, like Roubaix, still put up enough fight that real low temps probably wouldn't be too bad.
Am I off base going about it this way. C'mon everybody, its time to play Whack-a-noobie!
TIA
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
Well what does the store say about you putting your lips on every jacket :p More power to ya if you can get away with it :beer:
How does Tenax do under wet, snowy conditions? ...wondering if the open zips take on water.
Hezz
I thought the Tenax pro jacket looked pretty good but I am going to try out an inexpensive idea after christmas.
Performance bike has a really inexpensive cycling jacket made of polarfleece. Doesn't look real high tech but looks really breathable and it's only 30 USD. I'm going to try one mid weight polar fleece long sleeve shirt next to the skin and then this performance jacket. Then some kind of inexpensive but rather breathable wind breaking cycling jacket.
Pretty much an inexpensive approach.
Portis
The jacket is the most often discussed, least critical item in winter cycling. I make this point because i see it all the time on here. Nothing wrong with spending some money on a jacket, because it will get you nice things like pit zips etc., but all in all unless you need waterproof, just about any unlined jacket you can find will work in the winter.
vrkelley
Depending on conditions, you may NOT want something that breathes too much. Well it depends on the distance. If you're 30mil out and your core shuts down because of wind. rain or cold, suddenly that outer layer has priority.
Jarery
According to http://www.steepplanet.com/proddetail.php?prod=FORMAJKT06
The material is "The intermediate layer is a WindTex membrane, windproof, waterproof, lightweight, elastic, and breathable." So it is a membrane type waterproof/breathable jacket and not a bicomponent weave style.
It looks good, although looks pretty form fitting for a winter jacket. Make sure you can try one on in a store and not online so you can see if it'll fit your layering underneath.
My guess is it would be good for cold climates, too warm for southwest coast, and would not keep you dry in northwest. So really depends on your location, and wether you tend to overheat, feel cold, sweat, etc.
What elements are you most in, cold, wind, or rain ?
MichaelW
I call this the Huff Test and agree that it is a good measure of practical breathability in windproofs.
Portis
I call this the Huff Test and agree that it is a good measure of practical breathability in windproofs.
While you are doing this "huff test" also notice how much force you are using to blow air through the fabric. Then realize that that sort of force wont be exerted on the jacket in real conditions. Some jackets allow more air to flow through, i will admit, but known of them, "breathe." While riding, you generate a LOT of heat, the best way to get rid of this is via zippers, nothing breathes better than while it is completely open.
MichaelW
I have a featherweight summer windproof which is fairly permeable to the Huff test compared to my winter windproof. I have tried wearing the featherweight in winter but the cold air just knifes through the material. The winter windproof is a bit too clammy in summer.
Whilst zips can be useful, when the wind is icy you need to shift some moist air but retain heat. I have zippers on my gortex jacket but I really don't want freezing air mixing up with clammy moisture inside the jacket. I am much more comfortable in a permeable winter windproof even though it lacks pit-zips.
Portis
I find the pitzips on my goretex jacket to be very functional. I end up using them on about every ride.
wogamax
Thanks for responses. I am in Boston and go out early in the am during winter, so 10F to just above the freezing point will be the application. I've been using a full windstopper with zips down to 25-27 degrees.
MichaelW wrote:
I am much more comfortable in a permeable winter windproof even though it lacks pit-zips.
Agree, though I didn't notice the Giordana is a membrane according to what Jarery found out. Pit zips, when its 10-20F get chilly, and that they are both necessary and do this is why I was hoping for a slightly more permeable alternative. Windtex, FWIW, does seem to let a little more huff pass through.
I haven't pulled the trigger, yet, and was going to today. No rush. If one wanted to spend the most money, 'airblock" is found in the $569 "fugujack", by Assos. AFAIK, another membrane. I suppose you don't always get what you pay for and that maybe this jacket is a sweatbox, but I do give the company some credit and see a lot of high intensisty cyclists in some of their other partial airblock stuff. Anyway, paneled membrane with side-venting (that isn't too liberal) is a front runner, right now.
[EDIT] about the form fit. It does become an issue, especially when moisture "short circuits" the outer shell. I was getting a nausiating feeling from this with two jerseys and gore-tex. Even a nylon liner becomes important, IMO for a form fit. You need at least some loft for these temps.
Jarery
I find the pitzips on my goretex jacket to be very functional. I end up using them on about every ride.
heh, thats because if your wearing goretex and cycling you NEED pit zips. It just doesnt allow enough sweat out.
The giordana is panaled so it does have somewhere for sweat to get out, but id your looking for a winter jacket to block wind and temperatures id recomend a bicomponent softshell. I have not found any made specific for cycling other than ibex, and theirs for cyclign is fairly lightweight one i think.
Pesonally i wear an Ibex Neve in the winter, both on and off the bike, its my most worn peice of clothing. There are other companies that make good jackets, beyondfleece is another.
http://ibexwear.com/
http://www.beyondfleece.com/
Look for ones made with Schoeller's Dry Skin Extreme like the Cold Play, it will breathe better than darn near anything else. Or move to one of the others if you need more wind protection.
vrkelley
Yeah, it's always good to check around...
There are many well made jackets and competitively priced. The jacket should do more than keep you warm. You might want to consider jacket length, reflectivity and stuff like pockets.
Most jackets lack the reflectivity for biking in that busy Boston area. You can check out the critiques for $150 jackets or maybe post a thread in the Commuter forum asking what other Boston rider's wear.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=151193
wogamax
I did see that Boston thread. Unfortunately, most of the jackets have been discontinued. I tried looking for:
Ibex speedplay jacket
Marmot ATV (04) softshell
EMS Apollo
EMS Gunk
Also, many of the links were dead. It's sad there aren't any that are exclusively for biking (reflective, back pockets, etc.). I gave up on the Giordana. There is just too much transition from the impervious front panels to the breezy sides. Like an open door when sub-20F, I bet. That thread did get me more focused on WB-400, Cloudveil and a few others, but I am happy taking suggestions. I'll be reading up on the current EMS line up and BeyondFleece, too.
vrkelley
I got mine from Backcountry. They don't spam ya with e-mail constantly either.
It's warmer than the Ibex wool soft shell. The jacket needs a base layer for temps below 40F and an outer wind layer from 35F and below. It's water resistent and works well with a thin waterproof jacket for heavier rains. The jacket lacks reflectivity so I added my own thin 3-M along most vertical seams. YMMV
Mens http://www.backcountry.com/store/MAR0517/Marmot-ATV-Jacket-Mens.html?id=Fb24U989
Women's http://www.backcountry.com/store/MAR0518/Marmot-ATV-Jacket-Womens.html?id=Fb24U989
My jacket looks like this and is a 2006. Approxomate mileage 1800. http://akamai.backcountrystore.com.edgesuite.net/images/items/medium/MAR0518/ATVMAR.jpg
Jarery
The Marmot ATV jackets look sharp, i came >< that close to buying one. Not cycling specific but you'll be able to wear it everywhere off the bike too :)
VrKelley, hows yours doing after a years use?
vrkelley
Marmot Changed the materials in the Marmot ATV Jacket
I stand corrected, the jacket stated in my previous post changed drastically.
My Jacket has the Scholler extreme and Coolmax. Who knows what that other stuff is.
The Scholler extreme is tough though. I crashed last week on some wet leaves. Even though my elbow was scraped and bleeding, the jacket didn't rip. The PI ThermaFleece tights fared well also.
dekindy
I bought a Louis Garneau Gloucester jacket. I wore it on a sunny 40 degree day with a DeFeet UnDshirt and a turtleneck. I was very warm and overdressed for most of the ride but unzipping the front of the jacket gave me enough ventilation to keep me cool and dry. Although there are no vents, I could feel air moving through the matierial on the back of the jacket. I am glad the jacket is heavy so it did not puff up when unzipped.
I might have been able to get by without the turtleneck, but was glad I had it on when I stopped at the end of the ride and cooled off while talking to some riders I met. I rode to the ride so no warm car for the ride home. Next time I don't think I will stand around talking when I commute.
I agonized over jackets for two months before pulling the trigger on the LG. After a couple of rides I am still not sure about the lack of pit zips and open back vents because I was overdressed both times. I am new at this and still definitely learning. Overall I think I will like the LG when I get more skilled at dressing properly. Seems high quality for $99 retail.
vrkelley
[QUOTE=dekindy
I agonized over jackets for two months before pulling the trigger on the LG. [/QUOTE]
+1 The stuff isn't returnable so it's worth checking around.
wogamax
40 degrees is not the application in this case. Its an average temp of more like 15-25. The Marmot ATV not only changed, but according to what was said, it would require another outer layer even if it were Schoeller. I'm going to call BeyondFleece and see about Cold Fusion and Cold Play (WB-400 vs Dryskin Extreme). I need an outer for the real cold stuff, and I say that loosely knowing what some of you experience. Otherwise, I'd stick with pit zipped windstopper.
vrkelley
With the zips...as the weather warms up, you can wear that same jacket with less layers and the zips open.
But some zips take on water. I don't have any zips and do not know how to visually tell the difference between the leakers and the good ones.
wogamax
Zips are no good on a bike, IMO, if you can't open and close them while riding. You can tell the new waterproof ones by the hard time they give you. All because those who practically swim in these garmets have put up a fuss about a little water getting through :mad: (c'mon, were talking about the arm pit).
BeyondFleece offers water proof and easier to open non-waterproof pit zips, which I will order if I go that way. The have a jacket called the Vayu Plus. It is Schoeller WB-400 in the front (Cold Fusion) and Dryskin Extreme (Cold Play) in the back. They practically tailor their stuff. Check out this entry page:
http://www.beyondfleece.com/customize/vayu_plus_jacket/measurements_and_build/?pageresponse=You%20have%20successfully%20customized%20a%20Vayu%20Plus%20Jacket%2E
So, the cut can approach that of a true cycling (er, racing) jacket (longer sleeves and and torso, with form/tech fit). I have asked, for kicks, if they will cut the back longer than the front. With a little reflective material and the optional back pocket, I think this would be a hot item for the masses who do bike workouts at night, in the winter :D .
Jarery
I figured you'd like beyond fleece. Its like custom ordering a bike. My problem is i want so many options it becomes outta my budget for another jacket i dont really need :)
The wd400 on the front and dryskin on the back sounds interesting. If you do go that way, be sure to give us a review of it.
kpfeif
Buy a can of spray paint and spray it into the interior of the jacket. Seal it off around your mouth and inhale deeply. If you feel an intense but short-lived high you should buy it.
Severian
This is a wonderful case where an air-compressor would work very well... zip up the jacket and seal as much of it as you can (ie, zip-tie the cuffs closed) inflate the jacket with the air-compressor and feel around it to see how much air it passes. Wetting it down with a spray bottle of water would also change the wind-resistance of the jacket (or pants) nicely.
Jarery
This is a wonderful case where an air-compressor would work very well... zip up the jacket and seal as much of it as you can (ie, zip-tie the cuffs closed) inflate the jacket with the air-compressor and feel around it to see how much air it passes. Wetting it down with a spray bottle of water would also change the wind-resistance of the jacket (or pants) nicely.
If you dont mind forking over the 5 grand the store will make you pay for messing up their merchandise, go for it :eek:
This is where i would research materials, which have had the tests done in a lab to find which ones breath better. Then find a jacket made of the material you chose.
The difficulty, is that so many companies buy a material, and give it some new high tech souding name. Now you have no idea what it is and have to resort to the above methods, myself i just dont buy expensive jackets if i cant find out what its made of.
wogamax
"BeyondFleece offers water proof and easier to open non-waterproof pit zips, which I will order if I go that way. "
Update. I went that way. A Cold Fusion shipped yesterday. Stay tuned for a review. They have a Vayu Plus, with a back of Schoeller Dryskin Extreme (front WB-400) that I didn't end up going with because I worried having the entire back that way would be cold when it gets to ~10F. Dryskin lets considerably more air through. Most "cycling" cloths that combine two fabrics considerably limit the use of the one that breaths more in back. I Ebay'd a Descente Shelter for cheap since my last post and its rear panel is roughly a 10 inches square. Its awesome down almost all the way to 20F, especially if you're working out. With WB-400 all around, I'm hoping for colder 3+ hour sessions, using pit zips if I have to.
So far, it seems we've only had 3, or 4, days below 20F in the mornings in the northeast, but that is gonna change tomorrow. Rained probably the last 4, of 7, days. Now, its finally going to the single digits.
vrkelley
Woqamax how about an update on that Cold Fusion?
wogamax
I know its late, but for the sake of the archieve:
Beyond (used to be Beyond Fleece) Cold Fusion Review:
http://beyondclothing.com/customize/cold-fusion-x-jacket/
Purpose:
FULL heart rate range (110-180bpm) cycling activity at temperatures from 15F degrees down to zero and below. This includes tooling along between sprints (that can't be done indoors) and hill repeats.
The Cold Fusion is a Schoeller WB400 jacket. The whole garmet is this material. Beyond, at first, recomended their Vayu as a cycling jacket. The Vayu features a multi-material construction of WB40 entirely in the front and Schoeller's Dryskin Extreme entirely in the back. (Sorry, if I repeat myself. Its been a while since I visited this thread.) I did not go for the Vayu for two reasons. The back, or venting material, covers too large an area. Most multimaterial cycling jackets vent under the arms, or across a small band in the back. The second reason was Dryskin Extreme is notably more breathable than WB400. In fairness, it is notably LESS breathable than the venting material commonly found in bike jackets (including Assos). You can blow right through that stuff. The problem, here, is I didn't want ANY air oozing IN as it feels like it does when the temps get most severe (single digits, or lower).
The jacket is custom cut. I'll get into fit latter, but forgetting what was optional and what was standard, I can say pit zips were retained and a couple pockets were added. At the time, they actually let me choose the easier to open zippers, as well. The pit zips open all the way to the forearm and suprised me in that they open further around my back, but not out of reach. This was a good thing, as opening the front gets better airflow going through. Some folks on this forum claim WB40 works well enough that pit zips are not needed. I think that may be true, but only for a very narrow range of exertion. Shoeller's WB400 breathes incrementally better than straight Goretex. It is no miracle moisture transfer material, IMO. It has an exterior texture that resembles neoprene . It features a poly like pile on the inside that gives it some loft, which may leave the impression moisture is going through, but my guess is only marginally more gets out, if any. That's why I was very thankful for the pit zips, even down to zero degrees. For those disenchanted by membrane based outer wear, I am not sure you would find WB400 a dramatically better solution. Where it also excels, like Goretex, is in wind protection and that's important when you coast down a hill at 25mph when its 0-10F out. That's where all the other bike manufacturer jackets fall short. Its simply too cold for a jacket to breath anything in without rapid discomfort. Of course, there are only so many idiots who would go out in this weather and that is probably why they also don't care. All the more reason for this thread. Right?
The Custom Fit:
A few things. They can cut the sleeves long and did so. They can do an athletic cut that leaves the front down to your belt buckle, with the back dropping a little further over your butt. I told them that if they felt they were making a jacket for a body shaped like E.T., they may not be far off. I didn't want any bunching in the front and that was kept to a minimum. Where I was tempted to complain, but did not, was in giving a collar measurement of 16 inches and getting 22. The test was if air was coming in and I found it wasn't. Also, the jacket overlapped my waist without stretching by about 2 inches and I said I would have prefered to have to stretch it to get it zipped. Minor complaints. Cycling cut jackets are different and Beyond gets high marks for going most of the way, IMO.
Cycling training in winter is a mix of base miles and highly anaerobic activity, like short sprints. Its tough when its cold because your ligaments seize up, not to mention what happens to your extremities. On a side bar, I found that proper bike training is not to go too hard too early in your season, which means keeping your heart rate deliberately low and focusing only on strength for the hard stuff. The strength stuff (low cadence hills/sprints) can't be done for long, or your heart rate goes up. It makes for a really challenging balance when it comes to staying warm and dry. Since doing these things inside is impossible, the only choices for the serious cyclist are to find some good clothes, or move someplace warmer to train.
I would get the jacket again because it does exactly what I want it to. I usually wear one long sleeve poly base layer underneath. It comes off when the thermometer gets above 25 degrees and starts to feel like a wet suit at the freezing mark.
Blue Jays
I've always received fantastic performance from Assos and Pearl Izumi (notably the Barrier Jacket) garments for cold-weather riding. If you want to get some real bellylaughs on the topic, look at some of the peculiar cotton lunacy (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=291386) at this other ongoing BikeForums.net thread. Priceless!
jonnysays420
haha, nuttin but poosies!
JeffS
haha, nuttin but poosies!
You're intent on coming off like an ******* on this one aren't you.
Are you jealous that some people have money to spend, or do you really believe that your jeans are the best solution?
jonnysays420
I am just a frugal person! Like I said before, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
jonnysays420
IDGAF what anyone else says... I have been going like this for years and it works for me, use whatever you freakin want. But DONT try to tell me that what I'm saying is crap, no one really NEEDS flashy clothes either, so let's drop it cuz arguing on the internet is like winning the special olympics....