Classic & Vintage - Shogun Questions

Does anyone have any information on which Japanese framemaker made these bikes in the 1980s? I am fairly certain that they were imported and sold by an American company based in Seattle. I also think they were made to that company's designs and specs, (as was the case with brands like Centurion, Lotus, Nishiki etc...). I just can find any information on who made them. They seemed to have used primarily Tange tubing so I do not believe they were one of the many brands made by Miyata. Any information or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

For pictures of my vintage Shogun go to the following link.

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc205-chrisjoyce1206.html

I've got a very similar Shogun Custom sport... I believe it's almost the same bike. Tange 900 tubing. 23" frame, shimano side-calipers(qr only on front caliper), araya 27" wheels alloy rims, joytech hubs, tange headset, shimano stem shifters, derailleurs and freewheel. I'll post a pic later. I just bought it off of someone who didn't ride if very much. I had to overhaul the hubs and cones in both wheels but other than that, it was in very good shape. My colour is a greenish turqoise colour. Sorry but I don't know much about origin of these.

I've seen a few around. I think they were a division of another larger manufacturer. Maybe Panasonic? They seem to share some characteristics.

Sounds like a nice a bike Junior. I have always enjoyed mine. A very comfortable bike. I look foward to seeing your pictures.

Seely. Originally I thought so as well. For some reason Bridgestone's name kept coming up. But based upon posts on this forum, as well as the IBOB Site, I believe Shogun was its own brand, designed and sold by an American importer but built in Japan. Much like Centurion. You actually see a fair amount of them in this part of the Northeast.

Same, we are technically Northeast as well, and see quite a few Shoguns. When I worked in IL and TX I never once saw one, but since being in MI I have probably seen a dozen. They seem to be a bit more widespread than other "regional" brands I have seen though--quite a few on eBay it seems. I think my money is still on them being a Panasonic-produced product.

Hi,

Shoguns were not that popular in SoCal but you would see some periodically. I really didn't know much about the company when I bought a Shogun Kaze in the mid-1980s. It was sold a s"cheap" funny bike (TT bike) that had a 24" front wheel. It came with Shimano 600 components.

I bought one fairly cheap and stripped the components off of it and put them on another frame which I sold. I then put a mixture of Italian (Gipppieme) and Japanese (Sun Tour) parts. I still have the bike and raced on it a recently as 3 years ago. Right now it's in a slight state of dis-repair but I've been thinking of putting it back together and selling it.

Don't have any photos of it right now. :(

Here's my Custom Sport as promised.
Just to add... the cranks are Sugino.

Nice Bike. I find mine to be a very comfortable ride. I am sure you will as well since it appears the frames are very similar.

To bad about the photos Cleave. I saw one of those for sale on EBAY recently. Do not recall how much it went for but I remember the small front wheel caught my eye. Definitely one of the more unusually bikes I have seen. I'm not even sure I could ride it without breaking my back.

joychri, Did you change the stem shifters to downtube or was yours always downtube?

Junior, I upgraded to downtube in the early 1990's. At that time I also upgraded the rear derailleur, brake handles and added Index Shifting. Other than that the bike is original.

Oops... should have read more carefully where you stated you switched to DT shifters. By the way, what is your crank. Mine is an old Sugino but doesn't have the hex screws on the face so I would need to swap out the whole crank and chainwheel set(not that I will since they are still in v.good condition).

Sakae.

My first "real" bike was a Shogun. I bought it at a bike shop in Redwood City, Ca..if I remember correctly. I put a lot of miles on the bike and rode with friends who had Treks and DeRosas who were always impressed with the bike. I really loved that bike and if my ex-wife hadn't sold it at a garage sale in 1987 during our divorce, I'd own it still. That really p'd me off.

I don't remember the components, except they were Shimano, but it did have DT shifters.

Do you recall the model name jwc? How much did you pay for it back in the day and when did you purchase it?

[QUOTE=joychri]

For pictures of my vintage Shogun go to the following link.



Sorry I cant help with who the real manufacturer was, except to say you have a very beautiful bike. I love that black paint. The whole bike is just sexy as hell IMO. :D

Thanks. I tend to baby my bikes and that one even more than the others due to its sentimental value. Last year (as one of my winter projects) I stripped it down to the frame for the first time in years and cleaned, polished and touched up every each of it. Its amazing what a little soap and water can do. :)

Thanks. I tend to baby my bikes and that one even more than the others due to its sentimental value. Last year (as one of my winter projects) I stripped it down to the frame for the first time in years and cleaned, polished and touched up every each of it. Its amazing what a little soap and water can do. :)


Have you repacked the BB and hubs? On my bike, I'm quite sure all of these parts have never been repacked with grease, but still roll quite smoothly. I'm still tempted to see how much more nicely they might roll with some new lube, however, my "if it isn't broken, don't fix-up" sensibility makes me think twice about doing all of the work...
[it should be noted that this thing was safely stored indoors by an owner that clearly rode it little - it even had the original tires included, which I wouldn't have trusted, but held air just fine - kind of in "suspended animation"...]

On the "show-off your old Shogun" theme, here's my Shogun 500:

theme:http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Bike%20Stuff/Shogun_500.jpg

Do you recall the model name jwc? How much did you pay for it back in the day and when did you purchase it?

For it to have been a favorite bike, you'd think I would remember where and when I got it. I was working on the peninsula, Scherba's Auto Stores...that would put it about 1979. I do remember (funny I remember the dollar amount) $179.95 on clearance. I don't know what that works out to in today's dollars. I remember the components because when I started riding with friends at California Pedaler, they gave it a once over and commented that it was a better bike than they originally thought. As a matter of fact, the fact it had Shimano was about the only thing that impressed them.

I didn't care though. I rode that bike with no problems, just light maintenance and adjustments. I went on dates with it and rode it to work when I didn't own a car. When I rode with them, they didn't cut me any slack. I stayed with them and rode my turn on point.

I suppose it would be too much to ask that my ex found someone who would give it a good home. Man, that still pisses me off.

Just to put those times in perspective, Cannondale was sold at the Pedaler as their entry level line. I think the highest priced built frame was 270-something.

P.S.
It was blue. About the same color as my Trek 400.

that would put it about 1979. I do remember (funny I remember the dollar amount) $179.95 on clearance. I don't know what that works out to in today's dollars.


I found a reference for conversion of dollars to current value. Conversion factor is 0.372 current dollars to 1 dollar from 1979. So...

$180 = ~$480 today

If people were willing to dump the brifters for barend or downtube shifters, companies could make a quality bike for that money today. In the under $500 road bike sector, this is about what you can get:

http://www.ibexbikes.com/Bikes/CLS-3300-Details.html

It has lower range components than what you got on your bike back in the day. You probably got mid-range components for the time period vs bottom-end on the IBEX today. I don't know how low-end today compares with mid-range from the late 70s in terms of quality though. They claim 22.4 lbs, which if true, isn't bad for a $400 bike. Again, you compromise with low-end components and downtube shifters (I like the DT shifters on my Shogun just fine though...)

Great Bike TrackSmart. Does it have a Tange 900 or Tange Champion frame? Funny I have seen the 500 use both depending upon the year. I was always curious, especially in regard to those years, in which both the Shogun 300 and 500, as well as the 400 and 600 models for that matter, used Tange 900 what the differences between the models were. Were there simply better components as you went up or were the frames different in some way? I know the 500 definitely came with better components than my 300 originally and had additional brazeons for racks and water bottles. Other than that I think they were very similar. I guess these questions are why I started this thread in the first place.
Once again great bike if you have additional pictures I am sure we would all like to see them.

Here's what I know about the bike:

The Shogun 500 I have is almost certaily from the early 1980s based on the full Shimano Deore triple touring drivetrain (downtube shifters, front derailleur and rear derailleur).


Deore - Originally an early '80's touring group, designed so that almost all adjustments could be made with a single 6 mm Allen wrench. Evolved into Deore XT MTB group, DX and LX spun off later.
(From Sheldon Brown's Website)

The Bike is made of Tange Champion #5 tubing, which I've recently found out is straight-gauge chromoly tubing with an estimated weight of 5.5 lbs for a built frameset. So solid stuff, but definitely not lightweight or high-end. But maybe the heavier gauge tubing was meant to match the touring geometry and rack/fender brazeons? Or just to put it at a lower price-point?


Tange #5 tubesets used 0.9 mm main tubes, 0.8mm seat & chain stays and 1.0mm fork blades, Advertised weight was 2460g (5.5 lbs) for a built frameset. Hopefully this is enough to allow comparison with Tange 1-4.

It's got Shimano Tourney AID cranks and Tourney long or medium reach brake calipers. The wheels are 27", have 36 spokes, and use the wider 1.25" tire size.

Everything attached to the bike was Japanese-made, almost entirely Shimano. I have changed the original handlebars for a wider set (originals were only 39cm) and put a longer stem on the bike (original was a shockingly short 60 mm). Everything else is stock and runs smoothly.

Detail photos of the Shogun 500:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Misc/Shogun6-LuggedFrame.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Misc/IMG_0092-DeoreTouringShifters.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Misc/3-TangeNo5.jpg


From the 1982 Shimano Catalog on Sheldon Brown's Site:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/shimano1982/images/26.jpg

FWIW, the Shogun 400 out in the barn is Tange Champion #2 and came with whatever Shimano group was a notch below 600 in the just-before-index '80s.
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FWIW, the Shogun 400 out in the barn is Tange Champion #2 and came with whatever Shimano group was a notch below 600 in the just-before-index '80s.
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Sounds like the Shogun 400 was leaning a little more toward "sport" while the Shogun 500 was leaning a little more towards "tourer", with both falling into the "sport-tourer" category in general.

Would anyone know if Tange 900 Double Butted is lighter than Tange Champion 5? I assume it is but does it make it a higher end frame? Is the straight gauge really that much stronger than double-butted? I believe that my Shogun Custom Sport is equivalent to the 200 model as the cranks are the Suginos with chain rings directedly riveted on so no bolts to change individual chainrings. But that's just a guess.

Would anyone know if Tange 900 Double Butted is lighter than Tange Champion 5? I assume it is but does it make it a higher end frame? Is the straight gauge really that much stronger than double-butted? I believe that my Shogun Custom Sport is equivalent to the 200 model as the cranks are the Suginos with chain rings directedly riveted on so no bolts to change individual chainrings. But that's just a guess.


What I found with a quick search:


Tange 900 was double CrMo tubeset with wall thickness and weights that were comparable to Tange #2. However, it is seamed tubing, which was less expensive to produce.

So it should be significantly lighter than Tange Champion 5, since it is double-butted.

As for strength, I'm sure it's sturdy enough for whatever you have planned for it. The main reason for butted-tubing is to save weight by removing part of the diameter in areas that are under less stress. In theory, a butted tube set should not be significantly weaker than a straight-gauge one, assuming they didn't go too crazy on the weight shaving. If it's similar to Champion #2, you have don't have to fear that frame every breaking on you under normal conditions...

Thanks for that quick response. I wonder why the build the 500 with a heavier tubing then? I would have thought a higher end bike warrants a lighter tubing. Am I correct to assume the champion #5 is a higher-end seamless tubing that is heavier than a lower end double-butted seamed tubing? Seems almost counterintuitive.

Thanks for that quick response. I wonder why the build the 500 with a heavier tubing then? I would have thought a higher end bike warrants a lighter tubing. Am I correct to assume the champion #5 is a higher-end seamless tubing that is heavier than a lower end double-butted seamed tubing? Seems almost counterintuitive.


Funny, but I think you are thinking too hierarchically - these bikes may not be in the same product class. One might be an entry-level "sporty" bike with touring geometry. The other an entry-level touring-oriented bike. These two bikes were potentially built for different audiences. Maybe Shogun decided on the straight-gauge tubing to complement the Deore touring gear b/c the "average joe" desiring a touring-oriented bike would think that the straight-gauge frame was "more robust" for touring. Hence, it might be marketing driven - even though butting, when done right, only removes material where it's less needed for strength. Also, using #5 would have alllowed them to advertise it as a "Tange Champion" frame, but at the lowest cost b/c they used the heavier version of the tubing...

Another alternative is that these bikes were made to order for different bikestore chains and they chose different specs for their line-ups. Who knows! In either case, enjoy your nice double-butted Chromoly frame!

Slightly off-topic, but a couple of years ago I bought a Shogun three-speed at a local flea market. It was basically a Raleigh Sports clone, but with Japanese components. The seller told me that it was NOS -- he'd acquired it in the box. Judging by the condition of the bike, he might even have been telling the truth. I rode it as a commuter bike for a while. It was perfect. Big enough for me, at 6'2", which is rare among three-speeds. It was a fine bicycle. Unfortunately, it was stolen from outside the Brooklyn Inn on Hoyt Street in Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, one winter day. I would love to have that bike back.

There is actually a Shogun 500 currently listed on EBAY which has a Tange 900 frame. So I guess it changed from year to year. To bad its to small or I might be interested.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120063681854&rd=1&rd=1

There is actually a Shogun 500 currently listed on EBAY which has a Tange 900 frame. So I guess it changed from year to year. To bad its to small or I might be interested.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120063681854&rd=1&rd=1


Wow, the reserve is set at $350. It's obvious that this is merely a FRAME from a Shogun 500 that was converted to a cyclocross bike with cantilever brakes. These frames are extremely versatile due to the horizontal dropouts and tons of tire clearance. You can make them fixed-gears, cyclocross, or touring bikes with full rack and fenders.

How easy is it to convert to canitlevers? Are sidepulls too weak for touring or are the canti's just a comfort-zone upgrade? I think the price is high due to the newer high-grade Shimano parts and newer wheels.

How easy is it to convert to canitlevers? Are sidepulls too weak for touring or are the canti's just a comfort-zone upgrade? I think the price is high due to the newer high-grade Shimano parts and newer wheels.


There is no reason to convert to cantilever brakes for road use. You would need to change your brake levers, in addition to the brake calipers, to accomodate them because standard road levers are designed to work with less cable pull. [EDIT: You would not need to change the levers for cantilever brakes. I was thinking of V-brakes]

If you find your braking performance to be poor, I would first change the pads. KoolStop salmon are highly recommended by others on this board: http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/article.asp?UAN=999&SP=&v=1

If that is not satisfactory, then you could upgrade to some modern dual-pivot calipers. Be sure to get something that will still allow good fender clearance if you plan on touring.

However, if your current brakes do the job, I'd leave them alone. If you can lock up the wheels, then you already have "maximum braking force". Tire traction is your limiting factor at that point.

Dual pivot vs Single Pivot threads:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=95148
http://www.serotta.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4056

I didn't notice the $350.00 reserve. Even with the new parts I will be surprised if he gets that. I haven't seen Shoguns go for very much on EBAY.

sold for like $405, wow.

There is no reason to convert to cantilever brakes for road use. You would need to change your brake levers, in addition to the brake calipers, to accomodate them because standard road levers are designed to work with less cable pull.


Ah, no.
While V-brakes would require different levers (or Travel Agents), standard cantis use the same levers and cable pull as any caliper road brake.
I can't disagree with the rest of your post.
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Ah, no.
While V-brakes would require different levers (or Travel Agents), standard cantis use the same levers and cable pull as any caliper road brake.
I can't disagree with the rest of your post.
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I stand corrected. I was thinking of mountain-style V-brakes.

Thanks... I sort of doubted you need canti's. I have no problem locking up the wheels. I guess it would depend on how much you take with you and how much you weigh.

$405? Boy was I wrong. Maybe Shogun will become the new Paramount?:D

Hope Hope Pray Pray:rolleyes:

I read through the thread. I bought a Shogun 400 for my wife new back in 1987. It has Tange 900 double butted tubing and Tange forks. It's all Shimano (no model line markings at all though), except for the Sakae SA cranks SA seat post and Suntour down tube shifters (???). She still rides it, and the oldest LBS in town's owner said it was a very nice old bike. I changed out the original drop bars for her. 18 & 1/2 inch frame (she's rather petite)...

I read through the thread. I bought a Shogun 400 for my wife new back in 1987. It has Tange 900 double butted tubing and Tange forks. It's all Shimano (no model line markings at all though), except for the Sakae SA cranks SA seat post and Suntour down tube shifters (???). She still rides it, and the oldest LBS in town's owner said it was a very nice old bike. I changed out the original drop bars for her. 18 & 1/2 inch frame (she's rather petite)...


Great to hear that the bike is still in use. I bought my Shogon 500 second-hand. Based on the components, it's almost certainly early 1980's. Everything that was originally on it was Japanese - all shimano components, too (full Deore touring drivetrain, aside from a tourney crank). Looks like my old photo links are dead, but here's the old-girl again:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a350/TrackSmart/Bike%20Stuff/Shogun_500.jpg

I made a few minor changes for fitment. She sports wider handlebars, longer stem, and a new seat and serves as my only road bike. Everything else is stock and runs great. While not ultra-light racers, they were nicely made bikes with solid components. I had planned to make this a 'starter bike', but I quickly became attached. Does everything I need in comfort and old-school style.

I see you have a triple chainring set. My wife's is only double 52-42. I think her rear cogs are 14-31. (6 speed).

I see you have a triple chainring set. My wife's is only double 52-42. I think her rear cogs are 14-31. (6 speed).


Yeah. For $70 on craigslist (or was it $50?), it was a bargain. Not a speck of rust on the bike and the gears were hardly worn. It made my much, much newer Trek mountain bike seem badly worn by comparison.

And a TRIPLE! I live in a VERY hilly area and that granny gear is a wonderful thing. Front ring has a half-step with a granny gear: 46/42/28. The rear freewheel is a 6-speed with 13-30 gearing. That's some decently wide gearing and the combination of the 28T granny gear and the 30T rear cog makes for a wonderfully low gear. The 46T x 13T top gear is quite reasonable, too, though racing types would call that fairly low.

As you can tell, I'm quite attached to the bike. Several times I've gone through the process of researching more modern bikes, but always end up realizing that the modern beast won't have any more fun-value than the old Shogun. It might shave a couple of pounds, but that's not a major concern for a non-racer.

I see you have a triple chainring set. My wife's is only double 52-42. I think her rear cogs are 14-31. (6 speed).



Oh yeah. The only downside to the triple crankset is that its the only 'bottom rung' part on the bike (everything else being Deore). It's a thick steel Shimano Tourney triple. Bulletproof. Thick, hardwearing steel. But heavy compared to something a little higher on the food chain. A 'boat anchor', if you will.

Yeah. For $70 on craigslist (or was it $50?), it was a bargain. Not a speck of rust on the bike and the gears were hardly worn. It made my much, much newer Trek mountain bike seem badly worn by comparison.

And a TRIPLE! I live in a VERY hilly area and that granny gear is a wonderful thing. Front ring has a half-step with a granny gear: 46/42/28. The rear freewheel is a 6-speed with 13-30 gearing. That's some decently wide gearing and the combination of the 28T granny gear and the 30T rear cog makes for a wonderfully low gear. The 46T x 13T top gear is quite reasonable, too, though racing types would call that fairly low.

As you can tell, I'm quite attached to the bike. Several times I've gone through the process of researching more modern bikes, but always end up realizing that the modern beast won't have any more fun-value than the old Shogun. It might shave a couple of pounds, but that's not a major concern for a non-racer.

Daaaaaam I paid over $350 for hers, but i did get it new... Have you ever considered getting a Sakae or Sugino or even a TA triple in alloy???

I am still searching for info on this one. No telling when it was made(for me anyway) Some of you guys may know more. It's an Alpine GT with canti's, Tange Infinity tubing and a triple front. The original wheels I believe are gone, as it had a steel hub 700 rear, and an old Schwinn looking Araya 27" on front. It's being converted to 24 speed slowly but surely, thanks to a Cannondale 400 Adventure donor bike. I can't wait for that first ride!,,,,BD

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n267/Kustombyker/ShogunGT.jpg

I am still searching for info on this one. No telling when it was made(for me anyway) Some of you guys may know more. It's an Alpine GT with canti's, Tange Infinity tubing and a triple front. The original wheels I believe are gone, as it had a steel hub 700 rear, and an old Schwinn looking Araya 27" on front. It's being converted to 24 speed slowly but surely, thanks to a Cannondale 400 Adventure donor bike. I can't wait for that first ride!,,,,BD

http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n267/Kustombyker/ShogunGT.jpg



Looks like she'll make a nice ride when you're finished fixing her. I don't know the vintage, but the parts on the bike will tell you (i.e. the derailleurs, cranks, etc) the approximate age. They may also have a factory serial numbers that would tell you the date they were made. I don't expect it was a top-of-the-heap bike, but probably a decently made mid-level bike from the 1980s. [EDIT: You didn't specify the components on the bike, but the Tange Infinity tubing is sign that this was a quality bike back in it's day.]

Quick search found this about the bike and tubing:

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=257784
http://www.cyclingforums.com/showthread.php?t=128477