sam83
12-10-06, 07:03 PM
Edit: You are going straight and an oncoming car is turning left.
If a car violates your ROW, what do you think?
If a car violates your ROW, what do you think?
View Full Version : Are Left Turn Collisions Unavoidable?
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kill.cactus
12-10-06, 08:23 PM
I have one of these on my bike; cagers generally don't forget my ROW.
But more seriously, I think that under most circumstances, if you are paying attention you can take action and protect yourself if a car continues through during your left turn. It is always dangerous, however.
But more seriously, I think that under most circumstances, if you are paying attention you can take action and protect yourself if a car continues through during your left turn. It is always dangerous, however.
rajman
12-10-06, 09:47 PM
Tough call at night - you are going through a green light with a car signalling left. If there is a car going your way through the intersection at the time, and you are to the right of the car going your way, no problem. If you are alone - I try and wave to the left turner to see if he/she waves back - if not - I might not go through. Depending on the street, you can angle to go to the left of the left turning car, avoiding the problem.
One of the trickiest night time situations IMHO.
One of the trickiest night time situations IMHO.
genec
12-10-06, 10:33 PM
Its a tough situation, but you can change your timing to arrive after the motorist has turned. That is probably your best defence if you cannot verify that they have otherwise seen you.
Bekologist
12-10-06, 11:56 PM
No, some left hooks are not unavoidable. but there are several ways to maximize safety. Robert Hurst in his Urban Cycling book had a very good treatment on it.
I use a coupple of techniques like my timing thru when there are potential left hookers, also a very assertive "I'm going forward" pointing manuver with both hands off the hoods.
At night, and I know this may sound like a radical position to take, but when i'm approaching potential left hookers from oncoming traffic, I often times will AIM DIRECTLY FOR THE DRIVER.
Why? 1)I'm pointing my lights directly into the drivers' eyes, and 2) if the car begins to move into the intersection I am in a better position to slide by the passenger side of the car, or take advantage of 3) a better vector position off to the right back into safety. I'ts kind of tough to tell you what I mean but #3 it becomes clear once you try it.
This by no means is my tactic all the time, but I use this "AIM right at them" technique at a few of the 'trouble' intersections along my commute where there are unsignalled crossover left turns across an arterial. Works pretty well.
I use a coupple of techniques like my timing thru when there are potential left hookers, also a very assertive "I'm going forward" pointing manuver with both hands off the hoods.
At night, and I know this may sound like a radical position to take, but when i'm approaching potential left hookers from oncoming traffic, I often times will AIM DIRECTLY FOR THE DRIVER.
Why? 1)I'm pointing my lights directly into the drivers' eyes, and 2) if the car begins to move into the intersection I am in a better position to slide by the passenger side of the car, or take advantage of 3) a better vector position off to the right back into safety. I'ts kind of tough to tell you what I mean but #3 it becomes clear once you try it.
This by no means is my tactic all the time, but I use this "AIM right at them" technique at a few of the 'trouble' intersections along my commute where there are unsignalled crossover left turns across an arterial. Works pretty well.
recursive
12-11-06, 12:03 AM
I was hit by a left hook that I'm convinced couldn't have been avoided in any reasonable way. I didn't even have a stop sign.
genec
12-11-06, 07:34 AM
At night, and I know this may sound like a radical position to take, but when i'm approaching potential left hookers from oncoming traffic, I often times will AIM DIRECTLY FOR THE DRIVER.
Why? 1)I'm pointing my lights directly into the drivers' eyes, and 2) if the car begins to move into the intersection I am in a better position to slide by the passenger side of the car, or take advantage of 3) a better vector position off to the right back into safety. I'ts kind of tough to tell you what I mean but #3 it becomes clear once you try it.
Bek, I have not really tried this on the road... I do use a wagging headlight to try to alert motorists that may cross me. I simply jiggle the handlebars to make the headlight paint a wide area at the vehicle.
As far as your vector technique... I can almost see that working. It is something I do on sailboats all the time... aim right for a boat crossing you, cause it won't be there when you get there. The difference between boats and cars however is cars have brakes... so some driver can suddenly slam on the brakes as they become aware of you.
Why? 1)I'm pointing my lights directly into the drivers' eyes, and 2) if the car begins to move into the intersection I am in a better position to slide by the passenger side of the car, or take advantage of 3) a better vector position off to the right back into safety. I'ts kind of tough to tell you what I mean but #3 it becomes clear once you try it.
Bek, I have not really tried this on the road... I do use a wagging headlight to try to alert motorists that may cross me. I simply jiggle the handlebars to make the headlight paint a wide area at the vehicle.
As far as your vector technique... I can almost see that working. It is something I do on sailboats all the time... aim right for a boat crossing you, cause it won't be there when you get there. The difference between boats and cars however is cars have brakes... so some driver can suddenly slam on the brakes as they become aware of you.
San Rensho
12-11-06, 07:50 AM
No, some left hooks are not unavoidable. but there are several ways to maximize safety. Robert Hurst in his Urban Cycling book had a very good treatment on it.
I use a coupple of techniques like my timing thru when there are potential left hookers, also a very assertive "I'm going forward" pointing manuver with both hands off the hoods.
At night, and I know this may sound like a radical position to take, but when i'm approaching potential left hookers from oncoming traffic, I often times will AIM DIRECTLY FOR THE DRIVER.
Why? 1)I'm pointing my lights directly into the drivers' eyes, and 2) if the car begins to move into the intersection I am in a better position to slide by the passenger side of the car, or take advantage of 3) a better vector position off to the right back into safety. I'ts kind of tough to tell you what I mean but #3 it becomes clear once you try it.
This by no means is my tactic all the time, but I use this "AIM right at them" technique at a few of the 'trouble' intersections along my commute where there are unsignalled crossover left turns across an arterial. Works pretty well.
I think this is very good advice. Its the way I approach any intersection where someone is turning left or may turn left. Remember many people will turn suddenly without signalling. You have to be prepared for this situation.
This gives you the most options, cross in front of the car, turn left and avoid, or stop.
The only thing I would add is that if you are going to hit the car, DON'T lay the bike down. Jump up and back as high and as far as you can. I had to jump up in the air and back when an SUV hit me head on while I was riding a motorcycle and I got away with very minor injuries. Laying down the bike and going under the car is just not an option.
I use a coupple of techniques like my timing thru when there are potential left hookers, also a very assertive "I'm going forward" pointing manuver with both hands off the hoods.
At night, and I know this may sound like a radical position to take, but when i'm approaching potential left hookers from oncoming traffic, I often times will AIM DIRECTLY FOR THE DRIVER.
Why? 1)I'm pointing my lights directly into the drivers' eyes, and 2) if the car begins to move into the intersection I am in a better position to slide by the passenger side of the car, or take advantage of 3) a better vector position off to the right back into safety. I'ts kind of tough to tell you what I mean but #3 it becomes clear once you try it.
This by no means is my tactic all the time, but I use this "AIM right at them" technique at a few of the 'trouble' intersections along my commute where there are unsignalled crossover left turns across an arterial. Works pretty well.
I think this is very good advice. Its the way I approach any intersection where someone is turning left or may turn left. Remember many people will turn suddenly without signalling. You have to be prepared for this situation.
This gives you the most options, cross in front of the car, turn left and avoid, or stop.
The only thing I would add is that if you are going to hit the car, DON'T lay the bike down. Jump up and back as high and as far as you can. I had to jump up in the air and back when an SUV hit me head on while I was riding a motorcycle and I got away with very minor injuries. Laying down the bike and going under the car is just not an option.
galen_52657
12-11-06, 09:12 AM
Cageless vehicle operating 101:
Identify all hazards all the time and be prepared to take evasive action.
Identify all hazards all the time and be prepared to take evasive action.
vrkelley
12-11-06, 01:31 PM
* If it's 2 lanes and the light changes, I watch the wheels of the car what the guys is going to do.
* If it's 4 lanes of moving traffic, I sync up with the car on my left so the left hooker hits the car before self.
* If it's a curved road, I take the lane and hope for the best.
* If it's 4 lanes of moving traffic, I sync up with the car on my left so the left hooker hits the car before self.
* If it's a curved road, I take the lane and hope for the best.
alanfleisig
12-11-06, 03:00 PM
I make the same assumption I make now when driving (since no one seems to yield ROW consistently anymore). Assume the SOB is going to turn in front of me, and slow down and prepare to stop. Gee, I lose almost .05/mph average on a 50 mile ride this way, but get to ride tomorrow.
P.S.: New York State recently passed a new failure to yield ROW law; if a driver injures someone when failing to yield ROW, he/she gets an automatic license suspension. AAA thinks this was a product of an "overzealous" motorcycle lobby. Everyone should ping AAA and let them know what a problem failure to yield has become for both cyclists and drivers.
P.S.: New York State recently passed a new failure to yield ROW law; if a driver injures someone when failing to yield ROW, he/she gets an automatic license suspension. AAA thinks this was a product of an "overzealous" motorcycle lobby. Everyone should ping AAA and let them know what a problem failure to yield has become for both cyclists and drivers.
ghettocruiser
12-11-06, 03:13 PM
I think sometimes they might manage to get me no matter what I do. If we slow down because we think they don't see us and are about to cut in front of us, then it might look like we are just yielding the road to them. And someone in car is always going to do something beyond stupid at some point.
I think that ALMOST all can be avoided, some, granted, with great difficulty. But I'd never say never.
I think that ALMOST all can be avoided, some, granted, with great difficulty. But I'd never say never.
CommuterRun
12-11-06, 03:16 PM
P.S.: New York State recently passed a new failure to yield ROW law; if a driver injures someone when failing to yield ROW, he/she gets an automatic license suspension. AAA thinks this was a product of an "overzealous" motorcycle lobby. Everyone should ping AAA and let them know what a problem failure to yield has become for both cyclists and drivers.
That sounds like a great law to have on the books. Sounds like AAA might need to pull their head out and see that cars aren't the only thing on the road, and can benefit from this legislation.
One easy way to avoid getting left hooked is to take the lane at intersections. This gives the cyclist more room to maneuver either to the left, behind the car, or to the right, turning with the car, as the situation dictates.
That sounds like a great law to have on the books. Sounds like AAA might need to pull their head out and see that cars aren't the only thing on the road, and can benefit from this legislation.
One easy way to avoid getting left hooked is to take the lane at intersections. This gives the cyclist more room to maneuver either to the left, behind the car, or to the right, turning with the car, as the situation dictates.
genec
12-11-06, 03:47 PM
That sounds like a great law to have on the books. Sounds like AAA might need to pull their head out and see that cars aren't the only thing on the road, and can benefit from this legislation.
One easy way to avoid getting left hooked is to take the lane at intersections. This gives the cyclist more room to maneuver either to the left, behind the car, or to the right, turning with the car, as the situation dictates.
If I remember the story right, the AAA was one of the lobby groups that gave Forester such fits when he was fighting for the current cycling laws in CA...
One easy way to avoid getting left hooked is to take the lane at intersections. This gives the cyclist more room to maneuver either to the left, behind the car, or to the right, turning with the car, as the situation dictates.
If I remember the story right, the AAA was one of the lobby groups that gave Forester such fits when he was fighting for the current cycling laws in CA...
John E
12-11-06, 03:49 PM
... P.S.: New York State recently passed a new failure to yield ROW law; if a driver injures someone when failing to yield ROW, he/she gets an automatic license suspension. AAA thinks this was a product of an "overzealous" motorcycle lobby. Everyone should ping AAA and let them know what a problem failure to yield has become for both cyclists and drivers.
New York is right. AAA is wrong.
As a 31-year ACSC member, I'll try pinging AAA, but I find that the southern California branch operates pretty independently of the umbrella organization. Is there a New York state branch of AAA we should ping?
New York is right. AAA is wrong.
As a 31-year ACSC member, I'll try pinging AAA, but I find that the southern California branch operates pretty independently of the umbrella organization. Is there a New York state branch of AAA we should ping?
John E
12-11-06, 03:54 PM
I was hit by a left hook that I'm convinced couldn't have been avoided in any reasonable way. I didn't even have a stop sign. My one bicycling collision with a motor vehicle was a left hook into a private residential driveway. I suffered a double fracture of the left clavicle, a concussion, and facial lacerations, which led to the macho "dueling scar" over my left cheekbone. Today I have a much better helmet, somewhat better brakes, and a somewhat more visible (left-biased) riding position, more conspicuous clothing (e.g. my "screaming yellow" windbreaker), and possibly better knowledge of evasive maneuvers.
noisebeam
12-11-06, 03:58 PM
Of course there is no way to prevent a driver from turning left in front of any type of vehicle. Left hooks happen to trucks, cars, motorcycles and bicycles. Especially to motorcycles whos speed is often misjudged.
But one can minimize the likelyhood and be prepared for evasive action if a turn does start. (Nothing new here, all of this has been said already by others above.)
To minimize:
Make sure you are very visible: This includes high vis clothing, lane position, use of bright front headlight day and night
Make sure you appear fast, even if you are not: This can include high cadence (which I personally don't consider a significant factor, but some do), and unfortunately your 'look' which includes things like posture, clothing, rider position, eye contact or eye focus.
Make sure you don't look like you are hesitant, even if you are prepared to stop or are slowing.
Never assume any of the above will stop someone from turning.
Then there is evasive action. A quick turn left or right for example. Practice these. Or heading for rear of turning vehicle assuming it will complete turn and not stop suddenly.
edit: I found this Motorcycle Operator Guide (http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/MOM_Rev_1206_06.pdf), which in the 'Intersection' and the 'Increasing Conspicuity' chapters echos many of the same tips given by all in this thread. The whole guide is good reading even for pedalcyclists as many (but obviously not all) of the same techniques apply.
Al
Al
But one can minimize the likelyhood and be prepared for evasive action if a turn does start. (Nothing new here, all of this has been said already by others above.)
To minimize:
Make sure you are very visible: This includes high vis clothing, lane position, use of bright front headlight day and night
Make sure you appear fast, even if you are not: This can include high cadence (which I personally don't consider a significant factor, but some do), and unfortunately your 'look' which includes things like posture, clothing, rider position, eye contact or eye focus.
Make sure you don't look like you are hesitant, even if you are prepared to stop or are slowing.
Never assume any of the above will stop someone from turning.
Then there is evasive action. A quick turn left or right for example. Practice these. Or heading for rear of turning vehicle assuming it will complete turn and not stop suddenly.
edit: I found this Motorcycle Operator Guide (http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/MOM_Rev_1206_06.pdf), which in the 'Intersection' and the 'Increasing Conspicuity' chapters echos many of the same tips given by all in this thread. The whole guide is good reading even for pedalcyclists as many (but obviously not all) of the same techniques apply.
Al
Al
jwc
12-11-06, 04:29 PM
* If it's 2 lanes and the light changes, I watch the wheels of the car what the guys is going to do.
I use this technique when biking or driving. Then, they came out with those friggin' "spinner wheels". I really believe those things are dangerous to put on a car or truck.
I use this technique when biking or driving. Then, they came out with those friggin' "spinner wheels". I really believe those things are dangerous to put on a car or truck.
vrkelley
12-11-06, 08:50 PM
One easy way to avoid getting left hooked is to take the lane at intersections. This gives the cyclist more room to maneuver either to the left, behind the car, or to the right, turning with the car, as the situation dictates.
At the intersections they just try to squeeze by on either side anyway...
I use this technique when biking or driving. Then, they came out with those friggin' "spinner wheels". I really believe those things are dangerous to put on a car or truck.
Hmmm...How do they impede you?
At the intersections they just try to squeeze by on either side anyway...
I use this technique when biking or driving. Then, they came out with those friggin' "spinner wheels". I really believe those things are dangerous to put on a car or truck.
Hmmm...How do they impede you?
sbhikes
12-11-06, 10:08 PM
The potential left hook is where the "steely-eyed gaze" comes in handy. I use it liberally. But I assume they are all going to left hook me and I'm ready to take evasive action accordingly.
c_m_shooter
12-12-06, 12:04 AM
When you see a car waiting to turn left, the first thing to move is usually the driver's hand coming across the steering wheel. That fraction of a second can make the difference.
genec
12-12-06, 07:31 AM
When you see a car waiting to turn left, the first thing to move is usually the driver's hand coming across the steering wheel. That fraction of a second can make the difference.
It is just amazing the detail some of you can see inside a car... personally I find that at about 20MPH, closing on a vehicle, with a glared windshield, I have a tough time seeing the eyes, hands or any other details within the vehicle.
It is just amazing the detail some of you can see inside a car... personally I find that at about 20MPH, closing on a vehicle, with a glared windshield, I have a tough time seeing the eyes, hands or any other details within the vehicle.
rajman
12-12-06, 11:28 AM
I forgot to add - I often use 'the scream' to deal with left - turn creepers. It's more or less impossible to tell if a creep sees you and is waiting for you to pass, or if they are just creeping, waiting for a car/ped to clear the intersection. 'The Scream' seems to work better than a bell (or waving arms), and I figure if it saves my life just once, it's worth it...
Anybody else do this?
Anybody else do this?
vrkelley
12-12-06, 12:57 PM
It is just amazing the detail some of you can see inside a car... personally I find that at about 20MPH, closing on a vehicle, with a glared windshield, I have a tough time seeing the eyes, hands or any other details within the vehicle.
+1 esp at night.
Is it my imagination?? Does it seem like forum members are reporting more accidents than other years?? Can't figure out if it's because people are just fess'n up or whether it's due to more bikes on the road.
One thing's certain, the visibility bar has been raised and more cyclists (at least the commuters around here) have SOME sort of lighting, AND most seem to observe traffic laws. So there should actually be LESS accidents.
+1 esp at night.
Is it my imagination?? Does it seem like forum members are reporting more accidents than other years?? Can't figure out if it's because people are just fess'n up or whether it's due to more bikes on the road.
One thing's certain, the visibility bar has been raised and more cyclists (at least the commuters around here) have SOME sort of lighting, AND most seem to observe traffic laws. So there should actually be LESS accidents.
San Rensho
12-12-06, 01:10 PM
I forgot to add - I often use 'the scream' to deal with left - turn creepers. It's more or less impossible to tell if a creep sees you and is waiting for you to pass, or if they are just creeping, waiting for a car/ped to clear the intersection. 'The Scream' seems to work better than a bell (or waving arms), and I figure if it saves my life just once, it's worth it...
Anybody else do this?
All the time. It works.
Anybody else do this?
All the time. It works.
sam83
12-12-06, 05:15 PM
It is just amazing the detail some of you can see inside a car... personally I find that at about 20MPH, closing on a vehicle, with a glared windshield, I have a tough time seeing the eyes, hands or any other details within the vehicle.
Ya, me too. Situations vary, but in general that's why when I see the combination of 1) an oncoming car that even looks like it could turn left and 2) a place for it to turn into, I'm probably not whizzing along like those threat were'nt there.
Ya, me too. Situations vary, but in general that's why when I see the combination of 1) an oncoming car that even looks like it could turn left and 2) a place for it to turn into, I'm probably not whizzing along like those threat were'nt there.
Platy
12-12-06, 09:43 PM
For oncoming left turners that seem questionable to me for any reason, I hold out my open palm to them in the traditional traffic-cop gesture for "Stop right there!". As I pass I change the gesture to a friendly wave.
I think the traffic-cop stop gesture wakes up left turners who are driving inattentively. It also clearly signals my intention and what I expect the motorist to do.
I think the traffic-cop stop gesture wakes up left turners who are driving inattentively. It also clearly signals my intention and what I expect the motorist to do.
JohnBrooking
12-13-06, 03:19 PM
One night I was going straight past a side street on my right and observed a young driver approaching the intersection from it with the kind of momentum that makes you wonder if they are going to stop at their stop sign. (I did not have one, being on the more major road.) She was also not looking in my direction at all; maybe she had glanced quickly from further away and didn't see any car headlights, although I had my bike headlights on. (I could see inside the car because we were near a streetlight.) I just yelled "Hey, hey, hey, hey...." and saw her turn her head and a surprised look cross her face! She stopped. Defensive driving works!
JohnBrooking
12-13-06, 03:20 PM
For oncoming left turners that seem questionable to me for any reason, I hold out my open palm to them in the traditional traffic-cop gesture for "Stop right there!". As I pass I change the gesture to a friendly wave.
+1. I do this too, and I think it does work. Also good for cars thinking about pulling out in front of you from a side street on the right.
If eye contact is possible, use it too. Even if not, look at the driver's side windshield anyway. If they see you, they'll know that you're intending your gesture for them!
+1. I do this too, and I think it does work. Also good for cars thinking about pulling out in front of you from a side street on the right.
If eye contact is possible, use it too. Even if not, look at the driver's side windshield anyway. If they see you, they'll know that you're intending your gesture for them!
noisebeam
12-13-06, 03:28 PM
Three comments
1. Be very careful of using hand signals. They could be misinterpeted by turning motorist thinking they are you signalling a turn or waving them thru. Those who do do this probably have a very clear, distinct and forceful way of signalling motorist to not turn which works for them.
2. Shouting... Perhaps works in more traditional urban settings with slower traffic and single lanes. Not a chance of working on 45mph multilane arterials.
3. Don't ever give up your right of way in these situations as a courtesy. Only if needed to prevent a dangerous situation. Do not train motorists that cyclist do this.
Al
1. Be very careful of using hand signals. They could be misinterpeted by turning motorist thinking they are you signalling a turn or waving them thru. Those who do do this probably have a very clear, distinct and forceful way of signalling motorist to not turn which works for them.
2. Shouting... Perhaps works in more traditional urban settings with slower traffic and single lanes. Not a chance of working on 45mph multilane arterials.
3. Don't ever give up your right of way in these situations as a courtesy. Only if needed to prevent a dangerous situation. Do not train motorists that cyclist do this.
Al
chephy
12-13-06, 03:30 PM
Edit: You are going straight and an oncoming car is turning left.
If a car violates your ROW, what do you think? As in any other traffic situation, it all depends. There are techniques to minimize the chances of getting hit. If there are cars going with you through the intersection - just used them as a shield. If there aren't, chances are there aren't that many cars from the other direction either, so it's easy to concentrate on (potential) left-turners and act in such a manner as to prevent a collision should the driver be a boneheaded moron. If it's night and you have a light on your helmet, aiming it at the driver probably helps.
Of course, there are some collisions that you cannot prevent. But being on the lookout increases your chances of making it home alive.
If a car violates your ROW, what do you think? As in any other traffic situation, it all depends. There are techniques to minimize the chances of getting hit. If there are cars going with you through the intersection - just used them as a shield. If there aren't, chances are there aren't that many cars from the other direction either, so it's easy to concentrate on (potential) left-turners and act in such a manner as to prevent a collision should the driver be a boneheaded moron. If it's night and you have a light on your helmet, aiming it at the driver probably helps.
Of course, there are some collisions that you cannot prevent. But being on the lookout increases your chances of making it home alive.
Platy
12-13-06, 11:19 PM
1. Be very careful of using hand signals. They could be misinterpeted by turning motorist thinking they are you signalling a turn or waving them thru...
Yes indeed.
Yes indeed.
Dr.Deltron
12-14-06, 12:30 AM
...I often use 'the scream' to deal with left - turn creepers. Anybody else do this?
Absolutely! Only my scream is done in a "siren" sound. That makes almost all motorists stop!
And when I'm driving, I assess whether the car turning left in front of me looks likely to be insured. If it does, I hope they turn left, 'cause I'll hit 'em!!! Twice so far! As Harry Callahan might say, "I don't hit anybody I don't mean to."
2 good ways in California to be the "payer" in an accident (collision) A) Rear-end somebody or B) Turn left!
But when cycling, my 25 lb. bike will LOSE against a 3000 lb car, so I do whatever it takes to avoid a collision. And the siren sound has proven to be very useful in those situations.:D
Absolutely! Only my scream is done in a "siren" sound. That makes almost all motorists stop!
And when I'm driving, I assess whether the car turning left in front of me looks likely to be insured. If it does, I hope they turn left, 'cause I'll hit 'em!!! Twice so far! As Harry Callahan might say, "I don't hit anybody I don't mean to."
2 good ways in California to be the "payer" in an accident (collision) A) Rear-end somebody or B) Turn left!
But when cycling, my 25 lb. bike will LOSE against a 3000 lb car, so I do whatever it takes to avoid a collision. And the siren sound has proven to be very useful in those situations.:D
Helmet Head
12-18-06, 05:53 PM
3. Don't ever give up your right of way in these situations as a courtesy. Only if needed to prevent a dangerous situation. Do not train motorists that cyclist do this.
:beer:
:beer:
genec
12-18-06, 06:01 PM
:beer:
True, and I very much agree... however, changing your speed to avoid the situation altogether is not the same as giving up ROW.
Now back to beer:
:beer:
True, and I very much agree... however, changing your speed to avoid the situation altogether is not the same as giving up ROW.
Now back to beer:
:beer:
Bekologist
12-18-06, 06:12 PM
I sometimes intentionally yield my right of way in this type of situation by moving further left.
noisebeam
12-18-06, 06:16 PM
I sometimes intentionally yield my right of way in this type of situation by moving further left.
I'm stuggling to visualize this with two starting scenarios
1. Left turner has already started turning, you move left to avoid the completion of their turn. You have not given up your ROW, it had already been taken.
2. Left turner has not started, you move left to encourage them to turn, which I can only see working if you move into oncoming lane.
What other scenario have I missed?
Al
I'm stuggling to visualize this with two starting scenarios
1. Left turner has already started turning, you move left to avoid the completion of their turn. You have not given up your ROW, it had already been taken.
2. Left turner has not started, you move left to encourage them to turn, which I can only see working if you move into oncoming lane.
What other scenario have I missed?
Al
Bekologist
12-18-06, 06:21 PM
...I'm just saying thats how i yield right of way sometimes. sorry you have a hard time visualizing things, Al.
I see a car up ahead preparing for an left turn, I move left, I signal an 'after you' curtsey, the cars move thru the intersection, and there you go.
I also control OTHER intersections by moving further left as well, and the technique of aiming right for the driver as i posted earlier on this thread.
I mentioned it because people like you may not have thought of the technique before, that you can yield right of way by moving further left.
I see a car up ahead preparing for an left turn, I move left, I signal an 'after you' curtsey, the cars move thru the intersection, and there you go.
I also control OTHER intersections by moving further left as well, and the technique of aiming right for the driver as i posted earlier on this thread.
I mentioned it because people like you may not have thought of the technique before, that you can yield right of way by moving further left.
noisebeam
12-18-06, 06:30 PM
why wouldn't moving left to let the car clear the intersection first NOT work, al?
Never said it wouldn't. I just don't understand the specifics of the relative positioning and paths of the two vehicles over time to understand what you mean. I could interpret your statement in a wide variety of ways, none of which sound like predictable to me. Why don't you explain such a scenario with time based position details, thanks.
Al
Never said it wouldn't. I just don't understand the specifics of the relative positioning and paths of the two vehicles over time to understand what you mean. I could interpret your statement in a wide variety of ways, none of which sound like predictable to me. Why don't you explain such a scenario with time based position details, thanks.
Al
noisebeam
12-18-06, 06:33 PM
...I'm just saying thats how i yield right of way sometimes. sorry you have a hard time visualizing things, Al.
I see a car up ahead preparing for an left turn, I move left, I signal an 'after you' curtsey, the cars move thru the intersection, and there you go.
...
I mentioned it because people like you may not have thought of the technique before, that you can yield right of way by moving further left.
Ummm... You are giving up your ROW by signalling, not thru lane positioning. I see the lane position more as putting yourself in a position to clear intersection quickest as soon as vehicle has started to turn. I'm glad most cyclists don't do this as I'd hate for motorists to expect this.
Al
I see a car up ahead preparing for an left turn, I move left, I signal an 'after you' curtsey, the cars move thru the intersection, and there you go.
...
I mentioned it because people like you may not have thought of the technique before, that you can yield right of way by moving further left.
Ummm... You are giving up your ROW by signalling, not thru lane positioning. I see the lane position more as putting yourself in a position to clear intersection quickest as soon as vehicle has started to turn. I'm glad most cyclists don't do this as I'd hate for motorists to expect this.
Al
Bekologist
12-18-06, 06:37 PM
actually, al, i sometimes do it without the hand signal. it's very situational, by no means is it a blanket technique that can be applied to general traffic dynamics. I know when and where it is appropriate.
But it prompts positive cager feedback on occasion when I do it so i know it works.
I'm just saying that you can yield right of way by moving further left sometimes.
But it prompts positive cager feedback on occasion when I do it so i know it works.
I'm just saying that you can yield right of way by moving further left sometimes.
Helmet Head
12-19-06, 12:07 PM
actually, al, i sometimes do it without the hand signal. it's very situational, by no means is it a blanket technique that can be applied to general traffic dynamics. I know when and where it is appropriate.
But it prompts positive cager feedback on occasion when I do it so i know it works.
I'm just saying that you can yield right of way by moving further left sometimes.
I can see how moving further left might be done in concert with yielding, but I don't see how the move itself can communicate yielding.
I suspect there are body language and other factors that actually communicate the yielding. Perhaps you back off on the pedaling a tad, maybe sit up, or feign that you're turning left (and, thus your paths are not in conflict), possibly making a "go ahead" gesture with your head or maybe even just your eyes, etc.. I can see how doing some of those things, as well as adjusting left, could coax an oncoming left-turner to proceed. But maintaining your pace to continue straight across the intersection, looking ahead the whole time, not backing off at all, and adjust left? No, I don't see how that alone could be construed as a yield - to the contrary.
But it prompts positive cager feedback on occasion when I do it so i know it works.
I'm just saying that you can yield right of way by moving further left sometimes.
I can see how moving further left might be done in concert with yielding, but I don't see how the move itself can communicate yielding.
I suspect there are body language and other factors that actually communicate the yielding. Perhaps you back off on the pedaling a tad, maybe sit up, or feign that you're turning left (and, thus your paths are not in conflict), possibly making a "go ahead" gesture with your head or maybe even just your eyes, etc.. I can see how doing some of those things, as well as adjusting left, could coax an oncoming left-turner to proceed. But maintaining your pace to continue straight across the intersection, looking ahead the whole time, not backing off at all, and adjust left? No, I don't see how that alone could be construed as a yield - to the contrary.
SSP
12-19-06, 01:23 PM
That scenario is one reason I always wear a headlamp, in addition to my bar mounted headlights. I usually run the headlamp in flashing mode, and will aim directly it at any drivers I think aren't noticing me.
Fortunately, where I live there are very few intersections that permit "unprotected" left turns (i.e., left turns are only permitted on the left arrow, and not permitted when the through traffic has a green signal).
Fortunately, where I live there are very few intersections that permit "unprotected" left turns (i.e., left turns are only permitted on the left arrow, and not permitted when the through traffic has a green signal).
Helmet Head
12-19-06, 03:05 PM
That scenario is one reason I always wear a headlamp, in addition to my bar mounted headlights. I usually run the headlamp in flashing mode, and will aim directly it at any drivers I think aren't noticing me.
Fortunately, where I live there are very few intersections that permit "unprotected" left turns (i.e., left turns are only permitted on the left arrow, and not permitted when the through traffic has a green signal).
That's at major intersections.
Most left hook bike-car crashes seem to happen at mid-block left turns into driveways or parking lot entrances where there are no controls whatsoever (and also where the left turn is often not expected by the cyclist).
Fortunately, where I live there are very few intersections that permit "unprotected" left turns (i.e., left turns are only permitted on the left arrow, and not permitted when the through traffic has a green signal).
That's at major intersections.
Most left hook bike-car crashes seem to happen at mid-block left turns into driveways or parking lot entrances where there are no controls whatsoever (and also where the left turn is often not expected by the cyclist).
SSP
12-19-06, 03:13 PM
That's at major intersections.
Most left hook bike-car crashes seem to happen at mid-block left turns into driveways or parking lot entrances where there are no controls whatsoever (and also where the left turn is often not expected by the cyclist).
That's a good point...for those situations, I depend on lane positioning, "assertive" posture, and eye contact.
And if all else fails, I can yell really loud while braking and quick-turning (Forester recommends the quick right turn manuever, as I recall).
Most left hook bike-car crashes seem to happen at mid-block left turns into driveways or parking lot entrances where there are no controls whatsoever (and also where the left turn is often not expected by the cyclist).
That's a good point...for those situations, I depend on lane positioning, "assertive" posture, and eye contact.
And if all else fails, I can yell really loud while braking and quick-turning (Forester recommends the quick right turn manuever, as I recall).
Helmet Head
12-19-06, 04:54 PM
That's a good point...for those situations, I depend on lane positioning, "assertive" posture, and eye contact.
And, hopefully, looking for confirming signs that there is no way they are turning left, or that they have noticed you.
And, hopefully, looking for confirming signs that there is no way they are turning left, or that they have noticed you.
Bekologist
12-19-06, 05:31 PM
No, I don't see how that alone could be construed as a yield - to the contrary.
You don't see it, that's not my problem. It works, and it works often. Why you have problems visualizing techniques different than your experience speaks volumes to your lack of experience and nothing of mine.
You don't see it, that's not my problem. It works, and it works often. Why you have problems visualizing techniques different than your experience speaks volumes to your lack of experience and nothing of mine.
Helmet Head
12-19-06, 05:43 PM
You don't see it, that's not my problem. It works, and it works often. Why you have problems visualizing techniques different than you experiences speaks volumes to your lack of experience and speaks nothing of mine.
Your inability to explain how or why moving left alone communicates yielding on your part to oncoming left-turners is what speaks volumes about your own lack of understanding of what is going on when you're doing whatever it is that you're trying to describe.
If you understand something, then you can explain it.
If you don't understand it, then you can't explain it.
If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it.
If you can explain it, then you do understand it.
Your inability to explain how or why moving left alone communicates yielding on your part to oncoming left-turners is what speaks volumes about your own lack of understanding of what is going on when you're doing whatever it is that you're trying to describe.
If you understand something, then you can explain it.
If you don't understand it, then you can't explain it.
If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it.
If you can explain it, then you do understand it.
joejack951
12-19-06, 06:32 PM
actually, al, i sometimes do it without the hand signal. it's very situational, by no means is it a blanket technique that can be applied to general traffic dynamics. I know when and where it is appropriate.
But it prompts positive cager feedback on occasion when I do it so i know it works.
I'm just saying that you can yield right of way by moving further left sometimes.
I've seen cyclists (mostly kids) move over to the left side of the road when approached from behind to allow same direction traffic to pass without changing lanes. I've also seen plenty of roadies (and kids and cyclists in Philly) switch to the left side of the road to make a left turn further down the road. Is it possible that these motorists think you are going to move to the opposite side of the road to let them turn faster? I don't see what else they could be thinking when a cyclist starts moving left. A simple foot or two left in the lane though certainly would be hard to mistake for someone moving to the left side of the road. I don't get it either.
But it prompts positive cager feedback on occasion when I do it so i know it works.
I'm just saying that you can yield right of way by moving further left sometimes.
I've seen cyclists (mostly kids) move over to the left side of the road when approached from behind to allow same direction traffic to pass without changing lanes. I've also seen plenty of roadies (and kids and cyclists in Philly) switch to the left side of the road to make a left turn further down the road. Is it possible that these motorists think you are going to move to the opposite side of the road to let them turn faster? I don't see what else they could be thinking when a cyclist starts moving left. A simple foot or two left in the lane though certainly would be hard to mistake for someone moving to the left side of the road. I don't get it either.
SingingSabre
12-19-06, 07:36 PM
Your inability to explain how or why moving left alone communicates yielding on your part to oncoming left-turners is what speaks volumes about your own lack of understanding of what is going on when you're doing whatever it is that you're trying to describe.
If you understand something, then you can explain it.
If you don't understand it, then you can't explain it.
If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it.
If you can explain it, then you do understand it.
"Hi Pot, I'm Kettle"
"Nice to meet you, Pot!"
"Kettle, you're black!"
"So are you, Pot!"
Get it? The only difference is that Bek has a good idea. He's presenting a target which says "you'll get past me faster" rather than "go faster and you might hit me."
Of course, you should know a few things about moving left in a lane, HH. See, it supposedly makes you more visible to other drivers. If another driver notices you, then you can let them go first so you're guaranteed to not get run down, smooshed, flattened, etc. by them.
Of course, Bek also mentioned that it's not the technique of choice for all chances of left hooks, just a few. Something that someone here doesn't practice.
If you understand something, then you can explain it.
If you don't understand it, then you can't explain it.
If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it.
If you can explain it, then you do understand it.
"Hi Pot, I'm Kettle"
"Nice to meet you, Pot!"
"Kettle, you're black!"
"So are you, Pot!"
Get it? The only difference is that Bek has a good idea. He's presenting a target which says "you'll get past me faster" rather than "go faster and you might hit me."
Of course, you should know a few things about moving left in a lane, HH. See, it supposedly makes you more visible to other drivers. If another driver notices you, then you can let them go first so you're guaranteed to not get run down, smooshed, flattened, etc. by them.
Of course, Bek also mentioned that it's not the technique of choice for all chances of left hooks, just a few. Something that someone here doesn't practice.
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