Living Car Free - Scarce parking Spots - Insanity

From the article:

This month, millions of Americans could find themselves in a similar predicament, fruitlessly orbiting packed parking lots in shopping centers, malls and downtowns as the holiday shopping season builds toward a peak.

They are the victims of a growing national parking crunch, the product of ever-increasing numbers of cars and scarcer places to put them in many cities.

In the past four decades, the number of registered vehicles has risen nearly 170% and the ranks of licensed drivers have doubled, Federal Highway Administration figures show.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2006-12-11-parking-usat_x.htm

Here's an article on the insane situation at malls regarding parking. I've been at quite a few malls recently and the parking situation is a nighmare. I see cars going around and around looking for parking wasting time and gas. Some malls are just horrendous and I'm one of the few that arrived by bicycle.

However, the article mentions public transportation but that alternative is a joke. Wait times approach an hour or more and the stop is usually in the middle of the lot where you have to stand in some cold shelter during the winter and an oven in the summer.

The real answer is cycling.

Few things are more satisfying than cruising past all of them and parking a few yards from the door.

Public transportation can be made efficient, it is just not a priority. Dropping a bus stop on the corner is not a public transportation plan. What about having a depot attached to these centers, where people can wait inside. It would take a fraction of the space required for parking lots and serve many people.

As for hour wait times - sometimes that is smart, sometimes not. Increased demand shortens that interval, and people can easily plan trips around schedules.

I agree that bikes are a great alternative, but efficient public transportation can be wonderful and more accessible for different people and weather conditions (not everyone wants to ride in pouring rain, or freezing weather, or extreme heat).

Note that another alternative is... gee... not having these ridiculous uber-malls 20 miles away from actual people.

In this area a few malls have decent public transport. When I got injured and couldn't bike one Christmas I did shopping by public transport. I used the malls with convenient access. At one the metro station is right at the mall you don't even have to go outside. At another the bus stop is right at the door, much closer than the parking garage.

Of course other malls seem deliberately designed to discourage any arrival mode but private car.

in our area, the lack of available spaces to park forces people to drive around until they find something. they circle around and around until someone gives up a spot or they just double park. this creates even more congestion and slows everything down even more.

Public transportation can be made efficient, it is just not a priority. Dropping a bus stop on the corner is not a public transportation plan. What about having a depot attached to these centers, where people can wait inside. It would take a fraction of the space required for parking lots and serve many people.

As for hour wait times - sometimes that is smart, sometimes not. Increased demand shortens that interval, and people can easily plan trips around schedules.

I agree that bikes are a great alternative, but efficient public transportation can be wonderful and more accessible for different people and weather conditions (not everyone wants to ride in pouring rain, or freezing weather, or extreme heat).

Note that another alternative is... gee... not having these ridiculous uber-malls 20 miles away from actual people.
Good plans. Short term--better public transit (My local bus line broke their old record for ridership, which was set only last year. And DOT reports ridership is up nationwide.) and more bikes. Long term--decentralized urban design with mixed use zoning, so shops are closer to homes, workplaces and schools.

in our area, the lack of available spaces to park forces people to drive around until they find something. they circle around and around until someone gives up a spot or they just double park. this creates even more congestion and slows everything down even more.
"Forces" them? Oh no. They choose to drive and contribute to the congestion. Don't feel sorry for them, they're morons. Driving around in circles like that, even a cockroach would have more sense!

I live about two miles from Colorado Mills mall, here in Lakewood, CO. They used to have a bus transfer station in the parking lot, but a few months ago, they told RTD that they were not going to be allowed to use it anymore, and now the buses all stop out on the main street that goes past... They cited troublemakers getting off the bus and harassing their customers as the reason, but very shortly after RTD moved it's routes, they brought in the tractors and started building a bar on the same spot.

.... They cited troublemakers getting off the bus and harassing their customers as the reason, . . . . they brought in the tractors and started building a bar on the same spot.
Of course bars never bring in troublemakers!

Good plans. Short term--better public transit (My local bus line broke their old record for ridership, which was set only last year. And DOT reports ridership is up nationwide.) and more bikes. Long term--decentralized urban design with mixed use zoning, so shops are closer to homes, workplaces and schools.


Do you think that de-centralised zoning will be possible? considering how the big box stores like to have an area to draw people too. What you are suggesting seems better suited to smaller stores that are not driven by massive profits. This seems backwards to what the corporations want to happpen.

Do you think that de-centralised zoning will be possible? considering how the big box stores like to have an area to draw people too. What you are suggesting seems better suited to smaller stores that are not driven by massive profits. This seems backwards to what the corporations want to happpen.
Well duh. The corporations want to make lots of money before the world heats up and/or runs out of oil. Nobody said they're smart--just greedy. That's why it's important to opt out--support local businesses so they can make a good profit. Vote for smart politicians (if they exist!) instead of those who accept legal corporate bribes. And most important of all--Quit driving!

Vote for smart politicians (if they exist!) instead of those who accept legal corporate bribes.

Find em and I'll vote for them

The corporations want to make lots of money before the world heats up and/or runs out of oil. Nobody said they're smart--just greedy. That's why it's important to opt out--support local businesses so they can make a good profit. Vote for smart politicians (if they exist!) instead of those who accept legal corporate bribes. And most important of all--Quit driving!


Do the politicians get in because of the money that they get from big corporations, or because they have the best interests of the future in hand? And whos future is it? As you have said they are greedy. It's easy enough to say stop driving but for most people they see it as impossible. There would have to be the de-centralised zoning that you mentioned to make it possible to depend less on the car. At the same time the big box stores are able to draw people out of the burbs because people have cars.

I agree that depending less on cars is a good idea. It seems that for most people that we make fun of, who circle endlessly looking for a spot, that they will put up with almost any situation no matter how frustrating it is. How can one like that be reasoned with?

Good plans. Short term--better public transit (My local bus line broke their old record for ridership, which was set only last year. And DOT reports ridership is up nationwide.) and more bikes. Long term--decentralized urban design with mixed use zoning, so shops are closer to homes, workplaces and schools.

My thoughts exactly.

victims? ha ha.

Anyway, round here all the malls have excellent bus service. In fact many are effectively hubs where there are mulitiple bus bays and you can transfer to just about any direction needed.

This is to the dismay of my bus commuting friend though whos afternoon bus ride home involves a 5min detour the the mall and a 25min wait at the mall.

Al

"Scarce parking Spots-Insanity"....IMHO more like stupidity, there is nothing at those malls that probably can't be gotten via Internet or from a more local source. I have started going out of my way to avoid any place that has more sf of parking than they have retail space. And as a previous poster pointed out the big box greed retailers are the ones fueling it. Would someone explain to me why in an area with a total population base of around .25 million we "need" multiple Walmarts? Not just one or two but 7 Super Centers in a 3 county area, the largest city in the entire area is only about 70,000. Now that is insane! BTW there are also 3 good sized shopping malls and all of the associated strip mall crap that goes along with suburbia.

Aaron:)

About a month ago the Globe and Mail ran an article about the lack of parking in richmond hill's Lunch time rush hour. That city is planning a free public transit service to get people from offices to the malls for lunch - I wish them luck :). A better plan for that problem IMHO is for the companies to realise the lost productivity by not providing cafeteria services or perhaps reconsidering their move to the suburbs in the first place.

As far as the parking problem is concerned - I would suggest that malls use parking stalls that vary in size. If the mall painted lines for compacts/subcompacts in one area and trucks/SUV's in another, they could make the lines closer together and increase the number of parking spots significantly. If they sized them for subcompacts/SMART cars they could probably increase the capacity of their lot by 50% or more.

Another issue which I have noticed in Calgary is that a lot of malls are set up so that people are encouraged to DRIVE from one store to another, in the same mall. They could use their parking much more efficiently if they had underground parking under the mall, and then have them walk/take an elevator up. That way the stalls are allocated to all stores, instead of needing multiple stalls for the same purchaser.

Final suggestion - build high rise condos on the parking lots - and presto! Suddenly you have thousands of shoppers who cannot drive to your mall (because they live there already), but are encouraged to shop there regularly. Given zoning laws in many jurisdictions, these condos often have surplus parking spots in their underground parking lots that can be used for pay parking/mall parking. If the mall developer builds the condos and charges a lot for the spots many people will opt not to buy a stall (this happened in about 50% of the units in my parents condo), and they may end up with more parking than they started with, and a large pool of shoppers at their doorstep.

North Hill mall in Calgary almost got it right, but they forgot to open up their condo parking spots to the general public (or they charged too little so there were few people who opted to buy units with no parking).

This is an issue that could be solved by spending little or no money - which puzzles me as to why it doesn't happen more often.

About a month ago the Globe and Mail ran an article about the lack of parking in richmond hill's Lunch time rush hour. That city is planning a free public transit service to get people from offices to the malls for lunch - I wish them luck :). A better plan for that problem IMHO is for the companies to realise the lost productivity by not providing cafeteria services or perhaps reconsidering their move to the suburbs in the first place.


I wonder how much time and money one would save if one brought a lunch to work, instead of spending all that time and energy trying to find a spot to park you car so you can eat lunch. :D Almost comical.

As far as the parking problem is concerned - I would suggest that malls use parking stalls that vary in size. If the mall painted lines for compacts/subcompacts in one area and trucks/SUV's in another, they could make the lines closer together and increase the number of parking spots significantly. If they sized them for subcompacts/SMART cars they could probably increase the capacity of their lot by 50% or more.

:roflmao:

You know what ACTUALLY happens when you do that, don't you? You get someone parking a super cab, extended bed dually pickup in a spot designated 'Subcompact cars only' ... then not only do you have someone taking up more than one space, but they're blocking half the driving lane as well. :)

That's why I shop online.

Order present..click
Gift wrapped..click
Drop shipped to recipient..click

Done

As far as the parking problem is concerned - I would suggest that malls use parking stalls that vary in size. If the mall painted lines for compacts/subcompacts in one area and trucks/SUV's in another, they could make the lines closer together and increase the number of parking spots significantly. If they sized them for subcompacts/SMART cars they could probably increase the capacity of their lot by 50% or more.



Final suggestion - build high rise condos on the parking lots - and presto! Suddenly you have thousands of shoppers who cannot drive to your mall (because they live there already), but are encouraged to shop there regularly.



These ideas have been applied in the US.
Since I don't have a car I don't remember if the malls still do have compact car only spots closer to the doors. They used to. If I were a mall owner I'd want to discourage the odd frugal American driving a smart car, you know a fool and his money are soon parted, you'd want people in SUVs as customers wouldn't you? That is probably why the malls aren't bike friendly. Judging by their posts about saving money, a common retailer wouldn't want to waste his time with the likes of wahoonc or dahon.steve or tightwad when he can sell a load of crap to some fat SUV yahoo who with his wasteful car advertises himself as gullible.

The second idea condos near the mall is occurring here too. Who but a car culture addict would want to live near a transit unfriendly mall? I suspect that the people dwelling in those new condos at the edge of the Springfield Mall parking lot drive across the parking lot and circle to get a space near the door. Its a crappy walk or bike ride. When I bike with friends to that mall the part from where the condos are across the parking lot is the worst part of the ride. Maybe condos in a high rise above the mall would work.

A friend lived in an apartment near a very transit friendly mall but I don't remember if she drove to it. She sold her car and moved to NYC shortly afterwards.

These ideas have been applied in the US.
Since I don't have a car I don't remember if the malls still do have compact car only spots closer to the doors. They used to. If I were a mall owner I'd want to discourage the odd frugal American driving a smart car, you know a fool and his money are soon parted, you'd want people in SUVs as customers wouldn't you? That is probably why the malls aren't bike friendly. Judging by their posts about saving money, a common retailer wouldn't want to waste his time with the likes of wahoonc or dahon.steve or tightwad when he can sell a load of crap to some fat SUV yahoo who with his wasteful car advertises himself as gullible.

The big SUV's save the stores from having to ship the stuff out to the customers as well. You can load up that plasma or other cool toy right away and take it off thier hands. It makes for less work on the part of the stores. They really vacum in a lot of cash.

A friend lived in an apartment near a very transit friendly mall but I don't remember if she drove to it. She sold her car and moved to NYC shortly afterwards.

I know there is one out in Crystal City...my wife used to live in The Lennox Club, she was based at National (DCA) and used mass transit, her husband at the time was the typical American and drove everywhere he could....did the same crap when they were at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn too:rolleyes: probably why is an ex:D We now live in what used to be the country and will be moving to a smallish (9k) town in the next year or so. At that time we will be parking one of the vehicles and moving about town with bicycles and by walking. As far as I know the town has no mass transit, but it is only 3x4 miles in size.

Aaron:)

You guys missed the obvious point - BOYCOTT CHRISTMAS. The biggest crunch comes when all those overconsuming fools go buy more crap at the mall that nobody wants or needs. To get you in the proper anti-christmas spirit - http://www.xmasresistance.org/

Bah humbug.

:roflmao:

You know what ACTUALLY happens when you do that, don't you? You get someone parking a super cab, extended bed dually pickup in a spot designated 'Subcompact cars only' ... then not only do you have someone taking up more than one space, but they're blocking half the driving lane as well. :)

My experience with on-street parking differs (ok parallel parking is different, but I think some of the principles will hold). On our street, if you want to park a pick up truck, you are often out of luck - because the cars pack as closely as possible (I get mad when people leave more than a foot on each side). You basically have to wait until two people take off at once if you want to park a large vehicle. Since that is fairly rare, in practise you might just have to move on.

If there were a lot of narrow and short spots in a busy mall parking lot, someone might park a big car in a double spot, but when they leave, someone will park a small car in one of the spots, leaving a spot too small for someone else to park a big car there.

Not sure what to do about the end hanging out problem - it does occur in a mall close to me. People just wait and/or lay on their horns (rather ineffective :))

I know from experience that my '79 Blazer fits into a 'compact' spot. It might be touching all the lines, but it fits. :p

Hrmm... I may have to fire it up and make sure it still runs.

I know from experience that my '79 Blazer fits into a 'compact' spot. It might be touching all the lines, but it fits. :p

Hrmm... I may have to fire it up and make sure it still runs.
Better yet--blow it up and be sure that it won't run. ;)

A few christmases back, my sister wanted a last-minute gift and sent me to get it. It was a ways off, so I drove (I'd ride today). I didn't even bother with the mall parking lot; there was an abondoned Kmart across the way, so I parked there and walked over to the mall. Bought my nephew his train and left. As I was walking back thru the parking lot, cars kept following me, hoping for a space. I kept waving them off, but one persistent cuss followed me. As I walked to the edge of the mall lot and then off it, he rolled down his window and screamed "@#%$ YOU!" at me.

I haven't driven to the mall since, though I did ride a bike out there a couple weeks ago-- had to get fitted for a tux for a wedding party.

A few christmases back, my sister wanted a last-minute gift and sent me to get it. It was a ways off, so I drove (I'd ride today). I didn't even bother with the mall parking lot; there was an abondoned Kmart across the way, so I parked there and walked over to the mall. Bought my nephew his train and left. As I was walking back thru the parking lot, cars kept following me, hoping for a space. I kept waving them off, but one persistent cuss followed me. As I walked to the edge of the mall lot and then off it, he rolled down his window and screamed "@#%$ YOU!" at me.

Some people have an interesting way of saying merry christmas. It would have been funny to see his face if you would have blown him a kiss, or given him a thimbs up.

A few christmases back, my sister wanted a last-minute gift and sent me to get it. It was a ways off, so I drove (I'd ride today). I didn't even bother with the mall parking lot; there was an abondoned Kmart across the way, so I parked there and walked over to the mall. Bought my nephew his train and left. As I was walking back thru the parking lot, cars kept following me, hoping for a space. I kept waving them off, but one persistent cuss followed me. As I walked to the edge of the mall lot and then off it, he rolled down his window and screamed "@#%$ YOU!" at me.

I haven't driven to the mall since, though I did ride a bike out there a couple weeks ago-- had to get fitted for a tux for a wedding party.

:roflmao:

People are stupid. :p