Living Car Free - Motor or Engine-assisted bikes... Heresy?

Double post removed by Moderators after merging two threads

What's everyone's opinion on this? Do you consider petroleum-powered or electric powered (which get charged from a wall-outlet that likely draws from a Coal plant) bicycles as viable "car free" alternatives, for use when you need more speed, more torque (for heavier loads), or longer range than you could get without assistance?

For instance, I could easily make my whole commute (60 miles RT) WITHOUT leaving at 5am and getting home at 8pm, with a kit like this:

http://cleverchimp.com/products/stokemonkey/

And to top it off, the increased speed and capacity would make things like fast-food runs, trips to home depot, and scavenging the curbside for things I can use, possible on a bike. Matter of fact, if santa got me that setup for Christmas, I probably wouldn't need my car or the city bus for anything more than long-distance (hundreds of miles per day) trips with the wife.

I know there are dozens, if not 100+ different kits out there for adding electric or gasoline power to a bike. Does this kind of go against the "car free" lifestyle?

They pollute, and they're noisy. I have come across a couple of them being operated illegally on my local MUP on old beater x-mart bikes with virtually no braking ability by riders with the attitude that they have some sort of right of way. If you do get one at least keep it on the road where it belongs.

BTW I have commuted over 60 miles a day, 5 or 6 days a week for many car free years, and I work 12 hour shifts - it's no big deal. If you get one its not because you 'need' one.

The maker of the cleverchip electric assist (todd, a.k.a. tfahrner on these boards,) is well-respected here. He's been car free for a long time and (i think) is pretty savvy about the political ideals of all sorts of car-free folks.

The amount of fossil fuels used by a 100-pound power-assist bike is a pittance compared to the consumption of a 3000-pound vehicle.

If you're thinking about getting rid of one of your family's cars (I'm not sure how many you have) or just letting your car spend most of its time sitting still I think all of us here would applaud that. If a power assist bike is what makes that feasible, then by all means get one.

Electric assist bikes are not as versatile as we might want them to be, though. I think Todd's kits are more practical than most electric kits for long range and high speed commutes, but i'm not sure whether it's up to the task of a fast 60 mile round trip and you shouldn't expect top speeds much over 25 miles per hour, i think.

Totally OT, but that's hellaspensive for what it is. If you have any inclination to DIY, I'd go get a 450W electric scooter motor/controller, a flip flop hub w/ two free wheels of appropriate gearing, however many batts you need, a 40-80w solar panel/charge regulator, an appropriately sized deep cycle LA batt, and NiMH charger. Probably missed something, but that way you can be grid independent in terms of energy, have something that's as useful, and not pay out da butt.

Electric assist bikes are not as versatile as we might want them to be, though. I think Todd's kits are more practical than most electric kits for long range and high speed commutes, but i'm not sure whether it's up to the task of a fast 60 mile round trip and you shouldn't expect top speeds much over 25 miles per hour, i think.

Well, I'm still fat and out of shape... err... Round is a shape...

I have a family, and being away for 15-17 hours for a 9 hour work day isn't going to fly. My wife respects that I'm utility cycling as much as I can because:

1) I love it
2) I want to get healthier
3) It's saving us money

Spending 6-8 hours on the road a day would be a show stopper. There's a bunch of hills no matter what route I take, and even once I start getting in shape, I doubt I could carry much more than maybe a 10 MPH average for the entire trip. 30 miles each way means 6 hours on the road. Maybe in another 2 years I'll have lungs, heart, and legs of steel and can hammer through it in 3-4 hours.

If Stokemonkey shaves that down to an hour and a half each direction in the short term, it wouldn't really be much slower than taking the bus, once you consider all the streets it hits and stops it makes that are superfluous to my commute. I wasn't expecting much more than the ability to hold a 20 MPH average with assist. I certainly didn't think anything would make my bike capable of keeping up with suburban 45 MPH traffic.

I already own two great compact cars that get good gas mileage, but they're getting more and more jealous these days. For the last 2 months, I've been using them only when something at work requires me to be there outside the bus schedule (once per week). I did all my christmas shopping on my bike (http://kc-bike.blogspot.com/2006/12/fun-return-trip.html) and I always use it for trips to the grocery store.

I just keep thinking, I could avoid the hassle and expense of the bus, then I wouldn't need to rely on its schedule. I wouldn't need the car. I could save $650+ per year in bus fare, and tell my consulting company to cancel my $50/mo parking space at work... And voila. It wouldn't take long to get a good return.

Anyhow, sounds like a mixed bag of opinions so far. I kind of expected some hostility.

For what it's worth, the electric ones aren't THAT noisy and most of the pollution is from the electricity generated to charge it. I rarely use the local MUP as it is. I certainly wouldn't be operating under power where it's not legal. Likely, I would use a lighter and more practical bike for recreational use on a trail anyways, and I always keep my brakes in top shape.

I think they can help wean society off its over dependence on cars.

I've considered these before so that I could get to work and not be too sweaty. I've since discounted these for me, personally. It wasn't versatile enough to haul up the stairs when the elevator was out of service. It also wouldn't cut it in winter. It would add to the complexity of my bicycle and this was one of my main reasons for ditching the Nissan. Finally there is the noise, poor efficiency, and environmental damage.

Having said that this was my choice. I've overcome my reason to get the motor by dressing more appropriatelly :).

I think a pollution free, quiet, electric assist is the way to go. Even if it is pollution free locally. Hey, I'd love for all the cars to be electric so that I don't have to breathe in the crap when I'm cycling. A boon would be if they could build the coal powered station by a volcanoe, we wouldn't notice the pollution ;).

I have no philosophical argument against it, although i don't foresee getting one.

Any way you can test drive it for an entire commute before purchasing?

I vote for the electric over the gas, but that is personal preference. I have owned many small two stroke engines over the years (still have a couple:eek: ) and they can be very temperamental. Plus in both cases (electric and gas) if the unit goes down for whatever reason you are going to have one heavy sucker to pedal the rest of the way home:p Any chance on moving closer to work or telecommuting?

Aaron:)

No telecommuting, and I'm a contracted employee anyways (basically, a temp-to-hire). I would like a job closer to home, but there's a good chance I'll be here for a while, and might even get on full time. I wouldn't want to live any closer to downtown KC than I already do.

Well, I'm still fat and out of shape... err... Round is a shape...

Yup, round is a shape, and thats the shape you'll stay in with motorised transport.



There's a bunch of hills no matter what route I take, and even once I start getting in shape, I doubt I could carry much more than maybe a 10 MPH average for the entire trip.
What do you base that on? you have no idea at the moment as you haven't even tried.


Maybe in another 2 years I'll have lungs, heart, and legs of steel and can hammer through it in 3-4 hours.
And how are you going to get that heart & lung capacity, and legs of steel?...oh yeah, that's right, with motorised transport.:rolleyes:

If you're looking for a cheaper transport option that's fine, nothing wrong with that. But if you're not willing to overcome a few hurdles then don't kid yourself, you'll still be overweight and unhealthy, and you'll still be using motorised transport 2 years from now. I've dropped over 70 pounds over the last 3 years and plan on dropping another 20 over the next 2 years. The only reason I dropped the weight is that I bit the bullet and did what had to be done starting with 7 hours a day on the bike. I won't lie to you, in the first year i was in a world of pain. Now I cruise through a hilly 30 mile commute at over 18mph average, and can top 20mph average if I'm in a hurry - not too bad for a 40 year old. i do that 5 days a week, rain hail or shine, day or night, and if I can do it with zero athletic talent then anyone can, its just a question of commitment.

ax0n, the choice is yours to make. Motors for convenience, muscles for vitality.

If you're looking for a cheaper transport option that's fine, nothing wrong with that. But if you're not willing to overcome a few hurdles then don't kid yourself, you'll still be overweight and unhealthy, and you'll still be using motorised transport 2 years from now. I've dropped over 70 pounds over the last 3 years and plan on dropping another 20 over the next 2 years. The only reason I dropped the weight is that I bit the bullet and did what had to be done starting with 7 hours a day on the bike. I won't lie to you, in the first year i was in a world of pain. Now I cruise through a hilly 30 mile commute at over 18mph average, and can top 20mph average if I'm in a hurry - not too bad for a 40 year old. i do that 5 days a week, rain hail or shine, day or night, and if I can do it with zero athletic talent then anyone can, its just a question of commitment.

I don't *HAVE* 35 hours per week to spend on a bike on top of the 45 hours a week I spend at work. It's not about commitment to my health. It's about having a family. I don't plan on letting a freaking motor tote me along at 20 MPH day in and day out while I put my feet on the handlebars, eat a whole box of twinkies, and catch up on the WSJ on my way to work. Sure, if I ride the 60 miles per day for a year, my heart will get stronger, my lungs will get better, my weight will melt away, my legs will tone up, and my times will get better. I still don't see 60 miles round trip taking a reasonable amount of time.

As of current, I'm riding a pitiful 10-15 miles per day 4-5 days per week after modifying my bi-modal commute route. I'm still losing weight, and I was losing weight riding 6-10 miles per day 2-3 days a week when I started doing this 10 weeks ago. I seriously doubt that I'd start packing on the pounds if I upped my ride to 60 miles with assistance.

But hey, it's your perogative, I suppose. After I map out a few more routes to get to work, and once the sun decides to stay out a little longer, I'll go ahead and give it a shot just to say that I can and I did.

I'm not on that much of a leash, but I don't see how anyone here can think that spending 70% of your life away from home just to get to work and back is a good thing.

It's absurd to think that you have to spend seven hours a day on a bicycle to be healthy. The 10-15 miles a day 4-5 days a week you mentioned should work fine for just about anybody. Besides the electric assist bike, there are other alternatives to explore: you could try riding the full trip on your regular bike once or twice a week, or if your bus has bike racks you could rid part way on the bus and bike the rest of the way, or you could drive part way and bike the rest.

Well, my opinion is that carfree living in a car dependent world is a Version 0.9 kind of experimental lifestyle. The bugs haven't been worked out yet.

Ax0n, I looked at your blog to get some deeper insight into your original question. The opinion I can offer is that you are experiencing the difficulty of finding a transportation mode that's anywhere near to being a direct functional substitute for a personal motor vehicle.

When I became carfree a few years ago I thought I'd just replace my car travel with walking, public transit, and eventually cycling. I racked up lots of miles that way with blisters on my feet, saddle sores, and spending hours a day on buses.

It slowly dawned on me that successful carfree living for me depends a lot on making new life choices to reduce the amount of transportation required to live the way I want. Those choices can be as simple as deciding to shop at the local grocery store instead of a better one that's further away. Or they can be as complicated as changing jobs or moving to a different neighborhood.

I think most people here are very fortunate that they can make many such life choices as they see fit. This is not the case for people especially in the less developed countries who are more economically challenged. I also think that in the future Americans are likely to be more constrained in their transportation choices. But for now, the energy party's not over yet. Make your transportation choices to suit yourself in light of your own experiences. We can discuss them and of course we will have differing opinions, but for now they are your choices and you have the liberty to make them as you see fit.

Yes, right now the bus is the missing link. It's a crutch, really. It's slow, but it's faster than riding the whole trip would be (at least, in my current state of bodily disarray). I hit the bus via bike as often as I possibly can, which is always at least four if not five work days per week. I went 2 weeks without driving my car a while ago. Even in snow that buried the front hub of my bike.

Resilience isn't a problem. I could do 30 miles, twice a day. That's not a problem either (but it would be a slow and painful trip).

I guess I should have gone with my instincts, but this question has been pestering me for a while. "what would the car-free people think..."

I knew the answer all along. Everyone here is from a different walk of life, so there will be as many different answers as there are people replying.

Personally, I'm doing it because it's fun and good for me. That's it. And when it stops being fun, half my passion will be gone. 60 miles a day wouldn't be fun right now. So maybe I'll just build up to it, even if it takes 5 years.

And edit:

You're only half-right about me looking for something to replace a motor vehicle. Quite the contrary, I love my cars. I love wrenching on them, I love driving very, very fast, I like autocrossing and technical courses that require one to show a measure of restraint and control. I like getting oil on my arms and face and in my hair. I like the scream of 16,000 tiny explosions per minute, neck-snapping accelleration, and all that stuff. I wouldn't trade it for the world.

But despite my cars being in top shape and one of them getting 42 MPG without any hybrid trickery, it's not nearly as relaxing, reliable, efficient, or fun as a bike when it comes to getting from point a to point B. The only thing a car does better is cover long distances faster, and quite frankly, the trade-off isn't worth it most of the time.

I'm looking to have a bike as a daily driver for everything mundane and close, and have the car for only recreational purposes and long trips. Now you know why I was so vague. Flame away.

On the average I cycle about 7 miles a day with occasional hills in the 5% range. Sometimes I will ride up to 25 miles or so without any extra effort or aftereffects. I'm 54 and weigh 260 pounds, which is 40 less than my all time high, but weight loss from cycling has not been my goal since experience indicates that it all eventually returns with 5% interest. This is the background.

In two years my average cruising speed has improved from around 8 to about 10.5 mph. More important, there are a couple of 9-10% grade hills I now climb without stopping where when I started I needed to pause twice to catch my breath.

This isn't a result that would impress anyone in the athletic subforums, but I think it might indicate the minimum you could expect just by cycling moderately and persistently for a couple of years.

I don't *HAVE* 35 hours per week to spend on a bike on top of the 45 hours a week I spend at work. It's not about commitment to my health. It's about having a family. I don't plan on letting a freaking motor tote me along at 20 MPH day in and day out while I put my feet on the handlebars, eat a whole box of twinkies, and catch up on the WSJ on my way to work. Sure, if I ride the 60 miles per day for a year, my heart will get stronger, my lungs will get better, my weight will melt away, my legs will tone up, and my times will get better. I still don't see 60 miles round trip taking a reasonable amount of time.

As of current, I'm riding a pitiful 10-15 miles per day 4-5 days per week after modifying my bi-modal commute route. I'm still losing weight, and I was losing weight riding 6-10 miles per day 2-3 days a week when I started doing this 10 weeks ago. I seriously doubt that I'd start packing on the pounds if I upped my ride to 60 miles with assistance.

But hey, it's your perogative, I suppose. After I map out a few more routes to get to work, and once the sun decides to stay out a little longer, I'll go ahead and give it a shot just to say that I can and I did.

I'm not on that much of a leash, but I don't see how anyone here can think that spending 70% of your life away from home just to get to work and back is a good thing.

We have the exact same ammount of time - 24 hours each day, it's just a matter of how we choose to use them.

Look, I'm not apologising for some harsh sounding advice only because I do practice exactly what I preach (I have 3 young children also) and I know it works. It's great that you are doing the ammount of riding that you do, and combined with healthy eating habits you'll get fitter, healthier, and faster on the bike, so keep it up.

When you feel ready I would encourage you to at least try your entire commute just once, maybe on a Friday so you have the weekend to recover. It will be a challenge, and completing it will give you a great psychological boost. In the mean time look at multimode transpost as others have suggested, you have some good options to choose from.

Whatever you decide, I really do wish all the best for you, you're out there thinking outside the metal box and that's fantastic. I hope it works out, and you know we'll always be right here with words of encouragement any time its needed.:)

...I do however stand by my initial answer to your initial question - I hate those bike motor contraptions :D

I like getting oil on my arms and face and in my hair.

Eww, I'm glad I don't have to like getting oil on me to ride an oil-lubricated bicycle. My allergies act up when I spend too much time around bike lubricants.


They pollute, and they're noisy.

I'm not sure about the cleverchimp thing, but many electric assists for bikes are basically inaudible. And yes, electric assist bikes pollute, but I'd say the per-person pollution isn't that much worse than your average diesel bus.

P.S., I have never actually tried todd's electric assist, I just think that the idea behind it (i.e. multi-speed chain-drive electric assist) is a good one.

Eww, I'm glad I don't have to like getting oil on me to ride an oil-lubricated bicycle. My allergies act up when I spend too much time around bike lubricants.

It's probably just the kid in me that likes getting dirty. Except now it's my wife chewing me out, not my mom. But Laundry is one of my many chores, so she can't complain about having to clean my grimy clothes. :)

I'll give the 60 mile round trip a shot once the weather is nicer. Like I said, I already go bi-modal with the bus, and rarely touch my car. If I'm too tuckered out to get home after the 30-mile ride to work, I'll just take the bus home and ride the 3 miles home from the bus stop. It'd be a start, at least. Plus, I'd still get HOME at a decent time. I value my evening time with the wife more than the morning time anyways.

Looks like I'll just stick it out and work on my endurance.

... As of current, I'm riding a pitiful 10-15 miles per day 4-5 days per week after modifying my bi-modal commute route ...

Heh, that's great! Nothing pitiful about that.

Went portaging with a friend he stated that when we go into the woods, he doesn't want to make it an "enduro" event. He wants to enjoy it so that he will come back later. I love that philosophy because I often have to force myself to do "cool" things, probably because I do make them "enduro" events :).

I should have put "pitiful" in "quotes" - partially because it's only 1/4 of the total distance I'd need to ride every day if I went bike only, and partially because some people think it's a subpar effort, and I'm destined to remain a clyde for the rest of my life until I become a man and can ride 300+ miles every week for several years in a row... ;)

I realize that 15 miles a day isn't that shabby. A lot of people I work with couldn't ride 10 in a single sitting.

Does this kind of go against the "car free" lifestyle?

My take on them is that they tend to be toys. Even if well built, they are marketed at people who would rather be driving. So they tend to be used a few times and abandoned.

I think if you are serious about motorized wheels, you will upgrade yourself to a full-sized motorcycle just for the fun, added acceleration and carrying capacity. Otherwise, a bicycle will do fine.

I've dropped over 70 pounds over the last 3 years and plan on dropping another 20 over the next 2 years. The only reason I dropped the weight is that I bit the bullet and did what had to be done starting with 7 hours a day on the bike. I won't lie to you, in the first year i was in a world of pain. Now I cruise through a hilly 30 mile commute at over 18mph average, and can top 20mph average if I'm in a hurry - not too bad for a 40 year old. i do that 5 days a week, rain hail or shine, day or night, and if I can do it with zero athletic talent then anyone can, its just a question of commitment.

My hat's off to you. I think you win the long commute contest.

My longest commute was 17 miles each way. I got in better shape, but I also got exceedingly bored and found that that much cycling interfered with what I hoped to accomplish in life. When I moved to Arkansas, a short commute was one of my highest priorities in finding an apartment.

Well, I'm still fat and out of shape... err... Round is a shape...

I have a family, and being away for 15-17 hours for a 9 hour work day isn't going to fly. My wife respects that I'm utility cycling as much as I can because:

1) I love it
2) I want to get healthier
3) It's saving us money

Spending 6-8 hours on the road a day would be a show stopper. There's a bunch of hills no matter what route I take, and even once I start getting in shape, I doubt I could carry much more than maybe a 10 MPH average for the entire trip. 30 miles each way means 6 hours on the road. Maybe in another 2 years I'll have lungs, heart, and legs of steel and can hammer through it in 3-4 hours.

If Stokemonkey shaves that down to an hour and a half each direction in the short term, it wouldn't really be much slower than taking the bus, once you consider all the streets it hits and stops it makes that are superfluous to my commute. I wasn't expecting much more than the ability to hold a 20 MPH average with assist. I certainly didn't think anything would make my bike capable of keeping up with suburban 45 MPH traffic.

I already own two great compact cars that get good gas mileage, but they're getting more and more jealous these days. For the last 2 months, I've been using them only when something at work requires me to be there outside the bus schedule (once per week). I did all my christmas shopping on my bike (http://kc-bike.blogspot.com/2006/12/fun-return-trip.html) and I always use it for trips to the grocery store.

I just keep thinking, I could avoid the hassle and expense of the bus, then I wouldn't need to rely on its schedule. I wouldn't need the car. I could save $650+ per year in bus fare, and tell my consulting company to cancel my $50/mo parking space at work... And voila. It wouldn't take long to get a good return.

Anyhow, sounds like a mixed bag of opinions so far. I kind of expected some hostility.

For what it's worth, the electric ones aren't THAT noisy and most of the pollution is from the electricity generated to charge it. I rarely use the local MUP as it is. I certainly wouldn't be operating under power where it's not legal. Likely, I would use a lighter and more practical bike for recreational use on a trail anyways, and I always keep my brakes in top shape.


30 miles from work? Sounds like you should consider moving, or a different job - then you wouldn't need all the excuses.

I like the stokemonkey and am considering picking one up for a forthcoming Big Dummy. On the other hand, gas-powered bicycles seem wrong.

Let me preface this by saying I am not car free but try to stay car lite by bicycle commuting and using a bicycle to run many errands.
First I think a 2-stroke ICE assist while farily fuel efficient will be noisy and is very polluting.
Second many electric assist kits I have seen seem to be pretty low quality. There are a few kits that do seem to be a pretty good but ofcourse are expensive.
Most electric kits have an ~20mile range which means they tend to target casual cyclist and are not suitable for a long commute.
The Clever Chimp kit however does appear to be a good quality kit that has optional battery packs providing good range. Attached to a Big Dummy or Xtracycle it would make a good utility vehicle. However at 60miles/day you will need to charge at both ends and you will likely wear out the batteries quickly.
Riding an electric assist bike 60 miles a day will definately help to improve or maintain your health with exercise. This is most especially if you provide a significant input to the cycle.
I know this goes against human powered but if you insist on needing to travel 30 miles or more for your work a 50cc - 125cc 4stroke scooter is less expensive than the xtracycle with CleverChimp and is very efficient and fairly clean. This would also give you the flexibilty of travel a bike provides with travel times less than the bus or bike. Just an option to think about if it does not offend you.
Craig

You say that your main goal is to spend more time with your family, so you seriously need to reconsider the 30 mile commute. No matter what mode of transit is used, you'll be spending unnecessary time commuting, and thereby you'll be sabotaging your own stated main goal. In other words, self-defeating behavior--no gain.

Why can't you move? Is there no housing closer to work? Or are there no jobs closer to your current home? Or is spending less time on the commute actually a secondary goal? Maybe at this stage of your life, living in the suburbs and advancing in your career is actually a more important consideration? There's nothing wrong with that--but you have to decide!

I'm not sure that you have a good grasp on your priorities. I doubt if you'll be happy until you get this figured out.

I'm basically a temp here. I spent a month out of work after getting sick of (and jumping ship from) a start-up after working there 5 months. I had the funds, so I took my time and looked around for a good job. I found an offer that was too good to pass up. Basically, this job was a $14,000 per year raise over the start-up job, which was a $12,000 raise from the job I had back in January of this year.

So, this job was to start saving for a house, and possibly finish my education and maybe put the wife through school too.

You guys are missing the point.

I don't know how many times I can re-iterate it, but my bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me. My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me.

My bi-modal commute is fast enough for me.

Bike ride included, I CAN get home in about an hour or so. If I leave my office at 4:05, I can either wait until 4:30 for the next bus to stop a few blocks from work (I'll get home about 6:00) or if I skip the bus stop close to my work when I'm going home, and bomb through downtown kansas city at a time-trial-esque pace, and go to the bus stop right before it hits the highway, I can get back into town by 4:50 or so, and easily get home around 5. This is because the bus makes a lot of stops around town AFTER the closest bus stop to work, and BEFORE getting on the highway.

The only reasons I want to cut out the bus part of my commute:

1) I don't like being on someone else's schedule, and the last bus home leaves at 5:16PM

2) I like cycling, and it could save me some money, not that it's really that much

The only reason I put up with the bus: It is faster than cycling (at least until I get the body and skill of an endurance racer)

No, I won't move closer to downtown for a boring temp-to-hire job with excellent pay.

No, I won't quit my temp job unless I can get a cushier job closer to home.

Yes, I am looking at jobs, and have notified the head-hunters that are constantly courting me, to keep an eye open for jobs closer to where I live.

My ears have been ringing. I think the gist of the OP's question is in the Stokemonkey FAQ: "Q: Isn’t it cheating to put a motor on a bicycle? A: Only if you use it for trips that you could enjoy, or learn to enjoy, on your own power alone. We think you should use a regular bike for those trips. A worse form of cheating is using a multi-ton vehicle for trips that Stokemonkey makes easy, while flattering yourself that you are too strong and pure a bicyclist to use a motor."

As for cost/value vs. a DIY thing: we're coming up on 4 years of continuous development. If you are gifted and diligent, and have access to a wide array of shop tools, I do think you can make something that works nearly as well as Stokemonkey at lower material cost, but as soon as you count the value of your time, forget about it. If you really enjoy tinkering, go for it. You'll be tinkering a lot to approach the level of refinement we're still dialing in, and will continue to. Now, you might have different success criteria and be able to save money if your design priorities are different: http://cleverchimp.com/products/stokemonkey/design/

60 miles daily is a hell of a commute. Several Stokemonkey users do >40 miles daily. We just sold our first kit to a fellow doing 40 miles each way. He's doing it now solely on his own power. We'll see how he likes it. He'll need/want to recharge at work. Per our guarantee, he'll have six weeks to return it for a full refund if it doesn't work for him. So far nobody has returned Stokemonkey.

We've never sold a unit to anybody who doesn't ride, and generally prefer to ride, regular bikes; that's not our market.

Buy one then. It'll keep you out of the car and keep you off the bus. I doubt you'll be saving any money with the battery replacement rate, but that doesn't seem like a high priority.

Regarding distances and modes of transportation: From experience many, many years ago, and current riding, I've always figured that 10 miles each way is the maximum effective (read:distance/time) commute by bicycle. I pesonally have no desire to spend more than 45 minutes in transit to and from work.

I live 22 miles from my job - by choice. I'm out in the country, use a modified Raleigh Seneca MTB set up for 90% street riding for the four mile trip to the grocery store, post office, whatever else in the center of my small town. For daily use into Richmond, I'm on a motorcycle (check the header, it'll give you a clue) - if I've got one of the big bikes, I'm talking 36-48mpg, taking out the old Honda Super 90 is 100mpg, but I'm limited to back roads, and it ain't all the comfortable.

From the distance the original poster is talking, I'd seriously suggest an 80cc or so scooter, something big enough to need a motorcycle license (those 50cc scooters are a waste over a bicycle, unless you're talking more than 10 miles), because it's got enough top speed that you're not going to get run over by usual traffic.

Yeah, it's not a bicycle. Sorry, while a bicycle is a perfect answer to a lot of situations, it's certainly not the answer to everything.

Motor free requires alot time as you have mentioned. Sounds like your on your way and enjoy it. However that is why so many carfree people live in that downtown or vicinity your trying to avoid. I myself want a simpler life not harder. I would stay the same with the bus/bike option. Do a little each day get your self ready.

Or get a motorcycle save your time and money.

I am putting together a retrofit wheel motor system. 36 volt 600watt 26inch front wheel drive.
the motor and battery are the most expensive things in the system. I bought most of the parts
from NYcewheels and ebay. Should have about 350$ in the system.
George

Quotes from the Stokemonkey site.

"Top speed can exceed 30 MPH on level ground, and 20 MPH up modest hills..."

"...and enables you to haul adult passengers up grades exceeding 30% — the steepest streets in the world."

"Stokemonkey is generally most useful for trips up to 50 miles between recharges."

I read somewhere that on a fifty mile ride only the fittest of cyclists would be able to keep up.

Personally I like the idea of http://www.revopower.com (http://www.revopower.com/), however if you're talking about living without cars, it's really on the line.

I could see it being used by someone starting out, who wants to make sure they don't get tired out and stranded, or by someone who usually has no problem arriving on time, but occasionally needs that boost of speed without getting themselves sweaty, but for living carfree, i'd say it only counts if you only use it as a backup.

And it's still a heck of a lot better for everyone than anything else.

Personally I like the idea of http://www.revopower.com (http://www.revopower.com/), however if you're talking about living without cars, it's really on the line.

I could see it being used by someone starting out, who wants to make sure they don't get tired out and stranded, or by someone who usually has no problem arriving on time, but occasionally needs that boost of speed without getting themselves sweaty, but for living carfree, i'd say it only counts if you only use it as a backup.

And it's still a heck of a lot better for everyone than anything else.


Really? You're going to spin 12 extra pounds, IN A WHEEL, just in case you need it? I'd just buy a moped and be done with it.

Really? You're going to spin 12 extra pounds, IN A WHEEL, just in case you need it? I'd just buy a moped and be done with it.
Personally, no, but if I were concerned about becoming stranded I see no problem in having it as a backup.