Advocacy & Safety - Scooters in bike lanes?

So I was on a training ride today. I stopped at a red light, it turns green and this scooter zips by me on my right. I clipped in and started to ride, then something got to me. I caught up to the scooter on this slight incline and yelled at him to "Get the F*k off the bike lane." He replied something, but because of the wind and his full motorcycle helmet I had hard time hearing. He accelerated and I backed off. I caught up to him again on a red light, and repeated my polite statement. His response was that it is legal for scooters to be in bike lanes. This got me thinking was he right and I was a jack ass, or was I on the right. My computer max speed registered at 33.5 I am guessing he was going around 30mph up that incline since I caught up to him. Which to me indicates he should have been riding on the road.

hell no it isn't. Scooters of any caliber require a class m1 or m2 license, and as such are basically under the same guidelines as a motorcycle, or a car for that matter. I'm not sure what the deal is with Mopeds, though. They have...pedals on them...and engines...

That said, I've had to use the edge of lanes to lane split in congested traffic on my motorcycle, but I generally use it for passing only--never to drive in it. Imagine being doored at speeds in excess of 30mph, much less any speds.

I am not completely sure what the laws are and even if I did, they probably change with regards to location.

It is a bit of a hairy topic, because where would you fit things such as electric bikes, where would you draw the line? I'd probably say that anything you need a license to drive should be in the normal traffic lanes. They are just not predictable enough to be anywhere else. Once while driving in my car there was a scooter driving on the strip beside the road (this road had a strip only a little narrower than a real lane, and the road is two lanes each way). You could tell the scooter was quite gutless, probably about 50cc and was travelling at about 10km/h below the speed limit. Still, he was weaving a bit so I didn't know whether to overtake him or not. I ended up getting as far away from him as possible (into the far lane) to overtake just in case something happened to hurt both of us.

Electric bikes legal in bike lanes in Texas... but these are quite limited devices. 25 MPH max, no multi-gear transmission. Definitely not scooters.

A lot of "scooters" are considered mopeds. Here in SC they run a tag that says moped on them so you can tell the difference.:p I don't know about the bike lane scenario or the laws in CA. But in NC/SC a moped is generally defined as having an engine under 50cc with top speed limited to 25-30mph. You have to be 16 to operate and must wear a motorcycle helmet (at least in NC not sure about SC) I have had Mobylette and Vespa Ciao mopeds in the past, they were the ones with pedals and my Vespa was good for around 40mph...had to be careful where I rode it that fast didn't want a ticket:D Apparently the pedal requirement got dropped somewhere along the way. I also suspect we are going to be seeing a lot more of them as time goes on.

Aaron:)

Why did you care? If he was going slower than you, pass him on the left and don't worry about it. If he was going faster than you, you don't have much to worry about either. If the lane was just a wide outside lane with no bike lane stripe, would you have cared that he was riding off to the right?

Why did you care? If he was going slower than you, pass him on the left and don't worry about it. If he was going faster than you, you don't have much to worry about either. If the lane was just a wide outside lane with no bike lane stripe, would you have cared that he was riding off to the right?

Agreed. Pointless turf wars are one of the undesirable side effects of vehicle-type segregation markings.

I ride a Yamaha Morpheos into work everyday and no, they are not allowed in the bike lane. I have seen two do that here and I yelled at them to get off the lane that it was for bicycles.

If a scooter was allowed in a bike lane, it would be called a bike.

On a related note, I have been seeing scooters (they are very populat here) locked to bike ring-posts as well and, while I haven't spoken to any scooter owners yet, I know it's not permitted to park a motor vehicle on a sidewalk or use locking rings intended for bicycles, especially when the city has granted them free parking in all standard street parking spaces.

Who cares? As long as they drive safely and courteously (i.e. not close passing you) how in any way does it affect you?
Al

steve, your characterization of segregated 'turf wars' is sooo over the top.

fear monger. what a joke. devious in its misleading intent.

Who cares? As long as they drive safely and courteously (i.e. not close passing you) how in any way does it affect you?
Al

So you wouldn't mind a 400 pound scooter in the bike lane?

So you wouldn't mind a 400 pound scooter in the bike lane?
No. Why would I?
Al

As long as they don't buzz me, I'm cool.

Hmm, I wonder how many watts they pull.

As long as they don't buzz me, I'm cool.

Hmm, I wonder how many watts they pull.

If my math is correct:rolleyes:(subject to correction) about 1500 (746 watts to the Hp and average moped is 2hp) but they aren't as efficient as a bicycle:D in watts per btu consumed;)

Aaron:)

When you say a "scooter" do you mean like a Vespa? Or like one of those Razors with a chainsaw engine?

When you say a "scooter" do you mean like a Vespa? Or like one of those Razors with a chainsaw engine?

It has a 250 cc engine with a timing of 0-55 in 5 seconds. It weighs in at 408 pounds.

According to the California Vehicle Code, it appears to be legal and in fact required, at least for electric Razor-type scooters: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21229.htm

Here is the definition (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21220_5.htm), which points you to this section (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d01/vc407_5.htm). This would not appear to cover an internal-combustion powered scooter (picture a Vespa or a Honda 150cc bike).

When you say a "scooter" do you mean like a Vespa? Or like one of those Razors with a chainsaw engine?
No something like this: http://www.kymco.co.uk/images/scooters/super9s-tmb.jpg

Oh, that definitely does not belong in the bike lane.

As long as they don't buzz me, I'm cool.

Hmm, I wonder how many watts they pull.
The problem he did buz me. Yes the lane is wide enough to ride side by side, but not enough for blowing past someone on the right going 10-15mph faster. In my case at least over 20 since I just started moving when light turned green. Who knows what kind of handling skills he has, I don't want to be knocked over in to traffic by some dumbass on a scooter.
Why was I anoyed? I think it partially because when I ride on the streets I have to deal with the usual crap from cars, and now I have to deal with crap from someone ridiing a freaken scooter in a bike lane. That one lane that "suppose" to be for us cyclists. P.S. Please don't start another pointless VC thread. Partially it is because he passed me, and I see if I could catch him. :)

and yelled at him to "Get the F*k off the bike lane." .

Even if he was breaking the law, you are 100% wrong. It's people like you who cause people like me to possibly get harmed while riding a bicycle.

Try being a bit more polite next time.

And any 250cc scooter in the United States is considered to be a motorcycle in all 50 states.

Even if he was breaking the law, you are 100% wrong. It's people like you who cause people like me to possibly get harmed while riding a bicycle.

Try being a bit more polite next time.

And any 250cc scooter in the United States is considered to be a motorcycle in all 50 states.
Oh yes you are right, little poor me is the reason people do stupid and violent stuff. :rolleyes:

No something like this: http://www.kymco.co.uk/images/scooters/super9s-tmb.jpg

That could fall under the moped regulations depending on the size of motor and top speed...

Aaron:)

Good for you for catching the guy. Next time, you might give him the Team Cinzano treatment.

Oh yes you are right, little poor me is the reason people do stupid and violent stuff. :rolleyes:

Actually it is a reason. It's people like you who give bicycling a poor reputation outside the bicycling community. F-bombs and middle fingers which lead to road rage... yea, and you wonder why you don't respect on the road. It takes 100 good bicyclists to make up for the one bad one.

If you or anyone else is this frustrated or full of hatred when riding a bike where you have to act like that, I rather see you walking or taking a cab.

So you wouldn't mind a 400 pound scooter in the bike lane?

I don't mind cars in the bike lane... as long as they behave. They should signal, merge, and get on with whatever they are doing.

Now parking in the BL is a different situation all together.

You know, perhaps the solution to all this is a 15 mph speed limit in bike lanes, and allow anyone traveling that speed or slower in the bike lane, and not allowing anyone moving faster than 15 to be in it. Maybe they should be called something other than bike lanes, like slow lanes (I thought of slane for short, but that has an unfortunate homophone).

Maybe we need a new thread to brainstorm for alternative names?

So I was on a training ride today. I stopped at a red light, it turns green and this scooter zips by me on my right. ... To me, the close-gapped passing on the outside is the real problem, rather than the scooter's use of the bike lane.

To me, the close-gapped passing on the outside is the real problem, rather than the scooter's use of the bike lane.

I agree. This close, on-the-right passing was not mentioned in the original post, hence my response. General use of bike lane by scooter, I couldn't care less. Anyone passing me on the right or too close at a given speed differential, I'm going to be irritated.

I would say that every mamy pamby cyclist who does not stand up for themselves whether it be to selfish, already road raged drivers, tragically uncool 'scooterists', or even cops who don't know traffic law, are more of a danger than frustrated bikers who express their displeasure. You show weakness, these people will marginalize you even more that you are now.

What is there to stand up to? How is one being marginalized?

Actually I think one is more marginalized by supporting the thinking that the bike lane is your special space to defend instead of the thinking that the entire road is yours to share.

Al

I am talking about NYC streets, not even bike lanes. If you let motorists do as they please, then they will do as they please. I do not advocate loud cursing verbal exchanges, but they happen. I politely ask people to not endanger me. Quite often they don't even realize that walking on a bike path 3 abreast is rude/dangerous. Asking drivers not to drive like selfish idiots or not park in bike lanes etc. In NYC there is a bike-ped/car/cop war going on, we certainly are marginalized.

I fully agree with your 2nd sentance Noise.

Good for you for catching the guy. Next time, you might give him the Team Cinzano treatment.
I don't follow racing all that close. :o Care to elaborate?

Actually it is a reason. It's people like you who give bicycling a poor reputation outside the bicycling community. F-bombs and middle fingers which lead to road rage... yea, and you wonder why you don't respect on the road. It takes 100 good bicyclists to make up for the one bad one.

If you or anyone else is this frustrated or full of hatred when riding a bike where you have to act like that, I rather see you walking or taking a cab.
Damn it takes 100 cyclists to offset me? I am a BADASS! I mean I knew my badness was worth two MAYBE three cyclists, but a hundred! :eek:
I am not full of hatred. Where did you get that crazy idea? Why should I walk just because you have this delusion that anything I do makes ANY difference on general attitude towards cyclists.

You know, perhaps the solution to all this is a 15 mph speed limit in bike lanes, and allow anyone traveling that speed or slower in the bike lane, and not allowing anyone moving faster than 15 to be in it. Maybe they should be called something other than bike lanes, like slow lanes (I thought of slane for short, but that has an unfortunate homophone).

Maybe we need a new thread to brainstorm for alternative names?
But then I won't be able to ride in them! :cry:

Team Cinzano treatment is a reference to Breaking Away. The Italians put a frame pump into Dave's front spokes, sending cartwheeling into the ditch.

I am talking about NYC streets, not even bike lanes. If you let motorists do as they please, then they will do as they please. I do not advocate loud cursing verbal exchanges, but they happen. I politely ask people to not endanger me. Quite often they don't even realize that walking on a bike path 3 abreast is rude/dangerous. Asking drivers not to drive like selfish idiots or not park in bike lanes etc. In NYC there is a bike-ped/car/cop war going on, we certainly are marginalized.

I fully agree with your 2nd sentance Noise.

NYC,

I understand there is a bike/ped/cop war in NYC and frankly, all three sides are 100% wrong in this. The part you can control is how the bicyclist acts. The bike couriers have a bad rep in NYC and it is rightfully earned. Sad to say, this does reflect on all bicyclist.

I won't even get into the Critical Mass argument.

You can do your part by obeying all the traffic laws and promoting safetys.

Politely asking people is fine, but using profanities and banging on car doors out of frustration simply is bad bicycling. There are too many haters riding bicycles who do just that. And with all the carjackings, going up to someone's car and banging on it isn't the wise thing to do.

Close calls do happen with cars but it's part of the chances we take when we cycle. Yea, there are a few jerks who yell at me while I ride. And I totally ignore them because giving them a reaction is exactly what they want. But I don't label all car drivers bad based on a behaviors of a few. In fact, the vast majority of car riders always gives me plenty of room.

The only case I can remember that was a major problem over the past 10 years was an incident in Austin Texas during my tour in 2005 where there was road construction, no shoulder, thin lanes, and jersey walls and I had to take the whole lane for about two miles... pissing off countless cars. I had the legal right to do that though so I don't feel bad about it. But man... were they pissed.....

Cheers and stay safe.

Team Cinzano treatment is a reference to Breaking Away. The Italians put a frame pump into Dave's front spokes, sending cartwheeling into the ditch.
Ah I see. I would never do that. Then I would have to replace my pump, such a hastle.

But then I won't be able to ride in them! :cry:
If you're moving faster than 15, you shouldn't be in the bike lane if it's adjacent to a curb or in the door zone, as most bike lanes are.

If there was no bike lane, would you ride a motorcycle or drive a car at 15+ mph so close to the edge with only a couple of feet of shy space? I hope note. There is no magic in the BL stripe that somehow makes it a good idea to do so on a bike.

If you're moving faster than 15, you shouldn't be in the bike lane if it's adjacent to a curb or in the door zone, as most bike lanes are.

The door zone is one thing, and specific conditions prevail, but in general, I'm quite comfortable riding ~20 MPH two feet from the curb/edge.

You do not see how I feel you are letting bad drivers off the hook? Scooters or drivers that buzz you in a wide outside lane or bike lane?
Please tell me GPS how the bikers in NYC are "100% wrong". Hearing that all sides of the Bike/ped/cop/car war are 100% wrong is interesting, I assume that makes a certain someone in Leesville NC, a lot MORE right. I am not really sure if you are comparing Leesville with NYC, but I have never heard of it, so I can't comment on your apparent utopia. Also, is the NYC that you speak of, with the bike couriers who are giving other cyclists a bad name, is that some time warp reference to the Mayor Koch days? In short, I am not really sure what you are talking about when you give advice on how to ride here, or where you think bad blood between drivers and cyclists comes from.

I bang on hoods and smack windows and flip mirrors, because the driver was about to maim me in some flippant yet horrendous way. I am not sure about car-jacking, I know they happen, but I have heard about quite a few more cyclist deaths at the hands of drivers, drunk or in a hurry, or just plain old 'didn't see them'. Is it "Bad bicycling" to let a selfish driver know that 1. you are next to them when their actions do not seem to show it. And 2. Alert them to you fear or panic that they are going to harm you.
To be truthful, I willfully break certain traffic laws here: I run lights, because it is 100% safer than waiting at a light as if I were some 250hp, 3 ton cage, that is going to drag race all the other idiots 3 blocks to the next red light. Instead, I run the light after careful checking for legal pedestrians and traffic that has the right of way. I don't ride on sidewalks, I dont ride the wrong way, I dont do anything that directly threatens other users of the roadway. If I do something stupid, I go and apologize, crazy right? I know all cyclists are not angels, that doesn't mean that you should cower in response to cars acting as if you are using THEIR road. I also know that not standing up for your rightful space on the roadway, is going to result in less rights, more injuries, and more deaths.

The door zone is one thing, and specific conditions prevail, but in general, I'm quite comfortable riding ~20 MPH two feet from the curb/edge.
I'm comfortable doing it too. I just think it's taking unnecessary risks, though you can probably get away with it for hundreds if not thousands of miles without incident. 2 feet is not much evasion space, should you need it. It's also not much buffer space from potential hazards suddenly emerging from that side.

What's hard to know is how big a risk it is. How often do you suddenly need more than 2 feet? How often does something pop out suddenly from the right that causes you to need to move left to evade (perhaps right as you are about to be passed by a bus)?

In the motorcycle manual, they talk about the need for lateral buffer space. The higher the speed, the greater the need. That's the point. When stopped at light, you hardly need any lateral buffer space at all... This applies to cyclists just as much as to motorcyclists.

If you're moving faster than 15, you shouldn't be in the bike lane if it's adjacent to a curb or in the door zone, as most bike lanes are.

If there was no bike lane, would you ride a motorcycle or drive a car at 15+ mph so close to the edge with only a couple of feet of shy space? I hope note. There is no magic in the BL stripe that somehow makes it a good idea to do so on a bike.
Apparently my sarcasm was lost on you.
Yes moving faster then 15mph totally entitles me to take a lane in 40-60 mph traffic. :rolleyes: Anyway dude, go away and quit hi-jiking my thread. You don't know how I ride, so quit making generic assumptions.

Apparently my sarcasm was lost on you.
Yes moving faster then 15mph totally entitles me to take a lane in 40-60 mph traffic. :rolleyes: Anyway dude, go away and quit hi-jiking my thread. You don't know how I ride, so quit making generic assumptions.

First, yes, you are entitled to share or even control (if too narrow to be safely shared) the rightmost traffic lane at 15 mph if it is unsafe to travel as close to the edge as a curb bike lane positions you, even if that requires 40-60 mph traffic to slow down and/or change lanes to pass you.

Second, this is not your thread; all threads belong to the community (and ultimately to Joe), not to the one who creates the OP. Besides, I'm not hijacking anything. All this is directly related to the issues you raised in the OP.

Third, I did not make assumptions about how you ride. If you don't believe me, note your inability to identify a single assumption that I made about how you ride.

Fourth, you're not as Umney as you may think, Durak.

So I was on a training ride today. I stopped at a red light, it turns green and this scooter zips by me on my right. I clipped in and started to ride, then something got to me. I caught up to the scooter on this slight incline and yelled at him to "Get the F*k off the bike lane." He replied something, but because of the wind and his full motorcycle helmet I had hard time hearing. He accelerated and I backed off. I caught up to him again on a red light, and repeated my polite statement. His response was that it is legal for scooters to be in bike lanes. This got me thinking was he right and I was a jack ass, or was I on the right. My computer max speed registered at 33.5 I am guessing he was going around 30mph up that incline since I caught up to him. Which to me indicates he should have been riding on the road.

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21229.htm

They're actually SUPPOSED to ride in the bike lanes, unless they can't pass another vehicle in the lane safely. There's no guidance on whether or not they need to pass on the left or right. I couldn't find anything related to motorcycles in bicycle lanes.

Personally, that's not what I'd expect the law to say, and I think that the whole thing is confusing. I'm not sure if I'd be willing to therefore come down on the side of "bicycle lanes are evil" - but they certainly don't seem to help clarify things in this particular case.

ohplease, 21229 applies to "Motorized Scooters", where are 50ccs and under, not the 250 cc "scooters" this thread is about.

First, yes, you are entitled to share or even control (if too narrow to be safely shared) the rightmost traffic lane at 15 mph if it is unsafe to travel as close to the edge as a curb bike lane positions you, even if that requires 40-60 mph traffic to slow down and/or change lanes to pass you.

Second, this is not your thread; all threads belong to the community (and ultimately to Joe), not to the one who creates the OP. Besides, I'm not hijacking anything. All this is directly related to the issues you raised in the OP.

Third, I did not make assumptions about how you ride. If you don't believe me, note your inability to identify a single assumption that I made about how you ride.

Fourth, you're not as Umney as you may think, Durak.
First what part of go away didn't you get?
Second, yeah it is my thread. If you want to continue your diatribe go start your own thread. God knows you started enough of them, on exact same topic. You are like a broken record.
Third, fine you just made generalised statements that don't really apply to me, and don't really have anything to do with the purpose of this thread.
Fourth, I see you felt the need to come down to personal insults. What I hit a nerve their sparky?

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21229.htm

They're actually SUPPOSED to ride in the bike lanes, unless they can't pass another vehicle in the lane safely. There's no guidance on whether or not they need to pass on the left or right. I couldn't find anything related to motorcycles in bicycle lanes.

Personally, that's not what I'd expect the law to say, and I think that the whole thing is confusing. I'm not sure if I'd be willing to therefore come down on the side of "bicycle lanes are evil" - but they certainly don't seem to help clarify things in this particular case.
Hello thanks for posting this, but the "scooter" I was talking about does not fall under the definition of "motorized scooter".
Here is the DMV definition of "motorized scooter": http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d01/vc407_5.htm
I also found this: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22411.htm. Just found it funny.

First what part of go away didn't you get?


No, no! A&S was totally boring in November and early December. Nothing but rational discussions by knowlegable people.

Let the flame wars begin!

Speedo