Bicycle Mechanics - Getting Rid of Lawyer Lips

I am about tired of having to half unscrew the "acorn" on my quick release skewers to actually remove the front wheel from my bike. The only thing quick about the whole affair is that I don't have to get out a wrench.

I've heard about people filing off the lawyer lips--those tabs on the end of the dropouts that keep the wheel from coming off unless the QR is half unscrewed. But can you file them off on a carbon fork?

Any suggesions would be appreciated.

My suggestion is to check out

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/index.html

if you have disc brakes.

Then if you still want to file them off, make sure you have good medical insurance.

Al

But I don't have disc brakes. I'm riding a road bike with Shimano wheels and caliper brakes. No disc at all. With the reduced clamping force of rim brakes and the different direction I don't think I have much risk of a wheel being ejected.

File them off. Don't let paranoia ruin your experience. I've been without lawyer's lips on all my bikes for 16 years.

A course file is probably the best way to go about it with aluminum dropouts, though I have carefully used an angle grinder before on steel forks. I usually leave the lips just barely proud of the dropout's face (I don't want to even touch the working face).

If you leave the lips on, stop turning the QR nut!! You should hold it in place when you release the cam, then rotate the cam exactly two full turns (or three). Then when you replace the wheel, you hold the nut again, and rotate the same count on the lever side. You'll never have to go trial and error again.

I'd still file them though.

But I don't have disc brakes. I'm riding a road bike with Shimano wheels and caliper brakes. No disc at all. With the reduced clamping force of rim brakes and the different direction I don't think I have much risk of a wheel being ejected.

I agree. But, for me personnally, I'd go to the extra bother of the lips.

Al

One problem with filing off the lips is it will void your warranty. I asked both Easton and Kestrel about removing the lips and they both told me they would refuse to honor the warranty if I did.

In the past I filed them off several steel and Al forks but, because of the warranty issue, have left them on my carbon forks.

our fit guy at the bike shop, a CAT rated racer, files the lawyer lips. during one race, his wheel fell off.multiple times, ensuring both a poor finish time and a concussion.

do it at your own risk. maybe you could switch over to a bolt on axle ;) with your carbon fork.

our fit guy at the bike shop, a CAT rated racer, files the lawyer lips. during one race, his wheel fell off.multiple times, ensuring both a poor finish time and a concussion.
do it at your own risk. maybe you could switch over to a bolt on axle ;) with your carbon fork.
So how did this guy's quick-release come loose in a race, pray tell?
Look, there are always stories like this, but if you tighten your quick-release when putting the wheel on the bike, you have nothing to worry about (unless the skewer itself snaps, in which case it won't matter that you have lawyer lips anyway). I've ridden thousands of miles without lawyer lips, and so have lots of other people here. Lawyer lips are an extra line of defense against user error, I guess.

I've never seen lawyer tabs on rear dropouts, and rear wheels seem to stay put just fine, despite all the torque and gear shifting and weight shifting going on back there. Odd, isn't it?

I've never seen lawyer tabs on rear dropouts, and rear wheels seem to stay put just fine, despite all the torque and gear shifting and weight shifting going on back there. Odd, isn't it?
I'm totally in agreement. Although a rear wheel coming out ain't nearly as likely to make you crash as a front wheel coming out. But still, it never happens.

I think the lawyer tabs for the front wheel are more of a barrier against user error. They remind you to tighten the Q/R carefully. And you remove the front wheel a lot more than the rear.

Oh, and who do we have to thank for lawyer tabs? None other than consumer advocate Ralph Nader. Not saying that it wasn't well-intentioned, but there's plenty of lawsuit-driven manufacturers-CYA laws, or manufacturing habits, and lawyer tabs on the fork is certainly one of them.

Smart bike manufacturers wouldn't be upset if you filed them off, because they would not be liable for any subsequent injuries. One of the hot rod manufacturers leaves a big, ugly weld on their replacement axles for early ford cars. All the guys grind them smooth before having the axle chromed or powder coated. The maker loves it, no more liability. Of course, in the spirit of full disclosure, I should tell you I'm a former lawyer. So don't be gettin rid of my lips, foo. bk

I'm totally in agreement. Although a rear wheel coming out ain't nearly as likely to make you crash as a front wheel coming out. But still, it never happens.

I think the lawyer tabs for the front wheel are more of a barrier against user error. They remind you to tighten the Q/R carefully. And you remove the front wheel a lot more than the rear.

Oh, and who do we have to thank for lawyer tabs? None other than consumer advocate Ralph Nader. Not saying that it wasn't well-intentioned, but there's plenty of lawsuit-driven manufacturers-CYA laws, or manufacturing habits, and lawyer tabs on the fork is certainly one of them.
I hit a nasty pothole the other day which knocked my rear wheel out of the dropout.....it does happen.....

One other minor advantage of the lawyer lips is the increased grip/safety in bike holders on tops of cars or inside them that rely on holding the front fork in a clamp with the wheel removed. Should the clamp not be quite tight enough the bike is much less likely to fall over or off. I got to buy a nice CF fork for my Teledyne because the bike fell over in the back of the van and broke off a fork tip. Despite grumbles and curses over the extra mess of tightening untightening the QR nut, a bit of thought over the hassle of buying a new fork quells the muttering.

The total time spent removing the "lips" probably equals a couple of hundred delays at removal if you leave them on. I estimate it takes no more than 2-3 seconds extra to unscrew that extra little bit.

If you're in such a hurry that two seconds is too long for you, then I seriously suggest you take a chill pill! That kind of elevated stress is unhealthy.

The total time spent removing the "lips" probably equals a couple of hundred delays at removal if you leave them on. I estimate it takes no more than 2-3 seconds extra to unscrew that extra little bit.

If you're in such a hurry that two seconds is too long for you, then I seriously suggest you take a chill pill! That kind of elevated stress is unhealthy.

That's why I used an angle grinder on my steel forks. It took about 30 seconds total :D

Even using a file only takes five minutes. Plus a couple of minutes for paint touchup using clear nail polish.

Oh, and who do we have to thank for lawyer tabs? None other than consumer advocate Ralph Nader. Not saying that it wasn't well-intentioned, but there's plenty of lawsuit-driven manufacturers-CYA laws, or manufacturing habits, and lawyer tabs on the fork is certainly one of them.

It might be a Nader-inspired thing, but it's not a law. My 2001 Ritchey Road logic came with steel forks and no tabs. It brought a tear to my eye when I pulled them out of the box. TR's like WTF? Tabs? Bah! My hero.

But can you file them off on a carbon fork?
I sure as hell wouldn't!

But can you file them off on a carbon fork?

I sure as hell wouldn't!
Yes, you can file them off a carbon fork. If the fork dropouts were themselves made of carbon fiber, this would be a stupid idea. But carbon forks nearly always have aluminum dropouts, and these are easy and safe to file down.


It might be a Nader-inspired thing, but it's not a law. My 2001 Ritchey Road logic came with steel forks and no tabs. It brought a tear to my eye when I pulled them out of the box. TR's like WTF? Tabs? Bah! My hero.
I know it's not a law, but I don't know the ins and outs of liability issues related to fork tabs. My guess is that if someone loses their front wheel from a fork that was manufacturered without tabs (of course because of the fault of the user) courts are more likely to award the user money from the manufacturer than if the fork had been built with lawyer tabs.
So we'll mostly see high-end small-market forks (like Ritchey steel forks) without tabs.

My Raleigh (http://www.unc.edu/~cupery/pics/bikes/Raleigh_aluminum/) aluminum bike has a beautiful lugged Reynolds 753 fork with no tabs. My 1984 Centurion Comp TA (http://www.unc.edu/~cupery/pics/bikes/Centurion_Comp_TA_repainted) also has a beautiful fork, with integrated investment-cast crown, with no lawyer tabs. Centurion had "wised up" by 1987; my Ironman Expert (http://www.unc.edu/~cupery/pics/bikes/Centurion_Ironman_Expert) had lawyer tabs until I filed them off.

I used to file off the lips on all my bikes for many years, not really for the minor inconvinience of wheel removal (especially from bike racks), but mainly for the cool factor. The cool factor has moved on to other areas of my bikes over the years (like chopping brooks saddles, for one) so I no longer bother filing them off. Besides, I never raced so quick wheel removal has never been that important for me.

As for disc brakes and lawyer tabs, most newer disc specific forks have somewhat forward facing dropouts so filing tabs off of these shouldn't make any difference.

Yes, you can file them off a carbon fork. If the fork dropouts were themselves made of carbon fiber, this would be a stupid idea. But carbon forks nearly always have aluminum dropouts, and these are easy and safe to file down.

I knew they had aluminum or steel that the skewer bit into, but I wasn't sure about the depth of the metal. I guess my question was whether the drop outs are merely faced with metal or whether they are completely metal.

That's why I used an angle grinder on my steel forks. It took about 30 seconds total :D

I doubt the total time was 30 seconds. Getting the tools out, putting the bike up on a stand or something, removing the wheel first and replacing it after. Even so, 30 seconds means you have to take the wheel off about 10-15 times until you actually begin to save time...

Seriously though, I really don't understand why people bother. If you have to remove your wheels that often, maybe you should start to think about why you have to do it that often. I don't think I've removed and replaced wheels more than a dozen times total over two years, ~3900 miles and two bikes! And that includes changing from smooth to studded and back several times.

Quick releases have been around for decades. Lawyer lips have been around since some litigious clown broke his face cause he didnt know how to tighten a Q.R. correctly. If you are unsure about the usage of a Q.R. or are worried about warranty then leave em on there. safety is only a concern because people dont use them correctly. I have filed dozens of lips off carbon forks for people and have never had someone come back saying this screwed their forks.

our fit guy at the bike shop, a CAT rated racer, files the lawyer lips. during one race, his wheel fell off.multiple times, ensuring both a poor finish time and a concussion.

"CAT-rated racer" wow! Maybe that's why the TDF guys have to have somebody else tune their bikes.

I'm thinking that he had a problem other than just no "lawyer lips". I wonder if he filed his dropouts too thin so that the axle stuck out just a smige. That'll prevent your QR from clamping the dropout and produce the indicated result.

For the record, "lawyer lips" are only about 15 or so years old. Prior to that time nobody had them and most folks didn't miss them. I keep them on my bikes because it's not a big deal to me but but I doubt filing them off is likely to cause an accident for an enthuiast-level rider either.

I knew they had aluminum or steel that the skewer bit into, but I wasn't sure about the depth of the metal. I guess my question was whether the drop outs are merely faced with metal or whether they are completely metal.
Yeah, the dropouts are all metal, it's not just a coating. Usually glued into the end of the carbon tubing. So you wouldn't need to worry about filing to deep and getting into the carbon.

Yeah, the dropouts are all metal, it's not just a coating. Usually glued into the end of the carbon tubing. So you wouldn't need to worry about filing to deep and getting into the carbon.

When a carbon fork has metal dropouts, like various Kestrel and Profile models, they are all metal and are inserted and bonded into the fork blades. Easton's SL-series forks have totally carbon dropouts with no metal of any kind and they are molded as one piece with the fork blades. That's one of the ways Easton gets their E90-SLX under an advertised (and real, I weighed two of them) 300 grams.

The original permise of the lawyers lips was to protect people who didn't use a qr skewer properly and thought it was a wing-nut. I've met a couple of these types myself, some were even pretty experienced riders, who had never been shown how to use a qr properly.

"CAT-rated racer" wow! Maybe that's why the TDF guys have to have somebody else tune their bikes.

+1 I was thinking the same thing. We should all seek out this "CAT" organization and get rated. Meow!

not being a racer, i thought the acryonym was a UCI- approved acryonym.

i forget if CAT-1 or CAT-5 is highest, but he races at nationals and internationally as well.

I mention it anecdotally. QR failure/ lawyer lip removal can result in crashes, even among experienced riders. All you racer/lightweight freaks that are compelled, on your own or driven by the coolness/be like the rest of the crowd factor, (like the fixer,) to remove lawyer lips.

hey, go for it if it lubes your chain. Frustration over lawyer lips seems to be experienced mostly by gram-shaving, competitive gumbys. Get quicker at changing your tires if you want to see real improvements in your speed at changing a flat.

+1 I was thinking the same thing. We should all seek out this "CAT" organization and get rated. Meow!
That's hilarious!
CAT just stands for the UCI category of how good the racer, I'm also not sure which is highest. I don't think that CAT is an acronym. But is funny to mock the guy who loses his wheel (so long as he's not hurt) anyway.

As for my annoyance with lawyer lips, it's not a weight thing but rather the principle of an annoyance that has no purpose to be there beyond litigious ass-covering. It's probably not worth the time it took for me, but it didn't take me long...

that has no purpose to be there beyond litigious ass-covering.

Well, that's not true. If you have disc brakes, for instance, they're likely life savers. And adding them afterwards is damn hard to do...


Backups are good, too. Would you fly on an airliner that had some of its backup systems removed because the pilot felt "they're only there to protect from stupid lawyers..."? Sure, 99.9999% of all flights will probably be just fine without the backup, but you can't know which flight you're on...

True about disc brakes. But that's a whole different ballgame, and the original purpose of lawyer lips was litigious ass-covering. There's no chance that disc brakes would be used on my 1987 Centurion Ironman, for example. So in my case, filing them off of the Ironman's fork, I was getting rid of something that has no purpose beyond litigious ass-covering.

I understand the usefulness of the tabs, and I have also seen (as HillRider mentions above) a couple of experienced cyclists who didn't know how to operate a quick-release.

CAT is short for USCF (United States Cycling Federation) "Category" with Cat 5 being the entry level and Cat 1 being the top of the amateur category rated heap. Above Cat 1, you get into National Team ranking and eventually to the pro ranks.

BTW, the UCI is the international sanctioning body for bicycle competition. The USCF is the US arm of the UCI.

As noted, many high level riders are strong and skilled athletes but very poor mechanics. That's why teams that have the resources have their own mechanics and don't let their riders work on the bikes.

If you have to remove your wheels that often, maybe you should start to think about why you have to do it that often. I don't think I've removed and replaced wheels more than a dozen times total over two years, ~3900 miles and two bikes!

I ride my bike to work, and lock it up on an indoor rack. Remove the front wheel, place it next to the rear, u-lock everything to the rack. Open and close the QR five times per week.

At the end of the day, the last thing I want to do is fiddle with a QR skewer (or with an extra cable lock). Anything that streamlines my commute is worth it to me. The skewers are called "Quick" and should be just that.

Your point about the time it takes is valid, though - I've probably spent more time reading/writing in this thread than I saved by filing my lawyer tabs (dremel, ten minutes). :)

not being a racer, i thought the acryonym was a UCI- approved acryonym.

Sorry, we were just having a laugh at your expense. CAT is just short for the word "category", not an acronym or anything. You're pretty close actually. Category 1 is the best category without being a professional, and category 5 is a beginner.

Oh, and just to chime in my .02 on the OP, I'm hesitant to alter anything made of carbon fiber, but if the dropouts are made of metal, a mill file or angle grinder works fine. I personally don't care about 2 calculated twists to remove the wheel, but I'm also not racing anymore so the 1/2 second doesn't matter as much.

I don't have them on my 1984 Centurion and I actually would prefer if they were there. I so rarely remove the front wheel, mainly when the tire wears/ages out as front flats happen so infrequently.
I do know how to properly use a QR. I do check it before a ride. But I do forget, don't we all, especially after re-groups or short stops during a club ride, time like this when your bike may be bumped by another while filing up a water bottle.
Al

My Raleigh (http://www.unc.edu/~cupery/pics/bikes/Raleigh_aluminum/IMG_1565--red_bike_front-side.jpg) aluminum bike has a beautiful lugged Reynolds 753 fork with no tabs. My 1984 Centurion Comp TA (http://www.unc.edu/~cupery/pics/bikes/Comp_TA_repainted/IMG_7218--blue_frame_in_stand.jpg) also has a beautiful fork, with integrated investment-cast crown, with no lawyer tabs. Centurion had "wised up" by 1987; my Ironman Expert (http://www.unc.edu/~cupery/pics/bikes/Centurion_Ironman_Expert/IMG_1520--Centurion_pink_bike_900.jpg) has lawyer tabs until I filed them off.

Not to threadjack, but that centurion sure is pretty. I painted my Schwinn premis the same scheme.

I used to file mine off, but haven't recently. I know I won't ever do it again after the experiences I've had with the POS QRs on my wife's bike that had loosened on their own. (yes I replaced them.)

I have to remove my front wheel because I put it on a fork mounted roof rack. 3 days a week or so I put it on and take it off. Plus I'm a little bit like some others on this list. What is the point of a quick release if its not quick? Why not use a bolt on skewer?

As to the extra layer of safety issue, I think we all have to draw the line at how much risk we want to take in life. To be frank, I think I can reasonably control the risks of a QR coming off because it hasn't been properly tightened. That risk doesn't worry me. Now the risk of some touron in an SUV clipping me because he is too busy text messaging or talking on his phone or reading the headlines or whatever--that's a risk I worry about. But I haven't gotten off my bike or the roads yet.

I doubt the total time was 30 seconds. Getting the tools out, putting the bike up on a stand or something, removing the wheel first and replacing it after. Even so, 30 seconds means you have to take the wheel off about 10-15 times until you actually begin to save time...

Seriously though, I really don't understand why people bother. If you have to remove your wheels that often, maybe you should start to think about why you have to do it that often. I don't think I've removed and replaced wheels more than a dozen times total over two years, ~3900 miles and two bikes! And that includes changing from smooth to studded and back several times.

Real men make time to use angle grinders :beer:

...and I'm in the way upper %iles for wheel changing speed

I ride my bike to work, and lock it up on an indoor rack. Remove the front wheel, place it next to the rear, u-lock everything to the rack. Open and close the QR five times per week.


I had no idea people did that. My wheels only come off if I need to replace them or put on new tyres.

I know it's not a law, but I don't know the ins and outs of liability issues related to fork tabs. My guess is that if someone loses their front wheel from a fork that was manufacturered without tabs (of course because of the fault of the user) courts are more likely to award the user money from the manufacturer than if the fork had been built with lawyer tabs.
So we'll mostly see high-end small-market forks (like Ritchey steel forks) without tabs.



I don't like them either but consider that if you file them off and then sell the bike, you could be opening yourself to liability issues if the bone head you sell it to doesn't understand quick releases. I'm not a lawyer but it's something I'd think about before I get out the grinder. Is the extra convenience worth your house?


Something esle worth considering is that the manufacturer may be able to get out from under liability for your fork if something goes wrong and it breaks...like a catastrophic failure of the blade or steer tube...not necessarily related to grinding the dropout. You did modify it after all.
(I do hate the stupid things as much as anyone...really;) )

I don't like them either but consider that if you file them off and then sell the bike, you could be opening yourself to liability issues if the bone head you sell it to doesn't understand quick releases. I'm not a lawyer but it's something I'd think about before I get out the grinder. Is the extra convenience worth your house?


16 years and I've never sold a bike. I ride them into the ground, then they become single speeds :)

16 years and I've never sold a bike. I ride them into the ground, then they become single speeds :)

Some people might want to sell their bikes...I hear there's a booming business over on Ebay;) ...and they might want to consider not removing the nubs. It's best to limit one's liability as much as possible. Being sued is great fun and all but when the judge says, "You have to pay X amount", all the fun goes right out the window;)

our fit guy at the bike shop, a CAT rated racer, files the lawyer lips. during one race, his wheel fell off.multiple times, ensuring both a poor finish time and a concussion.

do it at your own risk. maybe you could switch over to a bolt on axle ;) with your carbon fork.
Not only did his wheel fall off - it fell off multiple times. During one race. Did he get the concussion on the first instance (which may explain how he continued the race still QR-challenged), a latter instance (in which case he's a really lucky guy to lose his front wheel once or twice or ? times before finally getting a concussion), or before the race (which might explain the whole thing)?

Thank god for internet, we would miss on all this action otherwise.

Not only did his wheel fall off - it fell off multiple times. During one race. Did he get the concussion on the first instance (which may explain how he continued the race still QR-challenged), a latter instance (in which case he's a really lucky guy to lose his front wheel once or twice or ? times before finally getting a concussion), or before the race (which might explain the whole thing)?
And the craziest part of it all: this guy apparently worked at a bike shop. As a fit guy, sure. but still it's surprising that he could have this happen to him. In absence of other information, I vote for the concussion before the race.

Bekologist, did this guy know his stuff mechanically?

Meh. My sorrento has huge lawyer lips, I just know that 5 turns is the magic number. Remove the brake noodle, hold the nut, open the cam, spin the lever 'round one two three four five, lift the bike off the wheel, voila. Takes maybe 10 seconds on a bad day to pull my front wheel off.

Sounds like an aweful lot of trouble to save yourself a spin or two of the lever.

You'd have a better time convincing me of the weight savings than the time savings. Your bike, though. I couldn't care less what you do with it.

can't speak for the conditions surrounding the accident. just reporting it as i heard it. I think filing the lips off a fork is pretty over the top. I bet it makes it tough to get the bike on the car though....; what would Maynard Hershon think?

BTW I've got bikes without them, but use a bolt on axle. And I assert, if you're concerned with the time it takes to change a flat, get quicker at changing the tire. Those lawyer lips, they ain't no thang. but then again, I'm not obsessed with competition either.

My suggestion is to check out

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/disk_and_quick_release/index.html

if you have disc brakes.

Then if you still want to file them off, make sure you have good medical insurance.

Al

Seems to me the manufactures overlooked a rather important tidbit in the design and implimentation of disc brakes.


Possible solutions:
Just put the calliper on the front of the fork (RH leg) and be done with it. This will result in a generally upwards force applied to the hub through braking, into the fork ends with no tendency to eject the wheel. Erickson have already adopted this design with their tandems...

can't speak for the conditions surrounding the accident. just reporting it as i heard it. I think filing the lips off a fork is pretty over the top. I bet it makes it tough to get the bike on the car though....; what would Maynard Hershon think?

BTW I've got bikes without them, but use a bolt on axle. And I assert, if you're concerned with the time it takes to change a flat, get quicker at changing the tire. Those lawyer lips, they ain't no thang. but then again, I'm not obsessed with competition either.

Bek, bear in mind that some racers don't actually change the flats, but change whole wheels... in less time than it takes to spin a QR those 3 or 4 turns to compensate for something that "wasn't ever needed" until about 15 years ago.

None of my bikes has ever had "lips" and I have never had a wheel leave.

Anyone try these?
Quick Nuts (http://www.1upusa.com/quicknuts.html)

I have, they are pretty good if you have to remove the wheel a lot