"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Iraqi Cycling Coach Murdered

We all know how tough the situation is in Iraqi. This week the conflict took the life of the Iraqi Olympic Cycling Coach. Details here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061221/ap_on_sp_ol/oly_iraq_coach_killed_1. He had just returned with the Iraqi team from from the Asian games.

How many does that make it now? 695,001?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/11/iraq.deaths/

Iraq had a cycling coach? Iraq has a cycling team? Those, it would seem, are the bigger stories. Somebody getting killed in Iraq is apparently routine.

Botto: who knows. All I can say for sure is that it is a horribly sad mess. It just seems so odd to me that the thugs are targeting athletes and coaches.

It may be odd to target athletes but it certainly not new. The most famous case has to be Munich in 1972. Athletes garner public attention in life and apparently their murder do too.

Very good and accurate point.

Iraq is the new hotbed of olympic cycling. After all, how many terrorists engage in bikebombing?

Sprinting away from violence would get you real fast.

Now granted, I just live in my little sphere where I take care of American wounded once they come back to the US, but this is one thing that just continues to blow my mind. I mean, what is Iraq going to accomplish by killing off Iraqis? Maybe if I understood the history, etc. of the region a bit more it would make sense, but it really is beyond me. So many lives destroyed and so much death on both sides... truly sad.

although a few years old, this is a good article on cycling in iraq and the tour de baghdad. it was written in 2003.

http://www.baghdadbulletin.com/pageArticle.php?article_id=145&cat_id=2

a few highlights:

"But it turns out that cycling is an unexpectedly popular sport, which the ministry of Youth and Sport has on its list for regeneration. "

“Everything got stolen by the looters, including spare parts for the bikes,” said Abbas. “We used to have 40 of these Bianchi (Italian-made) cycles which are worth about $1600 each. We found many of them on sale again at the local black market for $50. They raised the price to $300 when they found out that the bikes had been used by members of the national team, saying ‘This is our share of the oil!’”

“Cycling is my favorite sport and I would like to make a career out of it,” he said. “But this will only happen if I manage to leave Iraq.”
The financial rewards of success here are not enough to sustain a living –– you get about $25 for doing well in the national championships.

Now granted, I just live in my little sphere where I take care of American wounded once they come back to the US, but this is one thing that just continues to blow my mind. I mean, what is Iraq going to accomplish by killing off Iraqis? Maybe if I understood the history, etc. of the region a bit more it would make sense, but it really is beyond me. So many lives destroyed and so much death on both sides... truly sad.

This violence is particular pointless and is more akin to Hatfield vs. McCoys than anything else. The debate about this Hobbesian violence, however, belongs in another part of the forum.

Iraq had a cycling coach? Iraq has a cycling team? Those, it would seem, are the bigger stories. Somebody getting killed in Iraq is apparently routine.
Heres a clip of one of them in action http://youtube.com/watch?v=3L8hO7tD_OI

Heres a clip of one of them in action http://youtube.com/watch?v=3L8hO7tD_OI

:yawn:

Maybe if I understood the history, etc. of the region a bit more it would make sense, but it really is beyond me. So many lives destroyed and so much death on both sides... truly sad.

What's truly sad is that people who got us into this mess didn't understand the history of the region any better than you. If people of this country actually cared about learning how other cultures view us we could avoid much of the senseless loss of life that has taken place over the last 3.5 years. It would be nice if we could elect a President who actually read a book or picked up a newspaper from time to time.

What's truly sad is that people who got us into this mess didn't understand the history of the region any better than you. If people of this country actually cared about learning how other cultures view us we could avoid much of the senseless loss of life that has taken place over the last 3.5 years. It would be nice if we could elect a President who actually read a book or picked up a newspaper from time to time.

This is so exactly right. All of this sectarian violence was 100% predictable and foreseeable, and should have been considered ahead of time.

This is so exactly right. All of this sectarian violence was 100% predictable and foreseeable, and should have been considered ahead of time.
+1 and I'll leave it at that.

What's truly sad is that people who got us into this mess didn't understand the history of the region any better than you. If people of this country actually cared about learning how other cultures view us we could avoid much of the senseless loss of life that has taken place over the last 3.5 years. It would be nice if we could elect a President who actually read a book or picked up a newspaper from time to time.

or used the google on the internets..

or used the google on the internets..

Yes, the information would have arrived through the series of tubes, and then the congressmen could have sent each other internets to discuss it.

They are targeting anything deemed Western, as well as education. Schools/teachers are a very big target there.

As a military brat I don't have a tremendous amount of sympathy for anyone who joined the Reserves post-Desert Storm thinking it was just 'free money'. You had to know that bill was coming due someday.

As a military brat I don't have a tremendous amount of sympathy for anyone who joined the Reserves post-Desert Storm thinking it was just 'free money'. You had to know that bill was coming due someday.

yeah, but they probably didn't expect to see their buddy's killed and maimed because a chickenhawk from Connecticut, who claims to be from Texas, didn't know any better.

Iraq had a cycling coach? Iraq has a cycling team? Those, it would seem, are the bigger stories. Somebody getting killed in Iraq is apparently routine.

Now an Iraqui Roadie - THAT would be one tough sonofabich cyclist.

I think this statement coincides with almost everything that happens in the world "$h!t Happens"

I think this statement coincides with almost everything that happens in the world "$h!t Happens"

maybe you should go back to the little kids table in road cycling? :rolleyes:

I think this statement coincides with almost everything that happens in the world "$h!t Happens"

Perhaps if the equivelent percentage of Americans were killed you'd have a different perspective? Given the poplulation of Iraq (approx 24mil or 10% of the US pop) and the number killed (est 650,000+) you'd think sh#t happens if 6mil Americans were murdered in 3 years?

Rest in peace. I heard about his death this morning, and it really bugged me for some reason. I've seen more dead Iraqis than I care to remember, but this just reminded me how godd*mned senseless it is over there.

"$h!t Happens" is when you drop your toast on the floor and it lands jelly side down.

this is in a whole different ball park.

I think this statement coincides with almost everything that happens in the world "$h!t Happens"

Come and share that with the soldiers who have limbs blown off. I'm sure they'd be happy to discuss your insight with you.

I think this statement coincides with almost everything that happens in the world "$h!t Happens"

Or if you'd feel the same after someone turned your entire country into New Orleans post Katrina.

I think this statement coincides with almost everything that happens in the world "$h!t Happens"

Such as your birth, for instance?

I do believe that this thread has gone horribly astray and into Politics and Religion.

I cannot imagine trying to maintain a national athletic program in a warring nation where participants are murdered. Those are dedicated athletes and should be commended for their efforts.

I could not agree more with this statement. Basically it comes down to them killing people that are different or have different beliefs. These muslim extremist are very similar to Hitler, they are just not as organised.

You mean like a Civil War? So I guess the Confederates were just like Hitler too? The moment you mention Hitler you've lost the argument. Hitler was Hitler the only one close to him is Stalin, maybe Pol Pot. The rest were/are just very bad men.

I do believe that this thread has gone horribly astray and into Politics and Religion.

I cannot imagine trying to maintain a national athletic program in a warring nation where participants are murdered. Those are dedicated athletes and should be commended for their efforts.

Word.

Lets not let this get into P&R territory eh?

I do believe that this thread has gone horribly astray and into Politics and Religion.


At this point in our history, can we truly afford to not discuss these matters? I wonder if that old adage about "politics and mixed company" shouldn't be relaxed a bit as America finally matures as a nation and joins the rest of the world.

If we are not aware, if we do not take an active role in the direction of this country...then we do not deserve the freedoms our forefathers struggled and died for (and that our brothers-at-arms are fighting for today).

Get over it. Unless it's a fierce debate (and who would debate Iraq is not a huge mess?), it's not taboo to mention current events.

(and who would debate Iraq is not a huge mess?)

I can think of one guy.

I think this statement coincides with almost everything that happens in the world "$h!t Happens"

Say that in front of me and you'll get your jaw broken, you little *****. One of my good friends got his throat and stomach ripped out over there. I'll be visiting his grave when I get home for break. I am not against the war in Iraq, nor am I for it, but those who lack sensitivity towards the victims, on all sides, disgust me. The loss of human life is not "***** happens" material.

Grow up.

You mean like a Civil War? So I guess the Confederates were just like Hitler too? The moment you mention Hitler you've lost the argument. Hitler was Hitler the only one close to him is Stalin, maybe Pol Pot. The rest were/are just very bad men.


Hmmm,

Hitler: Killed millions of Jews, falling short of the final solution
Islamic Extremists: Goal to destroy Israel, driving all Jews into the sea

Hitler: Sought world domination
Islamic Extremists: Seeking world domination, and installation of the Caliphate

Hitler: Thought he was the shiznit
Islamic Extremists: Regard Hitler as a great man, and seek to emulate him

Seems to me that foretexas might have a point.

Hitler: Non-military domestic murders -- 2.5 - 6 million (historians differ)
Stalin: Non-military domestic murders/death sentences -- 20-30 million
Mao: Non-military domestic murders/death sentences -- 30-50 million
Pol Pot: Non-military domestic murders/death sentences -- 1.5-2 million
North Vietnamese Re-education Camps: 500k - 1 million

So, as you can see, Hitler was just a middling genocidal murderer, in the grand scheme of things. You might pay special attention to the last line. That was the number of innocent freedom-loving South Vietnamese that were killed by the North Vietnamese, when country-bashing punks like yourself raised such a domestic ruckus that we left that country to the communists. But that's okay -- thirty years later, look how well that country has prospered under communist rule. Iraq will turn out the same, if and when shrill little moonbats like yourself get your way, and abandon Iraq to the extremists.

Diablo dude, there are so many other ridiculous misstatements you've managed to squeeze into your angry little posts (650K Iraqi deaths? Get real. Try a source other than the Daily Koz or Pravda), and your reasoning so bizarre (comparing the Confederates to the insurgents in Iraq) I couldn't possibly find the time to correct them all. I suggest you get an eduction, or maybe even "read a book or pick up a newspaper from time to time". You might even try the "internets" to find a few hard facts. But please, remember, everything you read on the "internets" isn't true.

Now, if you want to try to shout down anybody else on a bike forum with your angry, uninformed views, I suggest you take it to the appropriate forum. Jihad.com would love to have a brother-in-arm like you.

Hmmm,
Pol Pot: Non-military domestic murders/death sentences -- 1.5-2 million


We backed a good one there.



North Vietnamese Re-education Camps: 500k - 1 million


Using the same sources as the 650,000 for Iraq. Noted in most reports as a "crude estimate". The peer reviewed Johns Hopkins of Iraq study put it at 100,000 dead, relief agencies estimate the refugee numbers at close to a million.

Admittedly it's hard to count when there's little or no government.



But that's okay -- thirty years later, look how well that country has prospered under communist rule. Iraq will turn out the same, if and when shrill little moonbats like yourself get your way, and abandon Iraq to the extremists.


6-8% yearly GDP growth over a ten year period, two straight years doubling their exports to the US, economic and political liberalization, currently a member of the WTO, AFTA, and entered into bilateral trade agreement with the US. Low crime rate, improved lifespan and health index...but there I go quoting Pravda (I assume the CIA factbook is a Soviet inspired plot). And no IED's or suicide bombers. They do still have land mines. These things take time.

AkAk, if you're so for this war, I'd suggest you sign up. Because as an Army Vet, I'd like to see you and your name calling ilk get some skin in the game. I suggest, to paraphrase Jack, that you pick up a rifle and do something other than hide behind your keyboard acting tough.

I know a lot of my brethren who have left the service because of what they experienced in Iraq, and what they see as an absolutely inept group of leaders, and a no-win situation. This includes one top notch Cobra pilot. The Army could use you, unless you're one of those folks who can't bird hunt without a friendly fire incident.

Iraq will turn out the same, if and when shrill little moonbats like yourself get your way, and abandon Iraq to the extremists.

Have you been over there to see what your words actually mean, or are you just a Fox News-watching armchair general like most of the tough talkers on the subject?

I mean, with all your wisdom and patriotism, I'm sure you and one or more of your loved ones have put on a uniform and served, right?

Time to take off the Rush Limbaugh brand political blinders and realize that the country has already fallen to extremists.

Hmmm,

Hitler: Killed millions of Jews, falling short of the final solution
Islamic Extremists: Goal to destroy Israel, driving all Jews into the sea

hmmm... The Germans also killed plenty of gypsies and homosexuals in the camps, but i suppose that's not convenient to mention is it? :rolleyes:


Hitler: Sought world domination
Islamic Extremists: Seeking world domination, and installation of the Caliphate

Hitler: Thought he was the shiznit
Islamic Extremists: Regard Hitler as a great man, and seek to emulate him

I'm already beginning to think that we need to change it to "Christian and Islamic Extremists".


Seems to me that foretexas might have a point.

you're losing the plot here.


Hitler: Non-military domestic murders -- 2.5 - 6 million (historians differ)
Stalin: Non-military domestic murders/death sentences -- 20-30 million
Mao: Non-military domestic murders/death sentences -- 30-50 million
Pol Pot: Non-military domestic murders/death sentences -- 1.5-2 million
North Vietnamese Re-education Camps: 500k - 1 million

Bush/Cheney: 665,000 and counting


comparing the Confederates to the insurgents in Iraq

I for one would never do that: I've got too much respect for the insurgents in Iraq.

At this point in our history, can we truly afford to not discuss these matters? I wonder if that old adage about "politics and mixed company" shouldn't be relaxed a bit as America finally matures as a nation and joins the rest of the world.

If we are not aware, if we do not take an active role in the direction of this country...then we do not deserve the freedoms our forefathers struggled and died for (and that our brothers-at-arms are fighting for today).

Get over it. Unless it's a fierce debate (and who would debate Iraq is not a huge mess?), it's not taboo to mention current events.

All I am saying is that there is a time and a place for such debates and this part of the forum is not it. If you truly believe that taking an active role in the direction of this country means arguing Iraq in this sub forum than you are delusional. If you are not mature enough to follow the rules of this public forum then it is most likely a waste of time to debate with you. You seem to believe that your opinion of reality is what is limiting fierce debate rather than people's own self-restraint in this non-P&R forum. Additionally, how much more fierce can it get than people threatening to break other's jaws.

I was sad to learn of this...several of us, former racing buddies and I got together and, through "channels' sent the team money and some components and equipment after we heard of the theft of their bikes.

It's more than a bit disingeneous to blame Hitler only for non-military deaths (by which I presume you mean the Holocaust). Hitler purposefully started the war in Europe with an unprovoked invasion of Poland and that war killed 10s of millions who otherwise would not have died fighting. Hitler must take the blame for that as well.

This does not diminish Stalin or Mao but I wonder why you sought to diminish Hitler's role in history?

You talk as if the Vietnam was winnable. Every review of the war with which I'm familiar concludes that there never was a Republic of S. Vietnam that had the support of its citizens. Without that the only way S. Vietnam would be independent today is if the US was still there.

The situation in Iraq is depressing in the truest sense of the word. I teach with people who had been called into active duty and I prayed for their safe return. Iraq diminishes and imperils the truly necessary effort in Afghanistan and in my more somber moments I feel that we've made a bad situation (Hussein) worse. I mean when 60 people are killed while standing in line to get a day labor job can someone explain how "staying the course" or "finishing the job" are even relevant goals?

To get OT: I truly feel our nation, of which I'm very proud to call myself a citizen has created a situation where a person can't even run a cycling team without getting killed.



:beer:

"We really shouldn't judge the motives of these killers; besides, it wouldn't have happened if the US had not invaded."

--Typical Neo-Liberal, Anti-Judeo/Christian/Western Establishment, Contra-Capitalist, Tradition-Scoffing, Wal-Mart Bashing, Pro Dead Europe/UN/ACLU, Castro-Chevez-Sheehan Loving Moral Relativists

:)

"We really shouldn't judge the motives of these killers; besides, it wouldn't have happened if the US had not invaded."

--Typical Neo-Liberal, Anti-Judeo/Christian/Western Establishment, Contra-Capitalist, Tradition-Scoffing, Wal-Mart Bashing, Pro Dead Europe/UN/ACLU, Castro-Chevez-Sheehan Loving Moral Relativists

:)

Your post has so many stereotypes that it is beyond the means of this thread to even discuss them... al I can do is shake my head...

I agree with the above posters who lamented the cycling coaches' death. Unfortunately, death and destruction rarely chooses its victims fairly. RIP, Mahoud Ahmed Fulayih. In sh'allah the afterlife will be better for you than the reality in Iraq.

Hitler: Thought he was the shiznit
Islamic Extremists: Regard Hitler as a great man, and seek to emulate him


Thank you for this well informed and extremely well spoken description of Adolf Hitler. It appears to me after reading your post that I have read more and certainly more varied accounts of how we got into this mess. For the record I supported this administration going into Afghanistan. Had they stuck to the goal of stopping Islamic Fundamentalist I may still be supporting them. Unfortunately they did not and anyone who lives in the 'real' world ( that of course would discount the entire Bush administration and their mouth piece FOX News) will admit that we are now worse off than before.

Second I'll stand behind what I said, when you try to play the Hitler card you've lost the argument. Saddam is not Hitler, Bin Laden is not Hitler, Hitler was Hitler. Period. End of story. I have many Jewish friends and all of them were offended when right wing pundits continually equated Saddam to Hitler. In their eyes it does nothing but diminish his horrific acts to compare him to anyone.

Now let's look at what foretexas wrote:

I could not agree more with this statement. Basically it comes down to them killing people that are different or have different beliefs. These muslim extremist are very similar to Hitler, they are just not as organised.

He wrote this within the context of what is happening in Iraq. When this happens within a country they call it a civil war. He equates this to being like Hitler. Using his logic then the Confederates would have been just like Hitler too. His logic is flawed, if two factions are killing each other because they have differing beliefs and that makes them just like Hitler...well you can see where I'm going with this...

Have you been over there to see what your words actually mean, or are you just a Fox News-watching armchair general like most of the tough talkers on the subject?

I mean, with all your wisdom and patriotism, I'm sure you and one or more of your loved ones have put on a uniform and served, right?

Time to take off the Rush Limbaugh brand political blinders and realize that the country has already fallen to extremists.

While not agreeing with most of the pontification of akak2000, your mention of Fox/Limbaugh rather smacks of a reply we might expect from the Schumer/Pelosi/Rodham/so-called Revs Jackson and Sharpton/bash-anything-on-the-right crowd, and sounds just as immature. Just because you happen to wear a uniform, Doc (and btw, anyone who wears one has got my respect, period) doesn't mean your views are somehow more correct or sacrosanct than the views of someone who hasn't, nor give you the authority to toss out a cheapshot like that. Are you espousing we all tune in to CNN and Mr. Cooper to hear the gospel truth? No? Perhaps MSNBC and and mr. softball, then? Wake up, dude. They're all jaded/slanted and just as extreme.

It's kinda tough for me to say something like this to you because of the respect I have for most of you and your posts, Doc, but to say that to akak, and then to let a remark like the following slide is rather hypocritical, donchathink? :rolleyes:


I've got too much respect for the insurgents in Iraq

You're usually in finer form than that, bro. :D

*zipping up flamesuit*

While not agreeing with most of the pontification of akak2000, your mention of Fox/Limbaugh rather smacks of a reply we might expect from the Schumer/Pelosi/Rodham/so-called Revs Jackson and Sharpton/bash-anything-on-the-right crowd, and sounds just as immature. Just because you happen to wear a uniform, Doc (and btw, anyone who wears one has got my respect, period) doesn't mean your views are somehow more correct or sacrosanct than the views of someone who hasn't, nor give you the authority to toss out a cheapshot like that. Are you espousing we all tune in to CNN and Mr. Cooper to hear the gospel truth? No? Perhaps MSNBC and and mr. softball, then? Wake up, dude. They're all jaded/slanted and just as extreme.



I really wasn't trying to say that my view was sacrosanct in any way. I just know that my views on war have changed a lot from getting firsthand experience with the human toll of war, and I feel like many in the American public don't appreciate what it really means to "stay the course" or "finish the job." I'm not really recommending a new reporter to anyone, I just think that a great many people talk fast and loose about war when it's not their or their friend's a$$ on the line, and I got that sense from AkAk's post.

/\/\ Fair enough

I love how US foreign policy, by law, must dismiss the interests of other nations.