General Cycling Discussion - Car-free in LA?

I have a question for those of you who live/have lived in the LA area. I was there last weekend visiting friends, and everyone insisted that it is impossible to be car-free there. It looked to me like public transportation was adequate, there were tons of cyclists out, and the weather was great. So, are they correct, or just too car dependent to see the possibilities?

Depends on what part of LA... I live in Orange County... just to the east and a bit south of LA, (Think Disneyland area, I'm about 5 miles from it) and unless you live close to where you work.. it is practically impossible to live car free... the public transportation system is awful... a bus is usually scheduled ever 35 minutes or so, and they NEVER run on time ! The thing with LA is, is that a majority of the jobs are downtown.. but have you wandered around downtown... I would never ever live there... that is why everyone commutes into work everyday... some from all the way up in the desert.. probably a 3 hour drive each way minimum... for me.. that is not worth it... my commute now is about 28 miles each way, from my house in Orange down to San Juan Capistrano... it is about 40 minutes usually... my company is supposed to move close to my house, and maybe give me about a 10 mile commute.. then i will ride for sure...

Now ont he other hand... I went to College up in San Francisco... that city should be the model for all public transportation systems... between the buses, which many are electric (i.e. no exhaust), the trains, and the subway (BART system).. I can get to almost anywhere in the Bay are in no time at all... it is cheap.. mostly reliable, and fairly quick... I lived there for 2 years never needing a car.. I took wither the bus or my bike everywhere I needed to go, and it was great !

Jeff

Yes, there are a lot of cyclists, and yes, the weather is great (except for occasional poor air quality, and it exceeds 100 degrees in the summer). Public transportation is abundate, but not horribly efficient. The train system seems to work well for people traveling more than 30 miles, so long as their destination is downtown Los Angeles. I live in a city that borders Los Angeles. My commute by car to downtown is about 10 miles and 30 minutes. To use public transportation I would have to ride buses controlled by two separate transit authorities, and my commute would be over an hour. You have to remember that the "LA area" stretches from Ventura County south to Orange County, and from the Pacific Ocean east to San Bernardino and Riverside Counties. This area is larger than some northeastern states (and some European countries). Above all, southern California came to life after the advent of the automobile. Things did not have to be close because one could drive to their destination. Like it or not, that is what we are stuck with.

I used to live in LA. Heresy is right, LA is larger than the state of Rhode Island. No way to live car free especially with a sucky public transportation.

I live in orange county, and I have to agree also. THe public transit is horrible. If you have to use it, it will get you there but not in a timely manner 90% of the time. The train seems to work fairly well but with limited stopps. And like the others said, alot of jobs are in Downtown, or more and more business are going to irvine. Now you have to take into consideration that downtown you really don't want to live down that way in alot of areas.. Orange county is VERY expensive, so alot move farther out to san bernadino county even, whcih could mean a 1-2 hour commute by car. I would say the average person's commute is 1 hour, so not feasible to go carless, and that is just to work.

So, are they correct, or just too car dependent to see the possibilities?

Too car dependent. I too must now put myself in that catagory but when I was single I used to commute on my bike 65 mi/day 5 days a week for work. On weekends I would ride 15 miles to meet up with friends for a mtb ride, to surf or play hockey, then back home.
I would use my bike, rollerblades or skate board to do my shopping.

Granted, this was when I was single and my only responsibility was to stay in shape, pay rent and feed my self. I still try to use my bike as much as possible but now days I have more time consuming responsibilities and even if I could ride like Lance I still would not have enough time in a day to get things done.

Slainte:beer:

I lived in LA- it is very difficult to get by without some kind of motorized vehicle. I lived out at Venice Beach, and I loved it, but to get to Wilshire Blvd (Wilshire and Fairfax, I think...), it was almost a two hour trip by bus. I had to transfer once, and if you missed that bus, it was a good 20 minute wait before the next one comes- and you never know when it will really come.

One day, I waited almost an hour for the bus. When it finally showed, I got to work almost half an hour late. I called the bus company to complain, and they said that the times in the bus schedules were approximations- and that it could be early or late, so just get to the bus stop as soon as possible. Aaaugh! It was a pain in the butt.

I finally broke down and got a nice Vespa. Finally, I got to work within 25- 30 minutes of when I would be starting out. It was completely ridiculous.

As far as getting around by bike, it just may be faster by bike than by bus. I also recall a time when I was trying to get from the Greyhound bus terminal to Redondo Beach, and it took 4 hours- I had to transfer about 4 times, and by the time I got to Redondo Beach, I was so upset, I couldn't even enjoy the first day! It was a nightmare.

Getting from point A to point B in Los Angeles is a nightmare. The urban sprawl is terrible, public transportation is substandard, and the traffic for cars is horrifying to drive through.

I never go to LA without making car reservations. That's my rule of thumb.

Koffee

I've lived in LA pretty much my entire life and can say I've NEVER ridden a bus to get anywhere. I find this interesting in that when ever I travel I take the bus/subway if possibe.

When I was growing up I used my good ole schwin cruiser to get around.

Now that I'm getting into cycling I'm thinking about trying to ride into work one day a week from Redondo to Santa Monica.

With all the traffic around it will be interesting. :)

Originally posted by Koffee Brown
Getting from point A to point B in Los Angeles is a nightmare. The urban sprawl is terrible, public transportation is substandard, and the traffic for cars is horrifying to drive through.


Trying so hard not to engage in LA-bashing (Go Kings!), but in my limited experience down there, Koffee is dead-on correct. My wife was a visiting prof. at USC last year and I spent a couple of weeks down there in the fall. Driving from Hollywood to SC could take as little as 20 minutes or as much as 1 hour and 20 minutes. And the Hollywood Fwy could be jammed at any time of the day.

I took my bike and had the idea that I'd ride out to the ocean. According to the official City of LA bike map that I had, Venice and Blvd is designated as a bike route. Yeah, right. Super dangerous roads for a cyclist.

Except for some trails and maybe PCH, it's not a place to ride a bike, IMO.

I wouldnt in l a either.Lots of good places outside of l a.Im in long beach and streets are ok but we have bikes paths along the tops of the river beds that go everywhere with zero cars.Divided lanes from the beach to the desert.I wouldnt ride in down town san fran either.Go Lakers.

P.S. I still love L.A. Southern California is one of the best places in the world to live.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that people here (myself included) truly love their cars. There is no reason to improve public transportation when there is little/no demand for it.

PS: I forgot to mention that I got some great hill training in riding up to the observatory at Griffith Park.

PPS: I've decided (despite years of NorCal bias) that LA's not such a bad place after all. :)

Originally posted by shokhead
.I wouldnt ride in down town san fran either.Go Lakers.

Heya shok,

I've ridden in downtown SF... it is fun, but super crazy... you haev to have the agility of a cat to jump up on sidewalks, avoid pedestrians, back to the street, avoid the cabs, and all the crazy crowds in Chinatown... it was fun, but i dunno if I'd make a life outta it.

Jeff

Originally posted by caloso
PS:

PPS: I've decided (despite years of NorCal bias) that LA's not such a bad place after all. :)

Heya caloso,

Why is it that NoCal's usually hate the SoCals so much ?? I'm originally from SoCal, and when I went to school in SF, I couldn;t believe all the SoCal bashing going on... it is wacky... anyways... I still love the Bay Area, and would move there in a heartbeat if it wasn't so damned expensive !

Jeff

Originally posted by SipperPhoto
Heya caloso,
Why is it that NoCal's usually hate the SoCals so much ??
Jeff

I think it's pity more than hate. ;)

Seriously, I think the biggest issue is water. It always has been the problem (read the book "Cadillac Desert"), and it'll only get worse.

LA is great, but the traffic sucks big time. I've been here 8 years and am now at a job where I have to commute 20 miles (=45 min to 1 hour) to work. I'm investigating bike routes I could take, just to save some gas and road rage. I love this city. But the traffic is terrible and like everyone said, the public transporation isn't efficient. I'd have to take 2-3 trains/buses to get from my home in mid-city to my job in Pasadena -- probably about 1.5 to 2 hours. Um...no. If I can find a good bike route that's not *too* dangerous (I don't trust the drivers), I'll try to commute 1-2 days/week.

I love no cal.Great places to vacation.I wouldnt mind living past Santa Barbra somewhere but not in san fran.Past there would be great but less good days to bike i would think.Pity,screw water,i buy bottle.

Venice blvd is definately not for cycling, but alot of roads are very good for cycling around here. I live in orange county, and I have no problems with most roads in my area. And within a mile I have the santa ana river which has a path all along it, and if I go opposite direction about 6-7 miles there is another one that starts off at the beach (can't rememer name off-hand). Only thing I do not like atleast where I live there is no real hills :(

I know that path. My mother-in-law is in Irvine and I've taken that path from her house out to Newport. World of difference between OC and LA, wouldn't you agree?

As for hills, doesn't Sand Canyon Road go up some pretty steep hills?

You know you can get a map from the city of L A and O C of all there bike paths.I have one from l a and there is also one on the internet somewhere.

I live near Sand Canyon Road.. about 3 miles... There are a few hills down towards Irvine... but it isn;t too hilly... I live near Jamboree and Chapman in Orange.. near Irvine Park... Jamboree is a loonnnng slow uphill.. from Irvine Blvd. up to the top at Jamboree is about 4.5 miles.. nice long rolly uphill....

Hey Kev,

Where do you live... I rode the SA River Trail 2 weekends ago... went north from the beach to Chapman... Do you ride it often ?

Maybe we need a SoCal meet ?

Jeff

Shokhead, you're right. Googled this site. (http://www.labikepaths.com/). They have a disclaimer that includes this:

"Bike paths" also does not mean those Class II traffic lanes that are nothing more than highway gutters with markings that give cyclists a false sense of security and make them forget to watch out for all the peabrains who open their car doors without looking.

I think they're referring to the aforementioned Venice Boulevard. LOL.

I've lived in the New York City metropolitan area all my life and recently spent a week in downtown LA for some corporate training. What a culture shock! I'm used to taking subways, lightrails and buses all my life and discovered an entire society that lives without such transport.

In downtown LA, there was a subway in the middle of nowhere, travelled a short distance and totally ignored by the masses. The bus route basically travelled along the poorer district of town. Once again. Public transportation is often the vehicle of the poor. If you didn't mind living in downtown LA, commuting is a snap as public transportation was abundant.

I think it's very sad that only a small portion of the population has access to public transportation while the rest must drive. I guess the pain of gridlock traffic is not that great as the masses prefer to use this method of choice for transport. One thing is certain. As the population increases the pain will become much worse as downtown LA cannot have another expressway.

The streets were deserted after 6:00 pm as there was no nightlife at all except the poorer district. This was quite sad and reminded me of Newark. Sidestreets with 5 lanes wide with cars going 45 MPH were quite common. Companies would even subsidize parking even for low paid employees which is something that would never happen in New York as this perk would be considered a luxury.

The expressway during the morning was packed with single passenger cars as no one car pooled and we're talking about an 8 lane highway! The lane for cars with more than 3 passengers (I think) was empty. The bus and lightrail all travelled on the highway and passengers stops were conducted on these freeways. Incredible.

Probably the only thing I miss was the beautiful weather. The beautiful homes and great people can be found everywhere.

Can't you cycle in Hollywood Hills? I seem to remember some hill stuff going on there, although it is the playground of the rich, fameous and super snobby... ;)

What's that place- Topanga Valley... I was there once. I thought there were some hills around there. However, the mind goes. I can't remember for sure.

Koffee

I grew up in LA, moved away in the late 1970's and was carless until age 33, ten years after moving out of there. The bus system used to be reasonable and I have heard good things about the new trains. If I had to move back, I'd do my level best not to drive, at least on the freeways--read Norman Spinrad's story "The National Pastime" to get the gestalt of Los Angeles freeway driving in 2003.

Try this,www.labikepaths.com I go from lakewood off del amo to the path to the beach and back for 20 miles.

Originally posted by heresy
My commute by car to downtown is about 10 miles and 30 minutes.
Interesting. That's about how long it takes me to bike 10 miles.

:D

I live on the edge of westmisnter and graden grove..If you know the area by brookhurst and westminster blvd. If I go over towards irvine I can hit some hills, or up chapman if I go up far enough.. I will admit I really need to work on my hill climing, I suck at it right now. I should just start off over that way, but I hate the idea of driving somewhere to ride my bike.

I have not ridden that path in a while, still getting used to my new work schedule. My plan is to ride down it tomorrow (no work tomorrow) and up along PCH to seal beach, if weather stays nice should be riding it on saturday so if you see someone on a Fuji Cross pulling a trek mt trail bike (tag along type bike) it's me :)

Cool Kev !

Yeah I'm goin to the Bikeshow on Saturday up in LA... maybe do a ride in the afternoon...

You could take the SART down to the beach.. south on PCH, make a left on Jamboree.. cut thro the Newport back bay trail, unless you want to do the first big hill on Jamboree (I usually by-pass it... it is no fun !! :-)) head straight on up Jamboree... left on Chapman and take Chapman to Brookhurst... should be about a 50 mile ride...

Should be good weather this weekend.. upper 60's.. some clouds :-)

Jeff

That sounds like a nice ride Sipper I might go for that.. My longest ride so far has been around 50 miles. I limit how far I like to go from my house during the week since my son is at school (I start work at 1pm tues,wed and thurs) , in case something happens to him about 6 weeks ago I just reached seal beach and got a call from school that he had gotten sick. Main thing that has been bad lately on the weekends is the wind, when by myself it is not bad, but whel pulling my son it makes it alot harder so I shorten the ride. He loves coming wtih me, was one of the best investments I have made.

I'm off to and will go for a morning ride and always ride early on weekends,starting by 6:30 or so.I always head towards the beach so wind is to my back coming home.Its a killer.

Originally posted by SipperPhoto
Heya caloso,
Why is it that NoCal's usually hate the SoCals so much ??
Jeff


I think it's pity more than hate.

i was in portland where there are lots of california transplants - inluding my then grilfriend who was from Sacramento/Bay Area/Chico...

and yes, the NoCals really dog the SoCals... but for me i think i understand as Bay Area and surrounding are really cool --- and i've always thought LA was a dump (i've never been to San Deigo which i've heard is not so bad)

but yeah, i think the water thing seems to kind of make an anology for the issue... but somehow it bleeds over into the attitude and i think NoCals are irritated b/c SoCalers just want to take everything w/o thinking about the consequences --- like ALWAYS driving so that the public transit is underfunded and sucks which makes it so everyone drives and the traffic is horrible and the air quality bad and the quality of life crappy, but no one thinks of that b/c they just want to drive - that's SoCal attitude and NOT NoCal attitude! at least from my experiences with various people...

but not to be too negative, but you guys who say you like LA, __what__ is there to like? other than the weather? sure there are some hills/mountains nearby by when you have to drive through massive traffic to get there, how nice can it be?

P.S. i lived 2 1/2 years in one of the biggest dump cities in the US - Houston TX - where the car is fused to the skin and public transit is even WORSE than LA and polution is BAD... that place sucks and i hope to never go back (been only to the airport on a layover on my way to Austin since leaving in 1997)

As an outsider, can I jump in to say I'm really enjoying this discussion about LA and California. Particularly as I'm sitting here in Edinburgh having commuted in on a bike with Salmon profil guards (fenders) and it's just started to rain! (First for weeks though)

This is why I love this forum.

LA weather is really sweet at least 80% of the year. I truly enjoyed my time in California. It only rained like 6 days out of the two years I was there. Now that's good livin'!

I loved those Santa Ana winds coming in mid-winter to heat things up too. I'd be rollerblading up and down Venice Beach and Malibu every day after work. It was one of the best times I had in my life.

I've been to San Diego too- very spread out, but the transportation system is much better there than LA. It seemed more bike friendly too. The weather was a little more mild at times than LA, but still, it was good weather. I was there over Christmas a couple of years ago, and it was 90 degrees F. I cried when I left to go back to Chicago- I'm not kidding, either.

In San Diego, I'm sure you could ride your bike right into Mexico if you felt like it. It was just a short trolley ride to the border, where you could go across and get all your goods much cheaper than buying it in San Diego.... even your perscription drugs! ;)

I really enjoyed San Diego. If I had my choice, I'd live in San Diego and make runs up to LA. However, for now, I live in Chicago. I always said that if I didn't live in downtown Chicago, I'd only move to Southern California, or I'd live out of the country. That's about it.

Boy am I missing So. Cal right about now.... :(

Koffee

well i guess maybe i'm weird. i love living some place with 4 REAL seasons --- like New England or Munich (although i didn't like some other things about New England like the lack of "real" mountains and the sticky hot summers and the high costs, but the weather was generally ok)

but i grew up in Texas with 2 seasons - hot and really friggin hot! and i don't miss it.

so many people thought i was crazy moving from hot and sunny Texas to rainy Portland. and while i don't love the rain, i think i actually liked the weather in Portland better than Texas... well, that's hard and in April/May the NW is quite depressing as you are hoping for more than 2 days in a row without rain!

munich has 4 real seasons without a super cold/long winter-- ok, the summer could be a little warmer, but for everything except water sports it ain't bad --- and i can still cycle year-round (the snow isn't too deep here)

plus i like a little hardship from the weather. keeps me from getting soft!

We have seasons,60-80.Yeah that sucks for riding.If i hear one more of you guys CRY about snow.Lets see if i want mountains or snow,oh about 2 hour drive.How about the desert,oh about a 2 hour drive.Beach that some of you only see in a movie or vacation,30 minutes.Vegas,4 hours.Top entertainment,anywhere.Best looking women,anywhere.Heck i can get on the bike path and go to the beach and to the desert.Traffic,drive bys,drugs,****,you all have it but we have more,more people to.Earthguakes,hell you guys pay for that ride at disney.Smog,the ocean breeze blows it away.We have everything,good and bad,lots of it.I'll ride in smog anytime over snow.Would i move from here,in a fricken second.

I second that Shokhead !

I do agree that for the most part.. LA is a dump... San Francisco and the bay area is a sweet place to live.. there is always soo much to do, and see, and great places to ride, both on and off road...

But like I said before... living in Orange County is cool with me... never too hot, never too cold... hardly rains... good looking women down at the beaches (don;t tell my wife, she just thinks I go down to surf :-) ) I can get up to LA in about 40 minutes if I need to.. which is very rare.. if I get up there twice a year then I am doin good... I have all I need here....

Not too say that I wouldn't mind living in other parts of the US... NEw Orleans, Pennsylvania, jeez... there are a lot of great places out there... just can't be narrowminded :-)

Jeff

i live in PA Sipper and its a pain to be a surfer here :). have some friends in costa mesa though so i get some decent surf when i visit them. what's your favorite surf spot in OC?

Originally posted by shokhead
screw water,i buy bottle.

Not trying to pick on you shokhead, but I think this is the attitude that tweaks us NorCals. Do you use bottled water to flush the toilet? To wash the car? To water the lawn? Boy, the Arrowhead guy must get tired lugging all those bottles to your house. ;)

Like I said though, there's a lot to like about LA: Griffith Park, Santa Monica, Tommy's, KCRW (which I'm listening to right now), MOCA, and good cheap Mexican food on practically every corner.

Oh, and my lovely wife, who was an original Valley Girl back in the day.

Buy the water from the store,only wash my car once a week and i put stuff on my lawn so i dont have to water it and everything in by house is low water using.I meant how crapy your water tastes.The whole water thing is a bunch of sh$t.Keep it,i can manage.I remember one year the city folks here saved so much te water dept. had to lay people off and raise the cost of our water.Ever since then i could care less.I use it i just dont waste it.Hows the rain in no cal?

Originally posted by shaharidan
i live in PA Sipper and its a pain to be a surfer here :). have some friends in costa mesa though so i get some decent surf when i visit them. what's your favorite surf spot in OC?


I usually surf my 9'6" Longboard.. so I favor mellower spots... I like Doheny, San Onofre... my closest beach is Newport.. and I have surfed near the pier there a number of times... it's a good spot.. but can get pretty crowded... It's nice that i work near the beach, and with a surfwear company, so if surf is good.. I can sneak out a little early and hit it :-)

Where in PA do you live ?? I have a bunch of relatives in and around the Pittsburgh area.. and my wife grew up in State College


Jeff

Originally posted by shokhead
Buy the water from the store,only wash my car once a week and i put stuff on my lawn so i dont have to water it and everything in by house is low water using.I meant how crapy your water tastes.
I use it i just dont waste it.Hows the rain in no cal?

Actually our water is quite delicious. I think it picks up that taste in the Grapevine pumping station. I'm glad you don't waste it. We appreciate it. We need that water to grow the rice for sushi rolls and the prunes for Clif bars. And the feed for the steers that become Tommy's and In-And-Out. (Yum.)

And the rain up here is great. Keeps our hills green and our sky blue. Nicer color scheme than that greyish brown that both the hills and the sky usually gets down there.

(Just pushing your buttons, Shokhead. Remember that those Portland guys hate us both. :eek: )

San Diego and LA are worlds apart. I am one of the few San Diego natives, sadly forced to work in LA (although it could be worse; I could be in San Fran or on the east coast). San Diego is the land of endurance athletes. I have run (or more likely, been passed by) Ironman champs and former marathon world record holders. I am new to cycling, so my knowledge of LA cycling areas is still growing, but it seems San Diego has a lot more to offer a cyclist.

That said, and closer to the original topic, life without a car in San Diego is more difficult than in LA. LA has two main business centers: downtown and west LA (there is also the Valley, but that is a different industry all together). Most of those that primarily work in Orange, Riverside, or San Bernardino Counties live in those counties. San Diego County has about a half dozen main business centers, plus all the tourist attractions. (By the way, visit San Diego, with bike and running shoes in hand, and please spend a lot of money. You will really enjoy yourself, and the City needs the money to continue subsidizing its professional sports teams.)

As I said in my original post, life in southern California = life with a car.

I dont have buttons to push,i like to play.I'm playing the jim rome no-cal vs so-cal LOL We are all in cali getting screwed by thr gov and tax man supporting the low life bricks that live up there and down here.I would like to move to a state free tax.

I dont have buttons to push,i like to play.I'm playing the jim rome no-cal vs so-cal LOL We are all in cali getting screwed by thr gov and tax man supporting the low life bricks that live up there and down here.I would like to move to a state free tax.But if i had to stay i would go to carlsbad,i go every summer for vacation or carmel and hang with C E.

Originally posted by shokhead
I dont have buttons to push,i like to play.I'm playing the jim rome no-cal vs so-cal LOL

Romey is da man !! Damn No-Cal Battery chucks ! :-)

Jeff

It is possible to be car-free in LA, but not very convenient sometimes. The trick is to live close enough to work to commute by bicycle. I was able to accomplish this for a year and a half. But if you want to visit a friend across town at night, you are kind of stuck. Public transportation is a disgrace in LA.

I don't know why people are so devoted to the car culture though. It's great if you enjoy sitting in traffic and inhaling exhaust fumes for hours on end. Not to mention dealing with all the psychotic road ragers out there. Another drawback is if you drive your car for a night on the town, then get drunk, you are stranded. I've had a few friends get arrested for drunk driving because they had no other way of getting home. Before you say they could have called a cab, let me say that on more than one occasion, I have called cabs on a Saturday night and they never showed. It's not like New York where you can just wave one down.

You can bet if there were an efficient alternative like an extensive rail system, I for one would have used it all the time. But I have finally moved away from LA and I'm not looking back.

Its really out of control,people wise here in north mexico,ah i mean L A.

I'm thinking about trying to ride into work one day a week from Redondo to Santa Monica.

Hey Rats, that is an easy, relaxing and fast ride. Just shoot stright up the bike path. At a good pace it takes about 15 minutes.