Classic & Vintage - Why is it bad to use modern shifters on Vintage bikes but it's OK to use clinchers?

I'm still fairly new to the forum but I have noticed that there is a rabid hatred of new tech on our classic rides, such as brake lever shifters and splash tape, but most bikes pictured on this sub-forum are running clinchers (even the early 70's bikes which all came with tubulars).
I'm not trying to start a flame war but is this some kind of double standard? Someone please explain.
BTW, you probably already guessed that I am a fan of glued on tires but even I have a set of clincher wheels for each of my bikes to use in the winter months. Gerry

I dont like them because of the prices for new tires. I just cannot find any cheap tubulars. I have a old tubular disc, but I have not used it yet because I dont want to fork alot of money into that old thing, because it could self destruct.

I'm still fairly new to the forum but I have noticed that there is a rabid hatred of new tech on our classic rides, such as brake lever shifters and splash tape, but most bikes pictured on this sub-forum are running clinchers (even the early 70's bikes which all came with tubulars).
I'm not trying to start a flame war but is this some kind of double standard? Someone please explain.
BTW, you probably already guessed that I am a fan of glued on tires but even I have a set of clincher wheels for each of my bikes to use in the winter months. Gerry

I bought a 1972 Flandria off the show room floor which came equipped with Saminox alloy clinchers. I have a 1978 Paramount, completely stock original, that came equipped with Weinmann clinchers. An early 70's Azuki-clinchers; I could go on.......

So, it's not rabid hatred, just period correct.

Finding quality tubulars can be a problem. But in general it's not hard to find period correct derailleurs or brakes.

Just my opinion.

East Hill

Ha! I ride tubulars on all my bikes that came with them. And a couple that didn't. :)

Just thinking back to the early 70's when I started riding road bikes. As I remember, the guys that I knew and rode with that toured, generally used clinchers. The racer boys trained on clinchers and used tubulars on race day. I rode clinchers as I didn't like fixing flats all the time. This has nothing to do with period correct, but is simply a matter of choice (then and now).
And to the OP, if you want to put brake shifters on that Serotta, go ahead, they really do work a lot better than that old lever stuff;)

Personally, I think it depends on the bike and what you want to do with it. I've got an '83 Schwinn le tour luxe I use as my everyday rider, and when the bike was in its original form, the frame was by far the strong point of the bike. It's now sporting a 3 x 9 drivetrain with bar-end shifters (indexed rear), 700c clinchers (originally 27" clinchers), and aero style brake levers. It's a much better bike now than it was originally, for my needs anyway. But the '72 Raleigh International I just received has a full Campy NR group, a truly classic drivetrain. No way am I going to change that, I think it's one of the strengths of the bike-

None of my bikes came with them, guess they weren't high dollar enough when they were new, lol.,,,,BD

I was going to mention that GC also is the proud owner of a Nishiki Pro!

East Hill

"rabid hatred" might be a bit strong in my case; being a cheap Yankee I look with deep disdain on any component with a high price that is designed with a limited life and no possibility or repair, like Shimano brifters and carbon frames.
Top
(who might be wrong about the carbon frames, but I'm not getting one to find out.....)

So, it's not rabid hatred, just period correct.

Finding quality tubulars can be a problem. But in general it's not hard to find period correct derailleurs or brakes.

Just my opinion.

East Hill

I don't understand the problem in finding quality tubulars, at least on line. Ebay often has pairs of decent tubies (I live on cheap tubulars, BTW!!) often for $30/pair. Gommitalia tires are fine twith proper installation, as are Continental Giro, Vittoria Rally, and Servizio Corse. If you think you need original Vittoria CGs or CX, or Clement Seta or Selle Main, you will have a problem.

As far as fragility, it's a myth IMHO. I weigh 185 and have ridden on our local POS roads at night, which means I blundered into a pothole or two at speed. The tires emerged unscathed, and the wheels just needed a touch with a spoke wrench. The wheels are NOT Clydesdale parts: suppsedly "fragile" Mavic GP3 rims 36 hole on 3x DT butted spokes, with Campy SR low-flange hubs. Lighweight, classic, original, strong, smooth and reliable.

I have had a tubular blow out, but only after the sidewall had been nicked in a hamfisted repair effort, my first tubular repair in 25 years.

If you use Lennard Zinn's intructions for installing and aligning a tubular tire, I don't think you can go wrong.

Road "it's not as big a deal as it sounds!" Fan

In Germany in the '60s, my commuter bike (Raleigh 3spd, can't remember the model, if it had a model) had clinchers. I thought tubulars stopped being de rigeur for bikes about the same time cars stopped using them in the teens or twenties.

Model-T's didn't come with air conditioners, so collectors don't add them now.

The older classic bikes have more character than most of the new ones you see in shops. When one wants a classic look on an older bike, more often than not they will try to make it like it was when originally marketed. Splash tape and brifters aren't popular around here because you didn't see those on the C&V bikes when they were new.

Only high-zoot road racers used them even in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Clinchers were always an option, and if you use them now, the bike looks much the same. If you use brifters, it changes the look. That said, I just do what I like with my bikes, rather than worry what other people think, and I'd suggest everyone do the same. If I wanted a set of brifters, you can bet your bottom I'd have them, and not be in the least interested if people got upset!

When one wants a classic look on an older bike, more often than not they will try to make it like it was when originally marketed. Splash tape and brifters aren't popular around here because you didn't see those on the C&V bikes when they were new.

Good point. We like the classic look. We like steel bikes. It's not that we don't have brifters and whatnot on the newer bikes, but the classic bikes didn't come with brifters. As sammyboy said, though, clinchers don't change the look of the bike. Brifters do.

But it's your bike.

East Hill

I reserve my "rabid" hatred for that rare occasion that I am in a Target and/or Wally World and see bikes there labeled Schwinn. That is just wrong!!

I'm pretty tolerant as to what others equip their bikes with. If ya want brifters, then go for it!

In the 1970s when I was training for the double century and racking up the miles, I had two sets of wheels for my Nishiki: OEM Araya clincher rims and Sunshine high-flange hubs with 27x1-1/8" 85PSI skinwalls, and cotton Clement tubulars with Fiamme yellow label rims and Campag. low-flange hubs. I gave up tubulars when I moved to San Diego in 1981, because of the goathead thorns along Coast Highway 101, and because the best high-performance clinchers had become so good. I am seriously debating whether to try tubulars again when I rebuild Capo #2, for which I have the original tubular rims (which perhaps I should not trust anymore!).

As for gear controls, I am so accustomed to friction that I have no desire to change, and I have yet to find an indexed front shifter which works to my satisfaction, i.e., which permits adequate trimming of the cage position. For commuting in traffic, I admit that taking a hand off the bars can be a challenge, but that's what barcons are for.

I wasn't aware there was a standard.

Only high-zoot road racers used them even in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Clinchers were always an option, and if you use them now, the bike looks much the same. If you use brifters, it changes the look. That said, I just do what I like with my bikes, rather than worry what other people think, and I'd suggest everyone do the same. If I wanted a set of brifters, you can bet your bottom I'd have them, and not be in the least interested if people got upset!

That's not really true. I got into riding lightweights in the early '70s and at that time clinchers were for touring and sewups were for fast riding. There were some people who used clinchers on club rides, but not many. Most of the people who showed up for fast rides were not racers, and certainly not "high-zoot racers," but their Crescents, Peugeots Gitanes, Paramounts and Raleigh Pros came with sewups and that's what they rode. I think this had as much to do with the tire construction masterials as with the tire geometry and method of attachment. Certainly the wire beads added weight, but until the skinwall tires started appearing in the mid-70s, promoted by Schwinn and, later, Specialized, there was a significant difference between the weight and performance of the lightest clinchers and all but the heaviest tubulars. Sewups tended to have lighter tubes than those available for clinchers, as well; often even latex tubes were used.

All that has been largely erased in the intervening years. If you can find silver rims and non-blackwall tires, it can be hard to notice the visual difference between clinchers and sewups; especially when in motion. On the other hand, index shifting totally changes the look of the bike with different derailleurs, brake levers and shifters. There are not that many options for indexing on 126mm rear triangle spacing and virtually nothing for 120mm. Modern indexing requires cassette sprockets, requiring the swap out of freewheel hubs. It all begs the question that, if you are going to change out that much of the original componentry, why not just go with a modern bike?

There are some workable solutions for 6-speed frames involving Suntour Accushift and early Shimano, Campy and others. With the proliferation of stripped frames as a result of eBay profiteering, I can certainly understand someone fitting a '70s or early '80s classic frameset with index shifting, even if this requires respacing from 126mm to 130mm (though I generally like to stay away from spreading a frame). But, if you've got an original, complete bike with 120mm spacing, I promote "Just say NO" to index conversions.

I'm a bit more shocked when I hear of someone tossing good original componentry for "fixie conversions." I would hope that anyone who does this has a labeled box with the original components, but I really doubt it. Most people who are hawking these converted bikes sound like real hacks and yahoos from the ads I've seen. I love riding track bikes, even on the road, but I think some people making these conversions are doing so because they are not mechanics and just don't understand bicycle gearing systems.

I'm a bit more shocked when I hear of someone tossing good original componentry for "fixie conversions." I would hope that anyone who does this has a labeled box with the original components, but I really doubt it. Most people who are hawking these converted bikes sound like real hacks and yahoos from the ads I've seen. I love riding track bikes, even on the road, but I think some people making these conversions are doing so because they are not mechanics and just don't understand bicycle gearing systems.
Rest assured that there are some people who understand bicycle gearing systems, enjoy riding their fixed converted road bikes, and keep the original componentry in its own box. :)

All my NR Campy parts are in a zip-lock bag and labelled in a box in my basement. I am using most of the grouppo except for the downtube shifters and derailleurs obviously. I could reconvert back to a period correct bike in an hour.
My post was not to say that I would put modern shifters on a classic bike but rather why is it OK to use non-period correct tires and esp. rims on a classic when everything else is correct. Granted, I would not trust a pair of Fiamme Yellow or Red labels hoops laced to my straight skewer Campy hubs but some modern rims appear correct.
I submit to you that in order to really feel what your steel steed was designed for, tubulars is a significant part of that feel. There really is a difference! Just my personal opinion folk-not trying to start a flame war.
Gerry

I don't know why you say you wouldn't trust your fiamme Red labels, I could see
not being comfortable on yellow labels due to weight limits (I'm not the 135 I was back
in the day). Did the metal break down? Has being stored for 25plus years caused the metal
to fatigue to the point of failure?
I ride Gel330s, GP4s, Super Champion Aspins all of similiar vintage to your fiammes and
I have no fear that they are going to fail.
As for your original post, all of my bikes are riders, none are show bikes in concours condition.
I have brifters on my Serotta (a few years older than yours) and speedplay clipless pedals, and
the bike is shod with Mavic GP4 rims.
The only thing I get really grouchy about is nomenclature, call them tubulars, call them
sewups, or singles or whatever the regional name is, but for gods' sake don't call them tubies.
marty

Lotek: I agree, the term tubies makes my flesh crawl. I don't have anymore Red labels that are round as I am 25 lbs over my ideal riding weight. Gerry

All this talk about weight and yellow label Fiamme rims kind of "clinches" (corny pun intended :D ) my decision to put the yellow label rims aside on the Raleigh International. Let's just say I'm much closer to 200 than 150 lbs. :rolleyes: What do you all think about lacing those vintage '72 Record hubs that are currently laced to the Fiammes to some new Mavic clinchers? Not in terms of "correctness", obviously, but for functionality?

Personally, I think it depends on the bike and what you want to do with it.
Bingo. In some cases it also depend on what came with the be when you got it. In my case, my 1967 Paramount came to me as frame-and-fork, and I wanted it to be a rider, not a wall hanging. I also did not have the time or resources to make it period correct. That meant using what I had, with some judicious purchases. I love riding and looking at the result. I like to think that the frame is now doing what it was meant to be doing - getting out on the road and giving someone a lot of pleasure.

Personally, I'm with the group that says hang the stuff you like on a frame. Unless it's a '60's Cinelli or Masi and you try to hang Japanese stuff on it - that's just wrong.;)

I'm still fairly new to the forum but I have noticed that there is a rabid hatred of new tech on our classic rides, such as brake lever shifters and splash tape, but most bikes pictured on this sub-forum are running clinchers (even the early 70's bikes which all came with tubulars).
I'm not trying to start a flame war but is this some kind of double standard? Someone please explain.
BTW, you probably already guessed that I am a fan of glued on tires but even I have a set of clincher wheels for each of my bikes to use in the winter months. Gerry

As a die hard fan of tubulars (last rode clinchers as my main tyre in 1971) I've oft wondered that, too. I got no problem with 27" clinchers, after all, they were what was sold in the US. Putting 700c clinchers on a vintage bike in the US, however, makes my teeth ache.

As to availability, yeah, they're not exactly common in the lbs, but I'm lucky in that the local Performance Bike outlet carries my main ride, Vittoria Rallye 28-23, in stock at all times.

Only high-zoot road racers used them even in the 50's, 60's and 70's. Clinchers were always an option, and if you use them now, the bike looks much the same. If you use brifters, it changes the look. That said, I just do what I like with my bikes, rather than worry what other people think, and I'd suggest everyone do the same. If I wanted a set of brifters, you can bet your bottom I'd have them, and not be in the least interested if people got upset!

Obviously, I was a high-zoot something or other back then, but it sure wasn't a racer. My Gitane Super Corsa introduced me to tubs back in '71, and from that point on, if it was a derailleur equipped road bike, it had tubs. Clinchers were limited to my Raleigh Sports and Twenties. And I built a couple dozen sets of wheels for the locals back then for their Raleigh Super Corses, etc.

When I got back in last year, choice of wheels wasn't an issue - I just stuck with what I remembered and was good at - tubs. And it kills me to get the reactions from local riders when they see my bikes. "You're riding tubulars? Haven't you gotten hurt when the tyre rolled off in a corner? Doesn't it bother you to get two and three punctures in a day?"

Pulleeeze. Sometimes it kills me to hear the misinformation going around about tubulars. By the way, all the above comments came from mechanics at some of the local bike shops.

Sykerocker: I have the same experience too. Once, as I was pulling off a very old and worn tire which had gone flat during a ride, an experienced cyclist in my club watched fascinated as I mounted the spare. She said she had never witnessed the procedure before.
It's been my good fortune to have most of my sew-ups wear out the rubber before they flat, can't say that about my clinchers; and tubulars wheels glide over road imperfections, even pumped up to 120 psi in the back. Gerry

I've upgraded two of my old bikes to modern Shimano drivetrains with 700c wheels. I've kept 3 of them stock with 27 inch clinchers (as stock) and SunTour components. I don't care what anyone puts on their bikes. I think it would be a shame to take an original bike in excellent condition and part it out to make a Fixie when there are plenty of bare frames around that you can do that with. That might get you some righteously earned criticism. If you want to take all the hardware off your 2006 Trek and mount it on a 70's frame, all I ask is that you show us some pictures when you are done and relate the comments made when you went on the group ride.

I'm beginning to believe that cyclists today are a pack of wusses:rolleyes: Back in the day (the old fogie creaks), most people I cycled with considered tubulars as going to a lot of extra work to get a significant advantage in performance, but nobody took the attitude that they're made of glass or something like that. I guess that 700c clinchers have become so predominant that very few people have the slightest clue anymore as to what the tyres are about.

I still get a giggle that everybody I've met who sells or works on bicycles for a living admits that tubulars still have the advantage in performance, no matter how fancy or exotic the clincher. Only, "it's not worth the extra trouble to get that little boost". And while I've been on line tonight, the wife drops off the Jan/Feb issue of Bicycling: In one article, they ride and dissect Yaroslav Popovych's (Discovery Channel) Trek that he'll be using in the coming season.

Immediately mentioned in the section on tyres: " . . . . tubulars are still the ultimate race wheel/tire configuration. They're faster and more dependable than clinchers, and offer an uncompromising ride quality."

OK, bloody few of us here are racers. Just the same, what is it that makes cyclists knowingly run the second-best configuration. Fear? Laziness?

35 years ago, because of weight and allowable air pressure, tubulars had a big performance advantage over clinchers, and I am glad I had a set of tubular-tired wheels for the Double Century. Today, however, the difference between tubulars and the best clinchers is too small to be of concern for most cyclists. However, I suppose I really should be tubulars on the 1960 Capo, which would make it 99% original ...

I'm still fairly new to the forum but I have noticed that there is a rabid hatred of new tech on our classic rides, such as brake lever shifters and splash tape, but most bikes pictured on this sub-forum are running clinchers (even the early 70's bikes which all came with tubulars).
I'm not trying to start a flame war but is this some kind of double standard? Someone please explain.
BTW, you probably already guessed that I am a fan of glued on tires but even I have a set of clincher wheels for each of my bikes to use in the winter months. Gerry

I wish there were classic rides in my area. Where are these classic rides I keep reading about? On my Masi I would never run brifters because the only 7 speed ones available for the spacing on my rear triangle are the shimano sora ones. And these look too modernistic and monochromatic in contrast to the serious classic look of the Masi. I love the idea of rear indexing from the down tube lever, and friction shifting the front is old school but also better than STI because of infinite trimmability.
You're right about tubulars too. The demographic of tubular using vintage riders is pretty small. You start to think you are all alone. Kind of like walking into a Chevrolet dealership and asking to test drive an Impala with a stick shift. You're on your own.
I like the term "Tubie". It sounds nice to me, kind of lovable and familiar :) .
I have a classic Masi Gran Criterium and I hang Shimano parts on it.
See what an iconoclast I am?
Period correct clinchers were heavy, flatted a lot, looked not at all sexy, were hard to mount, and actually pretty expensive in the long run since you were always running out and getting patch kits and spare tubes.
Tubies (O.K. "tubulars" my bad :rolleyes: ) were sweet. My first set of tubulars were Clement Criterium cottons on a used Campy low flange wheelset I bought used. The rims were a mix of Nisi and Super Champion. These were on a Schwinn Super LeTour 12.2 and the difference was night and day compared with those 27 x 1-1/8" Araya/"Schwinn Approved" hubs it came with. That bike, unfortunately was stolen.
I built up the Masi when I was 16 years old piece by piece. I splurged on the wheels, it only seemed right to give it the best wheels I could afford on my minimum wages. I spec'd Bullseye hubs (gold ano centers with black ano flanges) to gold anodized Mavic OR10 tubular rims and had the pro bike shop build them up with DT double butted spokes (DT wasn't known as "DT Swiss" back then). These wheels spun silently on the sealed bearing and would blind you with their "bling" back then. I wanted to make a statement with my Black Masi. I bought Zeus 2000 titanium skewers even. For the tires I ran with Continental Sonderklasse 240's. These were wide tires with ribbed tread that tolerated high inflation pressures. They were wonderful. It was a sad day when they eventually wore out. The ride was so much better than clinchers that just writing this is motivating me to line up some Continental Competition 240's for 2007. Great tires like that, mounted properly on quality strong wheels, rock. Many people aren't aware of the cornering, and ride softening aspects of tubulars.
So in conclusion, "I'm no brifter hater, but count me as a tubular lover".

Masi61: Reading your post made me happy. So far 2 others, besides myself, who love the ride of sew-ups. It's a shame more vintage riders won't take the plunge and see what they are missing. The purpose of this thread is to encourage more owners of classic rides to see how thier bikes were meant to ride; also to remind a few who have forgotten or been seduced by the convienence of clinchers. Try both ways and see which you prefer. Gerry

All this talk about weight and yellow label Fiamme rims kind of "clinches" (corny pun intended :D ) my decision to put the yellow label rims aside on the Raleigh International. Let's just say I'm much closer to 200 than 150 lbs. :rolleyes: What do you all think about lacing those vintage '72 Record hubs that are currently laced to the Fiammes to some new Mavic clinchers? Not in terms of "correctness", obviously, but for functionality?

I've never used Fiamme Yellows, but if the spokes are tight (check into The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt), true, and evenly tight, you have a wheel with no significant degradation. I would try to use the wheel as it is, first. If it's going to fail it won't be an instant catastrophic failure.

I think your vintage hubs will work extremely well with modern rims. Wy shouldn't they, as long as there is no mechanical failure in the hub flange? Modern rims seem a bit heavier than some of the older ones, but the Mavic Open Pro is a great rim, as are the DTs. They are a bit deeper section than, say, Mavic MA-2 or MA-3. They'll be a bit stiffer radially. I have one wheelset with 25 mm depth Matrix rims on early DuraAce hubs with 3 x spokes, and they are a bit stiffer in feel, but strong and reliable.

Even better, go out on Ebay and get a pair of original wheels already equipped with a more suitable set of period tubular rims, such as Fiamme reds, Mavic GP-4, Super Champion Alpin, Nisi, or Ambrosio. They are stunningly cheap on good old Campy Nuovo Record or Super Record hubsets, and I've even seen high flange sets at bargain prices. Add to that a pair of Vittoria Rally tubulars, a few tubes of Vittoria Mastic glue, and a copy of Lennard Zinn's Cycling Primer, and you are on your way to a fine set of period user tubular wheels. In this context, there's NO reason to go to modern components. This set of wheels should cost less than a fresh pair of Mavic Open Pro rims (~$60 EACH!!, v. $60 to $100 for the wheelset).

Road Fan

to be conservative with older parts, I would lace the new rims in with teh same spoke pattern as the old wheels, to make sure that the flanges are not over stressed. Radial lacing is harder on the flanges than 3x, and radial operation is not guaranteed even by some modern hubs.

I've never used Fiamme Yellows, but if the spokes are tight (check into The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt), true, and evenly tight, you have a wheel with no significant degradation. I would try to use the wheel as it is, first. If it's going to fail it won't be an instant catastrophic failure.

I think your vintage hubs will work extremely well with modern rims. Wy shouldn't they, as long as there is no mechanical failure in the hub flange? Modern rims seem a bit heavier than some of the older ones, but the Mavic Open Pro is a great rim, as are the DTs. They are a bit deeper section than, say, Mavic MA-2 or MA-3. They'll be a bit stiffer radially. I have one wheelset with 25 mm depth Matrix rims on early DuraAce hubs with 3 x spokes, and they are a bit stiffer in feel, but strong and reliable.

Even better, go out on Ebay and get a pair of original wheels already equipped with a more suitable set of period tubular rims, such as Fiamme reds, Mavic GP-4, Super Champion Alpin, Nisi, or Ambrosio. They are stunningly cheap on good old Campy Nuovo Record or Super Record hubsets, and I've even seen high flange sets at bargain prices. Add to that a pair of Vittoria Rally tubulars, a few tubes of Vittoria Mastic glue, and a copy of Lennard Zinn's Cycling Primer, and you are on your way to a fine set of period user tubular wheels. In this context, there's NO reason to go to modern components. This set of wheels should cost less than a fresh pair of Mavic Open Pro rims (~$60 EACH!!, v. $60 to $100 for the wheelset).

Road Fan

to be conservative with older parts, I would lace the new rims in with teh same spoke pattern as the old wheels, to make sure that the flanges are not over stressed. Radial lacing is harder on the flanges than 3x, and radial operation is not guaranteed even by some modern hubs.

Thanks Road Fan, for the insight. As I've said recently, this higher-end road bike stuff is all brand new to me, I'm learning more all the time. I still haven't completely ruled out running tubulars, and I definitely want to utilize the Campy hubs whether tubular or clinchers. It's pretty amazing, I really don't think the bike's had anything done to it as far as maintenance for decades, and the hubs and bottom bottom bracket spin as smooth as silk-

I ride both tubulars and clinchers, but I come from more of a commuting/recreational/mechanics background, and have ridden on clinchers most of my life. I vastly prefer the ride of the tubulars, but given the PITA of repair and the abundance of glass in the roadways, I ride clinchers in town. I can always fix them quick. Yes, I know it takes a bit longer to replace a tube or patch on than to simply slap a new tubular on, but the overall fix time is quicker (assuming you patch the tubulars), and frankly, I suck at sewing. The only bike I currently have tubulars on is the 1967 PX, and it never sees the downtown streets. Also, my 72 PX and 73 Eisentraut/CID have stock (or period, with the correct hubs for the group) clinchers. These were on the bikes when I found them.

Gerald, Syke, Well Biked, et al.

Please, you need to remember that tubulars ARE dangerous, and the chances are very
good that you are going to roll a tire and break your hip like Joseba Beloki (lets just forget
about all that melted tar ok?). Tubulars are a PITA, they are fragile and require obscure
technology like liquid latex, did I mention that they are UNSAFE?
If this attitude is maintained it will be much easier (and cheaper) for me to find
Nisi Sluidi rims, Clement seta silks and dugast tubulars are reasonable prices.
(now if I can just convince those SS/Fixie/track types that tubulars are a bad thing). . .

BTW Sonderclasse are still available but are close to $200 per tire retail.
marty

I grew up riding tires with tubes. Old part of Philadelphia with coblestone streets vacant lots broken glass and urbin debre every whare, never a problen with flat tires until the tread was worn paper thin. The local bike shop has decent tires in stock for 10$ and cheap ones for 6$ I dont know how to glue tires and dont want to spend the money to learn.

Gerald, Syke, Well Biked, et al.

Please, you need to remember that tubulars ARE dangerous, and the chances are very
good that you are going to roll a tire and break your hip like Joseba Beloki (lets just forget
about all that melted tar ok?). Tubulars are a PITA, they are fragile and require obscure
technology like liquid latex, did I mention that they are UNSAFE?
If this attitude is maintained it will be much easier (and cheaper) for me to find
Nisi Sluidi rims, Clement seta silks and dugast tubulars are reasonable prices.
(now if I can just convince those SS/Fixie/track types that tubulars are a bad thing). . .

BTW Sonderclasse are still available but are close to $200 per tire retail.
marty
Nope, I spend my life making the 700c clincher riders feel like the lazy little weenies they are :rolleyes: . You know, people who are too indifferent or lazy to learn the best way, and happily ride inferior technology just to keep from getting their hands too dirty:rolleyes: :D. I have to agree with Poguemahone about city traffic - my Magneet has a pair of wheels of each type (700c sewup and 27x1 clicher) because I do limit sewup use to good roads. Actually I consider 26x2.00 tyres minimum for in town commuting - thus my Raleigh Seneca, and I'm going to be building a second mtb with street tyres to leave at work for lunch hours.

Gerald, Syke, Well Biked, et al.

Please, you need to remember that tubulars ARE dangerous, and the chances are very
good that you are going to roll a tire and break your hip like Joseba Beloki (lets just forget
about all that melted tar ok?). Tubulars are a PITA, they are fragile and require obscure
technology like liquid latex, did I mention that they are UNSAFE?
If this attitude is maintained it will be much easier (and cheaper) for me to find
Nisi Sluidi rims, Clement seta silks and dugast tubulars are reasonable prices.
(now if I can just convince those SS/Fixie/track types that tubulars are a bad thing). . .

BTW Sonderclasse are still available but are close to $200 per tire retail.
marty

Lotek, it just means more good used Vittoria CGs with butyl for me. Maybe we should jointly shop Ebay and freeze out the fixers.

I ride both tubulars and clinchers, but I come from more of a commuting/recreational/mechanics background, and have ridden on clinchers most of my life. I vastly prefer the ride of the tubulars, but given the PITA of repair and the abundance of glass in the roadways, I ride clinchers in town. I can always fix them quick. Yes, I know it takes a bit longer to replace a tube or patch on than to simply slap a new tubular on, but the overall fix time is quicker (assuming you patch the tubulars), and frankly, I suck at sewing. The only bike I currently have tubulars on is the 1967 PX, and it never sees the downtown streets. Also, my 72 PX and 73 Eisentraut/CID have stock (or period, with the correct hubs for the group) clinchers. These were on the bikes when I found them.

Poque,

If my town (Ann Arbor) had a lot of glass in the street I might think less of my sewups.

The sewing part is not so bad. You need a good Velox kit and good instructions, such as (again!) Lennard Zinn's Cycling Primer. BTW, this repair procedure is not something you do at the side of the road, but on a nice workbench in the air conditioning with a bowl of pretzels and a glass of Cabernet at your fingertips, and some cool jazz on the stereo. Don't stick the needle in the tube, you'll just have another hole to patch.

On the road you use the spare sewup that you are carrying strapped to the bottom of your saddle with a clapped-out toe strap, and your inflator (pump for us old farts.). Because it's a used tire, it has glue residue on it and will adhere fairly well to the rim once inflated and warmed, and will be safe for reasonable cornering. Installing the spare might not be just slapping it on, because the tires should be slightly undersized for the rim. But experience with single-pivot brakes strengthens your hands adequately (bicycles are a system, after all!).

You also don't replace a tube. That would require separating the sewn seam all the way around, with huge risk of not getting it all lined up right when re-sewing. You only slit the seam in the vicinity of the puncture, say 4 inches on either side. Again, Lennard Zinn explains all of it.

Road Fan

I debated this topic myself with my vitage ride (1972 Bottecchia Giro d'Italia) - a previous owner had replaced the original Fiamme red labels with cheap steel 700C rims. If he'd used a better clincher rim I probably would have left them but after looking at the meager selection of period correct clincher rims in 700C and the poor selection of tires in 27-in I decided to acquire some NOS Fiamme red labels and go with sewups. On my first ride, totally unprepared, I unexpectedly hooked up with a group of riders headed out of town for a long ride and about 30 miles out, with no spare tire, I heard the load POP! and the sickening HISSSSS of my rear tire going flat. End of ride. And call wife to pick me up. And now I get to learn how to fix these things. Any tire can go flat. Finding an LBS around here that is willing and able to fix a flat sewup is a difficult and expensive proposition (and this in Colorado Springs - I can only imagine what a PITA if you live in a non-cycling town) so it's time to learn a new skill. I might just be back on eBay soon looking for some Super Champions or Fiamme clinchers to build a spare wheelset if this proves to be a trend.

OK, bloody few of us here are racers. Just the same, what is it that makes cyclists knowingly run the second-best configuration. Fear? Laziness?

Laziness for me. I ride a bunch of miles and do a lot of centuries in remote locales. I'd rather not futz with glue and stuff. I can pull/change/inflate a clincher and be on my way in 5 minutes, and all I have to carry is a tube and a smal patch kit for emergencies.

Especially when the Michelin Pro Race 2 clincher's ride so nicely.

IMO, it's not any more "okay" to put clinchers on a classic road racing bike than it is to put on STI, clipless, or whatever. OTOH, it's not any less "okay" either.

I ride my old race bike because I like to remember what it was like to be young and fit and riding my old race bike. And that means tubulars, because even though I'll believe clinchers are lighter, faster, and get the chickweed out of my lawn, they still do not feel as good as tubulars.

Frankly, I barely understand the desire to put clinchers on a vintage racer. It strikes me as similar to installing a DVD player in your '57 Chevy, or fuel injection in your panhead Harley. Yeah, you can do it, and yeah, it might even be useful and "upgraded", but maybe if you wanted modern you should have just bought an SUV.

As for the business about fragility, danger, terrible difficulty in mounting, etc., well, those who know tubulars understand that all to be nonsense, and those that don't know tubulars might do well to listen to the folks that have "seen the elephant" rather than the folks who are just passing along stuff that they heard somehwere. (You know who you are!;-p)

I'll end my rant, though, by saying that if it's your bike you can do what you want with it and who cares if somebody else doesn't "get" it. Lord knows I've had my fill of "collectors" who complain that my date codes don't match or that, in that year, that model came with red toe strap buttons and not black. So make yourself happy and the hell with the rest!

IMO, it's not any more "okay" to put clinchers on a classic road racing bike than it is to put on STI, clipless, or whatever. OTOH, it's not any less "okay" either.

I ride my old race bike because I like to remember what it was like to be young and fit and riding my old race bike. And that means tubulars, because even though I'll believe clinchers are lighter, faster, and get the chickweed out of my lawn, they still do not feel as good as tubulars.

Frankly, I barely understand the desire to put clinchers on a vintage racer. It strikes me as similar to installing a DVD player in your '57 Chevy, or fuel injection in your panhead Harley. Yeah, you can do it, and yeah, it might even be useful and "upgraded", but maybe if you wanted modern you should have just bought an SUV.

As for the business about fragility, danger, terrible difficulty in mounting, etc., well, those who know tubulars understand that all to be nonsense, and those that don't know tubulars might do well to listen to the folks that have "seen the elephant" rather than the folks who are just passing along stuff that they heard somehwere. (You know who you are!;-p)

I'll end my rant, though, by saying that if it's your bike you can do what you want with it and who cares if somebody else doesn't "get" it. Lord knows I've had my fill of "collectors" who complain that my date codes don't match or that, in that year, that model came with red toe strap buttons and not black. So make yourself happy and the hell with the rest!

What if your classic road bike came equipped with clinchers?

What if your classic road bike came equipped with clinchers?
Then it could not be a high end bike from the 1970's or earlier. Only the inferior bike came with clinchers back then. Gerry

After all this ebay parting out of vintage bikes, how many of us really have an "original" bike and can say with absolute certainty that their frame came equipped with sewups? I know in '71 or 2 my new Gitane Interclub was spec'd with 'em, but my bike had good old dimpled Rigida rims and clinchers. Today, my '74 Gitane TdF has EVO-CX's, my '84 Trek 760 has Hutchisons, and my '94 SS also wears EVO-CX. Boy they ride nice. But my Casati rides on PR2's like BBM's.

I did not say clincher retrofits were o.k. or good. What type of tire would you rather have a blowout with going 50kph down hill? And which one would give you the best chance to live to tell the tale?

Be a man, learn to shift without notches. Index shifting allows the strong and the stupid to ride next to you in a group.

Tressostar is good.

New helmets, while not vintage looking are good. I want my opinions intact.

Bring back the requirement of black cycling shorts for racing, and white socks.

I guess it matters what period your bike is from. The bikes that I have are from the 80s. My wheels are from that period. I have clincher wheelsets built with MA40 and Open4CD rims and a set of tubulars with GEL330 rims.

Splash tape ruins a bike no matter it's age.