Roody
12-30-06, 07:47 PM
What does "carfree" mean? For that matter, what does "car" mean?
View Full Version : Can we or can we not agree on a definition?
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I-Like-To-Bike
12-30-06, 07:50 PM
What does "carfree" mean? For that matter, what does "car" mean?
What does "we" mean?
Note: I'm car free by the definition of the current poll because the family car is in my wife's name and I seldom drive it, but not by my own definition.
What does "we" mean?
Note: I'm car free by the definition of the current poll because the family car is in my wife's name and I seldom drive it, but not by my own definition.
Roody
12-30-06, 08:20 PM
What does "we" mean?
Note: I'm car free by the definition of the current poll because the family car is in my wife's name and I seldom drive it, but not by my own definition.
But darling, what is your "own definition"? I mean that's kinda what the thread is about, so give us a clue! We already know the poll's definition--what's your definition?
Note: I'm car free by the definition of the current poll because the family car is in my wife's name and I seldom drive it, but not by my own definition.
But darling, what is your "own definition"? I mean that's kinda what the thread is about, so give us a clue! We already know the poll's definition--what's your definition?
Roody
12-30-06, 08:21 PM
Oh, and "we" means "us". That is: those individuals, considered collectively, who are reading the silly thing.
DUH.
DUH.
cooker
12-30-06, 08:29 PM
Car-free doesnt have to have an exact meaning. It can have a range of meanings. Still we can try to have a consensus on the scope of the term.
To me it means not owning a car within your nuclear family or household, and being able to manage most of daily life without resorting to using one. If a supposedly car-free person took a cab to work every day, that would partially defeat the purpose of being car free, so I probably would not call her car free. If she took one once a week, and walked, cycled or used public transit the rest of the time, I might still call her car free. If she rented one occasionally for holidays, I would still not see a problem with the definition. We could quibble on the specific details, but in broad terms that is how I would describe it. You don't own a car and most of the time you don't use one.
To me it means not owning a car within your nuclear family or household, and being able to manage most of daily life without resorting to using one. If a supposedly car-free person took a cab to work every day, that would partially defeat the purpose of being car free, so I probably would not call her car free. If she took one once a week, and walked, cycled or used public transit the rest of the time, I might still call her car free. If she rented one occasionally for holidays, I would still not see a problem with the definition. We could quibble on the specific details, but in broad terms that is how I would describe it. You don't own a car and most of the time you don't use one.
patc
12-30-06, 08:51 PM
Can we agree? Of course not, this is BF.net!
For what its worth, my definition:
car: A personal-use motor vehicle. May or may be extended to include motorcycles, etc., but only implies automobiles.
car-free person: a person who neither owns nor regularly uses a car for personal use
For what its worth, my definition:
car: A personal-use motor vehicle. May or may be extended to include motorcycles, etc., but only implies automobiles.
car-free person: a person who neither owns nor regularly uses a car for personal use
gerv
12-30-06, 08:59 PM
Car-free doesnt have to have an exact meaning. It can have a range of meanings. Still we can try to have a consensus on the scope of the term.
To me it means not owning a car within your nuclear family or household, and being able to manage most of daily life without resorting to using one. If a supposedly car-free person took a cab to work every day, that would partially defeat the purpose of being car free, so I probably would not call her car free. If she took one once a week, and walked, cycled or used public transit the rest of the time, I might still call her car free. If she rented one occasionally for holidays, I would still not see a problem with the definition. We could quibble on the specific details, but in broad terms that is how I would describe it. You don't own a car and most of the time you don't use one.
Hard to disagree with your definition. But I'm curious as to why we need to precisely define it.
Hopefully in defining it, we are not forming some sort of "club" that excludes the car-lite or even the dude who posted here last week saying, "I'm trying to use my bike as much as possible and leave my SUV in the driveway".
To me it means not owning a car within your nuclear family or household, and being able to manage most of daily life without resorting to using one. If a supposedly car-free person took a cab to work every day, that would partially defeat the purpose of being car free, so I probably would not call her car free. If she took one once a week, and walked, cycled or used public transit the rest of the time, I might still call her car free. If she rented one occasionally for holidays, I would still not see a problem with the definition. We could quibble on the specific details, but in broad terms that is how I would describe it. You don't own a car and most of the time you don't use one.
Hard to disagree with your definition. But I'm curious as to why we need to precisely define it.
Hopefully in defining it, we are not forming some sort of "club" that excludes the car-lite or even the dude who posted here last week saying, "I'm trying to use my bike as much as possible and leave my SUV in the driveway".
Roody
12-30-06, 09:04 PM
Can we agree? Of course not, this is BF.net!
For what its worth, my definition:
car: A personal-use motor vehicle. May or may be extended to include motorcycles, etc., but only implies automobiles.
car-free person: a person who neither owns nor regularly uses a car for personal use
I'm glad for this comment, because I always liked your definition. It's simple and fairly precise.
I would include motorcycles as cars since, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists, they actually are more polluting than automobiles. Of course, pollution is not the only factor. Motorcycles are two-wheeled and small, and like bicycles they convey a sense of independence and adventure, uniquely combined with practicality, which cars don't share.
For what its worth, my definition:
car: A personal-use motor vehicle. May or may be extended to include motorcycles, etc., but only implies automobiles.
car-free person: a person who neither owns nor regularly uses a car for personal use
I'm glad for this comment, because I always liked your definition. It's simple and fairly precise.
I would include motorcycles as cars since, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists, they actually are more polluting than automobiles. Of course, pollution is not the only factor. Motorcycles are two-wheeled and small, and like bicycles they convey a sense of independence and adventure, uniquely combined with practicality, which cars don't share.
patc
12-30-06, 09:54 PM
I would include motorcycles as cars since, according to the Union of Concerned Scientists, they actually are more polluting than automobiles. Of course, pollution is not the only factor. Motorcycles are two-wheeled and small, and like bicycles they convey a sense of independence and adventure, uniquely combined with practicality, which cars don't share.
In addition to the smaller footprint, motorcycles also require a somewhat lesser commitment of materials (metals, plastics, etc.) to one vehicle. One of my objections to cars is the gross amount of "stuff" that is monopolized for this one vehicle.
In practice I would not consider a person "car-free" is he/she commutes to work every day by motorcycle, but there are sufficient grey areas there that I am reluctant to lump motorcycles into the term "car" for my use as a car-free advocate.
In addition to the smaller footprint, motorcycles also require a somewhat lesser commitment of materials (metals, plastics, etc.) to one vehicle. One of my objections to cars is the gross amount of "stuff" that is monopolized for this one vehicle.
In practice I would not consider a person "car-free" is he/she commutes to work every day by motorcycle, but there are sufficient grey areas there that I am reluctant to lump motorcycles into the term "car" for my use as a car-free advocate.
Rowan
12-30-06, 10:06 PM
Why have you revived this discussion, Roody?
You made it quite clear in another relatively recent thread that *you*, as the self-appointed controller of this forum, were not going to change the title of the forum from Living Car Free. That indicated to me that you had very fixed ideas on what the title Living Car Free meant, and it suited you to retain the title. Mind you, I don't think you ever did really explain to my satisfaction your reasons for retention of Living Car Free... but rather blamed me for deciding not to follow through with a name change.
It seems to me now that *you* have asked a pointless question, because, based on that previous thread, the only answer we can agree on is: the one *you* define.
You made it quite clear in another relatively recent thread that *you*, as the self-appointed controller of this forum, were not going to change the title of the forum from Living Car Free. That indicated to me that you had very fixed ideas on what the title Living Car Free meant, and it suited you to retain the title. Mind you, I don't think you ever did really explain to my satisfaction your reasons for retention of Living Car Free... but rather blamed me for deciding not to follow through with a name change.
It seems to me now that *you* have asked a pointless question, because, based on that previous thread, the only answer we can agree on is: the one *you* define.
lima_bean
12-31-06, 12:29 AM
I dont really think its that important to pin down the definition exactly.
Roody
12-31-06, 01:15 AM
Why have you revived this discussion, Roody?
You made it quite clear in another relatively recent thread that *you*, as the self-appointed controller of this forum, were not going to change the title of the forum from Living Car Free. That indicated to me that you had very fixed ideas on what the title Living Car Free meant, and it suited you to retain the title. Mind you, I don't think you ever did really explain to my satisfaction your reasons for retention of Living Car Free... but rather blamed me for deciding not to follow through with a name change.
It seems to me now that *you* have asked a pointless question, because, based on that previous thread, the only answer we can agree on is: the one *you* define.
Gosh I'm sorry, but I don't recall exactly what you're talking about. But I don't see a discussion about a definition of carfree as being the same as a discussion about the name of the forum. If they are the same, I'm sorry for being redundant.
I decided to start this thread because the issue came up in the Poll thread. Some people indicted that they're not carfree because they own a car, even though they haven't driven it for months or even years. Other people don't own a car, but somebody in their household does, and they may even drive it frequently, and by the Poll definition, they are carfree. This issue was confusing to me, so I wanted to find out what people mean when they say "carfree." I don't know that we can (or even should) come to an agreement on a definition, but I wanted to learn more about what people think on the issue. I generally find discussions of definitions to be interesting and beneficial. Even if no agreement is reached, the participants often learn a lot about the topic.
You made it quite clear in another relatively recent thread that *you*, as the self-appointed controller of this forum, were not going to change the title of the forum from Living Car Free. That indicated to me that you had very fixed ideas on what the title Living Car Free meant, and it suited you to retain the title. Mind you, I don't think you ever did really explain to my satisfaction your reasons for retention of Living Car Free... but rather blamed me for deciding not to follow through with a name change.
It seems to me now that *you* have asked a pointless question, because, based on that previous thread, the only answer we can agree on is: the one *you* define.
Gosh I'm sorry, but I don't recall exactly what you're talking about. But I don't see a discussion about a definition of carfree as being the same as a discussion about the name of the forum. If they are the same, I'm sorry for being redundant.
I decided to start this thread because the issue came up in the Poll thread. Some people indicted that they're not carfree because they own a car, even though they haven't driven it for months or even years. Other people don't own a car, but somebody in their household does, and they may even drive it frequently, and by the Poll definition, they are carfree. This issue was confusing to me, so I wanted to find out what people mean when they say "carfree." I don't know that we can (or even should) come to an agreement on a definition, but I wanted to learn more about what people think on the issue. I generally find discussions of definitions to be interesting and beneficial. Even if no agreement is reached, the participants often learn a lot about the topic.
Rowan
12-31-06, 02:25 AM
Very conveniently, the thread seems to have disappeared in the database meltdown. But you and I both know there was an extensive discussion on whether the title of the forum should be changed, and that part of that extensive discussion related to Utility Cycling versus Living Car Free.
Maybe I'll put up my original and further reasons why Living Car Free is not appropriate... but I suspect discussion on *this* thread and through the poll is already showing that.
Maybe I'll put up my original and further reasons why Living Car Free is not appropriate... but I suspect discussion on *this* thread and through the poll is already showing that.
I-Like-To-Bike
12-31-06, 07:20 AM
But darling, what is your "own definition"? I mean that's kinda what the thread is about, so give us a clue! We already know the poll's definition--what's your definition?
Save the "darling" stuff for your support group. My definition means not owning/keeping a car in the household. Or any routine use of mooching car rides from others. This definition includes the millions of urban people who use public transportation or walk and who would never consider riding a bicycle anywhere.
Of course there is no need for reaching consensus on this definition or any other bicycling subject; except perhaps for those who want to have their own opinion (or intelligence) on the subject validated by affirmation from "us."
Save the "darling" stuff for your support group. My definition means not owning/keeping a car in the household. Or any routine use of mooching car rides from others. This definition includes the millions of urban people who use public transportation or walk and who would never consider riding a bicycle anywhere.
Of course there is no need for reaching consensus on this definition or any other bicycling subject; except perhaps for those who want to have their own opinion (or intelligence) on the subject validated by affirmation from "us."
Roody
12-31-06, 09:34 AM
Save the "darling" stuff for your support group. My definition means not owning/keeping a car in the household. Or any routine use of mooching car rides from others. This definition includes the millions of urban people who use public transportation or walk and who would never consider riding a bicycle anywhere.
Thanks sweetie. I think that's a great definition. :)
Personally, I think occasional mooching is OK, but I hate to do it often. For one thing, it's an imposition on friends to be begging rides frequently. For another, I give up some of my independence and mobility when I rely on others. Also, I hate being late, while the moochee may not mind it.
Unfortunately, I have been mooching lately. I just developed arthritis in my knee. I've been taking the bus :( to work, but the bus isn't running when my shift ends at 11:30 PM, and I really can't afford a taxi every night, so I've been bumming rides. At this point, my knee is good enough that I can start walking home, but I won't get home until almost 1:00 AM. Oh well, the price of getting old is decrepitude, I guess.
Of course there is no need for reaching consensus on this definition or any other bicycling subject; except perhaps for those who want to have their own opinion (or intelligence) on the subject validated by affirmation from "us."Once again I'm forced to agree with you! :eek:
Check the title I gave this thread--I wasn't asking for agreement, but for a range of opinions that might contribute to greater understanding of a confusing topic. IMO, consensus is great when a group is deciding to take some action; but since an internet forum doesn't have to act, it doesn't have to agree.
BTW, when I say "us" I mean "me" and "everybody else" who reads this stuff--even "you." I think "you" sometimes read too much into grammar.
Thanks sweetie. I think that's a great definition. :)
Personally, I think occasional mooching is OK, but I hate to do it often. For one thing, it's an imposition on friends to be begging rides frequently. For another, I give up some of my independence and mobility when I rely on others. Also, I hate being late, while the moochee may not mind it.
Unfortunately, I have been mooching lately. I just developed arthritis in my knee. I've been taking the bus :( to work, but the bus isn't running when my shift ends at 11:30 PM, and I really can't afford a taxi every night, so I've been bumming rides. At this point, my knee is good enough that I can start walking home, but I won't get home until almost 1:00 AM. Oh well, the price of getting old is decrepitude, I guess.
Of course there is no need for reaching consensus on this definition or any other bicycling subject; except perhaps for those who want to have their own opinion (or intelligence) on the subject validated by affirmation from "us."Once again I'm forced to agree with you! :eek:
Check the title I gave this thread--I wasn't asking for agreement, but for a range of opinions that might contribute to greater understanding of a confusing topic. IMO, consensus is great when a group is deciding to take some action; but since an internet forum doesn't have to act, it doesn't have to agree.
BTW, when I say "us" I mean "me" and "everybody else" who reads this stuff--even "you." I think "you" sometimes read too much into grammar.
Artkansas
12-31-06, 10:22 AM
To me, car-free means living your life without driving a car for transportation. It is a temporary state that I have been in and out of.
I have a car, but it has been parked for over a year and a half. For that time, I have been car-free as I have been in earlier parts of my life.
I have a car, but it has been parked for over a year and a half. For that time, I have been car-free as I have been in earlier parts of my life.
littledog
12-31-06, 10:47 AM
To me the motive is the most important part. A lot of people are car free for purely economic reasons.Such as lack of money or they live in a big city with good public transportation.
Other people are car free because of enviromental reasons and the misuse of limited natural resources.
So on that line of reasoning someone who is "car lite" may or may not be better at saving money or more interested in a small ecological footprint.
So what does it mean to be car-free? Is it not a question of intention or motive more than a matter of actual possesion of a car?
Other people are car free because of enviromental reasons and the misuse of limited natural resources.
So on that line of reasoning someone who is "car lite" may or may not be better at saving money or more interested in a small ecological footprint.
So what does it mean to be car-free? Is it not a question of intention or motive more than a matter of actual possesion of a car?
cooker
12-31-06, 12:56 PM
Very conveniently, the thread seems to have disappeared in the database meltdown. But you and I both know there was an extensive discussion on whether the title of the forum should be changed, and that part of that extensive discussion related to Utility Cycling versus Living Car Free.
Maybe I'll put up my original and further reasons why Living Car Free is not appropriate... but I suspect discussion on *this* thread and through the poll is already showing that.
As I recall, a lot of people contributed to that thread, not just you and Roody. And a lot of threads are gone, not just that one.
Utility cycling and car-free living are two separate but related concepts. If you want a new forum on utility cycling why not work towards establishing that?
Maybe I'll put up my original and further reasons why Living Car Free is not appropriate... but I suspect discussion on *this* thread and through the poll is already showing that.
As I recall, a lot of people contributed to that thread, not just you and Roody. And a lot of threads are gone, not just that one.
Utility cycling and car-free living are two separate but related concepts. If you want a new forum on utility cycling why not work towards establishing that?
patc
12-31-06, 01:05 PM
I dont really think its that important to pin down the definition exactly.
Pin one down exactly? No. Have a simple working definition to clarify discussion, as in a forum? Yes. If nothing else, it deals with the trolls who pop in only to say, "You're not really car-free if....."
Pin one down exactly? No. Have a simple working definition to clarify discussion, as in a forum? Yes. If nothing else, it deals with the trolls who pop in only to say, "You're not really car-free if....."
patc
12-31-06, 01:07 PM
Unfortunately, I have been mooching lately. I just developed arthritis in my knee. I've been taking the bus :( to work, but the bus isn't running when my shift ends at 11:30 PM, and I really can't afford a taxi every night, so I've been bumming rides. At this point, my knee is good enough that I can start walking home, but I won't get home until almost 1:00 AM. Oh well, the price of getting old is decrepitude, I guess.
Sorry to hear about your knee. Think about it this way: if not for cycling, you would likely be much more decrepit by now :p
Sorry to hear about your knee. Think about it this way: if not for cycling, you would likely be much more decrepit by now :p
I-Like-To-Bike
12-31-06, 01:58 PM
Pin one down exactly? No. Have a simple working definition to clarify discussion, as in a forum? Yes. If nothing else, it deals with the trolls who pop in only to say, "You're not really car-free if....."
Or the characters dominating the chatter on this list, who think riding a bike and living a lifestyle just like themselves is a necessary requirement to be considered "car-free".
Or the characters dominating the chatter on this list, who think riding a bike and living a lifestyle just like themselves is a necessary requirement to be considered "car-free".
jamesdenver
12-31-06, 02:06 PM
I don't own a car. My significant other, who I live with owns a car. I bike or take bus/train to work. I bike or walk to the grocery stores and do most of my daily life car free. I have grocery panniers and get around town absolutely fine with my bike and love it. But yes I use the car if going out on a snowy night, or picking up 200 pounds of tile at Home Depot, and I chip in for gas and an oil change every now and then.
I may be a poser for the real "car free", but for families who own 2-3 cars I think I'm an excellent example of how you can scale down and save a ton of money with some moderate coordination and planning. I'm not shy about promoting a "one car family" lifestyle to people. Even with a couple kids I think it'd doable with some planning.
I think a trait of car free folks is the adaptation of not RELYING on cars all the time. During our recent snowstorm half the building didn't come to work because their cars were snowed in on side streets. No one even considered other options like walking to the bus stop, calling a cab, studded bike tires, carpooling with a friends snow friendly truck, etc. I see many options of transit, not just cars.
I may be a poser for the real "car free", but for families who own 2-3 cars I think I'm an excellent example of how you can scale down and save a ton of money with some moderate coordination and planning. I'm not shy about promoting a "one car family" lifestyle to people. Even with a couple kids I think it'd doable with some planning.
I think a trait of car free folks is the adaptation of not RELYING on cars all the time. During our recent snowstorm half the building didn't come to work because their cars were snowed in on side streets. No one even considered other options like walking to the bus stop, calling a cab, studded bike tires, carpooling with a friends snow friendly truck, etc. I see many options of transit, not just cars.
littledog
12-31-06, 02:33 PM
Utility cycling and car-free living are two separate but related concepts. If you want a new forum on utility cycling why not work towards establishing that?[/QUOTE]
A forum on utility cycling would be great:)
A forum on utility cycling would be great:)
cuda2k
12-31-06, 03:09 PM
A note to ALL forum members, it is not appropriate to use other members real names here on the Forums without their expressed consent.
Platy
12-31-06, 04:25 PM
Let's define a person as carfree only if they've never ridden in a motor vehicle. Then we could avoid the divisive issue of who is carfree and who is not. To me, the more interesting discussions are about the infrastructure and lifestyle issues relating to transportational cycling.
patc
12-31-06, 04:38 PM
Or the characters dominating the chatter on this list, who think riding a bike and living a lifestyle just like themselves is a necessary requirement to be considered "car-free".
Neither bike use nor "lifestyle" (whatever that means) are directly relevant to being car-free. Obviously, this being BikeForums.net, riding a bike is likely to be relevant to this specific forum.
Neither bike use nor "lifestyle" (whatever that means) are directly relevant to being car-free. Obviously, this being BikeForums.net, riding a bike is likely to be relevant to this specific forum.
patc
12-31-06, 04:55 PM
I think a trait of car free folks is the adaptation of not RELYING on cars all the time. During our recent snowstorm half the building didn't come to work because their cars were snowed in on side streets. No one even considered other options like walking to the bus stop, calling a cab, studded bike tires, carpooling with a friends snow friendly truck, etc. I see many options of transit, not just cars.
I would phrase it that its a trait of the car-dependent to be completely helpless without their cars. I have friends who won't take their car in for service unless they can book a rental that day!
Like you, I have had the experience of being the only one on-time, or only one to show up at all, during bad weather. Year after year, everyone would be surprised to see me, no matter how many times I told them my secret plan:
1- Check weather forecast the night before,
2- Leave home 20 mins earlier,
3- Take the bus.
It's not rocket science.
I would phrase it that its a trait of the car-dependent to be completely helpless without their cars. I have friends who won't take their car in for service unless they can book a rental that day!
Like you, I have had the experience of being the only one on-time, or only one to show up at all, during bad weather. Year after year, everyone would be surprised to see me, no matter how many times I told them my secret plan:
1- Check weather forecast the night before,
2- Leave home 20 mins earlier,
3- Take the bus.
It's not rocket science.
patc
12-31-06, 04:59 PM
Let's define a person as carfree only if they've never ridden in a motor vehicle. Then we could avoid the divisive issue of who is carfree and who is not. To me, the more interesting discussions are about the infrastructure and lifestyle issues relating to transportational cycling.
So, I've never owned a car or had a license, but you would not call me car-free because I have been on a city bus?!?
Both are interesting to me, but this forum is about being car-free. While transportational cycling does fit here, it is also discussed elsewhere, such as in the Commuting forum.
I am car-free. I am a car-free advocate. THAT is what I want to discuss here. In the absence of a mission-statement, FAQ, or guidelines for this specific forum I will go by the forum name - Living Car-Free - and the founding post.
So, I've never owned a car or had a license, but you would not call me car-free because I have been on a city bus?!?
Both are interesting to me, but this forum is about being car-free. While transportational cycling does fit here, it is also discussed elsewhere, such as in the Commuting forum.
I am car-free. I am a car-free advocate. THAT is what I want to discuss here. In the absence of a mission-statement, FAQ, or guidelines for this specific forum I will go by the forum name - Living Car-Free - and the founding post.
Roody
12-31-06, 05:09 PM
I don't think this has to be a divisive issue at all. Isn't it fair to assume that everyone on this forum fits one of these criteria?
Is totally carfree.
Is carfree to a large degree.
Is not, but wants to be carfree to a certain degree.
Has no plans to be carfree, but wants to reduce car use significantly.
Is there anybody who does NOT fit into one of those categories?
Is totally carfree.
Is carfree to a large degree.
Is not, but wants to be carfree to a certain degree.
Has no plans to be carfree, but wants to reduce car use significantly.
Is there anybody who does NOT fit into one of those categories?
patc
12-31-06, 05:12 PM
I don't think this has to be a divisive issue at all. Isn't it fair to assume that everyone on this forum fits one of these criteria?
In my experience, nothing is as divisive as agreeing on a definition or label... yet without such, even a discussion group is rapidly paralyzed (and advocacy or social service groups useless).
In my experience, nothing is as divisive as agreeing on a definition or label... yet without such, even a discussion group is rapidly paralyzed (and advocacy or social service groups useless).
Roody
12-31-06, 05:18 PM
In my experience, nothing is as divisive as agreeing on a definition or label... yet without such, even a discussion group is rapidly paralyzed (and advocacy or social service groups useless).
You didn't read my whole post because I stupidly hit the "Submit Reply" button before I was finished.:o
Agreeing on a definition can be unifying too--what is the common factor that we all share? If I remember right, some definitions are inclusive while others are exclusive.
You didn't read my whole post because I stupidly hit the "Submit Reply" button before I was finished.:o
Agreeing on a definition can be unifying too--what is the common factor that we all share? If I remember right, some definitions are inclusive while others are exclusive.
Roody
12-31-06, 06:15 PM
To me the motive is the most important part. A lot of people are car free for purely economic reasons.Such as lack of money or they live in a big city with good public transportation.
Other people are car free because of enviromental reasons and the misuse of limited natural resources.
So on that line of reasoning someone who is "car lite" may or may not be better at saving money or more interested in a small ecological footprint.
So what does it mean to be car-free? Is it not a question of intention or motive more than a matter of actual possesion of a car?
I think this is a crucial point. A lot of people ride utility bikes in my city, but when I asked a couple if they were carfree, I got blank stares and something like, "Well I don't have a car, if that's what you mean. If I did I wouldn't have had to ride this raggedyass bike." So I guess that carfree involves making a choice.
"Be not afraid of carfreedom; some are born carfree, some achieve carfreedom, but none have carfreedom thrust upon them."
Other people are car free because of enviromental reasons and the misuse of limited natural resources.
So on that line of reasoning someone who is "car lite" may or may not be better at saving money or more interested in a small ecological footprint.
So what does it mean to be car-free? Is it not a question of intention or motive more than a matter of actual possesion of a car?
I think this is a crucial point. A lot of people ride utility bikes in my city, but when I asked a couple if they were carfree, I got blank stares and something like, "Well I don't have a car, if that's what you mean. If I did I wouldn't have had to ride this raggedyass bike." So I guess that carfree involves making a choice.
"Be not afraid of carfreedom; some are born carfree, some achieve carfreedom, but none have carfreedom thrust upon them."
patc
12-31-06, 07:00 PM
You didn't read my whole post because I stupidly hit the "Submit Reply" button before I was finished.:o
:p Ok, I went back and read the full post. Rather changes the meaning.
Agreeing on a definition can be unifying too--what is the common factor that we all share? If I remember right, some definitions are inclusive while others are exclusive.
I agree. In fact I think most forums/groups/whatevers are better off agreeing on definitions ASAP. Yes, it is devisive, and you'll often have one or two people storm off, but in the long term you are better off. And yes, such a definition can be used to bring people together, but the process of ariving there is another matter.
:p Ok, I went back and read the full post. Rather changes the meaning.
Agreeing on a definition can be unifying too--what is the common factor that we all share? If I remember right, some definitions are inclusive while others are exclusive.
I agree. In fact I think most forums/groups/whatevers are better off agreeing on definitions ASAP. Yes, it is devisive, and you'll often have one or two people storm off, but in the long term you are better off. And yes, such a definition can be used to bring people together, but the process of ariving there is another matter.
patc
12-31-06, 07:01 PM
I think this is a crucial point. A lot of people ride utility bikes in my city, but when I asked a couple if they were carfree, I got blank stares and something like, "Well I don't have a car, if that's what you mean. If I did I wouldn't have had to ride this raggedyass bike." So I guess that carfree involves making a choice.
Car-free is also a term more often seen in advocacy groups than in the general population.
Last post of 2006, have a Happy New Year folks.
Car-free is also a term more often seen in advocacy groups than in the general population.
Last post of 2006, have a Happy New Year folks.
Slow Train
12-31-06, 07:04 PM
but none have carfreedom thrust upon them."
Well a few might after tonight if they don't watch how much they imbibe :p
Well a few might after tonight if they don't watch how much they imbibe :p
wheel
12-31-06, 11:56 PM
I like carless
I-Like-To-Bike
01-01-07, 07:19 AM
Neither bike use nor "lifestyle" (whatever that means) are directly relevant to being car-free. Obviously, this being BikeForums.net, riding a bike is likely to be relevant to this specific forum.
I certainly agree. I think also irrelevant to riding a bike and being BikeForums.net, are the endless posts ranting about macro economics, evils of "cager" culture, joys of simple-life/counter-culture lifestyles, environmental purity, TV watching, national politics, etc., etc., and all the other non-bike related agendas of the self appointed forum moderator wanna-be(s).
I certainly agree. I think also irrelevant to riding a bike and being BikeForums.net, are the endless posts ranting about macro economics, evils of "cager" culture, joys of simple-life/counter-culture lifestyles, environmental purity, TV watching, national politics, etc., etc., and all the other non-bike related agendas of the self appointed forum moderator wanna-be(s).
wahoonc
01-01-07, 07:27 AM
I don't think this has to be a divisive issue at all. Isn't it fair to assume that everyone on this forum fits one of these criteria?
Is totally carfree.
Is carfree to a large degree.
Is not, but wants to be carfree to a certain degree.
Has no plans to be carfree, but wants to reduce car use significantly.
Is there anybody who does NOT fit into one of those categories?
All of these work for me. All it boils down to is a matter of sematics. Personally I think Car Free is just that, does not own a car or use one on a regular basis. I consider my son to be car free, he does not own one, but rents one on occasion when needed. My daughter is car light, she only uses it once a month to drive to a town an hour a way for a specialists appointment and then to come home about 3-4 times a year. It is not particularly cost effective but there is no mass transit where she lives and works at this time in her life.
The only possible change I would make to Roody's list is the 3rd one "Is not, but is planning and working their way towards carfee" (that is me at the moment) I have been carfree in the past and still wonder what happened:eek: :p (got married and let my principles go to hell I guess)
Aaron:)
Is totally carfree.
Is carfree to a large degree.
Is not, but wants to be carfree to a certain degree.
Has no plans to be carfree, but wants to reduce car use significantly.
Is there anybody who does NOT fit into one of those categories?
All of these work for me. All it boils down to is a matter of sematics. Personally I think Car Free is just that, does not own a car or use one on a regular basis. I consider my son to be car free, he does not own one, but rents one on occasion when needed. My daughter is car light, she only uses it once a month to drive to a town an hour a way for a specialists appointment and then to come home about 3-4 times a year. It is not particularly cost effective but there is no mass transit where she lives and works at this time in her life.
The only possible change I would make to Roody's list is the 3rd one "Is not, but is planning and working their way towards carfee" (that is me at the moment) I have been carfree in the past and still wonder what happened:eek: :p (got married and let my principles go to hell I guess)
Aaron:)
I-Like-To-Bike
01-01-07, 07:34 AM
Neither bike use nor "lifestyle" (whatever that means) are directly relevant to being car-free. Obviously, this being BikeForums.net, riding a bike is likely to be relevant to this specific forum.
Obviously, equally irrelevant to the consensus builders of this list are the the vast majority of Car-Free adults who actually are living car-free in urban areas, but not necessarily by choice - people (especially lower income families) dependent on public transportation.
Obviously, equally irrelevant to the consensus builders of this list are the the vast majority of Car-Free adults who actually are living car-free in urban areas, but not necessarily by choice - people (especially lower income families) dependent on public transportation.
cooker
01-01-07, 08:24 AM
I certainly agree. I think also irrelevant to riding a bike and being BikeForums.net, are the endless posts ranting about macro economics, evils of "cager" culture, joys of simple-life/counter-culture lifestyles, environmental purity, TV watching, national politics, etc., etc., and all the other non-bike related agendas of the self appointed forum moderator wanna-be(s).
And why are you setting yourself up as agenda police? Some people may ride bikes for the pure joy of riding bikes, but many others may see their riding as part of a broader lifestyle or political commitment, and still others may become politicized by riding. Finally some may simply like hanging out with fellow cyclists, and feel that with these cycling buddies they can talk about anything they wish.
And why are you setting yourself up as agenda police? Some people may ride bikes for the pure joy of riding bikes, but many others may see their riding as part of a broader lifestyle or political commitment, and still others may become politicized by riding. Finally some may simply like hanging out with fellow cyclists, and feel that with these cycling buddies they can talk about anything they wish.
Roody
01-01-07, 08:52 AM
I certainly agree. I think also irrelevant to riding a bike and being BikeForums.net, are the endless posts ranting about macro economics, evils of "cager" culture, joys of simple-life/counter-culture lifestyles, environmental purity, TV watching, national politics, etc., etc., and all the other non-bike related agendas of the self appointed forum moderator wanna-be(s).
Out of all the posts you honor us with, I bet that fewer than 10 per cent are even remotely related to bikes or cycling. The bulk of your musings are occasionally amusing, often bitter and vindictive, almost never bike-relevant. But Happy New Year, DAAAAH-LING!!!!
Out of all the posts you honor us with, I bet that fewer than 10 per cent are even remotely related to bikes or cycling. The bulk of your musings are occasionally amusing, often bitter and vindictive, almost never bike-relevant. But Happy New Year, DAAAAH-LING!!!!
I-Like-To-Bike
01-01-07, 11:00 AM
And why are you setting yourself up as agenda police? Some people may ride bikes for the pure joy of riding bikes, but many others may see their riding as part of a broader lifestyle or political commitment, and still others may become politicized by riding. Finally some may simply like hanging out with fellow cyclists, and feel that with these cycling buddies they can talk about anything they wish.
Who is setting themselves up as an agenda policeman? Certainly not me. I'm just calling self righteous spades, "self-righteous spades" when I see "moralists" associating their view of lifestyle choices as a bicycling related issue. Unfortunately some believe ignoring the obvious or reality, provides a validation of their over-the-top rants about car-free purity.
Who is setting themselves up as an agenda policeman? Certainly not me. I'm just calling self righteous spades, "self-righteous spades" when I see "moralists" associating their view of lifestyle choices as a bicycling related issue. Unfortunately some believe ignoring the obvious or reality, provides a validation of their over-the-top rants about car-free purity.
patc
01-01-07, 12:22 PM
I like carless
I don't. Its missing the political tone.
I don't. Its missing the political tone.
firemaplegirl
01-01-07, 10:23 PM
I voted 'yes' I don't own a car on the poll, however I find that 'car free' definition fascinating. Although I don't currently own a car, I use one on an almost daily basis for transportation. I'm scaling back by riding my bike to the park and ride on the days that I go downtown, but for the time being will continue to use the car on days that I go to an adjacent suburb. In contrast when I lived in Seattle, I had a car titled in my name - parked about 350 miles from where I lived. While I wouldn't have been considered car free under the terms of the poll, I relied on public transit and my own two feet to get everywhere. Once in a great while a friend would help me out and pick up a bag of cat food and kitty litter because they were difficult to haul. Certainly I think I was more 'car free' then than I am now.
Roody
01-01-07, 11:53 PM
I like carless
At first glance I don't like it. But maybe it will grow on me if you explain why you like it.....
At first glance I don't like it. But maybe it will grow on me if you explain why you like it.....
hockeyteeth
01-02-07, 07:07 AM
What does "carfree" mean? For that matter, what does "car" mean?
"So you're saying everything is the same, even if it's different?" - I Heart Huckabees
I consider myself carfree because I never drive a car. I do own one, though, because it was a gift from my family and I don't want to spurn them by selling it. If I could, I would sell it and buy a few nice things for my bike.
"So you're saying everything is the same, even if it's different?" - I Heart Huckabees
I consider myself carfree because I never drive a car. I do own one, though, because it was a gift from my family and I don't want to spurn them by selling it. If I could, I would sell it and buy a few nice things for my bike.
cooker
01-02-07, 10:23 AM
"So you're saying everything is the same, even if it's different?" - I Heart Huckabees
I consider myself carfree because I never drive a car. I do own one, though, because it was a gift from my family and I don't want to spurn them by selling it. If I could, I would sell it and buy a few nice things for my bike.
Are you paying insurance or parking or other recurring fees on it?
I consider myself carfree because I never drive a car. I do own one, though, because it was a gift from my family and I don't want to spurn them by selling it. If I could, I would sell it and buy a few nice things for my bike.
Are you paying insurance or parking or other recurring fees on it?
Spaceman Spiff
01-03-07, 05:26 PM
My thoughts:
1) If you do not have a car but rent one rarely for short periods of time, you are still carfree.
2) If you do not have a car but your job requires you to regularly drive a car, for example you're a taxi driver, you are still carfree.
3) If you're in the same situation as above, however the company also allows you to take the car home and use it for your own personal purposes, then you are not carfree.
4) If you do not own a car but have regular access to someone else's car for your own personal use, you are not carfree.
5) If you do not have a car but your wife/husband/girlfriend/parent or some other person in your house does and drives you around with it, you are not carfree, even if you do not drive it yourself.
6) If you have a car but it cannot be driven on the road (whether due to mechanical or legal reasons) then you are carfree.
7) If you own some other motorized vehicle that cannot be practically driven around town, such as a very large truck or a bulldozer, you are carfree.
1) If you do not have a car but rent one rarely for short periods of time, you are still carfree.
2) If you do not have a car but your job requires you to regularly drive a car, for example you're a taxi driver, you are still carfree.
3) If you're in the same situation as above, however the company also allows you to take the car home and use it for your own personal purposes, then you are not carfree.
4) If you do not own a car but have regular access to someone else's car for your own personal use, you are not carfree.
5) If you do not have a car but your wife/husband/girlfriend/parent or some other person in your house does and drives you around with it, you are not carfree, even if you do not drive it yourself.
6) If you have a car but it cannot be driven on the road (whether due to mechanical or legal reasons) then you are carfree.
7) If you own some other motorized vehicle that cannot be practically driven around town, such as a very large truck or a bulldozer, you are carfree.
jamesdenver
01-04-07, 10:07 PM
7) If you own some other motorized vehicle that cannot be practically driven around town, such as a very large truck or a bulldozer, you are carfree.
Hummer owners are car free?
Hummer owners are car free?
Roody
01-05-07, 11:35 AM
7) If you own some other motorized vehicle that cannot be practically driven around town, such as a very large truck or a bulldozer, you are carfree.
Hummer owners are car free?
:roflmao: :roflmao:
Good one james!
Hummer owners are car free?
:roflmao: :roflmao:
Good one james!
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