Touring - What's with all the wacko crazy weapons comments on a BIKE TOURING forum?!?

WELL?? Why all this discussion about carrying guns on your HOLIDAYS?? :mad:

I can understand having a shottie or a rifle in the ute if you are going on a hunting trip, or even if you work on a farm to keep the wildlife at bay. However, the only reason to take a handgun is if you expect to use it against other people. Is your home town so violent that you expect to have to shoot people to survive? (Maybe it is that bad in Joberg or Washington DC... but I doubt it.)

I've only ever heard (1st hand) of individuals (not banks/7-11s) being robbed at gunpoint in Russia, South Africa and the USA. In the USA and SAfrica, handing across the wallet was the end of it. In Russia, my uncle was robbed by aquaintances of his armed security guard :eek: . They were more thorough - a full pat-down, and they took his watch and rings as well.

What about physical threat? Has anyone, first-hand, non-urban-legend, ACTUALLY been in a situation where a firearm was the only way to get out of trouble? Has anyone ACTUALLY been in a situation where this worked, rather than escalating the situation and getting someone shot or killed? Has anyone ACTUALLY fought off a brown bear or crocodile or hippo with a handgun?

I rather suspect most of the pro-gun comments are from those who consider they have a "right" to travel fully armed wherever they want to - regardless of local laws, customs and common sense.


--- end rant ---

Ever read Full Tilt? Dervela Murphy puls our her hand gun three times atleast, One each for: wolves (killed two), bike theives (three guys with shovels) , and an attempted ****** (Iran cop). Mind you it was the Middle East in the 60's.


jim

Americans seem to like to carry guns from things I've read on various threads on the forums ... they seem to think they can carry them anywhere, and take them to any country ... they seem to think they would actually use them in a "problematic" situation.

Speaking as a Canadian, where carrying around handguns is illegal, I wouldn't dream of ever owning a gun, taking a gun to another country, or using a gun.

I think it is digusting when people immediately bring guns up as the solution to all "problematic" situations ..... and interestingly enough ..... although many Americans talk about carrying and using guns, I have met many Americans, none of whom actually do carry a gun. Maybe it's all talk.

As an American I can speak to this.
We all carry guns, all the time, if someone does or says something we don't like, out come the guns. We shoot and shoot until somebody gets killed, it's just our way. We don't think or discuss, we just shoot, don't you guys get the BBC, they will tell you it's true. It's amazing there's anyone left here. :rolleyes:

Americans seem to like to carry guns from things I've read on various threads on the forums ... they seem to think they can carry them anywhere, and take them to any country ... they seem to think they would actually use them in a "problematic" situation.

Speaking as a Canadian, where carrying around handguns is illegal, I wouldn't dream of ever owning a gun, taking a gun to another country, or using a gun.

I think it is digusting when people immediately bring guns up as the solution to all "problematic" situations ..... and interestingly enough ..... although many Americans talk about carrying and using guns, I have met many Americans, none of whom actually do carry a gun. Maybe it's all talk.

It's mostly about the mythic "West". Many of our movies of the 30's to present are about getting justice without all that messiness of courts. Problem is, it never happened. One of the first thing to be set up in the mining camps of Colorado (and any other settlement) was courts to deal with disputes and crimes. But courts don't make for good movies ;)

I am a gun user and a gun owner. That being said I also live by the personal philosophy that those that live by the sword, die by the sword. I don't normally carry a handgun I have a concealed carry permit in NC, I needed it for a specific job I used to do. I no longer do that job. I am of the belief that if you are aware of your surroundings and attempt to keep yourself out of the way of trouble you will normally succeed, so far it has worked for over 40 years.:p To me a gun is a tool like a bicycle or a hammer. There is a place they can and should be used, but too many people use them as a substitute for good sense or are hell bent on causing trouble.

Aaron:)

Where are all these threads?

Come on that's all defeatist nonsense. There isn't much that a cop can do with a gun that a civilian can't do. Most of the tactics and equipment changes up to maybe 1990 were actually developed by private citizens. I don't think most of the negative coments about what works or doesn't works would be repeated if the theoretical subject was a cop. Has a cop ever solved a personal or social problem with a hand gun, hell yes. The stats in the US about crimianl homocides are appauling, but what is often overlooked is the additional proportion of them that are actually in the justifiable or excusable range. Numbers can range to as high as 20%, 2-1 ratio of the police rate of homicide.

I've lived in a number of places without the extremes of either peace or violence that can exist. I devide them into three catagories. 1) So safe nobody cares who owns a gun. That would be parts of Canada that I grew up in where a kid could buy a rifle in a hardware store and shoot it at school. Where CIL the paint company provided free amunition. Where the Lieutenant Govenor gave us our shooting medals. Older friends remember laxer times when you could carry onto the plane your shotguns for a hunting trip out west. 2) Medium would be Canada today where there is little to be afraid of but nobody trusts anyone. Want to shelve books at the school library, get a police check. Want to own a gun go through some BS that still leaves us with a huge pile of the most dangerous guns in private hands. 3) Harsher would be in Belfast where my people are from. The UK has hard gun rules, and they are tougher in NI, but none the less legal personal handgun ownership was high during the troubles because when there are people out to kill each other they find a way to issue permits.

Overall though, I'm the kind of person who doesn't even like to carry a pen around in my pockets. I'm certainly not going to carry 2-4 pounds of steel on my hip just on the extreme longshot that there will be some violence in the general area. Heck I'm home with the kids on new years for goodness sake.

Americans seem to like to carry guns from things I've read on various threads on the forums ... they seem to think they can carry them anywhere, and take them to any country ... they seem to think they would actually use them in a "problematic" situation.

Speaking as a Canadian, where carrying around handguns is illegal, I wouldn't dream of ever owning a gun, taking a gun to another country, or using a gun.

I think it is digusting when people immediately bring guns up as the solution to all "problematic" situations ..... and interestingly enough ..... although many Americans talk about carrying and using guns, I have met many Americans, none of whom actually do carry a gun. Maybe it's all talk.

While I agree with your sentiments, I should point out that it's not limited to Americans. Some years ago Australia brought in substantially tighter gun controls than it had before, and the Federal government was actually offering to buy these guns from people for $500. Despite this, I know of a number of people (most of them were Queenslanders for the record) who, in their infinite "wisdom", decided that burying their gun in the back yard would be a better option. I think half of Queensland still has some ridiculous delusion about going to war with Canberra.

"I can understand having a shottie or a rifle in the ute if you are going on a hunting trip, or even if you work on a farm to keep the wildlife at bay. However, the only reason to take a handgun is if you expect to use it against other people"

That's not true (though it certainly is the best defensive tool know). In the uses you mention a handgun has plenty of advantages, the main one being it can be carried and kept to hand more easily than any other. It has a short range in most configurations, but on my farm even if I wanted to collect a deer, I would normally be under 30 yards from it. For off-farm hunting where the terrain isn't known range has a large advantage. Even so, normally shooters figure the 357 is a 50 yard deer weapon, the 44 is considereably longer range, and various hunting configured handguns are good out to 200 yards. That's a lot of sporting and non-sporting options. The only significant disadvantage a handgun has is that it is terribly noisy in all cases and particularly in the heavier loading. You are going to loose hearing. But that's probably worth it in the rushed situations, and hearing protection can be worn otherwise. It's also more difficult to learn to use.

Overall the main reason handguns aren't "useful" is because of regulatory controls. Here in Canada the only two accepted uses are target type shooting and collecting. This ensures a large number of people actually own handguns in their private homes, but only to admire them or use them to punch holes in paper at a range. A very few others have safety based permits for self-defence from animals or know threats. So someone can say handguns aren't useful (at least within the context of firearm uses in general) simply because that's the regulated reality.

Make mental note: Avoid any further arguments, taunts or sarcasm within earshot of Peterpan1.

Man... you and people like you scare the living daylights out of me. The fact that you talk like that makes me feel that way.

"Make mental note: Avoid any further arguments, taunts or sarcasm within earshot of Peterpan1.

Man... you and people like you scare the living daylights out of me. The fact that you talk like that makes me feel that way."

What scares you though? ...

edit: got my answer below.

As an American I can speak to this.
We all carry guns, all the time, if someone does or says something we don't like, out come the guns. We shoot and shoot until somebody gets killed, it's just our way. We don't think or discuss, we just shoot, don't you guys get the BBC, they will tell you it's true. It's amazing there's anyone left here. :rolleyes:
What he said.

Why does it bother you crybabies so bad what we do in our own country? I honestly can't find any of these threads where Americans are advocating carrying guns in other countries, and I think some of you idiots should be more concerned with some of the crap that goes on in your own countries. Oops, gotta go, I'm being shot at...

Oh, gee .... a thread about firearms. How lovely.

Mods: care to move this to politics ... or somewhere??

Happy New Year, all!!!

Oh, gee .... a thread about firearms. How lovely.

Mods: care to move this to politics ... or somewhere??

Happy New Year, all!!!


I agree!!

What he said.

Why does it bother you crybabies so bad what we do in our own country? I honestly can't find any of these threads where Americans are advocating carrying guns in other countries, and I think some of you idiots should be more concerned with some of the crap that goes on in your own countries. Oops, gotta go, I'm being shot at...
errr.... right next door in the bike-for-africa thread is one.

And it must be one of your own shootin' at ya... coz knives have become "our" weapon of choice.

What's political about this. I haven't heard one mention about voting, parties. I don't know where the OP got the idea there was a lot of this kind of talk in touring, but if there is any truth to it surely it isn't going to be worked out in the politics section. And if he is wrong on that score then this thread should be a whole lot shorter than it currently is.

I'll remove the London post since it probably is political in the hands of the original writer.

Thanks Rowan. I had mostly avoided that thread. Still I feel a person headed to Africa better not be too squeamish about guns. Can't think of too many countries that will let you ride with one though. SA used to allow visitors to carry.

Ummmmm ........ this is the touring forum!! Remember touring? That's where we go to other countries to cycle around, visit new places, enjoy ourselves! That's where we go to other countries who have may have vastly different outlooks than we do on the possession of weapons ... where they have different laws ... where we might not want to get entangled in their court systems. That's where we go to other countries by means of airlines who have rather strict rules about carrying weapons.

Weapons, such as guns, are NOT an option for cycle-tourists.

I'm going to leave this thread here for now as long as the discussion remains civil and respectful to both sides of the argument.

Oh, gee .... a thread about firearms. How lovely.

Mods: care to move this to politics ... or somewhere??

Happy New Year, all!!! Mods? Here? Mate, they're all too busy having their own brand of fun over in Foo.

If it should go anywhere, maybe Advocacy and Safety... ;)

Edit: Oops... sorry cuda... where did you come from? :D

Machka, you go to other countries. I try to avoid it, not necesarilly happy about it, but that's how it is for now. I'm not entirely convinced Canada bans carrying firearms when we are touring. It would get pretty tricky to do it legally when one considers prohibitions against firearms in parks, or tresspassing while armed, if one wanted to stealth camp. But I think if a person wanted to do it on a legal basis, just so they could tell their children, there is probably a way to do it with a rifle. I wouldn't immediately assume it has zero relevance.

Countries that have different outlooks includes some that are more lax, like the US and some other countries also. Airlines don't really stop one carrying weapons, it's getting tighter, but you can check weapons on many airlines legally, and there tends to be a corelation between national airlines that allow it, with destinations that permit it.

Generally I think people attrack a lot of what they want. And I don't want confrontatoin, am not going to train or equip for it.

How many of you have been shot at while on tour in the USA? Be honest.

By the way, I don't think it's appropriate to carry a handgun on a tour, at home or abroad. I also don't think it's appropriate to start a troll from scratch about what troglodytes US citizens are because they have guns, from people I'm actually assuming haven't spent much time here. Stop watching Miami Vice and cowboy movies for a while before you do come, though, so you won't wet your spandex everytime a car backfires.

Live your own lives, work on your own countries, we'll worry about ours.

Kris, go read the advice that is being handed out on the bike-to-Africa thread by an American to an Australian who isn't going anywhere near your country. Perhaps you should provide your countryman with the same advice your are gratuitously handing out to others.

Looks to me like a nice long thread where 99% of the posters are being egged on by a couple of kooks/trolls. Everybody knows you can't get a gun on board a flight, smuggle it through customs, and into a foreign country without answering some serious questions, doing some time and/or having your name put on a list. Some guy in New Jersey and another in Texas have been reading too much Tom Clancy, and are having everyone on.

Also, I would've stopped reading when I read the OP was going to tour Africa on a Huffy. :)

"Looks to me like a nice long thread where 99% of the posters are being egged on by a couple of kooks/trolls. Everybody knows you can't get a gun on board a flight, smuggle it through customs, and into a foreign country without answering some serious questions, doing some time and/or having your name put on a list."

Well apparently you can't record Peace Train without getting your name on a list, it's a tough world. You can't get a bike on board a flight if that means, to you, in the cabin. As far as carrying it in the hold, some airlines allow it others don't. If a country is serious about hosting sport hunters there are flights coming in with guns in the hold all the time. But you are right, the chance of getting a carry permit in most countries is remote.

Did read an interesting book about a guy who travelled by 13 foot boat, down from alberta, out the mississipi and on through south america. He carried a pistol. Fended off pirates, I guess he sorta travelled under the radar. Until comparatively recently visitors in the US could get carry permits for handguns, however that was banned either by Bush or Clinton. We used to take guns on trips through the US, all the time until a few years back. Usually just travelling from one destination in Canada to another, tacking a short cut. But those rules have changed. Mostly it's retaliation against similar rules in Canada.

Its not a Huffy KrisPistofferson, though I would say its thanks to some of the crew on this forum who did bother to reply that it isn't... I had a guy tell me to go buy one from a department store (a guy employed at a LBS which was recommended to me by numerous cyclists)

And don't worry Rowan, well at least don't worry about the gun part anyway (!)... I'm not going to be disassembling a gun and then trying to smuggle it into Africa with me. I'm not some crack arms expert. I won't be bringing any sort of weapon with me because I don't want said weapon to be used on me... The only thing I was thinking about bringing was a personal distress alarm to use if I get chased by doggs...

And hey... in terms of my cycling career, I just used the acronym LBS for the first time ever! I'm getting this downnn!

I bet there are 100 forum members who are "fanatically" against firearms to the 1 member who is "fanatically" pro-gun. Let's keep things in perspective here.

In America we trust our citizens enough to own and use of most types of firearms. With that trust comes certain unwanted consequences (violent criminals are a fact of all countries) but the trust remains. Slowly but surely that trust is fading and soon I'm sure that firearm ownership will be left to just the criminals. That will make things better.

I met several Europeans on my cross country (USA) tour and each had nearly identical impressions of the US before they arrived and after they had been here a few months. I don't even have to describe to you how their opinions changed because you already know. I didn't ask, they went out of their way to to express their appreciation for our country and all the kindness they experienced.

The USA is the country everyone loves to hate, both outside the country and within, but despite the hate, we remain a group of kind and generous people.

"And hey... in terms of my cycling career, I just used the acronym LBS for the first time ever! I'm getting this downnn!"

ROFLHOLCCF:roflmao:

I've only ever heard (1st hand) of individuals (not banks/7-11s) being robbed at gunpoint in Russia, South Africa and the USA. In the USA and SAfrica, handing across the wallet was the end of it. . .

Cave,

I lived in South Africa for 5 years, I know of numerous people who were robbed at gunpoint,
including my wife. While I lived there all crime was violent, what was variable was the
degree of violence done during the crime, which ranged from pistol whipped to being shot. I knew a few people who were murdered after giving up their vehicles, money or other property. Giving up a wallet is
unfortunately not the end of it.

Marty

Looks to me like a nice long thread where 99% of the posters are being egged on by a couple of kooks/trolls. Everybody knows you can't get a gun on board a flight, smuggle it through customs, and into a foreign country without answering some serious questions, doing some time and/or having your name put on a list. Some guy in New Jersey and another in Texas have been reading too much Tom Clancy, and are having everyone on.

That sums it up nicely

Despite this, I know of a number of people (most of them were Queenslanders for the record) who, in their infinite "wisdom", decided that burying their gun in the back yard would be a better option.

Silly Aussies, backyards are for burying pets, wives and husbands, not guns. :eek:

Peterpan1: Are you referring to Paddle to the Amazon, father-son thing. If so, he never pulled the gun out, and they lost it in a capsize(i think) off the coast of mexico.

Silly Aussies, backyards are for burying pets, wives and husbands, not guns. :eek:
:roflmao:

Nice one, but hey! Don't brand all Aussies as Queenslanders -- we've got our pride as well!

Back to topic... Cave did ask a relevant question... let's be more specific... how many people who have posted here carry a concealed weapon, and have used it, and what was the result?

I think the thrust of his original post was: Is it really "all talk", or do you, as representative Americans, actually do what you say with guns?

(Having been on these forums a long time, I do know there are quite a few members in other forums who have stated that they do).

I think the thrust of his original post was: Is it really "all talk", or do you, as representative Americans, actually do what you say with guns?
Actually, I think the thrust of his post is that he can't comprehend why anyone would bring a weapon on tour.

By the way, you can transport a gun & ammo on a plane as checked luggage, but you need to declare it, and it's up to you to know the laws at your destination. And it is legal to bring a weapon into some countries -- e.g. South Africa allows it, Kenya requires a permit, etc. I believe you can even temporarily import firearms into Canada if you have the right paperwork. So if the laws of your destination allow it, you can legally carry a sidearm on your travels.

As to whether or not that's a good idea -- well, carry on....

I presume the "wacko" comments are a response to what others see as an opposing wacko thought. I think there are so many misconceptions out there about guns in the US and the perceived need to carry one.

First, there are few places where one would consider a gun "necessary" for defense, and that would be in a handful of urban neighborhoods where no one would likely be touring anyway, maybe .02% of the country, and even then, most of those areas are only sketchy at night. Who's travelling through Detroit, Houston or East St Louis at night, let alone camping there? Incidentally, most areas with gun problems have outlawed guns ayway, and we see what good that's done. Prohibition will never stop the black market.

Second, most of the gun violence is targeted, not random. It's one thug shooting/revenging another, or a spouse/boyfriend/family member going nuts. There aren't gangs of bandits roaming the streets looking to rob someone at gunpoint, which is the feeling I get that some outsiders have.

Third, I don't feel the need to carry a weapon in the US, but if it makes someone else comfortable, that's their prerogative. Just don't take someone else's perceived need to carry as an indictment on the safety of travel in the US.

I ran up on what's left of this deer today (1-1-07) on a rail-trail/MUP.
I have no ideal what killed and chewed on it but if it was big enough to take down a healthy deer and chew its ribs off as well as most of the others parts it could certainly do lots of damage to me as well. It could have been a Dog, Coyote, Panther, Mountain Lion, or even a Bear as we have a good population of all types of these predators roaming around the countryside. Having a gun ensures your proper place in the food chain.
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3609/doetq4.jpg

I ran up on what's left of this deer today (1-1-07) on a rail-trail/MUP.
I have no ideal what killed and chewed on it but if it was big enough to take down a healthy deer and chew its ribs off as well as most of the others parts it could certainly do lots of damage to me as well. It could have been a Dog, Coyote, Panther, Mountain Lion, or even a Bear as we have a good population of all types of these predators roaming around the countryside. Having a gun ensures your proper place in the food chain.


Wow, I'm pro gun, but you're wack. Having a gun doesn't ensure anything unless you know how to use it. and, where the hell are you going to keep it that it would be useful? I think park rangers frown upon wearing a holster on the hip. There is zero reason to carry a gun on tour. I keep one in my house, where i am much more "concerned" that something might warrant it's use then when I am wandering around.

RiotBoi "Three Years in a Twelve-Foot Boat" is the title I believe. He does brandish the pistol around pirates or something like that. But one could always say that it was just as likely to peak their interest as to have delivered him. Still he is the one who sailed and rowed to Columbia not me.

Wow, I'm pro gun, but you're wack. Having a gun doesn't ensure anything unless you know how to use it. and, where the hell are you going to keep it that it would be useful? I think park rangers frown upon wearing a holster on the hip. There is zero reason to carry a gun on tour. I keep one in my house, where i am much more "concerned" that something might warrant it's use then when I am wandering around.
38 snub nose in a pannier made from a military gasmask bag. It has a pocket the pistol fits in nicely and I can reach back and pull it out while moving. Alabama mandates training and provides it when you apply for a concealed carry permit. Having been in the Navy I went through a small weapons class as well so I do know how to use it. I've only had to pull and use it once on a vicious dog that was attacking a runner.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/8808/gaspannierip2.jpg

I ran up on what's left of this deer today (1-1-07) on a rail-trail/MUP.
I have no ideal what killed and chewed on it but if it was big enough to take down a healthy deer and chew its ribs off as well as most of the others parts it could certainly do lots of damage to me as well. It could have been a Dog, Coyote, Panther, Mountain Lion, or even a Bear as we have a good population of all types of these predators roaming around the countryside. Having a gun ensures your proper place in the food chain.
http://img363.imageshack.us/img363/3609/doetq4.jpg
Everyone I know who has encountered a bear while camping has simply made a lot of noise and the bear just scampered away.....

Everyone I know who has encountered a bear while camping has simply made a lot of noise and the bear just scampered away.....
Firing a gun makes noise..

Firing a gun makes noise..
Somehow I don't think that's what n4zou had in mind.....

They make holsters that mount on ATV handlebars, sounds perfect for a pistol on your bike. If you high it it might be conceiled carry which is a hwole other range of issues.

Americans seem to like to carry guns from things I've read on various threads on the forums ... they seem to think they can carry them anywhere, and take them to any country ... they seem to think they would actually use them in a "problematic" situation.

Speaking as a Canadian, where carrying around handguns is illegal, I wouldn't dream of ever owning a gun, taking a gun to another country, or using a gun.
A lot of Americans carry guns all the time and they never have to use them because they know that they can protect themselves.

A LOT of Canadians also carry handguns for the same reasons and also for the same reasons never have to use them.

I'm 6'4" and 200 lbs so I don't have much to worry about. My size generally discourages most would be robbers. But there are plenty of people in the world that worry about these things and if a gun makes them feel safer more power to them as long as they don't abuse it.

this dude came into work today, he was a South African who I got the impression hadn't lived there for a long time. He told me he never got hurt whilst traveling in Africa because he carried a gun (or two or three), I probably should have asked him if he'd ever actually used one though... Not entirely relevant, but I was just htinking, there's someone for you who carries a gun or three whilst traveling...

I ran up on what's left of this deer today (1-1-07) on a rail-trail/MUP.
I have no ideal what killed and chewed on it but if it was big enough to take down a healthy deer and chew its ribs off as well as most of the others parts it could certainly do lots of damage to me as well. [...]Having a gun ensures your proper place in the food chain.
IF that deer was killed by an attacking animal, it obviously did not see it coming before it was too late. I very much doubt an average cycle tourist could do any better in terms of reaction time and situational awareness. A cyclist would be lucky to realise something's hit him, let alone start to defend himself. Having a gun ensures nothing, IMHO.

And +1 on the comments regarding legality of weapons in foreign countries. I've seen suggestions on these Forums to "carry mace to Europe", with no consideration as to whether or not that is actually legal (as a blanket statement, it's not). Such suggestions seem to be powered by the idea that perceived personal safety is more important than legal mumbo-jumbo. To me, that is ill-adviced risk management. There are bigger risks to worry about, and also other (legal) ways to reduce this particular risk.

--J

:roflmao:

Nice one, but hey! Don't brand all Aussies as Queenslanders -- we've got our pride as well!

Yep, I'll support him on that one.

(Born and bred in NSW here).

I agree that the topic isn’t optimistic for bike touring forum. However, I think that self-defense problem maybe actual, if one is going to tour not only safe areas of western world. There are many people here who personally don’t eliminate this possibility and I am one of them.

I think, self-defense is a tactic, mainly, not to be in wrong place at wrong time. Self-defense begins when you are thinking about what I would do if... I used to it at home so that isn’t something unusual for me while on tour in third world also.

I have never had personal encounters with crime, except that once … in Prague. We leaved for Moscow that evening after our bike tour of Czech. I was alone when was returning to the railway station from the shop at 8 p.m. not too late I thing. Suddenly I got seen four gypsies in front of me and nobody around on the evening street. One of them rude stretched his arm at my face and tried to stop me or to provoke an encounter. He said something in Czech, I didn’t understand what. Other guys were at some distance behind him. It got clear that I had only several seconds before they would have surrounded me. So I evaded first guy’s arm saying to him “No” in Czech and continued to go fast through others. I saw that they looked at each other, were surprised, and didn’t know what to do. Probably I had broken their simple plan. Strange feeling… I don’t know why, but I have never felt myself so unsafe like in Prague that evening. Police control is much tougher in such places in Moscow. However, I’m sure that the story I have told is not the reason not to go to Czech.

Some places are potentially dangerous in Moscow. One instance is suburb trains. I get to suburb by them for cycling. We know about criminal accidents that relatively seldom happen there from our local news. However, this is not a reason not to use these trains for millions people who get to work by them every day. So I have a concealed carry permit for my civilian (a bit weaken) handgun.

I have been reading the episode on “Bike for Africa” thread about the incident with Barbara Savage. I think that was a real self-defense situation. Her husband’s action was fine, respect. It got clear for attackers that they would get a resistance. That was enough and that has saved the travelers. I think there is no possibility to eliminate crime 100% on tour in police control free poor areas. So your single chance is to broke a criminal plan if your caution was not enough.

My resume is. Self-defense as a legal method of surviving - YES, but illegal weapon – NO. Everything, which can be classified as prohibited cold steel arms, according to the law abroad or at home – NO. If something (touring folded knife for example) is not classified as prohibited cold steel arms and if you have a certificate from the shop on it to carry free (for Russia), it can be used for self-defense in case this is legal according to the local law in concrete circumstances. However, if you carry a knife this will always be against you in cop’s eyes, because there are many free legal non-lethal means of self-defense like spays in Russia.

As to practice, you must keep in mind, that to prove your self-defense in our court (in Russia) would be VERY difficult, if an attacker had serious injurious as result of your actions.
“Who of participants of the encounter will be imprisoned?...”
“That who is still alive…”
That is common practice of our courts, and people struggle here for their right of self-defense, because that is the part of personal freedom. That is why our experts on the subject and even cops advise so far to leave the place of the incident before police coming despite this is illegal…

I think that unsupported bike touring in third world has some criminal risk always because of poverty and corruption there. I mean towns, not countryside mainly. Thus, if this is not acceptable one should not go there. Otherwise, one should be ready to improvise in every potential dangerous situation, keeping in mind all possible consequences.
Personally, I will go there, because I love this part of the world and people from there. However, there are some places in this world, including Russia, where I will not go on bike tour unless and until economical and political situation will be improved.

Alexey

Peter: different books, you should check out Paddle to the Amazon though. Winnipeg canada to the mouth of the amazon in a 21 foot canoe.