"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Fred Behavior Observation #32

I'm on the local fast Sunday ride today. 40-50º weather, warm for January in NY, good turnout, mostly hardcore racers, several fast Freds, etc. Flat terrain. The ride today was utterly ballistic for January. The peloton is mostly older (35+) racers, mostly Cat 2/3, a few younger Cat 2/3/4. But generally lots of race experience. I was surprised at the speed today for January; it was more like a ride in May. I had to concentrate to hold on when things strung out a few times, but was never pressed to the redline. It's apparent that the warm weather has allowed much more riding than usual for mid-winter; the overall fitness level of the local peloton shows it.

At one point this strong rider I've ridden with plenty of times is taking the pull in front of me. Now every other rider (all experienced racers) had taken a turn at the front, pulled for 3-20 seconds and flicked the elbow, but when I realized it was this guy I said to myself 'oh boy, here we go, never-ending Fred pull'. And that's what we got. It really was a graphic illustration of how pointless this type of riding can be. Here's why:

• If you're trying to propel a breakaway or a chase, it might make sense. This was not the situation. Just a guy hammering at the front either because he enjoys it or he doesn't know better.

• This is a 40 mile ride, and this guy typically rides strong in the first half. But the big boys on this ride don't really turn up the gas until the final 10 miles. And that's when you need the watts left in your legs.

• The guy isn't doing the rider behind him any favors either in this situation. I was putting too much energy to hold his wheel when all I want to do in this scenario is get on the front, pull through, pull over, and fade back and recover: I'm always keeping the last 30 mins. of this ride in mind. It's all about preserving your calories for later on when you'll surely need it.

• On top of all this, I realized we were 250 meters from a STOP sign that was going to pause the ride anyway. I just shooked my head, backed off and the ride quickly rolled up to the intersection. We were all out of our collective misery for the moment.

The guys on this ride who are stronger and faster would never expend energy in that manner on a competitive ride. And this 'Fred' is actually talented, a strong rider. He is certainly fast enough for this ride. But he might find more snap at the end if he figured out that hammering for the sake of hammering can sometimes be counter productive for you and for the guys behind you.

And that's the Fred pattern. It's more about HOW you ride to me than how fast you ride. I suppose if you race on a team you have guys smacking upside the head after enough races saying 'why the hell would you DO that??' and you learn. I did. And when I start racing again in 2007 maybe they'll be smacking me upside the head again, even though I'll be racing unattached. Who knows? If enough guys smack me enough times maybe I'll join THEIR club : ).

condense to 4 lines, pls.

no one's gonna read all that.

It is very frustrating to have a guy out there just towing away. To many riders, they feel pride in being able to pull the pack. When I first started racing, there were always new guys who would brag about towing the whole field, but then got pissed off that people would actually have the audacity to sprint against them at the end of the race/ride, and wondered why they weren't winning races if they are able to tow the pack around for the entire race.

Problem is, someone pulling at the front just slows the whole group down. Usually, they don't know how to ride a circular paceline or think they are showing off by pulling the field.

How to shut down the Fred? Easy. Don't wait for his signal, just pass him, get in front of him and soft pedal and let the guy in back of you pull through. He'll get the hint and if not, just explain to him in a nice way, when you are both off the bikes, how a circular paceline (or 20 pedal strokes at the front and off, or whatever system you use) works, and he should come around.

email your synopsis to him or paste a copy to his windshield

Sincerely,

Fred

This happened to me last weekend, albight I was the "Fred." I've only been on a road bike for a month now, but I come from an accomplished background in XC running and swimming. I was able to keep with the paceline just fine, but I made the msitake of pulling too long and it apparently upset someone. No big deal, another guy explained it to me in a very informative manner, and this helped me figure it out for yesterday's ride. If someone doesn't know how to function in a rotating paceline, educate them on how it's done the first time they screw up so they know better the next time. My $.02.

Ahhh...echoes of the "We're going to yell at you!" thread...

Ahhh...echoes of the "We're going to yell at you!" thread...

that was a good one. :D

someone bump it, i was thinking about it the other day..

I don't yell at the Freds. I'll offer a friendly hint to one every now and again - point out there may be a smarter way to ride. I did that with a guy two weeks ago and he took it rather well - he seemed grateful for the hint. These guys usually simply don't know any better- because unless they are racing with a team, nobody says boo to them about their riding tactics.

If you tell them and they don't care - that's their choice. Nothing to get upset over, we're all doing this for fun (and the degree to which some serious racers seem to lose sight of that is astonishing). I shy away from it because I don't want to piss anybody off. I ain't no stinkin' cycling coach. I'm just a peloton dog riding in the back wondering 'who the F is driving this train today?' half the time. On my good days I'm on the front. Not today. I was toast. But I did not get shelled.

After 136 miles this unseasonably warm weekend, I am doing NOTHING tomorrow.

I don't yell at the Freds. I'll offer a friendly hint to one every now and again - point out there may be a smarter way to ride. I did that with a guy two weeks ago and he took it rather well - he seemed grateful for the hint. These guys usually simply don't know any better- because unless they are racing with a team, nobody says boo to them about their riding tactics.

Aw, I wasn't suggesting that you were, or would. Just the direction some of the replies were going ("Freds should take lessons before joining a paceline" versus "Experienced riders should help" kinda thing), reminded me of that thread.

I'll save bumping it for around April, when the "Group Riding Etiquette?" threads start to peak. Come to think of it, that's probably a good time to bump a leg-shaving thread, too.

Aw, I wasn't suggesting that you were, or would. Just the direction some of the replies were going ("Freds should take lessons before joining a paceline" versus "Experienced riders should help" kinda thing), reminded me of that thread.

I'll save bumping it for around April, when the "Group Riding Etiquette?" threads start to peak. Come to think of it, that's probably a good time to bump a leg-shaving thread, too.

I have to admit that after two years back doing this again I'm more annoyed by the silly elitist racer bullsiht than the Fredosity - although I'm not sure which is more laughable. At the end of the day I spend 80%+ of the time riding alone. But those group rides are very entertaining.

I'm always amused by the fact that you'll spend so much time crafting your rants then a few posts later say that you really don't care. It's pretty obvious that this guy got under your skin. Personally on our fast training ride if some one wants stick his nose in the wind for a huge pull, I'll be more than happy to suck his wheel and save my energy for the climb and sprint that lays ahead.

I'm always amused by the fact that you'll spend so much time crafting your rants then a few posts later say that you really don't care. It's pretty obvious that this guy got under your skin. Personally on our fast training ride if some one wants stick his nose in the wind for a huge pull, I'll be more than happy to suck his wheel and save my energy for the climb and sprint that lays ahead.

Hehe... +1. If someone wants to kill himself and pull me along a bit, there'll be no complaints from me.

I'm always amused by the fact that you'll spend so much time crafting your rants then a few posts later say that you really don't care. It's pretty obvious that this guy got under your skin. Personally on our fast training ride if some one wants stick his nose in the wind for a huge pull, I'll be more than happy to suck his wheel and save my energy for the climb and sprint that lays ahead.

Read the post again. The point appears to have exceeded your mental bandwidth. This is typical Fredosity.

Take two Fredcedrin and call me in the morning.

I'm always amused by the fact that you'll spend so much time crafting your rants then a few posts later say that you really don't care. It's pretty obvious that this guy got under your skin. Personally on our fast training ride if some one wants stick his nose in the wind for a huge pull, I'll be more than happy to suck his wheel and save my energy for the climb and sprint that lays ahead.
does it make me an awful person for agreeing with this??
bah, Ill get over it

I don't yell at the Freds. I'll offer a friendly hint to one every now and again - point out there may be a smarter way to ride. I did that with a guy two weeks ago and he took it rather well - he seemed grateful for the hint. These guys usually simply don't know any better- because unless they are racing with a team, nobody says boo to them about their riding tactics.

If you tell them and they don't care - that's their choice. Nothing to get upset over, we're all doing this for fun (and the degree to which some serious racers seem to lose sight of that is astonishing). I shy away from it because I don't want to piss anybody off. I ain't no stinkin' cycling coach. I'm just a peloton dog riding in the back wondering 'who the F is driving this train today?' half the time. On my good days I'm on the front. Not today. I was toast. But I did not get shelled.

After 136 miles this unseasonably warm weekend, I am doing NOTHING tomorrow.

The Freds also gotta learn to get a thick skin. Riding in the peleton is a lot closer to being in war, where you dispense with niceties and get to the point, than it is to laying on a psychiatrists couch. The shrink will you couch everything in terms of "suggestions". "If I were riding in the peleton I would ..." or "What works for others is ...". This approach does not work in a peleton.

Riding in the peleton, you have to be clear and forceful because it could be potentially dangerous, so you yell "Get off the front!" Nothing personal and the Fred shouldn't take it as so. Explain it to him after the ride.

>>because it could be potentially dangerous, so you yell "Get off the front!" Nothing personal and the Fred shouldn't take it as so. Explain it to him after the ride.<<

It wasn't dangerous. It was dopey. The only real danger was Fred detonation later in the ride. Which often happens thanks to pointless exertions such as the one described above. I don't hang out afterwards for the post-ride back slapping. That got old a long time ago. I ride back to my friend's house with him or to my car.

Read the post again. The point appears to have exceeded your mental bandwidth. This is typical Fredosity.

Take two Fredcedrin and call me in the morning.

I'm really trying to keep up with your brilliance, me being of little mental bandwidth and all, but why is it that you care about this sh#t so much? You go on this long rant in your OP then you post this "If you tell them and they don't care - that's their choice. Nothing to get upset over, we're all doing this for fun". Either this Fred problem is something you care passionately about and feel the need to cleanse the world of or your just out there having fun and it's nothing to get upset about. If it's the latter why post this to begin with?

does it make me an awful person for agreeing with this??
bah, Ill get over it

No it makes you a rational person who cares more about what you are doing than the one or two riders who don't 'follow' the rules. Or it makes you a person of limited mental bandwidth...take your pick ;)

>>and feel the need to cleanse the world <<

You're scaring me. I never said anything about 'Fred cleansing'. While that may be in keeping with your strange avatar, you might consider getting a grip.

Looks like USA Cycling is aware of the "Fred Behaviour" issues as well.

One of their rule changes for 2007 (this has to the most obvious rule in the book, but sadly it seems there's some idiots out there who have tried it):


Radio Usage
The rule for radio usage during races has been clarified to eliminate
the possibility of riders wearing audio playback devices (Walkmans, MP3
players, etc…) during a race.

Looks like USA Cycling is aware of the "Fred Behaviour" issues as well.

One of their rule changes for 2007 (this has to the most obvious rule in the book, but sadly it seems there's some idiots out there who have tried it):


Radio Usage
The rule for radio usage during races has been clarified to eliminate
the possibility of riders wearing audio playback devices (Walkmans, MP3
players, etc…) during a race.

Good thing they cleared that up. Whew.

Once I get my surgically implanted bluetooth iPod headphones they'll never catch me.

>>because it could be potentially dangerous, so you yell "Get off the front!" Nothing personal and the Fred shouldn't take it as so. Explain it to him after the ride.<<

It wasn't dangerous. It was dopey. The only real danger was Fred detonation later in the ride. Which often happens thanks to pointless exertions such as the one described above. I don't hang out afterwards for the post-ride back slapping. That got old a long time ago. I ride back to my friend's house with him or to my car.

So why not just let him go? I mean if the pace was too hot for you and the others, why not just let him go his merry way, taking your pull at the 'proper' pace, rather than wearing yourself out trying to keep his pace? If you know he's gonna blow up anyway you'd just reel him in later, right? Wouldn't this help to make your point when you explain it to him later? Of course I'm just a Fred and not well versed in non-Fred racing tactics. :p

>>So why not just let him go?<<

I did, I say it in the original post. I knew that it was going to be rainy today and that this would strike a few nerves.

You guys need something to do when it rains.

Hey, for all of you patentcad bashers, I just wanted to point out that he's exercised considerable restraint by not having used the word 'weenie' in this thread thus far, so cut him a little slack :D

Edit: and it's not even raining here today!

Hey, for all of you patentcad bashers, I just wanted to point out that he's exercised considerable restraint by not having used the word 'weenie' in this thread thus far, so cut him a little slack :D

Edit: and it's not even raining here today!

Flip it you weenies!

Good thing they cleared that up. Whew.

Once I get my surgically implanted bluetooth iPod headphones they'll never catch me.

resitance is futile:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2130/ichebborgmc9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Flip it you weenies!

:D

At least you made to page 2!

resitance is futile:

http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/2130/ichebborgmc9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

That guy looks like a Cat II.

i've ridden with people like that before. it's annoying. especially when you move up to take a pull and they accelerate to stay in front. i like a paceline that is constantly rotating.

i've ridden with people like that before. it's annoying. especially when you move up to take a pull and they accelerate to stay in front. i like a paceline that is constantly rotating.

What's more annoying is having your tranquil morning bicycle ride interrupted by a fatal car crash:

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070108/NEWS/701080326

Note that the cyclist did wait two hours before reporting the incident. I'll bet he got home and then called the police. Probably didn't have a cellphone and there ARE no payphones for miles around this accident site.

What's more annoying is having your tranquil morning bicycle ride interrupted by a fatal car crash:

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070108/NEWS/701080326

Note that the cyclist did wait two hours before reporting the incident. I'll bet he got home and then called the police. Probably didn't have a cellphone and there ARE no payphones for miles around this accident site.

Dude, do you really expect anyone to interrupt their early season for a few dead bodies? Its not like the car was blocking the road or anything. Sheesh:eek:

Seriously, though, this sucks for all involved. Am I evil for having made light of it??

Am I evil for having made light of it??

yes. basically the same as torturing kitties. :p

Looks like USA Cycling is aware of the "Fred Behaviour" issues as well.

One of their rule changes for 2007 (this has to the most obvious rule in the book, but sadly it seems there's some idiots out there who have tried it):


Radio Usage
The rule for radio usage during races has been clarified to eliminate
the possibility of riders wearing audio playback devices (Walkmans, MP3
players, etc…) during a race.

Some don't take being told well.

Dude, do you really expect anyone to interrupt their early season for a few dead bodies? Its not like the car was blocking the road or anything. Sheesh:eek:

Seriously, though, this sucks for all involved. Am I evil for having made light of it??

No.

“Life does not cease to be funny when someone dies any more then it ceases to be serious when someone laughs.”
- George Bernard Shaw.

Looks like USA Cycling is aware of the "Fred Behaviour" issues as well.

One of their rule changes for 2007 (this has to the most obvious rule in the book, but sadly it seems there's some idiots out there who have tried it):


Radio Usage
The rule for radio usage during races has been clarified to eliminate
the possibility of riders wearing audio playback devices (Walkmans, MP3
players, etc…) during a race.

As an official riders have actually asked me if they could race with ipods or other similar devices. The answer was an obvious no even before the rule calrification.

Sometimes I see posts here where your serious recreational riders get a bit peeved at the attitudes of the faster riders/those that actually race. And though I’m sure you didn’t intend to do it, your post only supports that belief. I will admit you give “the Fred” his props by saying he’s fast, but how many “Fred” comments do you need? Don’t you realize that like any sport, what really keeps it going are the throngs of avid supporters who aren’t really that good but participate for the sheer love of the sport? Take a look a golf. If it weren't for the millions of "Freds" (or hackers, as they like to call them in golf), where would the sport be? By your definition, I’m sure I’m not even a Fred. I probably haven't even worked my way up to Fred status yet. I’m 51 years old, have been riding for about a year, ride with my buddies at an average MPH of anywhere from 14-17 mph on 20-40 mile rides. I’m sure had I been on the ride I would have been dropped and you and your “non-Fred” buddies would have enjoyed talking about how fast I got dropped. But I’ve fallen in love with the sport and am in awe of riders (probably like you and those in your group) that can hammer all day long at speeds of 20 mph plus. Please remember that just because someone can’t ride as fast as you doesn’t make them a better person and the other guy a “Fred.” It simply means you’re faster. Maybe it’s because you’re younger, or more talented, or in better shape, or want it more . . . who knows.

Sincerely,

"Almost" Fred

>>Please remember that just because someone can’t ride as fast as you doesn’t make them a better person and the other guy a “Fred.” It simply means you’re faster. Maybe it’s because you’re younger, or more talented, or in better shape, or want it more . . . who knows.<<

I sure don't. I'd love to learn the etymology of the term 'Fred'. You can take offense to it I suppose, but I certainly didn't invent it. It's common lingo around here. I first became aware of this over ten years back. And as I've repeatedly pointed out the elitist racer attitude is far more grating on my nerves than any Fredosity. Freds often simply don't know better, they still love cycling, and they're almost all universally nice. Elitist racer pinheads should know better and are generally ******bags. No matter how fast you get there's another cyclist out there who will friggin bury your hot **** racer ass. Always something to keep in mind.

No superiority intended or implied. More of a comparison between more experienced riders and those who may lack that. Believe me, the guy I was talking about is VERY strong, stronger in my opinion than some of the Cat III racers on this ride. Maybe he'll figure it out, but generally that does involve racing with a team on a regular basis. He'll have an easier time on those rides if he ever does. I'd actually talk to this guy but frankly he exudes a 'don't bother me' air, so I don't.

You must concede that this thread did get some of you worked up today. Hell, what the hell ELSE were you going to do? It was pouring rain and 40º most of the day here in NY.

I say props to the OP. I love these Fred/Knave/Racer/Poseur/cycling etiquette kinds of threads and never tire of them. Much more intersting than the more utilitarian threads like should I have 32 or 28 spokes on my blah blah blah......

You must concede that this thread did get some of you worked up today. Hell, what the hell ELSE were you going to do? It was pouring rain and 40º most of the day here in NY.

Uhh, ride to and from work? ;)

Dude, do you really expect anyone to interrupt their early season for a few dead bodies? Its not like the car was blocking the road or anything. Sheesh:eek:

Seriously, though, this sucks for all involved. Am I evil for having made light of it??

depends. are you responsible for it?

As an official riders have actually asked me if they could race with ipods or other similar devices. The answer was an obvious no even before the rule calrification.

you should have suspended them on the spot for being idiots.

At one point this strong rider I've ridden with plenty of times is taking the pull in front of me....never-ending Fred pull'. And that's what we got. It really was a graphic illustration of how pointless this type of riding can be....The guys on this ride who are stronger and faster would never expend energy in that manner on a competitive ride. .

It obviously hasn't occurred to you that cyclists do things on training rides for training purposes, that they would never do in a real race.

I think the real "Freds" are the guys who treat the Saturday club rides like they're in the TDF. Suck wheel the whole ride...make a wild dash for the town-sign sprint...then bask in the afterglow all afternoon on the couch at home imagining Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwin waxing poetic over their brilliant performance.

"Well, Paul, did you see how Team Discovery's Fred Bikegeek dialed it up to 400 watts as he blew past a helpless field at the finish line?"

"An absolute thing of beauty, Phil. Fred rode a masterful race all day today, letting all the other riders pointlessly waste their energy up at the front."

Those are the same Freds that practice "The Look", in the bathroom mirror every night.

Bob

you should have suspended them on the spot for being idiots.

amen to that!

>>I think the real "Freds" are the guys who treat the Saturday club rides like they're in the TDF.<<

Is that what you really think? Why not do us all a favor and come to NY to explain this to the gentlemen on this particular weekly ride who seem to treat it as if it's a marquee stage of the Tour de France every Sunday? This would include some of the fastest guys in the NY City amateur 35+ vets field, including the guy who won the Spring Series points in 2006, the guy who finished 2nd in the 40+ RR @ Bear Mtn recently and another guy who was the NY State 40+ TT champ for 3 years running. And those are the old guys. A 26 year old Cat 2 regular on the ride just got a slot on the elite Northeastern Hardware team (as an amateur Cat II). I'd say they're 'real' amateur racers by any definition. Maybe they'll listen to you. We can't get them to slow down : ).

I was at the BACK END of the mid-ride sprint on Sunday and my clock read 33mph. It's friggin JANUARY. God only knows how fast the first 5 guys were going. I couldn't tell you. I'm really looking forward to that ride in May. Why not join me and all the other peloton dogs? Misery does love company.

I think I'm out of Fredcedrin. **** me. Sometimes the Advil just isn't enough.

>>I think the real "Freds" are the guys who treat the Saturday club rides like they're in the TDF.<<

Is that what you really think? Why not do us all a favor and come to NY to explain this to the gentlemen on this particular weekly ride who seem to treat it as if it's the final stage of the Tour de France every Sunday? This would include some of the fastest guys in the NY City amateur 35+ vets field, including the guy who won the Spring Series points in 2006 and another guy who finished 2nd in the 40+ RR @ Bear Mtn recently. Maybe they'll listen to you. We can't get them to slow down : ).

I was at the BACK END of the mid-ride sprint on Sunday and my clock read 33mph. It's friggin JANUARY. God only knows how fast the first 5 guys were going. I couldn't tell you. I'm really looking forward to that ride in May. Why not join us? Misery does love company.

I think I'm out of Fredcedrin. **** me. Sometimes the Advil just isn't enough.


I think he meant Freds who show up to the slow social rides, beat people to the line who aren't even trying, raise their arms when they do it, but pass on the actual fast competitive rides, and have no interest in racing when the USCF events come around.

I think Hollywood should make a movie called "Fred" about the quirks of cycling culture. It'd be funny as hell.

I think he meant Freds who show up to the slow social rides, beat people to the line who aren't even trying, raise their arms when they do it, but pass on the actual fast competitive rides, and have no interest in racing when the USCF events come around.

I don't think the hammerheads that come on this ride EVER slow down. 'Periodization?' For these guys it's fast, faster and ballistic. And there's a fair amount of racing success in this local peloton. There are a few more serious types (younger Cat II's mainly) who avoid this ride around this time of year (they're strict about not exceeding base mileage training period limits). But generally the speeds this ride maintains through the winter can be amazing - particularly this year when the typical merciful 'nobody's riding that much because it's so cold/snowy' factor is missing.

It's essentially a giant Testosteronefest. But a fast and smooth ride, great group, always fun for just about everybody, Freds included. If you can hang it's cool. And if you can't you're welcome to roll up for post ride coffee and back slapping regardless.

I think Hollywood should make a movie called "Fred" about the quirks of cycling culture. It'd be funny as hell.

that'll be a sundance flick, not hollywood.

that'll be a sundance flick, not hollywood.

I'm sure it would do $1 million, hey maybe even TWO million at the box office.