What do you think of this bike lane.

[redden]

http://tinyurl.com/yksdly
http://lifecycle1898.blogspot.com/

I think it was in the city of Ventura. There were some tire marks on the inside of the barrier meaning some dumb***** cagers ran over it. But only on the beginning of the lane. Don't know if it was a false sense of security or not, but it sure felt safer.

[LCI_Brian]

California bike lane design standards specifically disallow barrier separated bike lanes. This one looks like a lawsuit waiting to happen, should a cyclist hit it with his front wheel and then fall into traffic.

[michaelalanjone]

That bike lane looks safer than any old yellow line. I want those all over Louisville (KY). The problem with bike lanes is more 'keeping cagers out' than keeping cyclists in.

[sbhikes]

I've ridden in Ventura and never seen anything like that. Your second picture, seen in your blog, makes it look pretty harmless if you ask me.

Ventura is a strange place to ride in my opinion. Sometimes the bike lane is on the sidewalk. People in cars seem a lot less willing to share the road down there and people I ride with down there have unreasonable paranoias about cars if you ask me.

But they've also got a lot of really nice bike paths, like the one to Ojai, that I will actually drive down to go ride on. Riding a bike for transportation just doesn't seem like an "adult activity" in Ventura. It is much more common up here in Santa Barbara.

[JohnBrooking]

This person (http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/killerln.htm) doesn't like raised barriers. He cites the increased risk of falls from accidently hitting a wheel against the barrier, possibly even causing the rider to fall into the car lane!

[AndrewP]

Smoother pavement than many of the bike lanes around here. The one with the raised barrier looks a bit narrow.

[redden]

This person (http://www.bikexprt.com/bikepol/facil/killerln.htm) doesn't like raised barriers. He cites the increased risk of falls from accidently hitting a wheel against the barrier, possibly even causing the rider to fall into the car lane!

Come to think of it I had an accident when Caltrans put up a plastic barrier but it was only 2 inches high. They fixed it by adding lighting and putting up posts. At night the barrier could cause a cyclist to fall but during daylight hours I can't imagine a sober, sighted rider having a problem. I bet the tire marks were make at night, probably caused a fair amount of damage too. The second picture on the blog is the same barrier but the wide angle lens on the cell phone makes it look smaller than it is. If the barrier had plastic posts led lights then I think they would be safer at night.

[redden]

I've ridden in Ventura and never seen anything like that. Your second picture, seen in your blog, makes it look pretty harmless if you ask me.

Ventura is a strange place to ride in my opinion. Sometimes the bike lane is on the sidewalk. People in cars seem a lot less willing to share the road down there and people I ride with down there have unreasonable paranoias about cars if you ask me.

But they've also got a lot of really nice bike paths, like the one to Ojai, that I will actually drive down to go ride on. Riding a bike for transportation just doesn't seem like an "adult activity" in Ventura. It is much more common up here in Santa Barbara.

On harbor Blvd the bike lane is the sidewalk but I think that's in Oxnard.

[sgtsmile]

I am confused about how a person who could miss a curb at the side of the road on a bike could hit a barrier like the parking curbs between the two lanes in the above photos.

Having said that, I would not ride in, and do not ride in, bike lanes which are separated NOT because they are "unsafe" but because they tend to have more wrong way cyclists, slow cyclists, wandering cyclists, etc in them than the average road way (in my experience) and to be quite frank, I prefer the cars!

(uhoh, here come the flames.....)

[redden]

In the dark with a be seen light u could easily miss it. With my led nightrider the plastic barrier looked the same as the dot bots they replaced. The low density of traffic in Ventura even on the weekend bike traffic was not a problem. The bike path had the usual Peds walking 3 abreast despite a sidewalk right next to the path. On the 50 mile ride today there was only 1 wrong way rider.

[ghettocruiser]

If it wasn't full of pedestrians and broken glass, I would use this.

[Daily Commute]

I did not know that raised barriers violated California's standards. If so, then the locality is asking for a lawsuit if a cyclist gets injured running into the barrier.

Ironically, this looks like the kind of road where a striped lane can do some good--high-speed with long stretches without intersections. It's too bad your local government messed it up.

[damnable]

The raised bit needs to be painted, yellow would be good. Just to make it more obvious.

Otherwise the only problem I see is if you need to overtake another cyclist, or as someone else mentioned, things like wrong way cyclist can cause lots of problems.

[SingingSabre]

I think it should be made a little wider...but I'd still ride it. It doesn't look like there are any spots where I could potentially need to turn left, so I'm game for it.

[Helmet Head]

We have something similar to this on the west end of eastbound Friars Road in San Diego. Like the stretch depicted in your picture, the key is it being along a long stretch without any intersections. On Friars, there is a part of it that is crossed by several commercial/condo driveway entrances, and that's pretty bad. Also on Friars, there is a bike lane to the left of the curb, so cyclists can choose to ride on either side of it. Debris collects on both sides, so I tend to ride to the left of the bike lane stripe, not only to avoid the debris, but to increase cognitive conspicuity. Motorist have 2 lanes in each direction so passing me is usually not a problem, but I do temporarily pull aside into the bike lane (to the left of the separator) in order to let someone pass, when safe and reasonable to do so.

The facility most definitely attracts wrong-way cycling. Luckily, it's a straight stretch so sight lines are good and so bike-bike headons are probably very unlikely (except at night without headlamps...).

Thankfully, there are very few places (with sufficiently long enough stretches of roadway that is unbroken by driveways or intersections) where building a curb separated side path like this can be considered by even the whackiest of traffic planners.

[joejack951]

Just curious, what does the roadway look like where this seperated lane starts and what does it look like where it ends? In the picture it appears that it continues on for a while but eventually there will be an intersection and I wonder how long before the intersection the barrier ends.

If I was towing my flatbed trailer, that lane would be way too narrow to comfortably use. Riding side by side and chatting would also be impossible unless the people rode on either side of the barrier.

[sbhikes]

The tire marks could be from these barrier things being recycled and not from people running over them.

And Ventura, Oxnard, what's the diff? Once you get out of Old Town Ventura I can't tell where one ends and the other begins. ;)

[genec]

We have something similar to this on the west end of eastbound Friars Road in San Diego. Like the stretch depicted in your picture, the key is it being along a long stretch without any intersections. On Friars, there is a part of it that is crossed by several commercial/condo driveway entrances, and that's pretty bad. Also on Friars, there is a bike lane to the left of the curb, so cyclists can choose to ride on either side of it. Debris collects on both sides, so I tend to ride to the left of the bike lane stripe, not only to avoid the debris, but to increase cognitive conspicuity. Motorist have 2 lanes in each direction so passing me is usually not a problem, but I do temporarily pull aside into the bike lane (to the left of the separator) in order to let someone pass, when safe and reasonable to do so.

The facility most definitely attracts wrong-way cycling. Luckily, it's a straight stretch so sight lines are good and so bike-bike headons are probably very unlikely (except at night without headlamps...).

Thankfully, there are very few places (with sufficiently long enough stretches of roadway that is unbroken by driveways or intersections) where building a curb separated side path like this can be considered by even the whackiest of traffic planners.


The funny thing is it used to be marked as a two way bike path "eons" ago, long before any of that Mission Valley development started ripping into it... back then there were very few if any driveways... and only a couple of street intersections that crossed it. Then there was the great valley flood of the early 1980's, and suddenly, with the improvement of the flood plain in the valley, there were tons of housing and mini mall projects. (I recall the funniest thing was a sign for "River Run" a condo project, that was built on land that was underwater just a year before... I kept thinking "River Run" was a good name for it.)

The city originally had a good plan in setting up that particular path, which connected with the Ocean Beach and Mission Beach paths, and even had a special narrow street sweeper to keep the path clean. The sweeper eventually went into disrepair, and developers (with the city blessing) began to chop up the valley and the bike path (I say "path" as it was actually divided from the rest of the street just like the pics posted by the OP).

Today Mission Valley is full of built in gridlock (especially at Christmas time) due to poor traffic and road planning... in some areas, red lights cause instant gridlock as the blocks of traffic they control are too short, (Near Hazard Center and again near Fashion Valley Mall) all a testiment to poor planning and rampant development.

Yeah, I've lived here long enough to see all of those changes... and frankly, I try to avoid certain areas of the valley, due to the poor traffic planning.

Helmet Head may not remember, but certain stretches of PCH used to have those curbs too. BTW all of this was when San Diego had very few Bike Lanes.

[hotbike]

I kind of like it. I've ridden 135,000 miles since 1972 and I've never been knocked off my bike by a kerb.

What a barrier like that does, is rip the oil-pan off of old blue Oldsmobiles, when they veer into the bike lane.

"Fog Line" is another expression for the white line at the right of the road.This one is raised . Maybe the fog gets real thick in those hills.

It does need to be swept, though, and the DPW streetsweeper is too wide.

Skateboarders accuse bicyclists of chipping the kerbs with their cranks. Today I overheard a skateboarder asking another skateboarder if he had some wax. The kerbs around pedestrian plazas around here seem to be coated with black wax.
Available at your local BMX shop are left-hand drive freewheels, so one can grind the kerb without misalligning the chainwheel.

[sbhikes]

I lived in San Diego in the late 80s and I was doing geology-related work. It always astonished me that they built in river beds down there. (San Diego isn't the only place that does this, but it struck me when I lived there all the building right in the river bed.)

[richardmasoner]

(photo of bike lane with concrete curbs) (http://lifecycle1898.blogspot.com/)

It doesn't look too bad -- as already mentioned, a long straightaway with few intersections.

Something less 'curby' would be better, I think -- more a lip than a curb would allow cyclists to pass or get around obstructions in that lane and also make it less likely that a cyclist would fall if he hit the barrier. Also, something like this isn't complete without regular sweeping.

I didn't realize California bike facility standards don't provide for physical barriers. There are a couple of similar places in Santa Cruz with bike lanes physically separated from the rest of the road.

RFM

[sauerwald]

The raised bit needs to be painted, yellow would be good. Just to make it more obvious.



I have not done extensive testing, but I believe that an accident caused by my front tire being diverted by a yellow barrier would be just as injurious as that caused by an unpainted barrier. Indeed, by not painting the barriers, society will be able to better afford the additional medical treatment caused by the barriers.

[genec]

I lived in San Diego in the late 80s and I was doing geology-related work. It always astonished me that they built in river beds down there. (San Diego isn't the only place that does this, but it struck me when I lived there all the building right in the river bed.)

Do you remember the flooding of the Valley in the 1980s... from freeway 805 it all looked like swamp land. That whole area is built up now with condos and commercial structures and awaiting the next flood... which according to the usual sources... should be in 100 years or so. Shades of New Orleans, eh?

According to local history, the valley has flooded more than once in the past 100 years... and will probably do so again in the future.

http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/projects/river/images/pic09.jpg

Compare the above pic to the pic below taken in 2005 during heavy rains. The site in the picture below is only a few miles north of the above "1915" picture, while picture below was taken some 90 years later. Ya'll notice any similarity?

http://photos.signonsandiego.com/gallery1.5/albums/winterstorm/RGfashionVallyRain109.jpg

Yeah, it was soooo smart to build there... :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[Helmet Head]

Yeah, it was soooo smart to build there...

TBD, depending on how much damage occurs with each flood. A few million (today's) dollars every few decades is a reasonable rent to pay Mother Nature for the right and ability of tens of thousands of people to live, work, shop and play in Mission Valley.

[shog]

This idea while it looks good on paper isn't so hot in practice. Columbus Ohio had bike lanes similar to this in the 80's along High Street in the OSU area. The major problems were IMHO

1. Made traffic much less aware of the rider so any cross street was dangerous
2. Tended to catch all of the the litter, glass, debris, etc
3. Almost impossible to pass someone
4. If the lane was blocked you either had to come to a complete stop get off the bike walk around
5. In cold/nasty weather area became filled with water/ice/snow

Shog

[genec]

TBD, depending on how much damage occurs with each flood. A few million (today's) dollars every few decades is a reasonable rent to pay Mother Nature for the right and ability of tens of thousands of people to live, work, shop and play in Mission Valley.

Maybe (hence your TBD) depending on who gets stuck for the bill. If insurance companies and the government get the tab, there may be lots of screaming for reform.

BTW the figure probably would be well over "a few million" even in today's dollars, due to the vast buildup of the valley. The valley has been built up quite a bit since the last el nino flooding of 1982. But I suppose the heavy rains of 2005 proved that most flood plain improvements worked properly. (the Fashion Valley pictures were of an area that was designated as part of the flood plain plan)

[Keith99]

I am confused about how a person who could miss a curb at the side of the road on a bike could hit a barrier like the parking curbs between the two lanes in the above photos.

Having said that, I would not ride in, and do not ride in, bike lanes which are separated NOT because they are "unsafe" but because they tend to have more wrong way cyclists, slow cyclists, wandering cyclists, etc in them than the average road way (in my experience) and to be quite frank, I prefer the cars!

(uhoh, here come the flames.....)

I've actually ridden that section. It is on a slight but long hill, it is a rural route, there are not few intersections, there are no intersections. It is also a section of road where the cars can be flying.

All that said I got the impression that the barriers were put in to prevent parking in hte bike lane. Not for cyclists sake but to prevent theft from the orchards.

It is not a nice section, but continuing 'West' on that road leads to worse if I remember correctly.

[Helmet Head]

Maybe (hence your TBD) depending on who gets stuck for the bill. If insurance companies and the government get the tab, there may be lots of screaming for reform.

BTW the figure probably would be well over "a few million" even in today's dollars, due to the vast buildup of the valley. The valley has been built up quite a bit since the last el nino flooding of 1982. But I suppose the heavy rains of 2005 proved that most flood plain improvements worked properly. (the Fashion Valley pictures were of an area that was designated as part of the flood plain plan)
I have no problem with insurance companies covering the costs. The insurance companies should be charging premiums for those in the flood plain accordingly. Thus, effectively, those who live/work there are paying the future costs today in installments as insurance payments adjusted for being in a flood plain accordingly. So, the costs of living/working/shopping there because it's a flood plain would be paid for in terms of higher premiums, rents, prices, lower wages, etc. If the insurance companies are not charging the higher premiums, then that's probably because the insurance companies are counting on Uncle Sam to do the bailout...

And I have a huge problem with government covering the costs, which would mean people who are not enjoying the benefits of the flood plain build up would be stuck with the costs of damage in future floods. That would be very broken.

[LittleBigMan]

I don't like it, but if I had to use it...

I guess that's the bottom line, if they build it, you have to come.

[deputyjones]

I would use it and would be happy to do so. Personally, (and as a person who has a lot of experience looking at crashes) I think it is a great idea. You are close enough to traffic so that you are easily seen by cars, but the barrier wieghs on the mind of the cager more than just a white fogline. It also can be a reminder to the soccer mom on her cell phone that she is wandering into the bike lane.

[genec]

I would use it and would be happy to do so. Personally, (and as a person who has a lot of experience looking at crashes) I think it is a great idea. You are close enough to traffic so that you are easily seen by cars, but the barrier wieghs on the mind of the cager more than just a white fogline. It also can be a reminder to the soccer mom on her cell phone that she is wandering into the bike lane.

Personally I wouldn't mind this sort of barrier where long uninterupped stretches of road exist, and where the motorists are doing over 45MPH on the road.

The curb would actually stop much of the auto wheel driven trash.. although other trash might accumulate in the path itself... which would be a drag.

[noisebeam]

Personally I wouldn't mind this sort of barrier where long uninterupped stretches of road exist, and where the motorists are doing over 45MPH on the road.

The curb would actually stop much of the auto wheel driven trash.. although other trash might accumulate in the path itself... which would be a drag.
I've never ridden in a 'curb' separated bikepathlane, but have on rural roads with wide shoulder where threre is often a rumble strip cut just outside the fog line and on similar/same roads with no rumble strip. There is often so much debris - glass, tire bits, car parts, sticks, stones, dropped hard garbage, etc. that is is practically impossible to ride in the shoulder and the rumble strips reduce tire sweeping. Without the strips tire sweeping enters the shoulder >2'.
I just did a 100mi ride with long stretches of such rumble strips and 95% of other cyclist I observed (there were over 400 on this ride) rode inside the fog line/rumble strip to avoid the debris, whether they were part of a paceline or not.

Your thought is of course the 'curb' would block debris, but I would estimate (as you did also) that a good portion would end up on the 'bike' side anyway as it is thrown/falling from vehicles and could also migrate between the gaps in the 'curb'. Also custom sweepers and snowplows would be needed to keep it clean, lowering the likelihood it could be swept regularly if at all.

Al

[LittleBigMan]

It also can be a reminder to the soccer mom on her cell phone that she is wandering into the bike lane.
Seems like a dangerous reminder to me.

If a driver does unintentionally cross the barrier, where does the cyclist escape to?

[richardmasoner]

If a driver does unintentionally cross the barrier, where does the cyclist escape to?

I think the Deputy is referring to the fact that there will be some unsubtle physical feedback to the inattentive driver when the tire hits the curb.

When a motorist crosses into the shoulder behind a cyclist, where does the cyclist usually escape to?

RFM

[genec]

I've never ridden in a 'curb' separated bikepathlane, but have on rural roads with wide shoulder where threre is often a rumble strip cut just outside the fog line and on similar/same roads with no rumble strip. There is often so much debris - glass, tire bits, car parts, sticks, stones, dropped hard garbage, etc. that is is practically impossible to ride in the shoulder and the rumble strips reduce tire sweeping. Without the strips tire sweeping enters the shoulder >2'.
I just did a 100mi ride with long stretches of such rumble strips and 95% of other cyclist I observed (there were over 400 on this ride) rode inside the fog line/rumble strip to avoid the debris, whether they were part of a paceline or not.

Your thought is of course the 'curb' would block debris, but I would estimate (as you did also) that a good portion would end up on the 'bike' side anyway as it is thrown/falling from vehicles and could also migrate between the gaps in the 'curb'. Also custom sweepers and snowplows would be needed to keep it clean, lowering the likelihood it could be swept regularly if at all.

Al

One thing I noticed in the northern part of your state (last summer) was that the pavement in the traveled lane was so much smoother... no doubt due to the wear of tires on that pavement. I too took refuge behind the rumble strips when a line of cars appeared, but the pavement on the shoulder was really rough for narrow high pressure tires, so I rode in the right tire track when I could.

[eubi]

I don't like this bike lane at all.

For one, there's not enough room for me to let the wrong way cyclist pass!

[sgtsmile]

I don't like this bike lane at all.

For one, there's not enough room for me to let the wrong way cyclist pass!


Then run them over :D :rolleyes:

[LittleBigMan]

I think the Deputy is referring to the fact that there will be some unsubtle physical feedback to the inattentive driver when the tire hits the curb.

When a motorist crosses into the shoulder behind a cyclist, where does the cyclist usually escape to?

RFM
The point is that if a motorist actually crosses this barrier, what are the chances of the driver getting out again? Think drunk driver.

[sgtsmile]

The point is that if a motorist actually crosses this barrier, what are the chances of the driver getting out again? Think drunk driver.

If we are thinking drunk driver, the odds are about the same as them getting back over again after they ... WHAP "wazzzat?!?! huh? I dunno" *leaves behind the wreckage of another dead cyclist in the middle of the road and goes on home in a state of total oblivion* ....

[LittleBigMan]

I still don't like it. You're welcome to it. ;)

Ok, so, the scenario is that a driver will hit this barrier and stop the car, or bounce back into the road.

Or, the cyclist can do the same thing.

[sgtsmile]

Oh I dont like it either. I prefer well made roads to junk collectors like this.

[LittleBigMan]

Oh I dont like it either. I prefer well made roads to junk collectors like this.
Oh, gotcha. +1.

[eubi]

Ok, so, the scenario is that a driver will hit this barrier and stop the car, or bounce back into the road.


I agree with you, LBM, and I don't believe those curbs do much good. My truck can easily ride over this curb.

If we want to bounce a car back into his own lane, use a K-rail.

[rando]

I would ride it but I think it would get filled up with debris pretty quickly.

[Ed Holland]

Oh dear, not again.

They tried this in Oxford a few years ago, with intermittent separators. The worst idea ever - dangerous in the dark and frustrating if one is behind a much slower cyclist, as its impossible to pass. An additional probem is that the segregation causes debris (grit, glass rubbish..) to build up in the bike lane, leading to an increased likelihood of punctures.

No thank you !

Ed

[randomgear]

No place for streetsweepers or snowplows.
I would think that just installing raised (or depressed, depending on the region) reflector bumps would be a reasonable compromise.
It would be easy to keep clean, a cyclist could still pass a slower cyclist or group by passing in the roadway and if a car did develop a problem, it could pull off to the side of the road - hopefully on the shoulder past the bikelane.

[wheel]

As always I would wait for a reason not to use what is given to me. Or at least try it.

As for debris I have Armadillos solved that problem. I rode on I17 AZ69 I did not see hardly anything in the shoulder.