General Cycling Discussion - What ever happened to proper spelling and grammar?

I'm not sure this the appropriate forum for this.

My pleasure of using Bike Forums is severely reduced when I see 'inventive' spelling and bad grammar. I am not suggesting that this transgression is worse in any one forum or from any one area. Nor am I suggesting that my language use is better than others. I can accept that someone using English as a second language will have difficulty communicating.

When is it not appropriate to capitalize 'i' when referring to oneself? What is 'cuz'?

I am a college instructor. I also see this in the work my students submit. What is happening? Will it be possible for people to find a good job without having a working knowledge of our language?

Can Bike Forums institute a mandatory spelling check?

one thing to remember is a lot of different people ride bikes and will be interested in these forums. people with english as a 2nd language as you said are one. then you also have people like me. i graduated from high school 18 years ago and have had blue collar jobs ever since. not much writing involved. i'm quite sure my skills have decayed over the years. also very poor typing skills. lastly my time to read and write on the forum is limited to a few minutes here and there. so it doesnt always allow for proofreading i may want to do.
like everything else some people write better than others, and in a group this diverse there will be plenty of all types.
i know it bothers some people an awful lot but i'm not sure theres much you can do about it.
i for one have no plans to take a typing or english class so i can improve my forum posts, it would cut into my bike time :)

This issue seems to be coming up alot recently.....:confused:

Mandatory spell check would be an over the top method of handling the problem of poor grammar and spelling. We strongly encourage the proper usage of grammar and correct spelling, but cannot totally enforce it. A mandatory spell check would be oppressive, and like having an english teacher breathing down one's neck.

While I skip over some posts that are long and rambling with improper grammar/punctuation I see no problem with a few misspellings etc. if the poster gets his point across in a reasonably coherent manner.Heck once you get a good job your spelling/punctuation goes downhill as the secretary does all that anyway.

I takes twice as many keystrokes as i, and programmers are all into saving keystrokes.

Stokel. The fact that individuals feel comfortable replying to posts in this forum should encourage you. Perhaps through extensive reading and replying on this forum, users as a whole will improve their skills. Your response intimidates those lacking strong communication skills and sends the wrong message. Let's welcome respondents and encourage them to participate in this worthy medium. Label it "holistic learning".
Hockey:confused:

Dos gooder speling make me beter biker?

Your sintacks needs lucing att as wel

English grammer was one of the hardest subject to learn in high school. I found the difficulity on the same level of advanced physics and calculus. Grading an english grammer paper was a joke as teachers had to scale each test by 30 or 40 points so the majority of the class would pass. As a result, most of my friends including myself in high school never learned how to write a paper because english teachers will ignore grammer and concentrate on short stories and poetry.

I rarely proof my posts. My grammar, spelling, and punctuation also leave alot to be desired.

Still some forms of writing really annoy me. For example, I read a post the other day that was an entire page long, without a single period. I was out of breath just reading it (No pause at the end of a sentence or for a comma).

My guess is that much of the posting style that you refer to is influenced by instant messaging, where communiction is short, clipped, and highly abbreviated. Those of us old enough to remember teletypes find this wonderfully amusing. Now you know why Unix commands are short and cryptic but extremely functional and complex.

Dan

I program in Assembler language
anything over 8 letters befuddles me :lol:

Seriously tho, I'm of the opinion that minor spelling
errors are ok for this forum, I know I'm guilty of it
from time to time :D.

Don't even get me started about AOLese. . .

Shokhead, no beeing a gooder speller don't make
you a more better rider, however it does make it easier
to get a point across if you post and would
like to receive answers. . .


Marty

Although I am no language expert, there are some grammatical errors that drive me batty.

My pet peeve is when someone mixes up ‘that’ and ‘who’. So many people (even some journalists) don’t know to use ‘who’ to refer to a person and ‘that’ to refer to a thing. I read “He is the type cyclist THAT will ride all day.” Drives me nuts. Don’t know why.

Correct usage is “It is the kind of bike THAT will last for years” and “He is the kind of cyclist WHO can ride all day”.

I don’t personally correct anyone when I see this, but I wish I would sometimes. Maybe the people WHO make this mistake will read this and understand.

What is your pet peeve when it comes to grammar and spelling?

I jus donnt undeerstan thu problum heer peeple!

Let´s not make a hen out of a feather.

Originally posted by shokhead
Dos gooder speling make me beter biker?

No, but it makes your posts easier to read. And like others, I usually ignore posts that are misspelled and ungrammatical. There's lots of good information on this site and everybody has a something to contribute. But it would be a shame to post some good stuff only to have people ignore your post because you can't be bothered to try spelling things correctly.

On the same topic: What's really annoying is a long post that's a single paragraph. Does it take so much effort to hit the return key every once in awhile?

Edit: Dang it. Here I go on a spelling rant and I just caught one of my own!

Originally posted by sunsetnkc
I takes twice as many keystrokes as i, and programmers are all into saving keystrokes.


Hahaha...true sooooo very true

Your lost if you choose to ignore.

English grammer was one of the hardest subject to learn in high school. That’s because they no longer teach kids how to diagram sentences in grade school.

For those of you who never heard of a sentence diagram, it’s a graphic drawing in which you must place the subject in one position, the verb in another spot, etc. It illustrates what each word is, in relation to the whole. In sixth grade we were given many, many, many sentences and had to draw diagrams that illustrated the sentence structure.

I hated doing them, but by grade 8 I had a good understanding of grammar and sentences (even compound and complex sentences). The schools should bring back sentence diagramming.

Stokell, I once felt as you do. Now my opinion is more mixed.

On one hand, I too cringe at the evidence that the educational system has not only failed to teach, but apparently also entirely given up on requiring mastery of spelling, grammar and usage. If language is one of the stronger forces that bind us as a society, then linguistic anarchy must surely be a reflection of more culture-wide phenomena.

On the other hand, it may not be fair to categorize on-line discussion strictly as "writing." We often accept relaxed grammatical rules in spoken, casual conversation. Forums, chat rooms, and other such means of communication may be seen to function in a similar way in this virtual society.

On balance, while I generally feel that a person represents himself or herself poorly by writing sloppily, I recognize that much of the time people aren't really trying to represent themselves at all in this context. They're just asking a question or sharing their knowledge. Being judgemental on the basis of spelling or grammar isn't really productive in this situation.

We're not writing for publication, and nobody's grading our work.

At the same time, it takes great self-control for me to stay silent whenever I see "it's" used to mean anything other than "it is." Come on folks, it's a simple rule: never use an apostrophe to form a possessive pronoun. His, hers, theirs, its. Please do your part to conserve our precious apostrophes. Thank you.

RichC

Originally posted by MikeR

What is your pet peeve when it comes to grammar and spelling?

"John gave the ball to Mike and I." This one is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

And don't get me started on apostrophes. Especially when I read something like "This entrance is reserved for the XYZ Co. and it's employees."

If you don't like the persons grammar or spelling don't read their posts. I avoid aolese people as well as people who like run-on sentences. I sometimes have misspellings and grammatical errors when I am typing programmer speed and I really can't be bothered going back and fixing my errors. As long as the post is easily read I don't really care. This isn't school thank god.

Effective writing takes a lot of time when grammer is taken into consideration. If forum users had to refer to an english text book for each statement, we would probably have about two post each day!.

Schools are not teaching grammer anymore and focus on short stories and literature. I know of nothing more frustrating to an english teacher than having to grade a group of papers where the majority of the class score below a 50! I graduated from a very good private catholic school but none of us could spot an adverb in a sentence if it didn't have an 'LY" at the end. Seriously.

Laziness It's pure laziness of this "new generation".

I may not be the best typer in the world, but at least I double-check my posts before clicking submit.

This new generation growing up on "aol" really "erks" me too.

I'm glad to see some people finally thinking along the same lines I do.

Maybe it has to do with all the stupid cell phones, and instant chat connected to this & that, and all the ******** little hand-held devices that try to "cut everything down" (including a legible sentence).

I dunno. What ever it is, this "lazy pile of America" needs to stop it. It's *very* annoying.

1 r34lly d0n't c4r3 48out the m1n0r m1$74Xors. 7h3r3 is n07hing wr0ng w1th m3$$1ing up, 8u7 40L'3s3 and h4Xor g3t$ on my n3rves wh3n 1t i$ bl474n7.

(I really don't care about minor mistakes. There is nothing wrong with messing up, But AOL'ese and hacker gets on my nerves when it is blatant)

John gave the ball to Mike and I." This one is like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. I am ALWAYS correcting my kid on that one, and trying to teach her how to decide which is proper. It's not really all that difficult.

No offence but it sounds like some of you people need to de-stress. Next time you're gonna rant about something like spelling then go outside and ride instead, there are bigger problems in this world than some 14 year old who think it's cool to write cuz or some other inventive spelling.

Don't even get me started on those people that spell colour color, and aluminium aluminum. They really get my goat :P

If you re-read the original post, the poster expresses an understanding that for some, english is not their native language.

The poster also mentioned "inventive" spelling.
I take this to mean the deliberate misspelling of words. Some have called it "AOLese". This type of spelling can be difficult (at least displeasing) to read, especially when used frequently in long sentences. I am sure that other users will abandon reading some posts due to liberal use of "inventive" spelling.

An occasional abbreviated word or colloquialism is one thing. The misspellings in some of the posts above are meant to be cute and light-hearted commentary at this regularly explored issue. I have no problems with them in the context they are being used in this thread.

However...

Personally, I think that setting out to purposely mistype (use punctuation marks and numbers in place of proper letters) is what bothers some people the most. In respect for many of the members and visitors to this site for whom english is not a primary language, purposely mistyping can add to the challenge of comprehension.

I think that no matter who we are and what our spelling/language abilities are, we strive to be as concise and readable as possible. My mediocre typing abilities leave behind spelling errors but I find that by using a small, free program like "iespell" I can ensure that my posts will be as accurate and as easily read as I intended them to be.

Let us not be critical of members who may have some difficulties in spelling or sentence structure. Lets hope and encourage members to try their best to be concise (which I believe is representative of the vast majority of users) and not go out of their way to use "inventive" spelling simply for artistic reasons.

Rob

Originally posted by iamlucky13
1 r34lly d0n't c4r3 48out the m1n0r m1$74Xors. 7h3r3 is n07hing wr0ng w1th m3$$1ing up, 8u7 40L'3s3 and h4Xor g3t$ on my n3rves wh3n 1t i$ bl474n7.


You're right iamlucky13. I don't get the hacker thing. This must take forever to type. And it should be noted that it violates our community guidelines:

Disruption...Posts which intend to disrupt the topic of conversation or steer the topic away from the focus of the forum and related news. Disruption can include harassment, multiple user profiles, multiple posting of the same post and posting completely off topic messages. Please do your best when it comes to grammar, punctuation and spelling. Consistent use of "AOL'ese" and "hAx0r" talk can be very disruptive.

The problem with incorrect spelling on the forums is that it makes the "search" function slightly less effective. I've never had a problem with it, but I always wonder how many more results I would've received if everyone used the same spelling.

My breaks don't work, but I can still peddle :)

Effective writing takes a lot of time when grammer i

grammAr

grammAr

grammAr

grammAr

My pet peeve - "grammar" is the correct spelling!!

If we are going to discuss grammar, let's at least spell it correctly.

To answer the original question, I believe that correct grammar and spelling has gone to the same place as common courtesy. Like, giving an acknowledgement to a fellow cyclist when he acknowledges you.

Originally posted by Avalanche325
To answer the original question, I believe that correct grammar and spelling has gone to the same place as common courtesy. Like, giving an acknowledgement to a fellow cyclist when he acknowledges you.

Very good point. Moreover, in a medium like this where communication is totally written, taking the time to use correct grammar and spelling is showing courtesy to your readers.

I'd like to add that BF is much better in this aspect than most internet forums.

Originally posted by Dahon.Steve
Effective writing takes a lot of time when grammer is taken into consideration. If forum users had to refer to an english text book for each statement, we would probably have about two post each day!.

I don't think that most of us are looking to grade anyone else on his or her grammatical errors. Sure they exist and may be the focus of some pet peeves.

I think that we need to make a distinction between "less-than-perfect" grammar and what appear to be obvious acts of "inventive" grammar and misspelling.

Your observation about the quality of speech and writing skills is notable.

If you want to see some unreadable english, go look at any BMX or skateboard forum.

Originally posted by MikeR


What is your pet peeve when it comes to grammar and spelling?


people that make a big deal out of others "lack" of ability.

Originally posted by cycletourist
If you want to see some unreadable english, go look at any BMX or skateboard forum.

It is interesting that you mentioned that. In doing research before choosing my new bike, I relied on various search engines to find information. To that I attribute my discovery of BikeForums.net When I came across posts in some of the BMX and other bike-related forums, it seemed as if I stumbled on a parallel universe of cyclists with their own code of spelling and language usage (including a bit of profanity).

After all of my visits, it is only BikeForums.net that I return to regularly and support financially.

We can quibble and complain about grammar and spelling, but this is, in my experience, the best-kempt english language bike forum site around.

I know that here in bike forums, we don't all have perfect spelling and grammar. What bothers me is terrible spelling and grammar in newspapers or on tv. Like seeing on the tv news 'woman attacked by grisly bear' or 'filed for bankrutcy' or 'Lybia' instead of 'Libya'. ONce I heard a tv journalist describe an assault on a woman. "The attacker drug her from her car." What the hell is this, the Beverly Hillbillies? You at least expect newspapers and journalists to know proper spelling, grammar and to at least PROOFREAD!! Here, we all make typos, errors and while I am frequently appalled at some of the spelling mistakes people make on this board, it's just an informal board, we aren't being graded and it's not intended to be instructional. But if your job is writing for a living, you should at least know how to spell.

if my grammar is wrong or my speeling is also wrong, then dude, don't even bother reading it, as long as I can convey what I want to say thaTS FINE WITH ME

This thread may not be very germane to the site ideal, but I am finding the discussion and concerns interesting. I also wanted to add a few more comments about what I see here compared to the rest of the world and the internet.
First, this may well be the best site on the internet as far as users writing well. Second, not all schools have abandoned proper grammar. I am one of the younger members and I remember doing sentence diagrams until ninth grade. I agree, however, too many schools have switched to what they call "outcome based education," and my school appears to be approaching minority status in the public realm. Outcome based education is a nice way of saying an education that looks effective on the standardized testing. It includes ideas like teaching students to sight read rather than sound-out words and giving grades based on participation rather than performance. It's basically a prozac form of education.
Hmmm...I'd better stop before I really get started and write a (grammatically correct) essay.

It seems some of you are grading us.I type very fast and chicken peck with a finger so its from that and being at work so if you can understand it, be happy with that.Boy some of you people must be impossible to live with.

Originally posted by shokhead
It seems some of you are grading us.I type very fast and chicken peck with a finger so its from that and being at work so if you can understand it, be happy with that.Boy some of you people must be impossible to live with.

Shokhead, your writing and reasoning do not appear to be the issue here. You are clearly read and understood. You have not gone out of your way to disguise your post in ciphers, substitutions of letters and sentences with symbols and other cryptic and difficult to read applications.

Rob

I believe Proper Spelling divorced Aaron sometime
in the mid 80's, after which she and her daugher Tori moved
to So. California to start a line of high budget, low
quality television shows.
As for Grammar, I'm sorry to say she passed on
when I was a teenager (or at least thats what they
told me, for reference see the Teenagers thread at
this very forum), thanks for asking though.

there, issue settled.

Marty

Originally posted by shokhead
Your lost if you choose to ignore.
Well, case in point. It took me a second scan to realize you were mistyping "your loss" rather than mistyping "you're lost."


Boy some of you people must be impossible to live with.
I dunno. Say you were riding with a guy on a road bike and he had the chain on the 52-tooth big ring and the 26-tooth inner cog. Major crossover, and probably noisy as heck as well. You might find it painful to look at, and even though the guy is managing to get down the road, you suggest to him that he might have an easier time if he changes to something that doesn't have as much crossover. Would he be justified, by your reasoning, to call you uptight? After all, he is propelling the bike--just not optimally. Who are you to try to impose the generally accepted standards of bicycle shifting on his free spirit? Well, of course, you're not. You're trying to point out that by knowing and using the generally accepted standards of bicycle shifting, the guy will have an easier time attaining his goals in cycling. Does that make you imposssible to live with?

So let's move from this analogy to look at posting. Taking the slight extra effort to use the generally accepted standards of written communication means you will have an easier time attaining the goals of your particular post. No one is looking for pure Chicago Manual of Style exactness--heck, I've used sentence fragments and slang spelling in this post--but being supportive of your readers by putting in punctuation, paragraph breaks, and following a minimum of writing conventions will win you a lot of friends.

I spell "wrong" wrong everytime :D :P

i gess we al jus suck.

I dont often win friends,i make friends.I dont care if i win or make friends,just leave my posts alone as i write them,misspelled or not because its ok and the world wont end.

No Lotek, you got it all wrong....

Proper and Aaron Spelling did divorce, but Aaron got custody- Proper Spelling got hit by a mac truck riding her bike on Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu shortly after. Tori, in her grief, decided to do something with her life, and after many plastic surgeries, teamed up with her father to produce some very low-budget television shows in the late 80's. Those are known as the Beverly Hills years. Several years before the series finale, Tori, while pondering over her mother, Proper Spelling, had a small fling with Kelsey Grammer, which backfired, due to her inability to spell "grammar" correctly because of her dyslexia problem, and if you look at the small print in episode 209, Graduation Day (Part 2), where Donna (Tori) loses her virginity to David, you will see the dedication to Mr. Grammer where she acknowledges her spelling error.

Sheesh! Get it right, will ya?

;)

Koffee

uh, maybe I missed most of the 80's too?

thanks for the correction Koffee.

Marty

Originally posted by fubar5
i gess we al jus suck.

Maybe this should be the comment that ends the thread!:beer: :beer:

Originally posted by wabbit
What bothers me is terrible spelling and grammar in newspapers or on tv. Like seeing on the tv news 'woman attacked by grisly bear' or 'filed for bankrutcy' or 'Lybia' instead of 'Libya'........ But if your job is writing for a living, you should at least know how to spell.

Hey, we all know common mistakes like your/you're, its/it's, etc. Lately, I see a particular new piece of 'creative grammar' everywhere. It's using apostrophe S to show a plural.

Yeah, I thought it was no big deal when it was just kids online talking about their skateboard's and dog's and teacher's. But my library just ordered a series of wild-animal videos for small children, and right on the front of two videos are the titles "Wild Puppy's" and "Wild Kitty's."

Now the question to ask ourselves is, when does common usage become the linguistic standard? Are we actually seeing an internet upheaval in language? Ten years from now, will it be considered grammatically acceptible to write "your a big sack of stinkbug's and i h8 u" ????