Utility Cycling - Bring back the English 3-speed

These old English 3 speeds were great bikes no doubt, but there are places they simply don't work as well as other options - so in response to the thrashing the mountain bike seems to be getting in here, I will say this:

I live in Pittsburgh PA - and in addition, I am no spring chicken. These two factors led me to park my 3 speed Raleigh and convert a 90's fully rigid MTB for street use. In hilly city like Pittsburgh, a Sturmy 3 speed didn't work as well for this aging rider.

So the English 3 speed is a great bike but a good MTB has its place too for those of us who live in cities where mountain goats would be at home. That doesn't negate what has been said about the cheap MTB, but it does widen the issue a bit.

acupuncture Doc, from West Virginia I agree with you. I understand the appeal that the simplicity of the three-speed and singlespeed has for those who live in relatively flat parts of the country, but not all of us have that luxury.

That being said, they do make seven and eight speed IHGs now, and Rolhoff makes a 14-speed IHG; there's also NuVinci. My Big Dummy has a Rolhoff, and my Greenspeed recumbent trike has as an eight-speed Shimano combined with a Schlumpf crank. I'm currently having my Trek outfitted with a NuVinci. I'm thinking of putting some sort of IHG on my Montague.

Back to basics. Let's recall that OP said this:


It seems to me the English 3-speed was the epitomy of what a utility bike should be, sturdy, dependable and low maintenance. It came as standard with mudguards, chaincase and usually a wicker basket. It had relaxed angles and a sprung saddle that made it easy and comfortable to ride.

You can put a lot of different numbers of speeds in an IGH (2-14 at last count, plus one continuous with rather limited range). It's not the number of speeds (despite the name), it's the notion that the a very highly developed and versatile type of utility cycle has already been developed, was manufactured for 80 years, then fell, relatively, out of use due to production shifting to Asia at the same time that fads starring highly specialized but relatively useless bike configurations (road racing, mountain) were driving production, in large part from the US market, where bicycles had come to be regarded as toys.

The English 3-speed, in particular, yes, with its highly practical full chainguard, was the epitome of this functional design.

Hence the name of the thread: Bring it back. It was a good thing. We were in error to let it wither.

Of course, this being a market economy, people who don't want it don't have to buy one.

:bike2: Huh?

I agree. My wife gets the "chainring tattoo" on her right leg every time she rides.

But hey, I got her to buy SPD type pedals and shoes this weekend, and she learned how to use them yesterday. I'm proud of her.

I agree. My wife gets the "chainring tattoo" on her right leg every time she rides.

But hey, I got her to buy SPD type pedals and shoes this weekend, and she learned how to use them yesterday. I'm proud of her.
She learned in one day? I'd be proud of her too. I still do the odd "Artie Johnson" when using them.Not too bad on the grass, but asphalt is nasty.

We were on quiet streets. First, I fell for my first time, and I've been wearing cleats for many years. It was positively comical. I hope it helped assuage her fears, of which she had plenty.

She actually had a lot of trouble getting in and a surprising amount of trouble getting out. We discovered it's best for her to twist out at the bottom of the pedal stroke and to twist her knee in so she could twist her heel out.

She came up to a stop sign where there was cross traffic and forgot to unclip. Since she was stopped, she was able to relax while falling, and she didn't hit hard at all. Two drivers in the cross traffic stopped and asked if she was OK, and she was.

I fixed up an old three-speed this month for my daughter's girlfriend. I was disappointed with the ride. Not sure why. I'm thinking short cranks and short reach. I even replaced the rims with high quality alloy rims, and I replaced the brakes with modern-ish alloy calipers.

Probably a 19" frame. The frame size on a 3-spd needs to be a couple inches bigger that the proper frame size for a drop bar bike. My 23" is about right for me and my pants have a 30" inseam. Back in the day if you banged your privates on the crossbar you would have been laughed at, not awarded $5million dollars.

Cleats in a 3-speed thread??????

Just to bring things back on topic, I will repost the latest incarnaton of my Dunelt (from the Full Chaincase Thread).

http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf/_Pix/dunelt-fccjpg.jpg

To my mind, that is a utility bicycle.

Sorry about the thread drift. Anyway, your Dunelt is gorgeous. One of the best specimens I've seen in a long time. How did you manage to get your hands on it?

Sorry about the thread drift. Anyway, your Dunelt is gorgeous. One of the best specimens I've seen in a long time. How did you manage to get your hands on it?

Actually, it was a run of the mill three speed I bought for too much money from an internet dealer in New Jersey a few years back. I replaced the seat with that B72 I had. Then I built new wheels with alloy rims and SS spokes. Next came new tires. Then the generator light. The saddle bag is a re-purposed Wal-Mart handle bar bag. Then the bell. And finally, the chaincase I just installed. Yet to be added will be a rear axle stand, and it will be complete. At that point, I will have to decide if I want to refinish it to make it look like new, probably not. I do keep it well tuned.

Sometimes if you want something you just have to do it yourself, especially if your money is limited. Basically, it is a cross between the Dunelt my grandpa bought me back in '53 or so and the deluxe Raleigh my cousin had. My intent was to have a bicycle that looked like a 60 year old bike that someone had kept and taken care of, modifying it as needed to keep it in good working order. I think I got it pretty close to that. Somehow that seems to have become my thing; if you came into my apartment you would think I was one of those old men who never got rid of anything, but I had none of this old stuff ten years ago.

I can't find it now, but I found a blog once about a guy who found an old bike in an abandoned barn. He stripped it down to the frame, had the frame sandblasted to bare metal, and raised the serial number. He found that the frame was made in 1908. He then had it repainted and added a modern fork, handlebars, seat, drivetrain, wheels, brakes, etc., but he's essentially riding a ONE HUNDRED YEAR OLD BIKE!!!!

To all the people who have converted a bike to an english 3 speed style bike:

I would like to do the same, but I don't have a ton of experience wrenching on bicycles so I have some questions.

What is the best type of frame to start off with?

What is the most inexpensive way to get an internally geared hub onto a bike that doesn't already have one? Do they sell wheels with ighs in different sizes to fit different bikes?

I have an old Motobecane with 27" tires. Will it be difficult to put an IGH wheel on it or should I use something else as a base?

"Best" depends on various criteria of yours which we can't guess, such as mechanical ability and patience, budget, performance requirements, etc.

You can put an IGH on lots of different frames. I would recommend a steel frame, since the width of the axle may not match exactly, and steel is forgiving of such mismatches. Aluminum weakens a lot with repeated bending. Steel needs a lot of abuse to weaken.

A Motobecane with 27" wheels is surely a steel frame, so that might be good. What kind of handlebars are on it? Drop bars are a bit tricky to put the trigger shifter on but not impossible. I think the best place is under one of the brake levers. You might be able to put it on the top of the bar, next to the stem.

If it has aluminum rims, then it's a matter of rebuilding the rear wheel. You may or may not need new spokes. If it has steel rims, I recommend replacing them, too, with aluminum rims. Aluminum rims ride much better, and they brake much better, too.

Whether or not you would want to build the wheel yourself depends on your aptitude, time, and patience. I find wheel building very rewarding. Many people with no experience have built excellent wheels the first time, but it takes many hours the first time. I can build a wheel in under an hour, having a lot of experience at it.

You might be able to find a pre-built wheel. This is cheaper than having a bike shop build you a wheel. If you buy a pre-built wheel, you should re-tension and re-true it for best durability. Pre-built wheels are a very good value but they are not the best quality, unless you re-tension and re-true them before you ride them.

If you're still interested, we can help. I recommend you start a new thread for your own project, so we can follow it as a progressing tale, so to speak.

The Raleigh Superbe lives on...

http://www.chipcom.net/bikes/superbe.jpg

Best for me would be a solidly built, but also inexpensive. When all is said and done, I would like it to come in under $300. More than $300 and you start to get in the range of decent new bikes which for me would sort of defeat the purpose of putting it together myself.

Which is why I would like to build it with the Motobecane I already have or another very inexpensive used bike/frame that I find in the future. The Motobecane is a steel frame and it has hybrid style bars on it now, but I would most likely put new bars on it anyways.

I'm not sure if the rims are aluminum or not. Is there an easy way to tell?

I'm not opposed to building the wheel myself if it is doable by a complete novice and also saves me money. However, are there any specialized tools I would need that would add to the cost of building the wheel?

Another concern I have is if my Motobecane is worthy of this much work? I have no idea what model it is, I just know it's an old Motobecane with worn off paint and Suntour components.

Two things I'm considering but am not set on. If I can swing the budget I would ideally like the hub to be a 5 speed or more and also have a dynamo hub in the front, but if I can't afford it I'm ok with just going with the original 3 speed hub in the back and that's it.

.

I'm not sure if the rims are aluminum or not. Is there an easy way to tell?

Try using a magnet; a magnet will not be attracted to a aluminum, but it will be to steel.

The only specialized tool you need to build a wheel is a spoke wrench. A truing stand is nice to have but not necessary.

To give us a better idea of whether your Motobecane is worthy of the project, please post at least one high quality picture of it. A few more would be better than just one. You can get an old Sturmey Archer hub for about $25. Harris Cyclery has the little accessories you need, like triggers, indicator chains, pulleys, and cables. You might also score some of these parts if you have a bike shop that has parts bins full of old stuff and if they'll let you rummage through it.

Best for me would be a solidly built, but also inexpensive. When all is said and done, I would like it to come in under $300. More than $300 and you start to get in the range of decent new bikes which for me would sort of defeat the purpose of putting it together myself.

.

Are you absolutely set on the IGH or are you ok with English 3 speed style and a derailler?

If you want to do this inexpensively and can live with a derailelr you could do the following:

put new stem (like a nitto dirt drop) and bar (nitto promnade, north style, etc)

get ride of the front derailer (for simplification and clean lines)

use simple thumbshifters

put some fenders and a rack on

new saddle if budget allows (b17 is great)

even this "simple" work is going to be $150 to $200...and most you would need to do anyway. You could start with this and add the IGH later if you want

Search this thread and you will see my Japanese 8 speed which whill give a feel for what you can do. C&V also had a recent thread on City bike conversions that had a bunch of great ideas.

Ok, the rims are steel.
Here are the best pictures I have of it at the moment. I can take better ones when I get home this evening if needed.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_aQvE2vU5Quo/SntKmJS7zNI/AAAAAAAAChY/lUVn3qqwDv4/s800/0806090002.jpg
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_aQvE2vU5Quo/SntKmLSB5hI/AAAAAAAAChc/-ZSINiuLrt0/s800/0806090003.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_aQvE2vU5Quo/SntKmTJpTPI/AAAAAAAACho/DWePEgVL3KE/s800/0806090004.jpg

I have three 3-speed hubs already that I was planning on using. 1 Sturmey Archer and two Shimano 3S hubs.

I am kind of set on the IGH. I just like the simplicity, low maintenance aspect and clean look they have.

Something else I thought of. How can I tell if fenders will work? Looking at the bike and the brakes, I'm not sure if fenders would fit or how they would mount.

The frame size on a 3-spd needs to be a couple inches bigger that the proper frame size for a drop bar bike.

OK, quoting my own post. I thought I might explain the why-for of this. It is a matrer of frame angles. A typical 10-24spd has 74-75 degree angles. A light roadster like the Raleigh Sports has 70-72 degree angles. And a heavy Roadster like a Raleigh Tourist has 66-68 degree angles.

As the angles tilt father back the top tube goes lower so a longer seat tube is needed for a bike that fits the same leg length. Also as I mentioned in the old days (pre-1970) folks were not worried about being able to straddle an upright bicycle, you can easily tilt the bike and stop with one foot on the pedal and one on the ground. Furthermore, us kids back in those days used a flying mount and dismount most of the time. An interesting aside: the only way to mount and dismount from and ordinary (Penny Farthing) bicycle was by using a flying mount and dismount (Not that I was around in those days). A flying mount for those who do not know is when you run with the bike and jump on it, usually putting a foot on the near pedal on a modern bicycle, or the mountign peg of an ordinary to boost yourself up; although many just swung up and over pivoting off the handlebars.

To all the people who have converted a bike to an english 3 speed style bike:

I would like to do the same, but I don't have a ton of experience wrenching on bicycles so I have some questions.

What is the best type of frame to start off with?

What is the most inexpensive way to get an internally geared hub onto a bike that doesn't already have one? Do they sell wheels with ighs in different sizes to fit different bikes?

I have an old Motobecane with 27" tires. Will it be difficult to put an IGH wheel on it or should I use something else as a base?


Here is the way I would go and still be under your $300 price range. Rear wheel with the newest generation of SA 3 speed hub $120 (http://www.velo-orange.com/star8singewh.html)(includes the shifter and cable) and a generator hub for the front wheel for $160 (http://www.velo-orange.com/shdyhubwh.html). Or you could use the basic front wheel for $95 (http://www.velo-orange.com/sh10suncrfrw.html). Yes the 700c wheels will fit your Moby, I have an early 70's Nomade that had 700c wheels on it, but they may make it harder to fit fenders.

Aaron:)

graywolf, thanks for answering the question I meant to ask. Do two or three degrees really lower the top tube that much?

I remember riding bikes much too big for me when I was a kid. No problem. But they were ladies' bikes.

I took an Ordinary out for a short ride once. There was no one to help me. I figured out the flying start easily, but I didn't know about the flying stop, so I had to dump it sideways to avoid hitting a highway. I nearly panicked.

You can raise the stem to compensate. For what its worth, my roadster is sized to fit me. The default size - when it goes with the 635mm rim size, means you must be a tall rider to to even ride it safely. A proportionally sized bike usually means better handling and safety.

How much are we talking here if I build my own wheels? I would have to buy the hub, rim, spokes....? I don't know which ones I would need or what that would all add up to.

I'm beginning to question whether it makes sense to do this or not. If I were to get prebuilt wheels, fenders and a new saddle that puts me up around $4-500. At that point I have other pretty good options of new bikes. Such as this http://www.performancebike.com/bikes//Product_10052_10551_1072887_-1___ which has everything I want except the dynamo hub for $399.

Or this http://www.rei.com/product/774424 at $479 that has everything I want, and I could just do little things to customize it.

I really like the style and simplicity of an english 3-speed but it seems like actually putting one together with everything I want is going to cost as much or more than a new bike of similar style.

For the amount you'd spend on upgrades, an Electra Amsterdam or Gary Fisher Simple City are a far better bet. Lighter and stronger with modern frames and components.

Just a hodge-podge of old parts, a Raliegh "AW" wheelset and brakes from 1982 and a Schauff lugged frame from 1984. The rest is e-bay and Velo Orange bits. Rides great and geared for moderate hills, actually I need to address that chainguard!


http://lh4.ggpht.com/_xyLx9uS-Z6g/SpyqaifBPNI/AAAAAAAAB9U/ly_eO8sbbpE/s640/general%20229.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_xyLx9uS-Z6g/SpyqYuP7GiI/AAAAAAAAB9Q/q-GRt_4iUrg/s640/general%20226.jpg

It needs rubber block pedals and perhaps a porteur type rack in front and reverse brake levers. A porteur type chaincase would complete the look or perhaps a Herbie Chainglider for something more streamlined.

hvac59: I'm totally jealous! That bike is beautiful and exactly the look I want.

I think my problem is I'm trying to find a way to combine my ideal commuter bike and an english 3-speed. I think I may have to keep the two seperate. My daily commute has a couple steep enough hills that I'm not sure 3 speeds would be enough, but converting my current commuter into an english 3-speed style bike with an IGH with more gears would be more expensive than it's worth. Maybe I'll just keep looking for a used original 3-speed or take my time building one with cheap or free bikes/parts and just ride my current bike for now.

flammenwurfer, there is a danger that a restoration/renovation project will cost more than a bike. Parts are expensive, compared with bikes. It makes economic sense when you can do the work yourself and have a good portion of the parts on hand. As someone pointed out, a donor bike may be an excellent source of parts.

Right. I guess I need a better donor bike or bikes. The only ones I have at the moment are a few 70s department store 3 speeds. They have good 3 speed hubs, but not much else that I would want to put on another bike.

As with many things, you make a tradeoff between time and money. If you have time and patience, you can save yourself a lot of money. Watch craigslist, garage sales, visit garbage dumps, etc. If you want a bike now and have the money, go buy one now.

Most of the furniture in my home is from garage sales, craigslist, etc. It's all very nice. My wife and I just didn't mind a partially furnished home for a few years. We wait for the good stuff the way an alligator waits for its prey. Sit still and watch.

I think I will just do a few inexpensive customization things to my current bike, and take my time looking for or cheaply building an english 3 speed.

I would like to get some new handlebars, fenders and a rack for my current bike though. I think that will give it more of the look I'm going for in the meantime.

I think I will just do a few inexpensive customization things to my current bike, and take my time looking for or cheaply building an english 3 speed.

I would like to get some new handlebars, fenders and a rack for my current bike though. I think that will give it more of the look I'm going for in the meantime.

Sounds like a good solution. I like the bike.

Oh man, I think the people at Fuji have been spying on my dreams!

http://www.fujibikes.com/LifeStyle/ClassicSeries/Absolute30.aspx

I'm rather disappointed by the price though. :(

I agree on both points! What do you folks think this bike is worth? I think between $600 to $800. Am I missing something that justifies the $1200 price?

I would say $600-800 would be about right. The Bianchi Milano with Nexus 8 speed retails for $599.

Let's be fair. I don't see a Bianchi Milano with an 8-speed hub. The Fuji is very well equipped with fenders and a rack. It has high-end stuff like a cartridge bearing bottom bracket and stainless steel spokes. Also, whether you like steel or aluminum frames better, a chrome-moly frame is still more expensive to make than aluminum, and that's what the Fuji has. So the Milano and this Fuji are not comparable.

I realize they aren't identical bikes, but they are of similar build and use. The Bianchi Milano does have a Nexus 8 Speed hub. http://www.bianchiusa.com/603.html

Edit: Hmmm...I guess that is a link from an 05 Bianchi Milano. I just did a quick google search and that was the link that came up first. I just clicked on it not realizing it was from 05. Anyways, they do still have a Milano with an 8 speed hub, but I don't see what the MSRP is.

I think $600 would be a little low for the Cambridge, but I don't think $800 would be out of line.

That is also a lugged frame versus a TIG welded, again more expensive to produce.

Aaron:)

Anybody notice the Fuji has 32h hubs but 36h rims?

Anybody notice the Fuji has 32h hubs but 36h rims?

That is probably why it is so overpriced :-)

http://www.konaworld.com/bike.cfm?content=africabike3http://www.konaworld.com/images/bikes/med/africabike3.jpg

The Kona Africa 3

Is that rear rack built into the frame?

Is that rear rack built into the frame?

Sure looks like it is. I don't think, prior to 2010, that the Africa bike used to, but I may be wrong.

A handful of local businesses started a community bike share and are using the 3 speed Konas as part of the fleet. The racks are built in, along with a ring lock on the frame.

http://www.globebikes.com/us/en/globe/GlobeBike.jsp?pid=10HAUL2

How much are we talking here if I build my own wheels? I would have to buy the hub, rim, spokes....? I don't know which ones I would need or what that would all add up to.

I'm beginning to question whether it makes sense to do this or not. If I were to get prebuilt wheels, fenders and a new saddle that puts me up around $4-500.

I built my wheels for about $100, but I had the AW hub and all the tools. Whether it is better to build or buy depends on what you are wanting. If you are wanting a look alike, then buy a new city bike. If you want the ride and handling of the old 3-speed then you pretty much have to go the rebuild route, at least here in the US. In my case there was also a pretty good case of nostalgia involved.

Just so you know I have done it both ways, here is my old commuter from back in the early '90's:

http://webpages.charter.net/graywolf/_Pix/Bianchil-20080119d.jpg

Even here there was a bit of money added, It was a new hybrid when I bought it that I added fenders, kickstand, rack, seat, and the handlebars to (city bikes were not much available back then). It also used to have lights, but the things died long ago. The main problem with it is that I now have a bit of a balance problem and it takes a lot of concentration to ride it, the Dunelt is nowhere near as twitchy. Of course around here the mountain bike gearing is nice.

There are always trade offs; you have to decide what you want then figure out how to get that. If you have your heart set on a 3-speed, the cheapest way to get one is to find one locally for little or no money and just tune it up so it rides well. Even if you choose to go the route I did on my Dunny if you take your time it is only pocket change, if you have to have it today it is going to cost you.

graywolf: I have Sturmey Archer hub I can use also. So you built your wheels for $100 total? Or $100 per wheel? $100 total isn't so bad.

I would like to build up a bike into an english 3 speed type on my own with whatever frame I decide would look cool, but like you said, if I want it now it's going to be expensive. However, I have now found an authentic old 3 speed, but I'm still not sure what it is exactly. Here is a picture of it. It has part of a Bianchi decal on the back fender and an oil port on the bottom bracket. I have another thread about it here http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=583285

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_aQvE2vU5Quo/SqmpNmvrf3I/AAAAAAAACmc/6qI_1LPx9pY/s800/P1020408.JPG
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_aQvE2vU5Quo/SqmpOzBx-FI/AAAAAAAACmo/YLhThnBcz6c/s800/P1020414.JPG

Now that I have a cool old 3 speed in good shape I think I want built up my own version of a english 3 speed with an 7, 8 or 9 speed hub instead, but keep the general style of an original. I will take my time with it though as to not empty my pocketbook. It's going to be hard to keep it real cheap though since $135 is the cheapest I've seen a sturmey archer 8 speed hub.

I got the Sun CR-18 rims, from ebikestop.com for $25 each. A quick check shows that they still have them at that price in 32, 36, and 40 hole versions. Ordered the spokes from an guy in Taiwan who sells on ebay, unbutted SS, cut to length. An used an alloy 32 hole ront hub I got from ebay (had to modify the fork to use it), if I could have found an oridginal 32 hole hub, I would have used that, the bike had a replacement 36 spoke wheel on the front when I got it. I have a dyno hub that I need to get the spokes for and then will lace it into a rim someday.

Nice bike, it kind of looks like a Sears which would have been made in Austria (Late 60's-70's. The 1950's -- early 60's were made in England). I would guess most of the accessories were added by a later owner as they are more modern than the bike. If the rear wheel is original the date of manufacter may be stamped into the AW hub.

BTW, despite what everybody says that frame is not all that heavy, stripped it is about 5 lbs. if you spent the money for all light weight components you could build up a 25 lb untility bike on it.