Utility Cycling - Bring back the English 3-speed

I went and waded around the Public website a bit...I still think they need to post the full spec's including the geometry.

They have an interesting marketing plan, and I suspect that may be adding to the overall cost of the bike. It appears they are trying to make a boutique bike out of it. I hope it works out for them. The bikes appear to be decently equipped, but like I said earlier I would like to see dyno hubs and lights. And FWIW Raleigh Superbes also came stock with leather saddles, they were not a $100 option!

Aaron :)

Here is my Origin 8 Cycle 3. It's in the spirit of the English three speeds (lugged frame and fork, north road bars etc..) but updated with alloy components and runs with a Sram T3 instead of Sturmey. 300 miles in four weeks of ownership. So far so good.

Here is my Origin 8 Cycle 3. It's in the spirit of the English three speeds (lugged frame and fork, north road bars etc..) but updated with alloy components and runs with a Sram T3 instead of Sturmey. 300 miles in for weeks of ownership. So far so good.

I think Origin8 has gotten as close as anyone trying to emulate the classic 3 speed. It has the lugged frame, horizontal top tube, fenders etc... And the price is the most reasonable I believe. I just wish SRAM would make something besides a twist-grip shifter.

I like your bike cyclistbrian! If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you?

I think Origin8 has gotten as close as anyone trying to emulate the classic 3 speed. It has the lugged frame, horizontal top tube, fenders etc... And the price is the most reasonable I believe. I just wish SRAM would make something besides a twist-grip shifter.

I like your bike cyclistbrian! If you don't mind me asking, how much did it cost you?

Not at all. $425 street price for the bike not including accessories which I purchased separately.

Not at all. $425 street price for the bike not including accessories which I purchased separately.

That's not bad at all. How is that saddle? I kind of like the look, but not sure how comfy it would be.

That's not bad at all. How is that saddle? I kind of like the look, but not sure how comfy it would be.

Saddle is OK but not entirely suitable for this bike. You really want something wider for the upright riding position. On a road bike it would be pretty good and it'll probably end up on one of mine at some point. I have a Brooks that would be perfect but don't really want to take it off my Phillips although in it's current state of decrepitude I don't ride it very often. I'll probably get a Velo Orange or a Brooks for next season. Hoping Santa brings one or the other.

You mentioned the twist shifter. I'm not a fan of those generally but for the three speed it works well.

I see. I have a VO Model 8 and I love it so far!

I'm sure the twist shifter works fine, but aesthetically I just can't stand them. They just don't seem to fit in on a classic bike.

My 1967 Hercules has a Sturmey Archer twist shift. I'm keeping it to keep it original, and I plan to sell the bike. Functionally, it's far inferior to the trigger shift. But you can't say it's not æsthetically appropriate.

I agree that the Origin 8 Cykel 3 seems to hit the nail on the head. I'd like to see you or someone on it to get to see the riding position. Honestly, I think it would be a welcome improvement if the reach were longer than original. I know it's a matter of taste, but it's just way too short for me.

a real chain case would be nice too, not sure why they wouldn't put one on

My 1967 Hercules has a Sturmey Archer twist shift. I'm keeping it to keep it original, and I plan to sell the bike. Functionally, it's far inferior to the trigger shift. But you can't say it's not æsthetically appropriate.

I agree that the Origin 8 Cykel 3 seems to hit the nail on the head. I'd like to see you or someone on it to get to see the riding position. Honestly, I think it would be a welcome improvement if the reach were longer than original. I know it's a matter of taste, but it's just way too short for me.

Measured it last night. 54 cm center to center seat tube, 58 center to center top tube. I'm 5'10" and I feel pretty comfortable on it. I had to slide the seat all the way forward otherwise it felt pretty stretched out for me. 1" stem so you could swap one out easily for something classy with more reach like a Nitto.

a real chain case would be nice too, not sure why they wouldn't put one on

Hockey stick chain guard would be nice. It's more a Sports type then a roadster. At least the chain ring guard has a cood pattern in it though it doesn't show up in my pics.

a real chain case would be nice too, not sure why they wouldn't put one on

Chaincases are nearly non-existent in North America. I know that's unbelievable in Belgium and the Netherlands, but our cycling culture is extremely different here. Until recently, we didn't even have fenders (aka mudguards) on most bikes. In fact, they're still relatively rare.

cyclistbrian, moving your seat forward and backward isn't the best way to adjust your reach, because it affects your hip-to-crank relationship. Better to change your stem. And I'm glad to hear the top tube is longer than on the old bikes. That's the one thing I would want them to change.

>>cyclistbrian, moving your seat forward and backward isn't the best way to adjust your reach, because it affects your hip-to-crank relationship. Better to change your stem.

Riding this morning I noticed I'm scootching back on the saddle as I ride so I can definately slide it back some. Ultimately I'll probably do a Nitto Technomic to get the bars slightly higher and to shorten the effective top tube. Bikes are always a work in progress aren't they?

a Sure sign of Creeping European Socialism.. :roflmao2:




There are streets in the Netherlands named after misters Sturmey and Archer.

:beer:

Bikes are always a work in progress aren't they?

For people who read forums about bikes, yes. Most people just buy them and ride them and don't care much about tweaking them.

I've done a ton of tweaks to my Super Course lately, and as a result, it is extremely comfortable and pleasurable. But my new handlebars have a much longer reach than the old ones, and as a result, it's less comfortable to ride it slowly. I had occasion to ride it slowly on a group ride which went at about 9 mph. My wife and another woman friend came along, and they're not very strong, so we went at their pace.

Here is my Origin 8 Cycle 3. It's in the spirit of the English three speeds (lugged frame and fork, north road bars etc..) but updated with alloy components and runs with a Sram T3 instead of Sturmey. 300 miles in four weeks of ownership. So far so good.

Nice, but no chainguard right? Not even a hockey stick guard.

Chaincases are nearly non-existent in North America. I know that's unbelievable in Belgium and the Netherlands, but our cycling culture is extremely different here. Until recently, we didn't even have fenders (aka mudguards) on most bikes. In fact, they're still relatively rare.

Agreed. In the USA and Canada the bicycle has long been regarded as a piece of sporting equipment or a kids toy, not as a serious transportation alternative. Therefore accessories intended to make it a practical adult transportation device intended for use with business or work attire have not been popular. Chainguards, fenders and racks, baskets or other carrying devices are found on relatively few bikes. Other convenience accessories such as ring locks or steering locks are even scarcer.

I'm thinking of buying the new Giant Via 1 (which ironically is a 3 speed whereas the Via 3 is a single speed). I'm sure there will be comments....let's hear them.

I'm thinking of buying the new Giant Via 1 (which ironically is a 3 speed whereas the Via 3 is a single speed). I'm sure there will be comments....let's hear them.

Won't get any argument from me. I have two older steel Giant bikes and like them. Excursion and Iguana. Giant is a reputable manufacturer and does a good job for the most part. Back in the early nineties there bikes were one of the best values for the dollar. Take a look at the Torker line up (http://www.torkerusa.com/) too if you can find one. They provide good value for the money and aren't as well known as Giant.

Aaron :)

That looks very nice. How much does it cost?

Are you getting one with all the good stuff, like fenders, chainguard, and rack/basket?

My daughters love my "new" three speed... they are very utilitarian girls... as in...they like that dad is so very utilitarian and will carry their bags after school. It has been a little cold for them to be riding in the mornings so they have been taking the bus.

You didn't think the Tinkerbell backpack was mine did you ?

http://www.ravingbikefiend.com/bikepics/basilschool1.JPG

How cold is too cold for them?

How cold is too cold for them?

It was -6c this morning... my youngest daughter has a very low tolerance for cold and tells me thats since she is so small she lacks the body mass she needs to stay warm.

She will ride in this weather but just does not like the 7km ride to school when it is below freezing.

Is it windy or damp, too?

Is it windy or damp, too?

Nope... just cold.

It is actually a pretty decent place to winter ride as the climate is dry and cold which beats wet and cold every day of the week.

Yeah, I kind of surmised that, with the way you make it sound mild. It's damp here and very windy. There's a guy here on bikeforums who drives an 18 wheeler. I don't remember his name. He drove to this area during some of our high wind, and it impressed even him.

It was -6c this morning... my youngest daughter has a very low tolerance for cold and tells me thats since she is so small she lacks the body mass she needs to stay warm.

She will ride in this weather but just does not like the 7km ride to school when it is below freezing.

Tell her to ride harder and get warm:p

Actually she is telling the truth. I have always had large working dogs and never really worried too much about them going out in cold weather. My wife had a small yorkie, found out they need to have sweaters/coats in colder weather because they are so small they cannot generate enough heat and lose body temp very quickly.

Aaron :)

Tell her to ride harder and get warm:p

Actually she is telling the truth. I have always had large working dogs and never really worried too much about them going out in cold weather. My wife had a small yorkie, found out they need to have sweaters/coats in colder weather because they are so small they cannot generate enough heat and lose body temp very quickly.

Aaron :)

Aaron, my daughter's logic is unassailable... she says that as I have 3 times the body mass I am able to generate / retain more heat than her and even though she is very good at drafting when we ride it is still hard for her to be comfortable on her bike.

Think she would like some moose mitts / pogeys as it is her hands that bug her the most... and she is good to about 0 C so does ride when many adults have hung it up for the season.

My oldest daughter will ride sock-less at 5C and rarely complains about any kind of cold... but will wear a sweater in the summer.

Aaron, my daughter's logic is unassailable... she says that as I have 3 times the body mass I am able to generate / retain more heat than her and even though she is very good at drafting when we ride it is still hard for her to be comfortable on her bike.

Think she would like some moose mitts / pogeys as it is her hands that bug her the most... and she is good to about 0 C so does ride when many adults have hung it up for the season.

My oldest daughter will ride sock-less at 5C and rarely complains about any kind of cold... but will wear a sweater in the summer.

My son is a decent sized fella 6'-6" around 220#, I am a tad shorter, similar weight. He will wear flip flops and shorts down to 0 C, by the time it hits 5 C I am digging for thermals and quite often wear a light weight sweater and long sleeved shirts well into the 20's C. However let it hit 38 C I am comfortable as long as I have shade and a bit of breeze and he is miserable.

I sometimes wonder about the physiology side of it or whether it is all in my head...

Aaron :)

I am five foot nine and a buck forty soaking wet... have ridden at -52 F and been pretty comfy.

Must be in one's head.

The giant via 1 costs about $525 from my lbs and comes complete with matching fenders, a hockeystick style chainguard and a rear rack. I rode a torker t300 last year, but i didn't like the coaster brake and the handlebars were too wide and the top tube was too short.

I just wish SRAM would make something besides a twist-grip shifter.

They do, at least for the T3. They're commonly available in Europe (example: one of many retailers that carry the trigger (http://www.winstanleysbikes.co.uk/product/25551/SRAM_Torpedo_3Speed_Trigger_Shifter)). SRAM N.A. just isn't committed to their IGH products, and if you buy one in the USA it's in spite of SRAM and not because of them.

Chainguards, fenders and racks, baskets or other carrying devices are found on relatively few bikes.

The US product managers had built derailleur bikes for so long they forgot about chainguards. A couple years back somebody in the industry realized chainguards are required (http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsumbicycles.pdf) (see page 3, r.h. column) on new 3-speed style bikes offered for retail sale in the USA! I'm seeing a lot more chainguards now.

They do, at least for the T3. They're commonly available in Europe (example: one of many retailers that carry the trigger (http://www.winstanleysbikes.co.uk/product/25551/SRAM_Torpedo_3Speed_Trigger_Shifter)). SRAM N.A. just isn't committed to their IGH products, and if you buy one in the USA it's in spite of SRAM and not because of them.

Cool, I didn't know they even made them. I don't have an sram hub, but it's good to know I could get one if the need ever arises.


The US product managers had built derailleur bikes for so long they forgot about chainguards. A couple years back somebody in the industry realized chainguards are required (http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsumbicycles.pdf) (see page 3, r.h. column) on new 3-speed style bikes offered for retail sale in the USA! I'm seeing a lot more chainguards now.

That's very interesting. I had no idea that it was actually a requirement. I just assumed that they put them on for utility or looks only.

Not sure if I should post this but I will anyway. Recently bought my wife her first bike in something like 37 years. It has a lot of the features of a classic English 3-speed even though it looks decidedly different. It's a Biria EZ Boarding bike. My wife has a bit of a phobia about falling off bikes (she broke her kneecap last time she rode 37 years ago), and feels better knowing she can get on and off the bike without having to leap over the frame.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/Doohickie/10Biria/DSCI1664.jpg

A mixte is a good unisex bike for someone who can no longer mount a traditional diamond frame bike.

She didn't want to have to step even that high. It's a mental thing more than anything else I think. If an EZ boarding frame gets her back on a bike, I'm good with that.

There are a lot of good step-through bikes available.

The Day6 would have been good to look at.

What matters though is your wife is happy with her bike and she will have a lot of fun when she can ride again.

While I agree the more rugged and dependable bikes, like the english 3 speed, should be brought back. I do think it needs more than 3 speeds. I myself own a city bike that shares much in common with the english 3 speed. Only major difference is it is a 7 speed. I need the lows for the really big hills and the highs are great for down hill runs.

My bike (and it is originally from the UK. which country exactly, I do not know)
178537

While I agree the more rugged and dependable bikes, like the english 3 speed, should be brought back. I do think it needs more than 3 speeds. I myself own a city bike that shares much in common with the english 3 speed. Only major difference is it is a 7 speed. I need the lows for the really big hills and the highs are great for down hill runs.

My bike (and it is originally from the UK. which country exactly, I do not know)
178537

I half agree with you. I thing they need to be brought back, but don't agree that they should have more than 3 speeds. At least not as the only option. People have gotten along just fine with 3 speeds for the last century. I don't see why all of a sudden more is necessary. I think an option of having more than 3 speeds is good for those riders that aren't as strong find 3 speeds too difficult to deal with. But for many people, myself included, 3 is plenty. Even if you live in a hilly area 3 speeds can work just fine as long as you gear it right.

The US product managers had built derailleur bikes for so long they forgot about chainguards. A couple years back somebody in the industry realized chainguards are required (http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsumbicycles.pdf) (see page 3, r.h. column) on new 3-speed style bikes offered for retail sale in the USA! I'm seeing a lot more chainguards now.

I happen to like the Sturmey Archer 4 speed if geared properly can work even better than the 3 speed. For example, I prefer to have 2nd gear on a three speed to be 52 inches and using Sheldon's calculator.

Inches
1st 39.4
2nd 52.5
3rd 70.0

Now, look at the gear inches using the Sturmey Archer 4 speed setting up 3rd gear at 52 inches all things being equal.

Inches
1st 35
2nd 41.4
3rd 52.5
4th 66.5

You end up with a very low 1st gear at 35 inches compared to 40 inches with the three speed! You really don't lose much of the high gear either at 67 inches in comparison with the 3 speed 70 inch gear. Overall I like the 4 speed alot.

39/52/69 is what I am running on my 3 speed winter bike factoring for 2.125 tyres... I ride up a 12% grade every day and keep it in the saddle the whole way.

Was thinking a dual drive would be nice and I do have that old Cyclo triple conversion kit kicking around which would give me a 35-78 with nice 11 - 12 % jumps between 9 speeds if I used a 36 tooth ring.

I farm some for part of my living. The fields that I work for myself and for my dad who can no longer work are scattered about by as much as 4 miles or so. Some times you need two tractors or your truck and tractor at the same field. ( might need seed,tools, fuel, just a way home in the evening etc.) I have a hard time getting my wife or mom to do this sometimes.
About 4 years ago I needed to get to work and needed my truck for seed. All my neighbors were busy in their fields as well and everybody examines everybody else's business. I swallowed my pride ( you just gotta visualize some of these farmers and their ways) threw a 60's vintage raleigh sports I had just got in the back of the truck, went to the field, and biked back for the tractor.
I never looked back. Put a basket on the front and do this all the time now. I get a little razzing but who cares. I was assisting some kids in a pumpkin field sme distance from the barn last year and saw some guy coming down the path with the same bike I had left up against the barn. He never said a word, made a selection, went back, threw his money in the honor box and hit the road. Beautiful.
Some day I will take a picture of this bke strapped to a disc being pulled by 210 horses so that i can get back for lunch later on.

I farm some for part of my living. The fields that I work for myself and for my dad who can no longer work are scattered about by as much as 4 miles or so. Some times you need two tractors or your truck and tractor at the same field. ( might need seed,tools, fuel, just a way home in the evening etc.) I have a hard time getting my wife or mom to do this sometimes.
About 4 years ago I needed to get to work and needed my truck for seed. All my neighbors were busy in their fields as well and everybody examines everybody else's business. I swallowed my pride ( you just gotta visualize some of these farmers and their ways) threw a 60's vintage raleigh sports I had just got in the back of the truck, went to the field, and biked back for the tractor.
I never looked back. Put a basket on the front and do this all the time now. I get a little razzing but who cares. I was assisting some kids in a pumpkin field sme distance from the barn last year and saw some guy coming down the path with the same bike I had left up against the barn. He never said a word, made a selection, went back, threw his money in the honor box and hit the road. Beautiful.
Some day I will take a picture of this bke strapped to a disc being pulled by 210 horses so that i can get back for lunch later on.

I work construction for a living and do pretty much the same thing. We do a bit of hobby farming and I use a bike to get up to the barn from the house to get a tractor. I HATE walking if I don't have to.

Aaron :)

People have gotten along just fine with 3 speeds for the last century.

People who live and ride in relatively flat areas have gotten along just fine. There is a very good reason that Amsterdam is the city where cycling enjoys the greatest popularity. If you have to walk the bike for more than 25% of the trip, you might as well save the weight of the bike and just walk the whole way.

Right, more gears are not necessarily superfluous. Having a better gearing system can make cycling easier for more people.

I'm fine, most of the time, on any of my bikes. I even had a fixed gear bike until it was stolen recently. I live in a hilly area, and I managed to get up the hills on that and on my three speed. But I have to admit, my bike with the best gearing system is the most versatile and pleasant to ride.

The US product managers had built derailleur bikes for so long they forgot about chainguards. A couple years back somebody in the industry realized chainguards are required (http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/regsumbicycles.pdf) (see page 3, r.h. column) on new 3-speed style bikes offered for retail sale in the USA! I'm seeing a lot more chainguards now.

And right below that we learn why Pie-Plates are present on all new derailleur bikes.

They are required by law for any new bike sold. After that point the consumer is free to take it off if they wish.

But I have to disagree with the OP of this thread at the very beginning that blames MTB's as the cause of the demise of the everyday bicyclist. That was killed in the 70's bike boom fad by the drop-bar road bike. Sure, they were a fad -but drop bars are super-uncomfortable for daily riding and are best left for those who like the lycra and speeding along in a training group. For your everyday person they killed riding around town.

I think the MTB actually revived riding for many people as they saw the relaxed riding position as a godsend to the racer crouch of the drop-bar bike. MTB's exploded as the new default for bike sales and from there the cross bike evolved that has a MTB seating position but with light-duty components to be lighter. Too bad they still have the uncomfortably high bottom-bracket, and the difficult for joe-public to maintain derailleurs. In the end most derailleur bikes end up so badly adjusted and mangled that the bike is destined for the back of the garage or the junk because the perception that getting it fixed is going to cost more than the bike is worth. I think this is the genesis of the fixie craze. No derailleurs to maintain and adjust. For us regular riders it's not that big of a deal but your average person isn't up to it. Mehanical aptitude is at an all-time low as humanity descends into Idiocracy.

As IG hubs make a comeback you are going to see more of them on the road. But these kinds of bikes aren't cheap and don't readily adapt to cheap bike manufacturing like the MTB's did. The Raleigh 3-speeds of yore were not (and still are not) cheap bikes. My dad paid as much for his Sports in 1954 as a good used car cost. In order to bring the price down and stay competitive Nottingham cut more corners every year until they were having serious issues with reliability and their consumer image by the '70's. It still wasn't enough because people wanted CHEAP bikes and the cheap "10-speed" department-store drop-bar bikes of the bike boom killed them -even if they were a "fad" and were uncomfortable for most people's needs.

Blaming the MTB for the death of the comfort 3-speed is totally wrong. In fact, it might have been the spark that will eventually bring it back.

Amesja, that's an excellent chronicle you wrote there!

I would word two things differently, but these are small disagreements. Your insights are right on.

I still like drop bars, and it's not that they're bad for every day riding. They're uncomfortable unless you're accustomed to them and you are in a particular kind of condition. I agree that upright bars are better for city riding than drop bars, but drop bars can be good, especially if the reach isn't too long and if the bars aren't too low. Some people mount their drop bars high and close, and it gives a variety of positions, which is what it's all about.

Mountain bikes seem to me to have long reaches. So those straight handlebars look comfy, but I've never been comfortable on a mountain bike. The reach is one problem, and those long cranks are the other. With long cranks, my knee comes up too high at the top of the stroke.

Another thing that killed the 3-speed is that it's hard to keep inflation in perspective when you buy something only every 30 years or so. I worked in bike shops long ago. In 1978, the Peugeot UO-8 was selling for about $180. People would come in and be shocked, because their Raleigh 3-speed had only cost $50, back whenever they were $50. It seemed like such a huge jump. But when a bike was $50, how much was a loaf of bread? Compare that with today's loaf of bread. This is one reason there was more pressure to drop bike prices. And it's a shame, because there have been so many crappy bikes made and sold, and it's such a disservice to the customers and to cycling.

Will the all-steel bike ever come back? Those three speeds are incredibly reliable as well as durable. Most aluminum bike parts are not as durable. And those that are are more expensive. Who wants a heavy bike? Some don't mind, but they're a small market.

A neighbor of mine has a townie bike. I don't remember the brand. It has no top tube. I think the frame is aluminum, and the down tube is huge, to provide both strength and stiffness, and it's not a bad thing. The bike is heavy, but it probably rides well enough and is reliable enough.

Yes, as you said, the IGH has made a good comeback, and this is good, but they're expensive now. And imagine if Walmart specs out cheap IGH bikes. Someone will make crappy IGH's, giving bikes or at least IGH's a bad name.

I'm reading Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. The hero in the book points out how important it is to be your own mechanic and how much you lose by not understanding your machine. And this is true also with modern computers. You don't have to be a car mechanic, but bikes have to be relatively light to be ridable, which means they have a lot more breakdowns per mile or per hour than cars. And if you're not, you might not like cycling. Or you can buy a stout, reliable bike, but it will be heavy AND expensive.

So those are the tradeoffs, and people aren't aware enough of them.

Noglider makes a good point. My bike is my car. I really don't care what my bike weighs. It simply has to work day in and day out. For me the trade off is worth it because my bike does what it is supposed to do day in and day out. The only things on my bike I have ever had to change are tubes, tires, and chains. No mechanical failures of any kind, ever. It is heavy, and it was expensive.

Ok, do I get a bikes direct oxford three speed for $299 and add a rear rack or do I get a khs green from the LBS for $329 + tax? I think the green is heavier and high tensile versus lighter and chromoly for the oxford, but it comes in a smaller size frame more appropriate for my 5'4" height. I can't bring myself to ride a girl's bike (mixte), so don't suggest it.