View Full Version : A few basic legal questions
ink1373
01-08-07, 02:49 PM
I was involved in a road-rage type hit-and-run recently.
I'm not too law-savvy, but I've been reading up a bit. I still need some help clearing up some basic stuff. I'm ready to make a claim against the drivers insurance company for damage to the bike, my helmet, and clothing.
I have no health insurance, so I didn't take the ambulance ride. I sustained some nasty bruises on my knees and hip, a broken rib, and what has turned out to be a pretty severe sprain in my thumb (which makes life as a bike mechanic a lot less fun).
Will the driver's insurance company pay anything for injuries not associated with a hospital bill? Am I right in assuming that pain-and-suffering compensation will necessitate a civil lawsuit?
and perhaps most importantly, any tips from those who have been there?
Thanks for the help.
-N
ink1373
01-08-07, 02:52 PM
To clarify, the driver hit me deliberately and fled. I'm not sure what kind of effect that will have on how I should proceed.
You need a lawyer.
Hit and run? Got his license? If he's got insurance, you're in luck. Press charges ASAP.
Hawkear
01-08-07, 03:15 PM
If the driver hit you deliberately and fled, then that is assault with a deadly weapon, coupled with hit and run. Criminal charges should be involved.
You should speak to a lawyer, and also to doctors and bike mechanics to document all damages for possible pursuit of civil claims.
lima_bean
01-08-07, 03:22 PM
Please tell me there is a police report..
Please tell me there is a police report..
Right. I think if you didn't immediately report it and have the cops file a report, you're pretty much screwed. You should check to make sure though.
ink1373
01-08-07, 03:32 PM
Yes, I have a police report, "accident" report, and the driver was insured, and I have their policy information.
The main thing is that I'm not a fan of the way the legal system works. I'm not interested in ruining this person's life, I just want to get a fair amount. I'd like to avoid a civil suit if possible, but given that I didn't rack up any hospital bills, I worry that I won't be able to get much out of the insurance company, and would be forced to undertake a civil suit in order to get anything beyond the cost of bike parts, etc.
So, is that pretty much how it goes, or do insurance companies sometimes pay for more than strictly tangible damages?
Again, I'm not interested in pushing the dominoes on this person. They made a pretty grotesque lapse in judgement, but I don't need the guilt of messing up their life in this way.
Helmet Head
01-08-07, 03:41 PM
What you want to push for (with at least a lawyer consult) is an out of court settlement. If what you want is truly fair and just, then it would be in their interest to just pay you and leave the jury cr@pshoot out of it.
A nudge and I'm taking appropriate payments. A deliberate hit & run and I'm filing charges and getting the most ruthless attorney I can find.
How much has this idiot messed your life up due to his "lapse in judgment"?
The one time that I was hit with witnesses and had all the information the insurance company basically told me this is what we are willing to pay. As in your case I only had bike damage no physical damage. I would first talk to the drivers insurance and see what they say, depending on what they are willing to pay go from there if you need more compensation for parts.
Big_knob
01-08-07, 03:44 PM
You need a lawyer.
Lawyers don't want anypart of collision cases without big injury. cuts ,bruises & booboo's is not big injury.
Could get a consultation though.
You'll have to get a lawyer to push the issue with the ins. co., because by yourself they will ignore you. Call a few lawyers in your area.
Big_knob
01-08-07, 03:55 PM
You'll have to get a lawyer to push the issue with the ins. co., because by yourself they will ignore you. Call a few lawyers in your area.
NOt neccessarily, they may try to give a "jew" settlement or something of the nature & try procrastination. they WILL pay if court judgement says to do so.
Big_knob
01-08-07, 03:57 PM
Just don't be snaked by the claim adjusters.
Just don't be snaked by the claim adjusters.
Concur.
List all of your incidental and other expenses associated with the incident, plus lost wages, etc. Have that thumb checked out by a medical professional. Customary pain-and-suffering compensation runs about 3 times actual medical payments for nonpermanent injuries.
they WILL pay if court judgement says to do so.
That's why I said "call a lawyer". :rolleyes:
CrosseyedCrickt
01-08-07, 04:16 PM
so if I come to your house and kick your ass all you'll want in return is to be compensated for the cost of a few bandaids and cottonballs to stop the nosebleed?
seriously man, if you let him get away with it, then he'll have no reason to NOT do it again to someone else
Big_knob
01-08-07, 04:18 PM
That's why I said "call a lawyer". :rolleyes:
Whatever:rolleyes:
NOt neccessarily, they may try to give a "jew" settlement or something of the nature & try procrastination. they WILL pay if court judgement says to do so.
I find this somewhat offensive. Antisemitism, even in quotation marks, is not cool.
bikingshearer
01-08-07, 04:28 PM
A few thoughts here.
1) Without significant medical bills, you are probably going to have a hard time getting a lawyer interested in this case. It simply does not make economic sense to the lawyer to take it on a contigency fee basis and it does not make ecnomic sense for you to hire one on an hourly fee basis.
2) That does not mean your are SOL. Does your state have small claims courts, ones where the parties represent themselves (like on People's Court) and there is a cap on the amount of damages that can be awarded? It probably does, but I am not sure about Minnesota. I also do not know about the dollar upper limit there - somewhere in the general neighborhood is $5,000, I believe. Find out. Unless your damages are significantly higher than the small claims maximum, suing in small claims court is your ultimate leverage, because neither you nor the driving menace will be able to have a lawyer present, thus evening the playing field. For help with figuring out small claims court, call your local courthouse and ask if there is a public law library there. (There's a good chance there is.) Call them and ask if they have any books to guide you through the small claims court process. Then, go read it. If this doesn't pan out, go to you rlocal regular library and ask the reference librarian for help finding books on small claims courts in Minnesota. (Reference librarians live to help people find stuff like this.) Then read whe he/she finds for you. Do this before you settle with the insurance company, and do it real soon. Your best chance of not having to litigate is to know how to do it and thereby sound like you cannot be intimidated by an insurance adjuster trying to low-ball you.
Oh, if Minnesota law is like California law, I do not believe there is no reason why "pain and suffering" cannot be compensated in a negotiated settlement.
3) Do not agree to a settlement figure from the insurance company until you are certain there will not be any future medical costs from this incident. (It is not an "accident," and don't let them call it an accident. By running away in voiolation of the law, this clod turned this into an intentional bad act.) Once you agree to settle and have signed a release, you cannot revisit the settlement unless you can show that the other side committed fraud in inducing you into settling, and even then you may not be able to.
If your thumb or your rib has not healed, don't settle yet - there may future surgery involved, and this @$$hole should bear the cost. My following suggestion concerning negotiating with the insurance company once you are certain you will not have significant future medical costs.
In any event, my best guesstimate of the minimum of what you should settle for is double your total "hard" damages. In other words, take the cost to repair/replace your bike, any medical costs incurred, any pay lost at work because of the incident, and any other out-of-pockets you have paid or will have to pay because of the incident, and multiply it by two to cover the pain and suffering. For negotiating purposes, start at the higher of (1) the maximum you can get in small claims or (2) triple your hard damages, and negotiate down from there. Don't be afraid to remind the insurer that the guy committed a hit-and-run. And don't be intimidated into going below your "drop dead" price. If you are not prepared to walk away from a bad deal and take them to court, they will roll you up like a rug.
4) Please, please, please stop worrying about "ruining" this guy's life. He does not deserve your concern. He hit you, and then he ran away from his responsibilities - responsibilities that anyone who ever took a driving test knows about. He committed a crime, a crime that hurt you. Whatever happens to this guy, financially or criminally (I only wish), he did it to himself - you did not do it to him. He did not show you any concern, and I can assure you that the insurance company could not care less about you beyond trying to buy you off as cheaply as possible. This is not being mean-spirited, it is simply being realistic. You absolutely have to look out for your own welfare here, because Lord knows no one on the other side will do so.
Good luck with this. I am glad you did not suffer worse loss than you have. And do not let this guy off the hook too cheaply.
Big_knob
01-08-07, 04:30 PM
I find this somewhat offensive. Antisemitism, even in quotation marks, is not cool.
Well pard me your hainous. I have been using the term for years & not about to change my terminology for anything or anyone.
Used to be a car dealership around here called C Louie Jew & was forced to change name. but i am a private self sufficient enterprise......
Besides they are nothing but words.
that is the the beauty of the "freeworld".:)
Keith99
01-08-07, 04:36 PM
A few thoughts here.
Oh, if Minnesota law is like California law, I do not believe there is no reason why "pain and suffering" cannot be compensated in a negotiated settlement.
3) Do not agree to a settlement figure from the insurance company until you are certain there will not be any future medical costs from this incident. (It is not an "accident," and don't let them call it an accident. By running away in voiolation of the law, this clod turned this into an intentional bad act.) Once you agree to settle and have signed a release, you cannot revisit the settlement unless you can show that the other side committed fraud in inducing you into settling, and even then you may not be able to.
Quite right a settlement can be pretty much whatever the parties agree to.
As to it not being an accident, that is why the insurance company is not on the hook for 'pain and suffering'. At least in California they are not only not required they are NOT ALLOWED to cover punative damages, which is what you will be trying for under the idea that this was an intentional act.
ink1373
01-08-07, 04:55 PM
I'm definitely interested in getting my thumb checked out (possibly knees, too. they've been unhappy.), but I'm pretty scared about getting stuck with the bill somehow. Will the insurance company pay for future medical expenses, or do I have to make the blind leap and hope they'll cover it after the doctor visit?
I'm definitely interested in getting my thumb checked out (possibly knees, too. they've been unhappy.), but I'm pretty scared about getting stuck with the bill somehow. Will the insurance company pay for future medical expenses, or do I have to make the blind leap and hope they'll cover it after the doctor visit?
Is there any kind of place in your community where people without much money can get some basic legal advice? The longer you wait after the accident to get injuries checked out you are likely to get more static from the insurance company. It seems like you have as good a case here as you could ask, especially since the injury to your thumb has some impact on your work (bike mech, right?). I would get it looked at, as it would suck if you end up with permanent injuries due to a hit and run and miss your chance to have them taken care of.
trackhub
01-08-07, 05:21 PM
My own take: One more time, you need a lawyer. You cannot do this alone, without a working knowledge of the law and legal system.
Do some searching, and find a attorney in your area who is also a cyclist.
I don't how these things are handled in MN, but in Massachusetts, leaving the scene of an accident that involves a personal injury, to even the slightest degree, (even if it's a scraped elbow) is a criminal motor vehicle violation.
As others have already advised though, be cautious. This motorist will also have an attorney.
kalliergo
01-08-07, 05:29 PM
I find this somewhat offensive. Antisemitism, even in quotation marks, is not cool.
I find it more than "somewhat" offensive. It's not just uncool, it's absolutely unacceptable.
Wogsterca
01-08-07, 06:01 PM
I'm definitely interested in getting my thumb checked out (possibly knees, too. they've been unhappy.), but I'm pretty scared about getting stuck with the bill somehow. Will the insurance company pay for future medical expenses, or do I have to make the blind leap and hope they'll cover it after the doctor visit?
You need to speak to a legal professional, preferably someone who deals with insurance cases, even if it means you need to pay for an hour of the lawyers time. It may seem to be an unneeded expense, but a good lawyer will get you a better settlement then you could ever hope to on your own.
Well pard me your hainous. I have been using the term for years & not about to change my terminology for anything or anyone.
Used to be a car dealership around here called C Louie Jew & was forced to change name. but i am a private self sufficient enterprise......
Besides they are nothing but words.
that is the the beauty of the "freeworld".:)
Well you certainly have earned your name. I'd have just pointed it out, but since you insist on defending it, I guess we'll have to see whether or not the owners of this particular freedom share your view.
bikingshearer
01-08-07, 06:06 PM
Quite right a settlement can be pretty much whatever the parties agree to.
As to it not being an accident, that is why the insurance company is not on the hook for 'pain and suffering'. At least in California they are not only not required they are NOT ALLOWED to cover punative damages, which is what you will be trying for under the idea that this was an intentional act.
Keith, you are mixing two separate concepts together. You are correct that one cannot insure against - and insurance companies cannot and will not pay for - punitive damages, i.e., payments ordered to punish the wrongdoer for especially heinous intentional acts (the standard in California is "malicious, oppressive or fraudulent" conduct).
That is not the same as "pain and suffering," which can and does result from purely negligent acts. Juries are asked to put dollar amounts on "pain and suffering" in negligence cases every day. And if there is an award for pain and suffering in an event for which insurance coverage applies -say, for example, in a car crash - the insurance compamy will have to pay those damages (up to the limits of the policy).
In the OP's case, I guess there is technically both negligence - the driver hitting him in the first place - for which insurance coverage applies and an intentional tort - leaving the scene of the accident - for which insurance coverage would not apply. But most, if not all, of the harm suffered by the OP is due to the negligence, i.e. the collision, not due ot the guy driving away. That is why the insurance company is involved at all - if they thought that the OP's damages were the result solely of intentional bad acts by the driver, they likely would have denioed coveage and left the driver on his own and the OP trying to collect from him directly.
Ok, the knob is gone. Possibly for good.
To ink1373: I handled insurance claims for 10 years, but I am no longer in that business. If you would like to hear the adjuster's side, I'm happy to share here, or by PM or email.
Cheers,
Brian
I'm definitely interested in getting my thumb checked out (possibly knees, too. they've been unhappy.), but I'm pretty scared about getting stuck with the bill somehow. Will the insurance company pay for future medical expenses, or do I have to make the blind leap and hope they'll cover it after the doctor visit?
MN is a PIP state. If you own and insure your own car, you need to file the claim with your insurance company. If you don't, then make the claim against the other company.
I (not an attorney) suggest you at least hear what the claim adjuster has to offer. A lawyer, if involved, could take 1/3 or more of the total. If you don't like what you hear, then get a lawyer. In dealing with the adjuster, don't volunteer anything. Answer questions directly without embelishment or further answers. Consider what you paid for any of this advice however.
Generally, if the insurance company is reputable, you should be able to get a fair offer, including pain and suffering.
kalliergo
01-08-07, 07:34 PM
Ok, the knob is gone. Possibly for good.
Good. Thanks to the moderator(s) for taking a stand against such outrageous slurs.
Good advice from Dogboy. I wish I had read the whole thread, rather than just coming in to ban someone twice.
kalliergo
01-08-07, 07:48 PM
The OP's uncertainty about how to proceed, and his obvious need for assistance in getting appropriate medical care, compensation, etc., just point to the need for cycling organizations to become active in the areas that would most help cyclists: legal assistance and representation.
Relatively few cyclists have the resources or knowledge needed to defend themselves, their rights, and their interests in the courts. By banding together and pooling resources, we could all be much safer and stronger.
It would be a lot more useful and effective than lobbying for separate facilities, but that's what slmost all bike groups seem obsessed with.
ink1373
01-08-07, 07:55 PM
On the upside, I've been getting some really helpful advice in this thread and via PMs, and I'm feeling MUCH more confident about dealing with the insurance company.
CrosseyedCrickt
01-08-07, 08:16 PM
Good advice from Dogboy. I wish I had read the whole thread, rather than just coming in to ban someone twice.
I'm suprised I haven't been banned yet :D
ink1373 - I can't remember if I know you in real life or not, but we put up an advocacy section on www.mplsbikelove.com recently - you might want to cross post there and see if there are people with more local advice/experience.
I hope you're compensated fairly and heal fast.
I'm suprised I haven't been banned yet :D
I've been busy. :)
HereNT, thanks for posting that link for him. We always talk about bikeforums as a community, and this is what we like to see - cyclists helping each other. :beer:
Carusoswi
01-09-07, 05:52 AM
NOt neccessarily, they may try to give a "jew" settlement or something of the nature & try procrastination. they WILL pay if court judgement says to do so.
Thanks for introducing an absolutely uncalled for ethnocentric element to this otherwise interesting thread.
Perhaps you might want to explain to us what a "JEW" settlement entails. On the other hand, perhaps we would be better served not to hear your explanation.
Caruso
Thanks for introducing an absolutely uncalled for ethnocentric element to this otherwise interesting thread.
Perhaps you might want to explain to us what a "JEW" settlement entails. On the other hand, perhaps we would be better served not to hear your explanation.
Caruso
Seeing as how he's been banned, you're not likely to get a response from him. ;)
Carusoswi
01-09-07, 05:57 AM
[QUOTE=Big_knob]Well pard me your hainous. I have been using the term for years & not about to change my terminology for anything or anyone./QUOTE]
Then, be prepared to be cited for antisemitism. Your use of the term is racist. I'm guessing that your skin and your skull are sufficiently thick to withstand the barrage.
Caruso
Carusoswi
01-09-07, 06:01 AM
Seeing as how he's been banned, you're not likely to get a response from him. ;)
I don't need a reply - just stating my opinion of his post. Obviously I'm out of it here - how do you determine that he has been banned?
Caruso
I don't need a reply - just stating my opinion of his post. Obviously I'm out of it here - how do you determine that he has been banned?
Caruso
I know, because I was the one that banned him. You'll have to rely on the word "Banned" below his name. :)
San Rensho
01-09-07, 07:54 AM
Yes, I have a police report, "accident" report, and the driver was insured, and I have their policy information.
The main thing is that I'm not a fan of the way the legal system works. I'm not interested in ruining this person's life, I just want to get a fair amount. I'd like to avoid a civil suit if possible, but given that I didn't rack up any hospital bills, I worry that I won't be able to get much out of the insurance company, and would be forced to undertake a civil suit in order to get anything beyond the cost of bike parts, etc.
So, is that pretty much how it goes, or do insurance companies sometimes pay for more than strictly tangible damages?
Again, I'm not interested in pushing the dominoes on this person. They made a pretty grotesque lapse in judgement, but I don't need the guilt of messing up their life in this way.
Why don't you want to ruin this person's life? He tried to kill you. I would press as hard as possible for criminal charges. If not for you, then for the safety of other cyclists because if this guy thinks he can get away with it, he will do it again.
As far as a civil suit goes, In most states you are entitiled to damages for property damage, medical bills past and future, all lost wages and impairment of future earning capacity, damages for permananent impairment (scarring, partial loss of use of thumb if applicable), pain and suffereing.
Most important in your case, you are entitled to punitive damages (monetary) for intentional battery. Thats why its so important to go after him through the state attorney's office. If you can get a criminal conviction for battery, his insurance co. will pony up very quickly.
Get a lawyer.
Ok, the knob is gone. Possibly for good.
Cheers,
Brian
:beer:
Nice to know this forum is taken care of so well.
closetbiker
01-09-07, 09:32 AM
Wouldn't a witness be of large importance here?
I know there can be a bit of re-constructing of what possibly happened and the statements of each party go a long way, but more often than not, a witness is very important.
I know if I'm involved in a collision, the first thing I look for is a witness.
Ink:
You need to be very careful how you proceed in this matter. This was touched on by an earlier post, but should be clearly spelled out. If you insist the actions of the driver were intentional in hitting you, there is no insurance coverage, unless Minn. is completely wacko. In every state I am aware of, it is illegal to insure against intentional acts. The point being, if we can buy insurance against anything we do, what is to stop us from doing bad acts intentionally?
You have the police report, fine. Did the insurance company ask to take your statement yet? If they do (and they will once you get their attention) make it conditional on you receiving a copy of your statement, AND the statement they inevitably took from their insured. If you don't have a copy of the driver's statement, you don't know what you are dealing with. The driver probably told the adjuster that s/he didn't see you and thought you were okay, so drove off. Or, the insurance company may have already informed the driver that they are not providing coverage because it was an intentional act. They may provide a defense to the driver, but no payment for any damages due to you.
Keep in mind, you have no obligation to deal with the insurance company directly. The incident took place between you and the driver.
It's great that you don't want to ruin the driver's life because of a bad lapse in judgment. Don't ruin your life too. See if Minn. or your local county government has an attorney referral service. Here in California, you can get referred to an attorney for a very nominal fee. It used to be $25.00 for the first hour, and that money was paid back to the referral service to cover their costs. That way you can at least get specific, local information based on your individual fact situation.
Send me a PM and I will respond with my telephone number if you would like to talk further.
Good luck.
Michael
Perhaps you might want to explain to us what a "JEW" settlement entails.
I guess it's the kosher equivalent of "they'll Presbyterian ya to death"? :rolleyes: Eh, whaddaya going to do - this kind of stuff has been around forever. You just pick the group you don't like (or want to stereotype) and have at them.
Unfortunate.
galen_52657
01-09-07, 12:07 PM
Why don't you want to ruin this person's life? He tried to kill you. I would press as hard as possible for criminal charges. If not for you, then for the safety of other cyclists because if this guy thinks he can get away with it, he will do it again.
As far as a civil suit goes, In most states you are entitiled to damages for property damage, medical bills past and future, all lost wages and impairment of future earning capacity, damages for permananent impairment (scarring, partial loss of use of thumb if applicable), pain and suffereing.
Most important in your case, you are entitled to punitive damages (monetary) for intentional battery. Thats why its so important to go after him through the state attorney's office. If you can get a criminal conviction for battery, his insurance co. will pony up very quickly.
Get a lawyer.
+1000
You should be pressing criminal charges against this wacko. I don't understand people that won't stand up for themselves.
royalflash
01-09-07, 02:41 PM
+1000
You should be pressing criminal charges against this wacko. I don't understand people that won't stand up for themselves.
+ (insert big number here)
if someone deliberately hits me and drives away I can assure you I would do everything I could to make them pay
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